Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Well yes, marine versus FW, the marine wins every time, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that. But I will point out, that FFG just came out with tau PCs for RT (which I prefer to use, because it is a little less biased, RT in general that is).
The pulse rifle in that is pretty good, 150m, S/2/4, 2d10+3 E, 4, 36, gyro-stabalized.
The longshot (sniper variant) pulse rifle is even better, 200m, S/2/-, 2d10+3, 4, 12, Accurate and tearing.

What is kind of interesting is that the cannon clip capacity for a pulse rifle/carbine is 50, but I suspect that was toned down for balance reasons. A tau PC starts with a good quality pulse rifle or carbine, and a best quality pulse pistol.

slade the sniper wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:


I see the Guard ... using their troops as buffers for the good stuff like the WW2 Germans did.

What???

The Wehrmacht infantry squad was centered around the MG42/34. Riflemen were not expected to change the course of the skirmish and were used as support for the machine gun. Obviously, they weren't marched in front of tanks to clear out mines but riflemen were "buffers" for the MG.

So, for the Imperial Guard, I would imagine that their mortars, Lascannons, Autocannons or whatever were considered to be the most important things in the squad and that Lasgunners were pretty much meat shields for the guns that might actually accomplish something.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

slade the sniper wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:


I see the Guard ... using their troops as buffers for the good stuff like the WW2 Germans did.

What???

The Wehrmacht infantry squad was centered around the MG42/34. Riflemen were not expected to change the course of the skirmish and were used as support for the machine gun. Obviously, they weren't marched in front of tanks to clear out mines but riflemen were "buffers" for the MG.

So, for the Imperial Guard, I would imagine that their mortars, Lascannons, Autocannons or whatever were considered to be the most important things in the squad and that Lasgunners were pretty much meat shields for the guns that might actually accomplish something.

This is the case in all military strategy fr infantry. The light machine gun is over a third of a squads fire power. Its vital the Machine gunner is alive at all times. But riflemen are more than buffers. Its the riflemen who benefit from the machine gun in the unit. On its own the machine gun is nothing as it only pins the enemy. The riflemen use this to their advantage and move while the enemy are slowed down from mg fire. So while you are partly right the riflemen are just as important as the machine gun. They need each other to function or they are both pointless.

 Melissia wrote:
Hey, Orks are deeply concerned with collateral damage.









...









The more, the better!

I know. At first, I had written lack of concern. I then realized how I was wrong. I guess that is what they mean when they say great mind thinks alike .

 Swastakowey wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

slade the sniper wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:


I see the Guard ... using their troops as buffers for the good stuff like the WW2 Germans did.

What???

The Wehrmacht infantry squad was centered around the MG42/34. Riflemen were not expected to change the course of the skirmish and were used as support for the machine gun. Obviously, they weren't marched in front of tanks to clear out mines but riflemen were "buffers" for the MG.

So, for the Imperial Guard, I would imagine that their mortars, Lascannons, Autocannons or whatever were considered to be the most important things in the squad and that Lasgunners were pretty much meat shields for the guns that might actually accomplish something.

This is the case in all military strategy fr infantry. The light machine gun is over a third of a squads fire power. Its vital the Machine gunner is alive at all times. But riflemen are more than buffers. Its the riflemen who benefit from the machine gun in the unit. On its own the machine gun is nothing as it only pins the enemy. The riflemen use this to their advantage and move while the enemy are slowed down from mg fire. So while you are partly right the riflemen are just as important as the machine gun. They need each other to function or they are both pointless.

If you want to debate this more take it to PM but that wasn't the case for the Krauts or any of the major WW2 players. For example, US doctrine had the MG in a supporting role with the rifleman as their main killers. Not so for the Germans. The MG42 was their main weapon and they outfitted their troops as such. Everyone carried belts and cans of spare ammunition for their MG since the thing was important and it chewed through ammo quickly. In combat, rifleman would protect the MG from troops trying to flank it on the defense or flank the troops being pinned by the MG42 on the offense. Commanders wouldn't throw troops away to save their MG but it was clear that it was the center of the squad. It's why, on average, the German WW2 infantry platoon would have more MGs than their allied counterparts.

To relate this more to the thread I think that's how the Imperial Guard operates. They give anyone they can extra ammo for their squad heavy weapon since a Lascannon can splat pretty much anything man sized but their Lasguns are ineffective against anything that isn't man. Heavy Bolters/Stubbers would be more common fluffwise since they allow you to pin the enemy and they are quite effective against their common enemies in rebellious humans and Orks.

Yea I understand dude, i'll PM ya.

Can I get in on the PM action of MG = Fire, riflemen = maneuver? This interests me...

-STS

Here's how bad I believe the Imperium's situation to be: They have around a billion planets (1,000,000,000), with over 2/3rds of them having seen some kind of galactic conflict or heresy. Not only is every single force in the galaxy taking pieces out of the imperium, but the Inquisition is Exterminating loyal planets at the highest rate ever. Not only is exterminates used to eliminate planets that have grown too troublesome to hold, not only is it used on mostly loyal planets to prevent the spread of heresy, but it's also just used to deny planets to the enemy as a burnt ground policy. So add that to the fact that where the warp has been breached it never fully heals, and the greatest centers of conflict in the galaxy all seem to involve the Imperium, and the the 13th Black Crusade is actually going to reach Terra this time... I'd say it will lead to a chain of Imperial withdrawals that will cut the Imperium into a small fraction of its size. I'm guessing 1/5th. After that, the orks and nids and chaos will become too empowered by the spoils of their victories and deliver the death blow.

The Imperium will probably send its final offense into the Eye of Terror, but it will be too little too late. We all know that no one with any say is going to abandon Segmentum Solar to the archenemy, so whatever final attack they do launch will feed the enemy at worst, and succeed in eliminating the daemon worlds of a few legions at best. The galaxy will fall into a new dark age where humanity's future becomes chaos, which sounds interesting but knowing the traitor legions they'll just feth it up with their superiority complex and every regular human being will become a slave to be worked, tortured, and killed.

 Quarterdime wrote:
Here's how bad I believe the Imperium's situation to be: They have around a billion planets (1,000,000,000), with over 2/3rds of them having seen some kind of galactic conflict or heresy. Not only is every single force in the galaxy taking pieces out of the imperium, but the Inquisition is Exterminating loyal planets at the highest rate ever. Not only is exterminates used to eliminate planets that have grown too troublesome to hold, not only is it used on mostly loyal planets to prevent the spread of heresy, but it's also just used to deny planets to the enemy as a burnt ground policy. So add that to the fact that where the warp has been breached it never fully heals, and the greatest centers of conflict in the galaxy all seem to involve the Imperium, and the the 13th Black Crusade is actually going to reach Terra this time... I'd say it will lead to a chain of Imperial withdrawals that will cut the Imperium into a small fraction of its size. I'm guessing 1/5th. After that, the orks and nids and chaos will become too empowered by the spoils of their victories and deliver the death blow.

The Imperium will probably send its final offense into the Eye of Terror, but it will be too little too late. We all know that no one with any say is going to abandon Segmentum Solar to the archenemy, so whatever final attack they do launch will feed the enemy at worst, and succeed in eliminating the daemon worlds of a few legions at best. The galaxy will fall into a new dark age where humanity's future becomes chaos, which sounds interesting but knowing the traitor legions they'll just feth it up with their superiority complex and every regular human being will become a slave to be worked, tortured, and killed.

It should also be noted that Chaos isn't even restricted to the Eye of Terror- Huron Blackheart could do some serious damage in the near future given that he now possesses the strength of a full space marine legion and doesn't have to deal with the Cadian line. For all we know Huron and all of his forces might decide to completely demolish the Cadian line and sail up right behind or under the Imperial Fleet above Cadia and blow them out of orbit. Plus while the Imperium is focused on fighting Chaos, the Tyranids and Orks will be biting healthy chunks out of their space, the Tyranids proving to be more damaging than simple collateral, as Tyranid fleets function like gigantic fields of radio static that blot out all communication in the surrounding area. Meaning that even if they successfully fight off the Nids, Orks, Dark Eldar, Necrons, and Chaos are more than capable of waltzing right through the sector of space unharassed. Hell the Tau might even launch an invasion of Imperial space if given the chance by a failed Nid fleet.

Only one region of the Imperium is "focused" on fighting Chaos-- and even then, never to the exclusion of all other threats-- and that's the Segmentum Obscurus. Which is the region where there are the fewest Orks and no Tyranids. The other regions of the Imperium focus on their own problems.

I don't really know much about the fluff aside from what I've gleaned from the codices I have access to or am interested in reading. So I skipped Codex Eldar, Tau, and pretty much all the supplements... I'm sure there was nothing good in there anyways! Lol, just kidding. I'm sure those are great books. But as it stands my knowledge of 40k canon isn't quite as extensive as say... my Tolkien, but I digress. Based on what I've seen and read and the general overall impression I get from the game, is pretty consistent with typical grim-dark themes. Hyper violence, social inequality on an appalling level, racist, hatred, pretty much all the evil things about humanity are present in 40k.

But I feel like, there is this slight patina over it all, a crackled thin layer of... bull! Especially the BL books, or at least what I've read of them. It's just like those old Mack Bolan novels, all flash and action and no brains. You turn the pages more out of a sense of learned behavior rather than any actual desire to see what lies beyond, and I think that given the subject matter, it's a damn shame. I mean, yes there are probably good writers, point them out for me if you will, but even when reading those novels don't you ever think: "Gee, that's really epic, but somewhere out there an Ork is picking his nose." I'm sorry to pick on the Orks, no pun intended, but they could be so amazingly bad-ass and not just an excuse to fire bolters. I mean, if I wanted to read Mack Bolan I'd pick up a Don Pendleton novel.

I think 40k could do with a big shot of realism, but that's just me. I know it will never happen and here is why. Someday, someone will snap. Probably a Postal Worker or a Fed Ex Driver. They'll go bananas like they always do, people will get hurt. And he'll be a 40k player. His house will be full of exquisitely painted miniatures, and his bookshelves will be full of hyper violent literature that deals with the darkest deeds of humanity, and GW will fold so fast the doors will be closed before the boxes even come off the shelves.

So instead we'll leave it like this!

Wotz dat humies? Laffin at da Okzses? Hurra durra!

darkcloak wrote:

But I feel like, there is this slight patina over it all, a crackled thin layer of... bull! Especially the BL books, or at least what I've read of them. It's just like those old Mack Bolan novels, all flash and action and no brains. You turn the pages more out of a sense of learned behavior rather than any actual desire to see what lies beyond, and I think that given the subject matter, it's a damn shame. I mean, yes there are probably good writers, point them out for me if you will, but even when reading those novels don't you ever think: "Gee, that's really epic, but somewhere out there an Ork is picking his nose." I'm sorry to pick on the Orks, no pun intended, but they could be so amazingly bad-ass and not just an excuse to fire bolters. I mean, if I wanted to read Mack Bolan I'd pick up a Don Pendleton novel.

There are some fairly good non-Imperial books out there.

If you're looking for Chaos, then I would recommend both the Word Bearers trilogy by Anthony Reynolds (it really goes into the Dark Faith religion, and is full of internal politics) and Storm of Iron by Graham McNeill (Iron Warriors, grim trench warfare, and a nice glimpse of why being a slave to the Chaos powers is an awful way to live).

I'm currently making my way through the Valedor novel by Guy Haley too, and am being pleasantly surprised. That's from an Eldar perspective.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Quarterdime wrote:
Here's how bad I believe the Imperium's situation to be: They have around a billion planets (1,000,000,000), with over 2/3rds of them having seen some kind of galactic conflict or heresy. Not only is every single force in the galaxy taking pieces out of the imperium, but the Inquisition is Exterminating loyal planets at the highest rate ever. Not only is exterminates used to eliminate planets that have grown too troublesome to hold, not only is it used on mostly loyal planets to prevent the spread of heresy, but it's also just used to deny planets to the enemy as a burnt ground policy. So add that to the fact that where the warp has been breached it never fully heals, and the greatest centers of conflict in the galaxy all seem to involve the Imperium, and the the 13th Black Crusade is actually going to reach Terra this time... I'd say it will lead to a chain of Imperial withdrawals that will cut the Imperium into a small fraction of its size. I'm guessing 1/5th. After that, the orks and nids and chaos will become too empowered by the spoils of their victories and deliver the death blow.

The Imperium will probably send its final offense into the Eye of Terror, but it will be too little too late. We all know that no one with any say is going to abandon Segmentum Solar to the archenemy, so whatever final attack they do launch will feed the enemy at worst, and succeed in eliminating the daemon worlds of a few legions at best. The galaxy will fall into a new dark age where humanity's future becomes chaos, which sounds interesting but knowing the traitor legions they'll just feth it up with their superiority complex and every regular human being will become a slave to be worked, tortured, and killed.

It should also be noted that Chaos isn't even restricted to the Eye of Terror- Huron Blackheart could do some serious damage in the near future given that he now possesses the strength of a full space marine legion and doesn't have to deal with the Cadian line. For all we know Huron and all of his forces might decide to completely demolish the Cadian line and sail up right behind or under the Imperial Fleet above Cadia and blow them out of orbit. Plus while the Imperium is focused on fighting Chaos, the Tyranids and Orks will be biting healthy chunks out of their space, the Tyranids proving to be more damaging than simple collateral, as Tyranid fleets function like gigantic fields of radio static that blot out all communication in the surrounding area. Meaning that even if they successfully fight off the Nids, Orks, Dark Eldar, Necrons, and Chaos are more than capable of waltzing right through the sector of space unharassed. Hell the Tau might even launch an invasion of Imperial space if given the chance by a failed Nid fleet.

That's quite the voyage across the galaxy just for Cadia. Besides, reading Blood Reaver I'm left with the impression Huron is waiting for Abbadon to move first so that he can exploit any vulnerabilities that it might open. If nothing else, he'd increase hostile action against the Imperium knowing it'd be even more devastating at that time. Not to mention that even if he did flank the orbital defenses, he'd probably still get blown to smithereens due to the ridiculous amount of defense cadia has. It's the most well defended place in the Imperium next to Terra itself. So what if they flank it? The backside of cadia probably is just as brimming with orbital defense if it isn't brimming with ships. I guess what I'm trying to say is that's a bad idea.

I don't remember "billion" bein g mentioned in the FFG material. Where?

I think the number is absurdly large.

Tyranids are going to gobble the entire universe. Who cares what anybody thinks. Smoke em while you got em folks