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The thing that bugs me most about the Imperial Guard fluff is the lack of reserve troopers. You hear about a regiment getting pummeled into dust and then having the remnants of it be distributed into other regiments.

Is there no supply chain? In real life, reserves and replacement troopers are drawn up from their countries, and then attached to a regiment as attrition wears them down. The Imperial Guard's mode of operation means that a regiment has a life expectancy of one or two campaigns, until attrition and casualties effectively make them cease to exist.

Arcsquad12 wrote:Is there no supply chain? In real life, reserves and replacement troopers are drawn up from their countries, and then attached to a regiment as attrition wears them down. The Imperial Guard's mode of operation means that a regiment has a life expectancy of one or two campaigns, until attrition and casualties effectively make them cease to exist.

"It's not a bug, it's a feature!" (of the setting, in this case)

The supply chain is a one-way thing, with the Munitorum only being concerned about hauling stuff to the front as quickly as possible. Troops are always raised as regiments because they're more useful this way and can be deployed as independent fighting formations, integrated into an Army Group, or used to reinforce an understrength regiment with a massive injection of numbers all at once - although the Munitorum generally prefers merging two understrength regiments to gain a new one as this doesn't mess with their sacred doctrine of combat efficiency standards (-> this is what results in some regiments being raised with thousands, and others being raised with tens of thousands of troops, depending on their estimated combat capability as influenced by prior training and equipment level).

Also, I think there's a whole lot of campaigns where the Imperial Guard really just steamrolls its enemy with minimal casualties, for example when subduing a minor uprising, or when fighting tribal warriors. As per the Index Astartes, just one regiment of Cadian Shock Troops was sufficient to eradicate every single barbarian tribe on the Sons of Malice's former homeworld after the Chapter fled into exile. Lasguns >>> axes and bows

But wouldn't it make sense to have a supply of levied soldiers, without regiment or rank, to be on hand for replenishment?

Not particularly when your battle front is 1-3 months of travel to reach. When you send off these reserve forces the situation could shift drastically and the regiment they were meant to join could be obliterated. Therefore an easier answer is to send a new regiment and combine whatever existing regiments at the battlefront.

 ansacs wrote:
Not particularly when your battle front is 1-3 months of travel to reach. When you send off these reserve forces the situation could shift drastically and the regiment they were meant to join could be obliterated. Therefore an easier answer is to send a new regiment and combine whatever existing regiments at the battlefront.

That and the fact it's easier for the IOM to calculate in bulk than in individual numbers.
They probably just calculate forces as "Operational" and "Non-Operational" strength, and mash together any "Non-Operationals" to form an "Operational" and then ship it to a battle.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
The thing that bugs me most about the Imperial Guard fluff is the lack of reserve troopers. You hear about a regiment getting pummeled into dust and then having the remnants of it be distributed into other regiments.

Is there no supply chain? In real life, reserves and replacement troopers are drawn up from their countries, and then attached to a regiment as attrition wears them down. The Imperial Guard's mode of operation means that a regiment has a life expectancy of one or two campaigns, until attrition and casualties effectively make them cease to exist.

The Mordian guard reinforces their numbers with local PDF forces when able to do so.

Local PDF? As in, not from Mordian?

That... doesn't jive with that Regiment's fluff.

 Psienesis wrote:
Local PDF? As in, not from Mordian?

That... doesn't jive with that Regiment's fluff.

Its specifically mentioned in the novel Iron Guard and the end of the novel they recruit some of the people they saved in the mordian Iron Guard.

Which makes sense with the ''reliability'' of warp travel as it is regiments are going to try an reinforce their troops with local forces.

godking wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Local PDF? As in, not from Mordian?

That... doesn't jive with that Regiment's fluff.

Its specifically mentioned in the novel Iron Guard and the end of the novel they recruit some of the people they saved in the mordian Iron Guard.

Which makes sense with the ''reliability'' of warp travel as it is regiments are going to try an reinforce their troops with local forces.

And here's the crazy thing about Warhammer 40,000 fluff. When you have this 'everything is true and false-' style method of fluffiness, and every author, be it Codexes or Black Library, puts their own spin on the subject, you get this: a big ol' bag o' crazy.

Let's face it, all we need is for one author to write a Black Library novel saying 'the Imperial Guard do this...' and 'poof', we have more 'official' fluff.

Love it or hate it, it is what it is.

Well, the First and Only ended up recruiting a bunch of people from Vervunhive after they saved it. Although by the time that fight was over, there wasn't much of a hive left for the people to live in (it was actually seen as a gift from the Imperium to let them join the Tanith because those people no longer had anywhere to live).

If you need reinforcements in the form of human bodies, you need reinforcements in the form of human bodies. I don't see what the big deal is, here. It's not like these are mutants or xenos they're recruiting.

TiamatRoar wrote:
Well, the First and Only ended up recruiting a bunch of people from Vervunhive after they saved it. Although by the time that fight was over, there wasn't much of a hive left for the people to live in (it was actually seen as a gift from the Imperium to let them join the Tanith because those people no longer had anywhere to live).

If you need reinforcements in the form of human bodies, you need reinforcements in the form of human bodies. I don't see what the big deal is, here. It's not like these are mutants or xenos they're recruiting.

They could be closet heretics, but that's a story for the Inquisitor to hear.

 Psienesis wrote:
That's "reformed" not "reinforced".

That's the homeworld getting a note from the Departmento Munitorum saying "this unit suffered 100% casualties last week. Send us another one." and the planet raises another Regiment, tacks on the honors and distinctions of its last incarnation, and ships them out.

I specifically avoided use of the word "reform" for that exact reason, it gives the impression that you're starting from scratch, when in reality, reforming a unit in military parlance just means its being built back to fighting strength, and 100% casualties are a very rare occurrence since usually a unit is effectively removed from fighting via attrition at a much lower incidence of casualties, and when I say 'removed' I don't mean withdrawn, I mean they cease functioning as command, logistics, communication, and cohesion break down rendering them incapable of operating at any capacity and get 'left behind'.

In any case, contrary to popular belief the definition of casualty isn't actually dead...

Also its tradition not specialization. All the forces on that planet follow the tradition of training and the honour of taking on that planets traditional wargear. They specialize in something because of their tradition.

Wrong. Tradition does not equate to specialization. Tradition refers to customs and beliefs, not tactics and doctrine. Tradition is things like unit nicknames, mottos, histories, sayings, etc. Marines saying "Semper Fi" "Oorah" and invoking Chesty Puller are tradition, assaulting a beachhead is a mission.

Reinforcements are mentioned a few times above, and as much I want 'my' Guard to receive reinforcements from home, I thought fluff stated that regiments aren't reinforced, just smashed into other regiments.

Not always, I think the fluff states that they try to reinforce units from their homeworld whenever possible, but often that isn't an option due to the situation.

godking wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Local PDF? As in, not from Mordian?

That... doesn't jive with that Regiment's fluff.

Its specifically mentioned in the novel Iron Guard and the end of the novel they recruit some of the people they saved in the mordian Iron Guard.

Which makes sense with the ''reliability'' of warp travel as it is regiments are going to try an reinforce their troops with local forces.

That may be... but these FNGs aren't Mordians. They did not grow up on Mordian. They did not train like the Mordians trained. They did not live as the Mordians lived. How can they call themselves "Mordian Iron Guard" if they have never been on Mordian or ever had to take the part of its Iron Guard?

doesn't Caliban produce the best guards of the whole imperium

LightKing wrote:
doesn't Caliban produce the best guards of the whole imperium

Yes, and so does Cadia, Armagedon and Catachan...

Hodgepodge of different tactics, cultures, and methods, with each regiment being its own unique army. They range from bury them with bodies to emulating astartes and using deepstrikes. Anything an everything. In desperate situations, you might even find a guardsmen regiment using pointy sticks.

LightKing wrote:
doesn't Caliban produce the best guards of the whole imperium

I doubt it given that the majority of Caliban as a planet was destroyed during Luther's betrayal of the Dark Angels and what was left was made into the fortress monastery called The Rock. So...there's no guard regiments raised there, don't know what you're talking about.

Methinks you should read up on your fluff a bit more before commenting randomly in the background section.

 Psienesis wrote:

godking wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Local PDF? As in, not from Mordian?

That... doesn't jive with that Regiment's fluff.

Its specifically mentioned in the novel Iron Guard and the end of the novel they recruit some of the people they saved in the mordian Iron Guard.

Which makes sense with the ''reliability'' of warp travel as it is regiments are going to try an reinforce their troops with local forces.

That may be... but these FNGs aren't Mordians. They did not grow up on Mordian. They did not train like the Mordians trained. They did not live as the Mordians lived. How can they call themselves "Mordian Iron Guard" if they have never been on Mordian or ever had to take the part of its Iron Guard?

They where inducted in the Molrdian iron guard thus making them iron guard. Which is logical reinforcements from Mordian may take years to arrive if they arrive. to keep a unit up to battle strength local forces would have to be inducted.

RIght... but you do understand how the Mordian Iron Guard comes to be, right? As in, you do understand conditions of life on Mordian that temper a person into the sort of soldier worthy of the name "Iron Guard"?

This is like repopulating a Great Company with some Space Marines from another Chapter. Sure, they're Space Marines... but they're not from Fenris. They're not Space Wolves.

 Psienesis wrote:
RIght... but you do understand how the Mordian Iron Guard comes to be, right? As in, you do understand conditions of life on Mordian that temper a person into the sort of soldier worthy of the name "Iron Guard"?

This is like repopulating a Great Company with some Space Marines from another Chapter. Sure, they're Space Marines... but they're not from Fenris. They're not Space Wolves.

Well. Not really.

The way I look at it, regiments are named after where they are first formed, and maintain their name as a fighting unit even after a total swapout of men. I think, however, that the Administratum would take into account of the fact that they're no longer fully Iron Guard, and mark them as such, so that a commander who needs a particular skill set is aware that they're not really getting Iron Guard.

That, and the new guys would get trained up to standard.

 Psienesis wrote:
RIght... but you do understand how the Mordian Iron Guard comes to be, right? As in, you do understand conditions of life on Mordian that temper a person into the sort of soldier worthy of the name "Iron Guard"?

This is like repopulating a Great Company with some Space Marines from another Chapter. Sure, they're Space Marines... but they're not from Fenris. They're not Space Wolves.

Yes i understand how the Mordian guard comes to be that still does not negate the fact that understrength units in the field have to be brought up to battle strength quickly and that reinforcements from Mordian may take years to arrive. And the conditions of Mordian are not unique in the empire.

Are local replacements Mordians no are they able to be trained well enough to replace fallen Mordians in the field yes.

And space marines are a bad counter example as you are also dealing with issues like gene seed ect.

What I'm reading out of these posts is that perhaps there was a slight misunderstanding here? What would make sense and actually be compatible to Codex fluff would be that, no, the Mordian Iron Guard does not recruit individual casualty replacements out of some locals they happen to come across. However, any IG regiment, including the Mordians, may get merged with another regiment if they are seriously understrength - and this other regiment could indeed be locally raised PDF. Just like with what I had mentioned earlier about the C:IG army list not being representative of a true Cadian regiment but able to represent one that had been "reinforced" by other troops. And just like with the C:IG army list compared to the C:EoT Cadians, such an "impure" Mordian regiment might lose a bit of the edge that a "proper" Mordian unit would have, because the troops from the unit they got merged with lack their intense drill and discipline, and it is nigh-impossible to train them up to quite the same degree (especially once they are already committed to a warzone).

And I have a feeling that this might be what happened in that Iron Guard novel?

Well, either that, or the author just didn't care what the Codex says.

Yes i understand how the Mordian guard comes to be that still does not negate the fact that understrength units in the field have to be brought up to battle strength quickly and that reinforcements from Mordian may take years to arrive. And the conditions of Mordian are not unique in the empire.

Unique? Maybe not. But special enough to make an IG Regiment famed across the Imperium for its discipline and its drill.

Are local replacements Mordians no are they able to be trained well enough to replace fallen Mordians in the field yes.

I would counter that it is impossible to train them to be that good, because it is impossible to replicate the conditions under which the Mordian Iron Guard are trained.

This is like claiming that a PDF regiment that is raised on Paradiso V can be merged with the Catachan Jungle Fighters and trained to be "just as good" as the Catachan natives. That's preposterous.

And space marines are a bad counter example as you are also dealing with issues like gene seed ect.

That's why it's an analogy.

 Psienesis wrote:

Yes i understand how the Mordian guard comes to be that still does not negate the fact that understrength units in the field have to be brought up to battle strength quickly and that reinforcements from Mordian may take years to arrive. And the conditions of Mordian are not unique in the empire.

Unique? Maybe not. But special enough to make an IG Regiment famed across the Imperium for its discipline and its drill.

Are local replacements Mordians no are they able to be trained well enough to replace fallen Mordians in the field yes.

I would counter that it is impossible to train them to be that good, because it is impossible to replicate the conditions under which the Mordian Iron Guard are trained.

This is like claiming that a PDF regiment that is raised on Paradiso V can be merged with the Catachan Jungle Fighters and trained to be "just as good" as the Catachan natives. That's preposterous.

And space marines are a bad counter example as you are also dealing with issues like gene seed ect.

That's why it's an analogy.

Catachans are Jungle fighting specialists hailing from a jungle death world so no you cannot simply merge them with soldiers from other forces.

The have specialized skills which cannot be ''trained''

Mordian iron guard however great they are do not have specialized unique skills which cannot be be trained into non mordian troops discipline and drill are things that can be learned non mordian recruits could be trained well enough to at least be passabble replacements for troops lost in battle.

@godking: Please use commas, it makes sentences much easier to read.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry, but this is how I'd correct it as an example. It's that I had to read the last sentence several times before my brain worked out what it said (may be more my problem than yours).

godking wrote:


Catachans are Jungle fighting specialists hailing from a jungle death world, so no you cannot simply merge them with soldiers from other forces.

The have specialized skills which cannot be ''trained''.

Mordian iron guard, however great they are, do not have specialized unique skills which cannot be be trained into non-Mordian troops. Discipline and drill are things that can be learned, and non-Mordian recruits could be trained well enough to at least be passable replacements for troops lost in battle.

Mordian iron guard however great they are do not have specialized unique skills which cannot be be trained into non mordian troops discipline and drill are things that can be learned non mordian recruits could be trained well enough to at least be passabble replacements for troops lost in battle.

Ah, ok.... you actually don't know anything about the Mordian Iron Guard. That explains a lot.

The Mordian Iron Guard are legendary for their discipline under fire and their iron-strong adherence to orders. They follow their orders to the letter and without a moment's hesitation. They are excellent sharpshooters, using precise fire and iron resolve to destroy the enemies of the Emperor.

They fight in their dress uniforms, as "the bright colors and elaborate decoration on Mordian uniforms often mislead their enemies into thinking they are facing ceremonial troops with little combat experience, though this misapprehension is usually corrected as soon as they attempt to advance in the face of the Iron Guards' precise volleys and unyielding resolve." If you're bringing people in from somewhere else they don't have this uniform to wear.

It should also be noted "even in the face of the overwhelming daemonic hordes of Chaos, Iron Guard regiments will stand their ground, striking down their foe with disciplined fire; if forced to withdraw their lines will never break." Why GW did not give them Fearless or Iron Discipline or... something to represent this is anyone's guess. So I would not take their lack of SR on the table-top to represent that this unit is not just as special as the Catachan (just in a different manner).

Some interesting discussions here. On the traditions side of things, remember that while members of the regiment might never go home, news of their exploits is likely to. Tradition can be built at home regarding mentions in dispatches and heroic actions that are astropathed back to their homeworld. Also mail could go either way, it just might take a long time to get there being passed from ship to ship that might be going in roughly the right direction.

 Psienesis wrote:

Mordian iron guard however great they are do not have specialized unique skills which cannot be be trained into non mordian troops discipline and drill are things that can be learned non mordian recruits could be trained well enough to at least be passabble replacements for troops lost in battle.

Ah, ok.... you actually don't know anything about the Mordian Iron Guard. That explains a lot.

The Mordian Iron Guard are legendary for their discipline under fire and their iron-strong adherence to orders. They follow their orders to the letter and without a moment's hesitation. They are excellent sharpshooters, using precise fire and iron resolve to destroy the enemies of the Emperor.

They fight in their dress uniforms, as "the bright colors and elaborate decoration on Mordian uniforms often mislead their enemies into thinking they are facing ceremonial troops with little combat experience, though this misapprehension is usually corrected as soon as they attempt to advance in the face of the Iron Guards' precise volleys and unyielding resolve." If you're bringing people in from somewhere else they don't have this uniform to wear.

It should also be noted "even in the face of the overwhelming daemonic hordes of Chaos, Iron Guard regiments will stand their ground, striking down their foe with disciplined fire; if forced to withdraw their lines will never break." Why GW did not give them Fearless or Iron Discipline or... something to represent this is anyone's guess. So I would not take their lack of SR on the table-top to represent that this unit is not just as special as the Catachan (just in a different manner).

I know about the Mordians they are good but they do not have specialized skills that cannot be trained only a special mindset.

Iron discipline and resolve can be trained and non mordian recuits can at the very least be trained to hold the line .

I just reread iron guard the replacements for Mordians where not simply anyone with a heartbeat.

The sergeant who scouted out the replacements from the local pdf specifically looked for those who could handle the rigors of life in the mordian iron guard he took two members from the local pdf.

Before that there was one non mordian in the squad a guy named Okre from a destroyed agri world.

at the end of the novel the few remaining civilian survivors get pressganged into the mordian 114th when the mordians are extracted from the planet.

So, the Mordian Iron Guard are essentially Preatorians. Or, Praetorians are the same as Mordians.

Either way, they sound like the same regiment. Just depends whether you want a Franco-Prussian War German regiment, or a British Zulu redcoat regiment.

 Tower75 wrote:
So, the Mordian Iron Guard are essentially Preatorians. Or, Praetorians are the same as Mordians.

Either way, they sound like the same regiment. Just depends whether you want a Franco-Prussian War German regiment, or a British Zulu redcoat regiment.

Yep the original models even had the same bodies haha. But the fluff is pretty much the same. Mordians came first so Praetorians are the copy. I just make up my own stuff for mine to avoid that.