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Yeah, she is free to do so. And we are free to discuss about it too .
I am not being aggressive or rude (well, at least I hope I am not), I am just discussing this lightly.

I never accused you as such but you're right. However, opinion is a hard thing to debate with people since it doesn't rely much on facts.

Also, SisterSydney, the Imperium doesn't survive because it's effective in it's own way. It survives because it's too big to fall in a single day, so to peak.

Yeah, I feel more like I am chatting than debating .

I feel like we are chatting, indeed. Nothing too serious.

I think the ultimate despair of being part of such a nightmarish military is the perfect breeding ground for a story's hero, but that's just me.

True. But the nice thing about the Imperial Guard is that you can have that "10,000,000 casualties crossing no man's land? I call that a good day" regiment if you want. DKoK and the Valhallans are good for that.

Of course, it's a huge setting. If it is in someone's headcanon it's probably in the galaxy somewhere.

Also, a lot of treadheads will hate me for it, but I consider the Guard tanks to be generally poor. Poor design in general aside, I guess the blueprints are OK... But they are designed to be massproduced and commonly built with subpar skills and materials.

MORE men! MORE tanks! I don't care if that Fire Prism blows up a Leman Russ with every shot while moving so fast so our men's eyes can't keep up with it, much less the guns, but we must get MORE tanks into the field!

/headcanon

 Ashiraya wrote:
I think the ultimate despair of being part of such a nightmarish military is the perfect breeding ground for a story's hero, but that's just me.

Well, if a normal human have absolutely no chance of accomplishing anything noteworthy, how can they distinguish themselves for the thousand of other normal humans sent to the slaughter ?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I think the ultimate despair of being part of such a nightmarish military is the perfect breeding ground for a story's hero, but that's just me.

Well, if a normal human have absolutely no chance of accomplishing anything noteworthy, how can they distinguish themselves for the thousand of other normal humans sent to the slaughter ?

Because those extremely few but significant people can still accomplish things.

That Guardsmen do not run around slaughtering everything by the dozen like in the Bobtheheroverse ( ) does not mean that they are incapable of anything at all. It's just that when a Guardsman manages to do something special, it quickly becomes very special indeed.

You know, I always saw Rhinos like that. Not to sound like I'm trying to get back at your favorite faction but they're cheap vehicles that can be easily, easily mass produced and made out of subpar materials. The only reason they don't blow up like chumps is because their users are usually the most competent troops there is. I'm sure that during the great crusade and heresy would have seen fields of knocked out Imperial Army Rhinos and Predators. And, like the Sherman, the Army commanders didn't give a rats behind about it since that Rhino has been replaced 10 times over.

It's weird what the Imperium decides to stop making en masse, tbh. You'd think the Rhino would be cheap and plentiful as dirt.

What!

No, I never said that >:c

 TheCustomLime wrote:
You know, I always saw Rhinos like that. Not to sound like I'm trying to get back at your favorite faction but they're cheap vehicles that can be easily, easily mass produced and made out of subpar materials. The only reason they don't blow up like chumps is because their users are usually the most competent troops there is. I'm sure that during the great crusade and heresy would have seen fields of knocked out Imperial Army Rhinos and Predators. And, like the Sherman, the Army commanders didn't give a rats behind about it since that Rhino has been replaced 10 times over.

It's weird what the Imperium decides to stop making en masse, tbh. You'd think the Rhino would be cheap and plentiful as dirt.

Huh, my headcanon says it's right the other way around (Which is why GK, Inquisitors, SM etc use it instead of Chimeras)

 Bobthehero wrote:
What!

No, I never said that >:c

Shhh, don't spoil the strawman.

Heh, well, I am one of those people who think that the 40k TT game does reflect the fluff to one degree or another. Though Space Marines could use a buff.

You know, I wouldn't actually mind having the Leman Russ be a total piece of cheap trash if it meant I could have more of them on the TT. Just give the Guard a good tank and I'd be happy as a clam. After all, a zerg rush of a Horde of tanks looks awesome. Certainly fit with the way they look.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Heh, well, I am one of those people who think that the 40k TT game does reflect the fluff to one degree or another. Though Space Marines could use a buff.

You know, I wouldn't actually mind having the Leman Russ be a total piece of cheap trash if it meant I could have more of them on the TT. Just give the Guard a good tank and I'd be happy as a clam. After all, a zerg rush of a Horde of tanks looks awesome. Certainly fit with the way they look.

I am one of the people who think that not only is the TT game an absurd arcade version of the fluff where everyone is supposed to be able to have armies that will almost never need to be more than 50% or so larger than the opponent's, and where both are supposed to be able to just put down two armies and blast themselves some kills. I am also firmly of the belief that it is impossible to represent the fluff accurately in the game without making it complicated enough to be unplayable.

I guess I could just sit and modify RT, but that too has its limits.

For me, I personally enjoy the weird mix of down-to-earth grimdark, cosmic horror, heroic mythology and all kinds of things in one setting.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Because those extremely few but significant people can still accomplish things.

The way you described it, there is no way a imperial guard hero could kill a marine. If you think this is unusual, but still possible, then it becomes way closer to my headcanon .

 Ashiraya wrote:
That Guardsmen do not run around slaughtering everything by the dozen like in the Bobtheheroverse ( )

What? The only guard that goes around slaughtering everything that have the misfortune of being in his path (or rather, in the path between him and safety ) is Ciaphas Cain.

I think it does a fair enough job as it is depending on your interpretation of the fluff. I would prefer it to be on a D10 or D12 based system to allow more nuanced stats to give units more variety but it gives you a good picture.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I am one of the people who think that not only is the TT game an absurd arcade version of the fluff where everyone is supposed to be able to have armies that will almost never need to be more than 50% or so larger than the opponent's, and where both are supposed to be able to just put down two armies and blast themselves some kills.

Heh. Me? I'm so far at the other end of that spectrum it's not funny. I treat the TT (at least where it is applicable) as a primary source (or at least the first among secondary sources). I do have to use several VERY important cravats (weapon ranges are not absolutes, turn time is consistent but not directly representative, etc etc) to make this work, but that's how I do things. Given how wildly the fluff varies, I like having the TT game as firm anchor at the heart of it.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
The way you described it, there is no way a imperial guard hero could kill a marine.

With bayonet or lasgun, in normal combat? Pretty much impossible.

Shoot a Chaos Marine in the back with a Meltagun as the CSM is about to execute the Lord General? Very possible. I mean, the CSM will probably not die from it, but it certainly hurts, and it can make a lot of difference.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I mean, the CSM will probably not die from it, but it certainly hurts, and it can make a lot of difference.

That weapon is used to kill Land Raiders. How would it fail to kill a CSM when fired at close range in the back (where the spinal cord is)? I mean, except if that marine was already half a daemon or something.

The weapon is really not that efficient against Land Raiders either thanks to the ceramite plating. You'd need to hit weak-ish spots like certain engine parts or tracks.

Well, that was never represented on the tabletop (where melta and multi-melta are basically the best man-held weapons to deal with a land-raider afaik), and I have never heard about it in the fluff. As far as I know, chances are that the ceramite plating will be vaporised with the rest.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Well, that was never represented on the tabletop (where melta and multi-melta are basically the best man-held weapons to deal with a land-raider afaik), and I have never heard about it in the fluff. As far as I know, chances are that the ceramite plating will be vaporised with the rest.

Look up the Ceramite plating special rule- it overrides Melta.

LRs do not have it in the game for whatever reason but they do have ceramite plating in the fluffffff.

I think this is adding 1 and 1, thus getting 2 and not 0, but that's just me. YMMV


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In fact, seeing how easily we humans IRL die to everything, it is borderline immersion-breaking for me to see guardsmen take hits from the weapons of most races and survive.

As long as we all agree that Master Chief can't take a Space Marine, we're good.

 Ashiraya wrote:

How powerful are the troops of each faction really?

Guardsmen are the best. They're cool guys that don't afraid of anything

Alright, on a serious note. Individually, Space Marines of both flavours are easily the most effective. However, other races generally have so many troops as to counteract their advantage through numbers. Tau and Eldar suffer in this regard, but make up for it in other ways - tech, physical abilities, cunning, etc. The Tau (or more specifically, the Farsight Enclaves) may be the most gifted strategists in the universe, with only Eldar and Necrons challenging this.

Oh, almost forgot, I subscribe entirely to the Oldcron fluff. The C'tan are still a thing in a big way, and there's none of this silly divided Egyptian robuts in spess rubbish... The Red Harvest will continue.

IG are usually meat grinder armies. However, their tanks are top tier (although the crew are only as good as their regiment's training, meaning the operation of these tanks is as variable as other regiments - so meat grinder Armoured companies are somewhat common). However, a very rare few regiments are trained efficiently and effectively; these are the "special ops" regiments, such as the Catachan, Elysians, etc. These regiments are rare, but undoubtedly effective, and able to effectively fight Eldar, Tau, and other more adept armies. For immersion's sake, it's usually these kinds of armies we see on the table top.

 Ashiraya wrote:

How bad is the Imperium's current situation?

Total snafu. Everyone wants them dead, or worse, to some degree. Chaos wants total corruption of humanity before waging eternal war on the rest of the universe. Orks, Tyrranids, Necrons, - they're gonna do what they do. Eldar will probably try and kill them because reasons, Dark Eldar will probably try to enslave the entire race. That's a lot of meat for the flesh labs, and a lot of warriors for the arenas. Whole lotta pain either way. You know the story. "The enemy of my enemy", as they say - and the IOM has made it its business to make as many enemies as possible.

I doubt the squats are happy with them either...

 Ashiraya wrote:

How old can Marines become? Can the traitor Legionnaires really be 10K years old?

Well Dante clocks in at 1100 years old, IIRC. There's nothing that suggests marines are immortal, but they clearly have longer lifespans than normal. I'm wiling to bet it's a long, long time after 2000 years though. As for legionnaires - well, it's the Warp. I don't usually like to handwave something away so easily, but, well... it's the Warp. I ain't gotta explain gak

 Ashiraya wrote:

What about the Void Dragon?

Someone mentioned the Omnissiah?

 Ashiraya wrote:

How large are Titans? How large are spaceships?

Very. Larger than TT models would have us believe.

 Ashiraya wrote:

How effective at corrupting is Chaos actually?

Well you probably won't realise until you're growing a tentacle, or your Planetary Governor is announcing celebrations for "Four Armed Emperor Day".

 Ashiraya wrote:

How large are the Hive Fleets?

Pretty big, but not unmanageable.

 Ashiraya wrote:

Of course, those are just examples that I thought up in a few minutes. Post anything from your own interpretation!

:O

Hokay, here we go.

Legions, officially, no longer exist. However, warbands still adopt and hold the traditions for their former legion, and sometimes unite to fight for a similar cause.

There's a metric fethton of things we don't see on the table for the legions - for example, the Night Lords, which use Raptors and Warp Talons (Right. We'll get onto that in a moment) traditionally on the tabletop also have access to specialised Havocs and chosen, the Talon Lords, a useful version of Fear, and so so so much more. And that's just the Night Lords. This goes for all the legions.
Chaos marines are also far smarter than most fluff sources make them out to be; though there are far less Chaos Astartes than Loyalists, they are generally much more cunning and unpredictable. In fact, loyal Astartes usually lose to Chaos Astartes, due to their reliance on the Codex Astartes, and the fact that Chaos Marines already know the Codex themselves. Older legions and those that do not rely on the Codex usually put up a far better fight.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Look up the Ceramite plating special rule- it overrides Melta.

Yeah, but the Land Raider never had it, did it? And the fluff never spoke about a Land Raider being protected from Melta by its ceramite armor, did it?

Actually, I think adding this stupid rule to those stupid fliers made no sense to begin with, anyway.

 Ashiraya wrote:
In fact, seeing how easily we humans IRL die to everything, it is borderline immersion-breaking for me to see guardsmen take hits from the weapons of most races and survive.

Consider it as them being hit on non-vital body part. Maybe they are just taking arrows in the knee or something!

Well, if your to-wound roll fails it doesn't necessarily mean the person who took the hit "tanked it". Maybe it hit a piece of intervening terrain. Maybe the guy ducked at the last minute. Use your imagination. It's what I do when a Lascannon doesn't wound a fraggin batttlesuit.

Stupid battlesuits.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Well, if your to-wound roll fails it doesn't necessarily mean the person who took the hit "tanked it". Maybe it hit a piece of intervening terrain. Maybe the guy ducked at the last minute. Use your imagination. It's what I do when a Lascannon doesn't wound a fraggin batttlesuit.

Stupid battlesuits.

With battlesuits it could also be just a bit of damage to the leg or something, you only hurt the pilot if you hit the body.

That would still knock them out. You don't have to kill something in order to take it out of battle unless it's a Tyranid or a Nurgle thing. Then you really have to murderize it or it'll keep on coming.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
That would still knock them out. You don't have to kill something in order to take it out of battle.

Hitting the leg would have no real affect considering that they have the jetpacks and can do a continuous float.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Look up the Ceramite plating special rule- it overrides Melta.

Yeah, but the Land Raider never had it, did it? And the fluff never spoke about a Land Raider being protected from Melta by its ceramite armor, did it?

Codex Armageddon / Salamanders Vehicle Equipment.

Page 25. Land Raider +25 pts, rhino chassis based vehicles and Dreads +10 pts. Land Speeders had no access.

Adding Ceramite against melta did exist before the SR.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
That would still knock them out. You don't have to kill something in order to take it out of battle.

Hitting the leg would have no real affect considering that they have the jetpacks and can do a continuous float.

Well it wouldn't be able to kick. Because we all know how much... Tau... rely on...

Oh God, I'm sorry but I just can't say that and keep a straight face. Close Combat Tau... and it works, too. That's the hilarious thing about it. It works.

I personally consider Marine weapons vastly superior to the ones used by the Guard, not only in quality but more importantly sheer size (Bigger gun = bigger rounds = more firepower). This is something that is not entirely unsupported by the fluff.

Pg.320 Blood Angels Omnibus wrote:He saw Tycho’s combi-weapon lying on the floor and took a half-step toward it. The idea of taking it up himself died in this mind; the gun was so massive he would never have been able to lift it.

Pg.20 The First Heretic wrote:The angel’s brethren emerged from the dark interior of their landing craft and descended to the plaza. All wore armour of the same blue. All of them carried great weapons too heavy for a mortal man to lift unaided.

Pg.21 Deus Encarmine wrote:His gun clattered, the barrel spitting hot as rounds big as fists tore into the foe.

In the same way, grenades are really ineffective against Astartes.

Pgs.7+9+10 H&B 15 – Beneath the Flesh wrote:He could hear Maion’s footsteps as he moved down the corridor; the other Flesh Tearer was halfway to the stairs, the fizz of the electrical cables as they spat in their death throes… and the shifting of metal – Harahel pivoted left as a grenade hit the ground. His ocular sensors dimmed, shielding his eyes from the piercing flash that flooded the chamber. With a dense clatter, a half-dozen of the ceiling grilles fell to the ground. A cluster of figures in sodden fatigues dropped down after them and opened fire. ‘Contact!’ Harahel shouted into the vox even as a hail of las-fire pattered off his armour.

Bathed in blood-spatter and faced with an opponent whose armour bore their comrade’s eviscerated innards, the traitors fell back. One held his ground, staring wide-eyed at Harahel as he pulled a clutch of grenades from a harness. Harahel decapitated the man as he advanced on the others. The grenades fell from the headless corpse’s fingers. A cloud of flame and shrapnel washed over Harahel’s battle-plate as they detonated. A slew of warnings lit up on the Flesh Tearer’s retinal display. Harahel blinked them away; his armour’s integrity was intact. Ahead of him, the traitors had rallied behind a pillar. He could see the fear on their gaunt faces as he emerged unscathed from the billowing fire.

Pg.16 H&B 16 wrote:A grenade exploded, showering Harahel in shrapnel. The noise reminded him of a Cretacian thunderstorm.

They are also rather fast...

Pg.93 VS wrote:Sire, I believe we should save them for–’ The human said nothing more. The front of his face came free with a sickly crack, the flesh and jagged bone crunching in the Night Lord’s fist. Talos ignored the body as it toppled, spilling the insides of its halved skull onto the decking. No one had even seen him move, such was the prophet’s speed, clearing ten metres and vaulting a console table in the time it took a human heart to beat once.

Also, they can fall pretty far. Do not try this at home.

Pg.223 H&B 16 – Redeemed wrote:[...] wakefulness. His cheek was wet, and he could feel fluid pooling. Rafen blinked, scanning the visible glyphs across the line of his field of vision. His helmet had been damaged, along with some of the actuators in his legs, but the cowl of ceramite and steel that surrounded him had taken the brunt of the crash. He took stock of himself, feeling for injuries. Some minor breaks in his bones, contusions and the like, things that would have been deadly to a common human but little more than an irritant to a Space Marine. [...] Rafen took a step and then halted, looking up. Wreaths of smoke and wedges of debris made it hard to see far up the ascent shaft, but he estimated that they must have fallen several kilometres before colliding with the end of the passage.

Oh, and Space Marines can fight for a looooong time.

Pgs.3-4 Kill Hill wrote:Priad of Damocles, of the Iron Snakes of Ithaka, has been here for fifteen years. To the human mind, that is a great chunk of a lifetime. To an Imperial Guardsman, that would be a long and heartless tour in hell. To Priad, it is an undertaking, a period of occupation, a duty. Onerous, perhaps, grueling even, but in the end just another mission notch on his service history, just another action to while away a life that will be functionally immortal if violent death does not claim him.

Not long. Fifteen years. Entirely reasonable. For a moment, Priad had been concerned that it might be a significant length of time. Great Petrok’s two centuries spent holding Ankylos might have become tedious by the end. Steelmen are less entertaining to hunt than Greenskins.

They are also pretty big. The following quote describes one outside of armour.

Pg.94 25 for 25 – The Last Detail wrote:It’ll be dark soon,’ the boy’s father said. ‘We should perhaps stay here another night and then set off at dawn.’ ‘No time,’ the Astartes said. Now that he was upright he seemed even huger, half as tall again as the man in front of him, his hands as big as shovels, his chest as wide as a dining table. ‘I see in the dark. You can follow me.’

Assuming the man is 6 feet, rather average, this would put the Marine at nine feet!

This one is for you, Eldar. Seems your Shuriken are not as PA-piercing as one might think.

Pg.612 - The Rewards of Tolerance wrote:A fusillade of bright blasts and blurring discs filled the stairwell. Gesart recognized the shuriken catapult fire amongst the laser shots. He leaned over the railing and unleashed a hail of fire from his storm bolter, the explosive ammunition ripping a trail of splintering metal across the landing below. Slender shapes darted from the shadows and he was engulfed by a hail of razor-sharp projectiles. Pushing himself back, he glanced down and his armor and saw a row of barbed discs embedded across his chest pauldron.

SM are also stronk.

Pg. 196 Warriors of Ultramar wrote:“That is good to know, Major Satria. The warrior spirit of Ultramar is in you.” Satria beamed with pride at the compliment as they eased past a madly revving supply truck. Laden with two-dozen frightened citizens of Erebus, its back wheels had sunk into the churned soil of the road and, behind it, angry horns blared continuously, as though their owners believed sheer volume of noise alone could shift the immobilised truck. Fountains of mud and chunks of grit from its spinning back wheels sprayed the limousine behind the truck, cracking its windscreen and leaving streaks of bare metal where they ripped across its pristine bodywork. The driver of the truck continued gunning the engine, oblivious to the damage he was causing, gasoline rainbows forming in the clouds of filthy blue oilsmoke jetting from the track’s exhaust.
...
Major Satria banged on the cab of the truck and made a chopping motion across
his throat to the driver. Immediately, its engine shut down and the noise of the protesting motor faded to a throaty rumble as Satria made his way towards the limousine.
...
“Did you see what that imbecile has done?” he snapped. “I did indeed, Mister van Gelder, and if you’ll just bear with us, we’ll get you on your way as soon as we can find some planks to put under the back wheels of this track and get it out of the mud.”
“I want that wretched driver’s name so that I can be properly compensated upon my return to Tarsis Ultra.”
“I assure you that I shall attend to the matter, sir,” soothed Satria. “Now, if you’ll just return to the lovely heated interior of your limousine, we’ll soon have you out of the city.”
Before van Gelder could reply, a groan of metal sounded from behind the major. Satria turned to see Sergeant Learchus effortlessly lifting the back end of the fully laden truck from the sucking mud and push it forwards to more solid ground. The sergeant dropped the truck to the road and almost immediately it sped off to the spaceport.
Satria had heard of the great strength of Space Marines, but had thought that most were overblown exaggerations. Now he knew better.

Flesh and Iron wrote:During a particular training exercise in ambush methods, a fledgling Disciple was crushed by his own poorly-rigged log trap. One of the four - Gabre - simply levered the half-tonne log off the dead man and Mautista saw with his own eyes the way Gabre barely strained to lift it.

SM are main battle tanks.

Death of Antagonis wrote:With no home world, the Dragons had no infrastructure to produce and properly maintain vehicles. Those they had were for ultimate measures. But what did they need with vehicles when each Space Marine was a main battle tank with legs? Vritras’s spearhead began its destruction of the enemy with fire from the rear. The Devastators of Squad Lanx unleashed their heavy bolters. Rounds with the destructive punch of artillery shells tore the cultists apart.

Here, CSM sodomizing IG.

Death of Antagonis wrote:There was a flash over his head, and a lascannon shot punched into a Bane Wolf’s gas reservoir. The tank exploded, spreading its angry death for dozens of metres around it. This time, it was the men of the Mortisian Guard whose screams were awful and short, and whose skin was puddling in the road. Bisset’s jaw dropped and he threw himself flat. The Leman Russ’s turret rotated in his direction, and the heavy bolter sponson chugged rounds. The turret hadn’t moved half its arc before a second lascannon beam blasted it from the chassis.

Armoured beings stormed past him. They were terrible, golden angels, and they fell upon the Guard with bolter and chainsword. They savaged the units that had escaped the release of the gas and tore the tanks apart. They were monsters who bore the garb of beauty. They were giants in the service of war turned into art. There were only five of them. There were a hundred times as many Guardsmen, and that was far too few. The battle was even more one-sided than the attack on the rebels had been. Within seconds, hulls had been ripped open, treads yanked from wheels and used as whips, and men scythed into shrieking meat. The Chaos Space Marines stood proudly in the carnage, gods well pleased by their allotment of blood. The surviving rebels emerged from their hiding places. They began to cheer, and the cry was taken up by more and more people pouring into the streets.

On another less Marine-related topic. Vanquishers are not as good against the more heavily armoured targets as one may be misled to think.

Titanicus, pg. 72 wrote:They got off a second shot.

Nothing. The giant engine [a Titan, unknown class but sub-Warlord] strode on, closing ground. Its vast left heel mashed a Vanquisher underfoot and kicked the mangled wreck aside.

"Full ahead!" Varco yelled. Queen Bitch hurtled forward, and the gun team got off a third shot. Varco saw it burst like a firework against the tarnished chest plate of the advancing monster.

I deliberately left out my Goto quotes because, well, Goto.