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 tuebor wrote:

Really, I think the biggest problems, apart from terrain but 40k players have never used enough terrain, are Titans. They're so tall they have LOS to everything and multiple D weapons. Without these units there really isn't much in Escalation that's too terrible.

Agreed. Most terrain can certainly block a Shadowsword's D-weapon. But the Revenant titan is both tall enough to see over most terrain, as well as fast enough to simply move around it.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 tuebor wrote:

Really, I think the biggest problems, apart from terrain but 40k players have never used enough terrain, are Titans. They're so tall they have LOS to everything and multiple D weapons. Without these units there really isn't much in Escalation that's too terrible.

Agreed. Most terrain can certainly block a Shadowsword's D-weapon. But the Revenant titan is both tall enough to see over most terrain, as well as fast enough to simply move around it.

So kinda like flyers then?

You don't have a problem with the Revenant's height. You have a problem with the Pulsars autokilling everything they touch. Strength D can be houseruled into a more playable format.

 Therion wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 tuebor wrote:

Really, I think the biggest problems, apart from terrain but 40k players have never used enough terrain, are Titans. They're so tall they have LOS to everything and multiple D weapons. Without these units there really isn't much in Escalation that's too terrible.

Agreed. Most terrain can certainly block a Shadowsword's D-weapon. But the Revenant titan is both tall enough to see over most terrain, as well as fast enough to simply move around it.

So kinda like flyers then?

You don't have a problem with the Revenant's height. You have a problem with the Pulsars autokilling everything they touch. Strength D can be houseruled into a more playable format.

House ruling Strength D down to S10 AP1 that ignores cover saves and forces rerolls for successful inv saves seems to be alright for most people.

 skoffs wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 tuebor wrote:

Really, I think the biggest problems, apart from terrain but 40k players have never used enough terrain, are Titans. They're so tall they have LOS to everything and multiple D weapons. Without these units there really isn't much in Escalation that's too terrible.

Agreed. Most terrain can certainly block a Shadowsword's D-weapon. But the Revenant titan is both tall enough to see over most terrain, as well as fast enough to simply move around it.

So kinda like flyers then?

You don't have a problem with the Revenant's height. You have a problem with the Pulsars autokilling everything they touch. Strength D can be houseruled into a more playable format.

House ruling Strength D down to S10 AP1 that ignores cover saves and forces rerolls for successful inv saves seems to be alright for most people.

Yeah that's good. Just add armour bane and fleshbane and the ability to do more than 1 wound per hit on anything that doesn't suffer from instant death (T6-8 and EW models). D3+1 was suggested in another thread and I think it's a good number but I could live with just D3 too. Otherwise weapons that are supposed to be Titan killers can't kill monstrous creatures and some heroes at all (and would be outclassed by Gargantuan creatures), and my problem isn't with the fluff explanation, it's with the fact that you'd just try to equip your superheavies with non-D multishot weapons instead because they'd be a lot better.

Armourbane ordnance S10? That's what, 2d6 take highest + d6? You really think that's necessary? Fleshbane kinda makes sense...

I'm more concerned about the fact that it allows FNP/RP and that Nurgle Spawn can shrug it off as a single wound. But I don't have a good answer to that other than magic handwaving.

Corollax wrote:
Armourbane ordnance S10? That's what, 2d6 take highest + d6? You really think that's necessary?

It needs something because otherwise it's only the equivalent of a railgun, and barely better than a demolisher cannon. Even with armorbane a Medusa with bastion breacher shells can match it. And against things like the Stormblade (bigger template) or Stormsword (bigger template and no cover, but shorter range) it can't even attempt to compete. At STR 10 AP 1 armorbane it's a legitimate superheavy weapon and you'd have to seriously consider which gun to take.

Good point. Still doesn't fix the nurgle spawn issue, though.

TBH the best solution:

1) Reduce all D-weapon blast sizes by one template. So a Shadowsword's 5" shot becomes a 3" shot.

2) Replace pulsars and turbolasers with a single twin-linked shot instead of two separate shots.

3) Replace multiple wounds with instant death, period, for anything smaller than a gargantuan creature. No EW, no RP, nothing. Take a hit and die on a 2+, to bring them in line with vehicles.

Now D-weapons are still great against powerful single-model targets, but their small blast area makes them pretty much worthless against infantry. This makes it a difficult choice: do you take the specialized vehicle/MC killer, or do you take a generalist superheavy like the Baneblade that is weaker against those single-model targets but a lot more versatile.

I could live with that.

Its funny. I've been 2+ing my models off of the table since I started playing. So much S10 AP feth you infinite range large blast gak in the game already. Often with ignores cover for the added tactical depth.

But the moment an army that isn't Orks has to deal with that gak... outrage I tell ya!

 Therion wrote:
So kinda like flyers then?

You don't have a problem with the Revenant's height. You have a problem with the Pulsars autokilling everything they touch. Strength D can be houseruled into a more playable format.

It's a combination of its height, multiple D weapons and mobility. Out of the current SH flyers (apart from maybe FW ones, I haven't looked) only the Thunderhawk has a D weapon and it's just one shot. Combine this with the inherent mobility problems of flyers and it's not all that terrible.

That said, I do like Peregrine's proposed solutions.

It's irritating how the Eldar got fanboys writing the rules once again, yeah "Escalation" more like "Eldarification", what, are you really going to play a Stompa or a Lord of Skulls against the loldartitan that's gonna just kill them in one turn while they in turn have absolutely no chance of ever killing it?

 Rautakanki wrote:
It's irritating how the Eldar got fanboys writing the rules once again, yeah "Escalation" more like "Eldarification", what, are you really going to play a Stompa or a Lord of Skulls against the loldartitan that's gonna just kill them in one turn while they in turn have absolutely no chance of ever killing it?

They can kill it. They just need to get a weapon with High S and high RoF hope they are in range, hope they get first turn, and hope they-

...yeah that's not going to happen. It wouldn't be so bad if the Eldar Super Heavies weren't so cheap. The Rev is only 20 points more than a Lord of Skulls, and it is way more cost effective point for point :/

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Rautakanki wrote:
It's irritating how the Eldar got fanboys writing the rules once again, yeah "Escalation" more like "Eldarification", what, are you really going to play a Stompa or a Lord of Skulls against the loldartitan that's gonna just kill them in one turn while they in turn have absolutely no chance of ever killing it?

They can kill it. They just need to get a weapon with High S and high RoF hope they are in range, hope they get first turn, and hope they-

...yeah that's not going to happen. It wouldn't be so bad if the Eldar Super Heavies were so cheap. The Rev is only 20 points more than a Lord of Skulls, and it is way more cost effective point for point :/

The Rev could do with being a good 200+ points more costly.

 Rautakanki wrote:
It's irritating how the Eldar got fanboys writing the rules once again, yeah "Escalation" more like "Eldarification", what, are you really going to play a Stompa or a Lord of Skulls against the loldartitan that's gonna just kill them in one turn while they in turn have absolutely no chance of ever killing it?

When D doesn't use the D table there's nothing wrong with any of the Eldar vehicles. Honestly I've no idea where you're coming from with that crap. I guess you're assuming that the only superheavies would be the ones in "Escalation" and have missed the Lords of War PDF by Forgeworld completely. Frankly, after the strength D adjustment, the good thing about the Eldar vehicles is the Titan Holo-Fields and mobility, which is the exact same thing that can be said of stuff like Wave Serpents. A Warhound will then have heavier firepower than a Revenant, for 200 points less. Likewise, some of the Ork stuff only cost barely over 400 points, come with strength D, and can be nonstop repaired from within. And finally, if a Revenant is armed with the equivalent of four juiced up Demolisher cannons it doesn't even have particularly good firepower for 900 points. One pie plate every 225 points? One hull point per 100 points? Outrageous!

I need to pick this apart as Doomsaying where it isn't needed, sorry.

 Selym wrote:
While I agree with the assertion that an idea need not be chucked just because of a few units (Beihnblaades are okay), there is a serious problem in the form of Str D weaponry.
It's an auto-win against armies that do not get Str D, and there are quite a lot of Str D superheavies around.

The flying circus cares not for your Str D superheavies, nor do Drop Pod armies. More will come around when the meta shifts as well.

 Selym wrote:

Eldar have the Revenant, a SH that puts SH's to shame, some parts of IOM and the CSM get Warhounds and Reavers, both of which can take lots of Str D...
Unless you know about these SH before the game and tailor your list to them, you'll almost never win, despite the +1 Vp per 3 HP's damage.

The Eldar Revenant also has terrible weaknesses. Like being able to be one-shot off the table Turn 1 and being AV 10 in the rear to allow Storm Bolter and Bolter spam to kill one(happened to me once). There is no difference in power level of the meta to tailoring to accept these than tailoring to deal with flyer spam or deathstars. These are hard counters to Deathstars, Flyers and FMCs are Hard Counters to Superheavies, and TAC lists with heavy AA counter Flyer/FMCs....see how this works?

 Selym wrote:

When it comes to an unexpected character, that's a much easier concept to accept, because you can always prep a few bad boys to murderize it (Lascannons, Flying MC's).
Escalation has basically done what Apoc is for, which is to disregard all balance, and let you pay to win (more than usual).

Just my opinion perhaps, but disregard all balance and break everybody is a better option than the current 'balance' present in the competitive world. Name one army that can't compete now in the current environment? All are viable suddenly. I love it.

 Rautakanki wrote:
It's irritating how the Eldar got fanboys writing the rules once again, yeah "Escalation" more like "Eldarification", what, are you really going to play a Stompa or a Lord of Skulls against the loldartitan that's gonna just kill them in one turn while they in turn have absolutely no chance of ever killing it?

Those grapes are sour!

Therion wrote:When D doesn't use the D table

Yeah you can house rule anything but the loldar titan dicking any land based SH over with D is RAW. This is how GW saw it - "we love the Eldar, so they get the best gak once again".

Gangrel767 wrote:Those grapes are sour!

Sure are especially when it's all grapes. Are you saying I'm wrong?

 Rautakanki wrote:

Gangrel767 wrote:Those grapes are sour!

Sure are especially when it's all grapes. Are you saying I'm wrong?

Not at all. I am an Eldar player, but I find it extremely strange that the Revenant is the only Titan in the book. Now with the Forge World FAQ that is less meaningful, but I thought it a poor choice. There are plenty of Eldar Super Heavy Tanks they could have thrown in. The more and more I go through the releases of the last few weeks the more it smells of money grab, and that just sucks.