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The way way marines dodge bullets is to use all their enhanced senses to work out where their opponent is aiming and then make sure they arent there when the trigger is pulled.

Same theory applies to deflecting/parrying bullets.

It's all about the moments before the trigger is pulled.

There are many Inquisitors who are like Karamazov... they do the "book work" and the "mind work", but they rely on their retinue to do all the "grunt work". Perhaps, in their younger days, as Interrogators and such, they were more combat-capable, but we're not usually shown that. What we are shown is that the only truly identifying feature of an Inquisitor is an intelligent mind and a powerful force of will.

I would not go so far as to say that the average Inquisitor is the combat equal of the average Sister of Battle, in ranged or melee combat. I don't think they would be push-overs, necessarily, but I don't think they have a serious chance of beating one.

 Mythantor wrote:
The way way marines dodge bullets is to use all their enhanced senses to work out where their opponent is aiming and then make sure they arent there when the trigger is pulled.

Same theory applies to deflecting/parrying bullets.

It's all about the moments before the trigger is pulled.

Please prove this statement.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 da001 wrote:

I think the average inquisitor is far worse of a warrior than the average, say, Sister Superior.

Which is not your average Sister.

Never said it was. I was just pointing out that you are defending "space marines are far better" while giving examples of "humans are awesome". It is confusing.

Not all Inquisitors are fighters.

Can you name one that isn't?

Sure.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ligeia#.UrDfAvTuIuc
Also, from the Thorians Sourcebook: "There exist no set criteria in regards to physical condition for a possible candidate when being selected to join the ranks of the Inquisition. All that is required is proof of intelligence and loyalty, which are key requisites for such a choice though there is no proper method of judging these attributes until later in life. However, there may exist an extraordinary circumstance which are uncommon practices which leads to an Inquisitor choosing a boy or girl whilst they are still within their teens though this is only the case if the subject shows exceptional ability. Generally, an Inquisitor will take note of an individual if they are a free-thinking person with will power and determination as well as unflinching principles."

I have no idea where did you get the idea that all Inquisitors are brutal warriors. That is not their job. Stormtroopers, Veterans, Sisters, Comissars are elite soldiers. Inquisitor are completely different from one another. Some are warriors, others are scribes.

And they don´t train nearly as much time.

Based on?

Any single book regarding an Inquisitor, I guess. They investigate things, go talk to people, attend parties, write reports... Get a copy of Eisenhorn. Great book.

A Sister or an Astartes are always training or fighting.

Sisters also pray (So do at least some Astartes, I think), beat the gak out of themselves, and execute civilians.

For a Sister (or an Astartes) pray and self-punishement is training too, and quite an important part.

Inquisitors have lots of different tasks to do. I can think of some examples in the fluff: Inquisitor Eisenhorn is amazed at the combat skill of kasrkins,

I am pretty sure that is not actually the case. Harlon Nayl was, but Eisenhorn? Do not recall.

Trying to find the quote. I will post it here if I have time. There is a possibility I misremembered and you are right, though I still think it is not the case. The book is written in first person, we are told what Eisenhorn feels, not what Harlon feels. (I think)

Anyway: if you read Eisenhorn, then you know they do a lot more things than fighting and training. Eisenhorn says that most of his work is reading and trying to get clues. The "action" part of the life of an Inquisitor is far less important than his "inquisitive" part.

And Eisenhorn gets far, far more powerful than those Kasrkins later. He'd kill the majority of Sisters OR Marines in single combat.

In which sense? Are you talking about conjuring demons or using archeotech? As a soldier, he cannot rival Harlon Nayl or that Arbites guy. Let alone a Sister.

and Inquisitor Ligeia is a middle aged women with no combat training whatsoever.

Who?

I looked on lexicanum but could not find her.

Did you search by "Ligeia"? I did. See link above

Another one is Inquisitor Thaddeus. No page for him yet, only a page title : http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Thaddeus_(Inquisitor)#.UrDnZ_TuIuc

Anything you say about Inquisitors regarding martial skill can instantly be applied to Sisters, Comissars, Veterans and Stormtroopers

Potentially, yes.

On average? I doubt it.

This also ignores that an inquisitor in the game can't get this ability without the harsh training and sheer kickass to do so.

And yet, Eisenhorn killed a Space Marine in close combat.

Eisenhorn also fought a Daemonhost that blew up a Titan.

Point?

With magic. Doesn´t count if we are talking about combat prowess. And Praxedes killed a Hive Tyrant. And Honsou lost an arm against a single human with a sword in a duel.

Anyway... what is your point? Humans can be incredible powerful in the setting. We know that. Astartes can be awesome too? Yeah. Can a human defeat a Primarch? It happened two times. Can a Ork kill the Emperor? One nearly did. The setting is open, everything is possible.

I don´t get your reasoning.

I am not sure how Inquisitors being more and less powerful than Sisters on average compensate the many sources already quoted stating that the Sisters are really close to Marines.

Edit: lots of typos

 Void__Dragon wrote:

and Inquisitor Ligeia is a middle aged women with no combat training whatsoever.

Who?

I looked on lexicanum but could not find her.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Briseis_Ligeia#.UrDodmRDtLp

She was from those crappy Grey Knight books by Ben Counter. Her special psychic power was reading really fast.

 Psienesis wrote:
There are many Inquisitors who are like Karamazov... they do the "book work" and the "mind work", but they rely on their retinue to do all the "grunt work". Perhaps, in their younger days, as Interrogators and such, they were more combat-capable, but we're not usually shown that. What we are shown is that the only truly identifying feature of an Inquisitor is an intelligent mind and a powerful force of will.

I would not go so far as to say that the average Inquisitor is the combat equal of the average Sister of Battle, in ranged or melee combat. I don't think they would be push-overs, necessarily, but I don't think they have a serious chance of beating one.

Actually every single Inquisitor I have seen, be it Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Jarlsdottyr, Quixos, Voke, Coteaz, Valeria, Vail, or whoever has been to varying extents and in varying ways a very formidable combatant. Some, like Eisenhorn, Ravenor, Hector Rex, or Solomon are formidable in combat.

Even Karamazov is only held back by extreme age, he used to be a tuff gai.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
I mean, sure, I guess Karamozov (sp?) off his amazing throne of masculinity would lose to your average Sister, but he's an old ass man who can barely walk.

And there we have it, Inquisitors can be old or otherwise physically ineffective. Meanwhile, Sisters either die young, get a juveant treatment or join a non-militant Order. That alone shows that not all Inquisitors could beat an SoB in combat. See, the point I'm making here is that an advantage of the Sisters is their consistency. All of them are well trained soldiers who started very young and have a daily training regime, and not all Inquisitors are in a state where they can compete with that. Likely because the primary job of an Inquisitor isn't just to combat things, but to study and understand too, so variation is permitted. Meanwhile, the Sisters have a more singular purpose, being good at fighting things.

The Eisenhorn series is, indeed, written from the point of view of Gregor... they are, in fact, his memoirs (as he makes comments at places that state things like "I can write this now, in this personal memoir, but at the time, it was a death sentence to anyone to reveal that the governor was dead" or some similar line in regards to the tragedy on Thracia Prime.)

The Ravenor series is more third-person, though is limited in that regard... or it may be that Ravenor is reading people's minds and including that content in his own memoirs.

(Ignore this, double post)

 Troike wrote:

And there we have it, Inquisitors can be old or otherwise physically ineffective. Meanwhile, Sisters either die young, get a juveant treatment or join a non-militant Order. That alone shows that not all Inquisitors could beat an SoB in combat.

A. I never said that.
B. Inquisitors get juvenat treatments.
C. Sisters of Battle age too, that they "join a non-militant Order" is very convenient and trying to tilt the averages by pointing out that decrepit Inquisitors are still Inquisitors yet decrepit Sisters of Battle are no longer Sisters of Battle reeks of exploiting a loophole much like the one justifying the Sister of Battle's very existence.

See, the point I'm making here is that an advantage of the Sisters is their consistency. All of them are well trained soldiers who started very young and have a daily training regime, and not all Inquisitors are in a state where they can compete with that.

We have an example of a very old guy, any more?

And even that "very old guy" has the vast bulk of the Sisters' numbers in combat were he permitted his chair, which is standard equipment.

Likely because the primary job of an Inquisitor isn't just to combat things, but to study and understand too, so variation is permitted. Meanwhile, the Sisters have a more singular purpose, being good at fighting things.

Don't Sisters also run the day to day operations of their local Imperial brainwashing factori- I mean temples as well? Though that might be handled by another Ordo.

Regardless, this mummer's farce has already run its course.

I don't dispute that a Sister of Battle could potentially achieve the level of martial prowess and speed as an Inquisitor with the "Deflect Shot" talent might, only that all Sisters would have such prowess.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
The Eisenhorn series is, indeed, written from the point of view of Gregor... they are, in fact, his memoirs (as he makes comments at places that state things like "I can write this now, in this personal memoir, but at the time, it was a death sentence to anyone to reveal that the governor was dead" or some similar line in regards to the tragedy on Thracia Prime.)

The Ravenor series is more third-person, though is limited in that regard... or it may be that Ravenor is reading people's minds and including that content in his own memoirs.

I doubt Ravenor was reading the minds of cool young men like Kinsky, who was demonstrably more powerful than him, or Wystan Frauka, who is a Blank. Both share a scene together, alone.

I am just saying.

I still do not see your point.

There are many sources directly stating that Sisters are really close to Marines. Yet you deny it by saying that some Inquisitors are extremely powerful too?

But then you admit that a Sister can achieve the level of martial prowess of an Inquisitor.

So Inquisitors, Sisters, Comissars (Cain dueling a Khorne Berserker and mocking at him) and many others can give Astartes a fight. And?

I doubt Ravenor was reading the minds of cool young men like Kinsky, who was demonstrably more powerful than him, or Wystan Frauka, who is a Blank. Both share a scene together, alone.

I am just saying.

Relax, Beavis, it was a joke, because there are several chapters of the Ravenor series that Gideon, himself, was not present at. The Eisenhorn series does not feature these things, as it is Gregor's own autobiography.

Ravenor, however, cannot take an SOB in hand to hand if she passes her Deny the Witch roll. If that happens, he's fethed, since he's just a lump of burned meat in a box.

And if we were not permitting psychic powers in the first place, then he's really fethed.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Mythantor wrote:
The way way marines dodge bullets is to use all their enhanced senses to work out where their opponent is aiming and then make sure they arent there when the trigger is pulled.

Same theory applies to deflecting/parrying bullets.

It's all about the moments before the trigger is pulled.

Please prove this statement.

Physics. It's just a physical impossibility.
The one anecdote you present was by someone who was possessed by a demon. Demons don't follow the rules of physics and can either ignore them or maybe his perception of time allowed him to block the shots. Either way, it's simply physically impossible for a Marine to block a bolter round after it is fired. The amount of energy it would take to move a human limb fast enough would be absurd.

 da001 wrote:

There are many sources directly stating that Sisters are really close to Marines.

There are two. One of which was one of the "Reasons to buy this army" segments, IIRC.

Yet you deny it by saying that some Inquisitors are extremely powerful too?

I was mostly responding to Melissia's insistence that Space Marine physical superiority doesn't mean that much compared to the Sisters, I responded in ways it did, which, as usual, went over Dakka's collective Hive Mind.

But I do believe that generally Marines are better.

But then you admit that a Sister can achieve the level of martial prowess of an Inquisitor.

"Can" =/= "Usually does".

So Inquisitors, Sisters, Comissars (Cain dueling a Khorne Berserker and mocking at him) and many others can give Astartes a fight. And?

For the most part, no, they usually can't.

I refuse to comment on Ciaphas Cain on the grounds that it sucks and I personally dislike it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:

Physics. It's just a physical impossibility.

Obliterators: Physically possible.
Dodging a bullet: Physically impossible.

Got you.

The one anecdote you present was by someone who was possessed by a demon.

Haha, what?

And who was this daemon-possessed individual I apparently brought up?

The amount of energy it would take to move a human limb fast enough would be absurd.

Believe me, neither I nor the creators of 40k care.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A. I never said that.

But you acknowledged Karamazov exists, and his existence demonstrates the existence of Inquisitors who couldn't best an SoB in combat.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
B. Inquisitors get juvenat treatments.

And yet, some can apparently choose not to, and are allowed to remain elderly. It's apparently not a requirement for them to physically effective in combat, whilst for SoBs it would be. Granted, I have just recalled some 2E artwork depicting an elderly SoB. But she was swinging a power maul in said artwork, so it would seem that she was still quite combat effective.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
C. Sisters of Battle age too, that they "join a non-militant Order" is very convenient and trying to tilt the averages by pointing out that decrepit Inquisitors are still Inquisitors yet decrepit Sisters of Battle are no longer Sisters of Battle reeks of exploiting a loophole

But it's a valid point. Do elderly Inquisitors ever cease being Inquisitors? They don't seem to have a way out of their profession when they're elderly, whilst Sisters have an established thing of getting a different job when they're too old forn their current one.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
We have an example of a very old guy, any more?

There's no need to provide additional examples, the old guy's existence shows that the Inquisition allows its members to be in a state where they are physically weak if they choose.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
And even that "very old guy" has the vast bulk of the Sisters' numbers in combat were he permitted his chair, which is standard equipment.

But in a fairer fight, without any specialist equipment, he would lose to a Sister.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Don't Sisters also run the day to day operations of their local Imperial brainwashing factori- I mean temples as well?

Nope, that's the Ecclesiarchy's job. An SoB might be a guard at a temple, though.

An obliterator is a demon, so that example doesn't really work since they don't follow the laws of physics.

 Psienesis wrote:


Relax, Beavis, it was a joke, because there are several chapters of the Ravenor series that Gideon, himself, was not present at. The Eisenhorn series does not feature these things, as it is Gregor's own autobiography.

Calm down, I was playing the comically serious in this case.

Ravenor, however, cannot take an SOB in hand to hand if she passes her Deny the Witch roll. If that happens, he's fethed, since he's just a lump of burned meat in a box.

He is in a case made of Wraithbone, and has shown that he can crush people by propelling his chair forward, or just fire his Psycannons.

Also, gameplay mechanics huh? I don't care how well their Deny the Witch Roll goes, when he hits them in the face with a semi, they are going to feel it.

And if we were not permitting psychic powers in the first place, then he's really fethed.

Much like the Sisters would be if I arbitrarily disallowed their powered armour and bolters.

 Musashi363 wrote:
An obliterator is a demon, so that example doesn't really work since they don't follow the laws of physics.

He listed Argal Tal as his example, then didn't remember his own example. The guy could be living under a bridge. Then he listed another demon possessed/infused unit as his other example.

Also, Dakka's "collective hive mind?" Or maybe you're just wrong?

 Musashi363 wrote:
An obliterator is a demon, so that example doesn't really work since they don't follow the laws of physics.

But a Necron Wraith does eh?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Musashi363 wrote:
An obliterator is a demon, so that example doesn't really work since they don't follow the laws of physics.

But a Necron Wraith does eh?

What does a necron wraith have to do with anything? Necrons have such a high level of technology that it can be considered magic. Once again, it has nothing to do with the impossibility of a space marine blocking or dodging bullets that have been fired.

 MWHistorian wrote:

He listed Argal Tal as his example, then didn't remember his own example. The guy could be living under a bridge. Then he listed another demon possessed/infused unit as his other example.

As amusing as your ad hominems and misplaced arrogance are, I think you need to check yourself before you wreck yourself.

Argel Tal wasn't possessed by a Daemon when he deflected bolt rounds. That occurred during the ceremony where Ingethel became a Daemon (Princess? Maybe).

Argel Tal was turned into a Daemon/Astartes hybrid by daemon Ingethel.

Try to keep up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:

What does a necron wraith have to do with anything? Necrons have such a high level of technology that it can be considered magic. Once again, it has nothing to do with the impossibility of a space marine blocking or dodging bullets that have been fired.

lol

B-but Space Marine biology is so advanced that it can also be considered magic.

I mean it was created by the greatest "mage" in the galaxy.

Not that any of your heckling is even vaguely relevant. I've already proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that even Inquisitors are capable of these feats if they are l33t enough.

Void__Dragon wrote:DEFLECT SHOT
The character uses his extremely fast reflexes to deflect incoming fire with a parry from his weapon. A character can only use deflect shot when armed with a power weapon or force weapon. If the character is hit by enemy shooting, he can try to deflect it. If he can roll under the enemyís To Hit roll on a D100, the shot is deflected and has no effect. For example, if the opposing player rolls 56 to hit, a roll of 55 or less will deflect the shot. If the deflecting character can roll 1/10th or less of the enemyís To Hit roll, the shot is rebounded straight back at the firer who is hit instead! To follow the previous example, any Deflect roll of 6 or less will rebound the shot. A character can attempt to deflect a number of shooting hits per turn equal to his Speed. A character cannot deflect a deflected shot!

Didn't you forget something?

"Deflect Shot may be used against pistol shots in close combat instead of dodging, but not against shooting hits from outside the close combat."
- the following sentence



Anyways, I'm all for using GW's Inquisitor system in such discussions! Clear rules and numbers are so much better than potentially exceptional incidents or skewed stories.

Let's see ...

Space Marine wrote:Weapon Skill: 75 (65+2d10)
Ballistic Skill: 75 (65+2d10)
Strength: 200 (185+4d10) +40 from PA
Toughness: 150 (125+4d10)
Initiative: 85 (55+3d10)
Speed: 5
Willpower: 75 (70+3d10)
Sagacity: 75 (60+3d10)
Nerve: 95 (60+3d10)
Leadership: 75 (70+2d6)

Armour: Powered Armour (AV 10) with 3 pts of Ceramite Ablative Armour on Chest/Legs/Arms
Weapon: Bolter (Dam 2d10+4)
Special Abilities: Ambidextrous, Nerves of Steel, Spit Acid

Battle Sister wrote:Weapon Skill: 60 (50+2d10)
Ballistic Skill: 65 (55+2d10)
Strength: 55 (45+2d6) +11 from PA
Toughness: 55 (50+2d10)
Initiative: 55 (45+2d10)
Speed: 4
Willpower: 60 (50+3d10)
Sagacity: 65 (55+2d6)
Nerve: 75 (70+2d10)
Leadership: 75 (65+2d10)

Armour: Powered Armour (AV 10)
Weapon: Bolter (Dam 2d10+4)
Special Abilities: Acts of Faith

The average damage of a boltgun is 15 points (5.5+5.5+4.0), which is sufficient to punch through both characters' armour (simultaneously shaving off the Marine's 3 points of additional ablative ceramite with the first shot). This means that, on average, every single shot will wound each of the combatants.

The Marine's Base Injury value is 15 (150/10), whereas the Sister has a Base Injury value of 5 (55/2). This means that an attack penetrating the armour would have to do more than 15 points of damage to inflict more than a single level of Injury to the Marine, whereas the Sister is only capable of suffering 5 points of damage before the injury is worsened by one degree.

What this means in relation to this specific case is that the Space Marine can only ever suffer a single injury from an attack - the boltgun's maximum damage is 24, but it would take at least 26 points (AV 10 plus BIV 15 = 25) to cause two levels of injury at once. The Sister on the other hand is less resilient; even though the average bolter hit would have the same effect, a lucky (or unlucky, depending on perspective) hit could cause two or even three injury levels at once.

Inquisitor uses a rather lethal (or "realistic") injury model where each hit location only has five injury levels - or four, for headshots. Both the Space Marine and the Battle Sister would require the same amount of minimum hits to cripple or kill them (~4), but the Sister could be taken out much sooner if the Marine manages to land even just one or two well-placed shots (meaning, rolling above the average).
Additionally, aside from location based injury effects (which may trigger system shock or outright slay the character), both characters also have an Injury Total equal to their Toughness score, and whereas the Sister is only capable of suffering up to 55 points of cumulative damage (regardless of location), a Marine can take up to a whopping 150 points. You can literally shoot off several limbs and still have him try to fight you, Black Knight-style!

In closing, this means that the Space Marine has a clear edge over the Sister, yet the equal quality of their arms and armour would make any duel a brutal encounter that could still go either way. Needless to say, if you throw in battlefield environments, other wargear, squad tactics and the element of surprise, the results would become even less predictable. Any encounter would certainly be an interesting fight.

Note that for the above scenario I did not use Inquisitor's Recovery rules, nor did I have the Sister make use of her Acts of Faith abilities. A GM could also rule that the Sister gets a bonus to hit the Space Marine due to his size - as per RAW, a target at least 50% larger than an average human confers a +30% to-hit bonus, with smaller differences being dependent on GM fiat. Personally, I might have considered a +10% bonus (thinking that a bulky Astartes would be at least 117% the size of a human), which would bring both characters' Ballistic Skill to the same level. Not that it would change much for a duel (but it would likely play a bigger role in a battle with cover and multiple enemies).

Psienesis wrote:I can see moving your sword in such a way that it interposes itself between you and a bullet before it is fired, or as it is fired. I don't see moving your melee weapon into the path of a bullet that has already been fired.
Of course, if SM can dodge bullets, then I see no reason why a Sister could not do the same, as her faith in the God-Emperor permits her to move with such blinding speed and fury... or because the bullets simply will not dare to touch her, sheltered as she is in the hand of the Emperor.

Deflect Shot actually is a special Talent, and one that (aside from that conveniently omitted last sentence mentioned at the beginning of this post) Space Marines do not have. Interestingly, the only character in the rulebook who has it is an Inquisitor.
This also means that, in theory, any well-trained human with a certain knack for fast reaction could gain this ability, Marine or no. Not that it'd be particularly useful, given that it's no use against ranged attacks from outside CC.

Troike wrote:And yet, some can apparently choose not to, and are allowed to remain elderly. It's apparently not a requirement for them to physically effective in combat, whilst for SoBs it would be. Granted, I have just recalled some 2E artwork depicting an elderly SoB. But she was swinging a power maul in said artwork, so it would seem that she was still quite combat effective.

Veteran Sisters get juvenat treatments too, anyways. I doubt Canoness Carmina could still lead her Order from the front otherwise if she has held her position as commander for almost a century.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Much like the Sisters would be if I arbitrarily disallowed their powered armour and bolters.

Why would they do badly without power armour or bolters? They're still in peak physical condition. And zealous nutters to boot, so they'll be fighting hard.

LOL. Wow.

I'm done arguing with a 12 year old.

 Troike wrote:

But you acknowledged Karamazov exists, and his existence demonstrates the existence of Inquisitors who couldn't best an SoB in combat.

When not on his chair.

And yet, some can apparently choose not to, and are allowed to remain elderly.

You are aware that Juvenat treatment isn't perfect, correct? That it doesn't make you live forever?

It's apparently not a requirement for them to physically effective in combat, whilst for SoBs it would be. Granted, I have just recalled some 2E artwork depicting an elderly SoB. But she was swinging a power maul in said artwork, so it would seem that she was still quite combat effective.

Considering how every Inquisitor, when Juvenat has been mentioned, has used it, yeah, it probably is pretty required.

Inquisitors are not normal people. They are, in of themselves, more talented and better than just about everyone else in the Imperium. Including the Sisters. They are able to be excellent spies, tacticians, diplomats, and warriors without sacrificing any of these attributes to any great degree. They are above average in all or most respects.

But it's a valid point. Do elderly Inquisitors ever cease being Inquisitors? They don't seem to have a way out of their profession when they're elderly, whilst Sisters have an established thing of getting a different job when they're too old forn their current one.

It hasn't been said. Ravenor I believe mentions that few really get old, but even old ones like Voke are formidable personally (Granted, Voke is a psyker).

There's no need to provide additional examples, the old guy's existence shows that the Inquisition allows its members to be in a state where they are physically weak if they choose.

He doesn't get a choice, why are you being so obtuse?

And in combat, due to his equipment, he'd still wreck house against most beings in the galaxy.

But in a fairer fight, without any specialist equipment, he would lose to a Sister.

Lol.

A "fairer fight" in your view is taking away the equipment of a decrepit old man against a young soldier in power armour?

Sure.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MWHistorian wrote:
LOL. Wow.

I'm done arguing with a 12 year old.

I am sorry that you made childish insults against someone based upon your own misinformed knowledge, and was in turn shown to be wrong by the person you were insulting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Troike wrote:

Why would they do badly without power armour or bolters? They're still in peak physical condition. And zealous nutters to boot, so they'll be fighting hard.

They'll be punching Wraithbone with their bare hands (Or maybe a combat knife? Is that standard issue for a Sister?).

Dude, the only thing you proved was that you need to calm down. You are acting like a little child.

 Lynata wrote:
Didn't you forget something?

"Deflect Shot may be used against pistol shots in close combat instead of dodging, but not against shooting hits from outside the close combat."
- the following sentence

You are aware that you would need to be faster to block a bullet from up close than far away, correct?

I assume you can't do it from far away because you have no real notion of where the bullet is coming from nor can you see the rather small bullet itself.

Anyways, I'm all for using GW's Inquisitor system in such discussions! Clear rules and numbers are so much better than potentially exceptional incidents or skewed stories.

Let's see ...

Space Marine wrote:Weapon Skill: 75 (65+2d10)
Ballistic Skill: 75 (65+2d10)
Strength: 200 (185+4d10) +40 from PA
Toughness: 150 (125+4d10)
Initiative: 85 (55+3d10)
Speed: 5
Willpower: 75 (70+3d10)
Sagacity: 75 (60+3d10)
Nerve: 95 (60+3d10)
Leadership: 75 (70+2d6)

Armour: Powered Armour (AV 10) with 3 pts of Ceramite Ablative Armour on Chest/Legs/Arms
Weapon: Bolter (Dam 2d10+4)
Special Abilities: Ambidextrous, Nerves of Steel, Spit Acid

Battle Sister wrote:Weapon Skill: 60 (50+2d10)
Ballistic Skill: 65 (55+2d10)
Strength: 55 (45+2d6) +11 from PA
Toughness: 55 (50+2d10)
Initiative: 55 (45+2d10)
Speed: 4
Willpower: 60 (50+3d10)
Sagacity: 65 (55+2d6)
Nerve: 75 (70+2d10)
Leadership: 75 (65+2d10)

Armour: Powered Armour (AV 10)
Weapon: Bolter (Dam 2d10+4)
Special Abilities: Acts of Faith

The average damage of a boltgun is 15 points (5.5+5.5+4.0), which is sufficient to punch through both characters' armour (simultaneously shaving off the Marine's 3 points of additional ablative ceramite with the first shot). This means that, on average, every single shot will wound each of the combatants.

The Marine's Base Injury value is 15 (150/10), whereas the Sister has a Base Injury value of 5 (55/2). This means that an attack penetrating the armour would have to do more than 15 points of damage to inflict more than a single level of Injury to the Marine, whereas the Sister is only capable of suffering 5 points of damage before the injury is worsened by one degree.

What this means in relation to this specific case is that the Space Marine can only ever suffer a single injury from an attack - the boltgun's maximum damage is 24, but it would take at least 26 points (AV 10 plus BIV 15 = 25) to cause two levels of injury at once. The Sister on the other hand is less resilient; even though the average bolter hit would have the same effect, a lucky (or unlucky, depending on perspective) hit could cause two or even three injury levels at once.

Inquisitor uses a rather lethal (or "realistic") injury model where each hit location only has five injury levels - or four, for headshots. Both the Space Marine and the Battle Sister would require the same amount of minimum hits to cripple or kill them (~4), but the Sister could be taken out much sooner if the Marine manages to land even just one or two well-placed shots (meaning, rolling above the average).
Additionally, aside from location based injury effects (which may trigger system shock or outright slay the character), both characters also have an Injury Total equal to their Toughness score, and whereas the Sister is only capable of suffering up to 55 points of cumulative damage (regardless of location), a Marine can take up to a whopping 150 points. You can literally shoot off several limbs and still have him try to fight you, Black Knight-style!

In closing, this means that the Space Marine has a clear edge over the Sister, yet the equal quality of their arms and armour would make any duel a brutal encounter that could still go either way. Needless to say, if you throw in battlefield environments, other wargear, squad tactics and the element of surprise, the results would become even less predictable. Any encounter would certainly be an interesting fight.

Note that for the above scenario I did not use Inquisitor's Recovery rules, nor did I have the Sister make use of her Acts of Faith abilities. A GM could also rule that the Sister gets a bonus to hit the Space Marine due to his size - as per RAW, a target at least 50% larger than an average human confers a +30% to-hit bonus, with smaller differences being dependent on GM fiat. Personally, I might have considered a +10% bonus (thinking that a bulky Astartes would be at least 117% the size of a human), which would bring both characters' Ballistic Skill to the same level. Not that it would change much for a duel (but it would likely play a bigger role in a battle with cover and multiple enemies).

I don't really like to argue for or against mechanics, especially not in a system where a Space Marine throwing his bolter apparently does more damage than firing it (Is this true?),

]Deflect Shot actually is a special Talent, and one that (aside from that conveniently omitted last sentence mentioned at the beginning of this post) Space Marines do not have. Interestingly, the only character in the rulebook who has it is an Inquisitor.
This also means that, in theory, any well-trained human with a certain knack for fast reaction could gain this ability, Marine or no. Not that it'd be particularly useful, given that it's no use against ranged attacks from outside CC.

I have consistently noted that a superior human of any faction could perform the feat (As can Eldar, with even greater ease, just a fun fact).

Is there a reason a Space Marine can not get access to the Talent? You know quite a bit more about the system than I do, but from what I see the Space Marines only have a few unique talents in their pdf thing, and draw the rest for a character from the core.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Musashi363 wrote:
Dude, the only thing you proved was that you need to calm down. You are acting like a little child.

Explain to me how so.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
You are aware that Juvenat treatment isn't perfect, correct? That it doesn't make you live forever?

Right, so they're apparently kept on even when the treatments start to fail, if we're assuming that all Inquisitors take them. Therefore, we can have elderly Inquisitors , but elderly SoB get transferred out.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Inquisitors are not normal people.

Neither are Sisters! Indoctrinated from birth, trained in combat from an early age and complete and utter zeal in their cause.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
They are above average in all or most respects.

"In all or most respects", you say? So an Inquisitor who wasn't stellar in combat would still be allowed? Again, this is a key point: Inquisitors can vary in how they are, but Sisters are far more consistent.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
He doesn't get a choice

Irrelevant. He's still an active Inquisitor, which proves that physically frail Inquisitors are allowed and that not all of them could beat an SoB in combat.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
And in combat, due to his equipment, he'd still wreck house against most beings in the galaxy.

Yes, this a major advantage of Inquisitors, access to superior equipment. But take that away, and they're not necessarily too great in a fight.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
A "fairer fight" in your view is taking away the equipment of a decrepit old man against a young soldier in power armour?

I meant just taking away his chair, not any other weapon he might be able to carry.

But okay, let's take away all of their arms and armour, just a straight physical fight, no equipment-bestowed advantages. The Sister would win that one.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
They'll be punching Wraithbone with their bare hands (Or maybe a combat knife? Is that standard issue for a Sister?).

Okay, I conceed, I did miss the part where you mentioned that he's encased in wraithbone. But my point stands, even without her equipment a Sister is still quite effective in combat.

Actually, that was rude of me and it was uncalled for. I apologize.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Actually, that was rude of me and it was uncalled for. I apologize.

I accept your apology. I too apologize for any rudeness on my part.