Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Ugg Dune. I could not get myself to start the second after the finishing the first. That is one of the few occurences where I actually prefer the movie to the book.
As for Hunger Games, I have not read them but have seen the movies and can definently see the "young adult" theme. I do plan to read them at some point because it will most likely take all of about 2 days to complete them. But for the most part I will stick to novels with more depth (see: C.J. Cherryh, RR Martin, Joan Vinge, Brandon Sanderson etc.)
Forest hunter sept ~3500 guardians of the covenant 4th company ~ 6000
Warrior based hive fleet
And would you call yourself representative of the average teenager at the time?
I mean technically I was a pre-teen, but for my 'world view' as it were, yeah I was an average teen of that time period. I may have been the only one reading LotR, but I was not the only one reading books designed for older readers. When you think about it, 531 pages (according to wikipedia) isn't that much, when the average book is 300 pages or so, and it took me twice as long to read it than it took some of my peers to finish 1 book.
But then again, I was always an avid reader and was terrible with other aspects of my studies (feth you math!)
DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+ Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics
I haven't seen the movies, but I read the trilogy and enjoyed it. It is very much young adult science fiction, but I think a good example of that. I think it's deep enough to force the reader to ask questions (the hallmark of good sci-fi) but accessible enough to read and enjoy.
Like most series, it starts strong and tapers off, but it doesn't get that bad, remaining readable until the end. Unlike Dune, where most people should just stop at the first book. The second is acceptable, books 3-4 are trash, and then 5-6 start to get better again, but doesn't justify the time spend reading the middle third.
I would have loved it if Hunger Games was taught in HS rather then some of the junk I needed to read back then. There is very little sci-fi/fantasy on required reading lists, and there should be more.
Nevelon wrote: I would have loved it if Hunger Games was taught in HS rather then some of the junk I needed to read back then. There is very little sci-fi/fantasy on required reading lists, and there should be more.
From what I saw, the 9th and 10th grade English teachers are pretty much champing at the bit to put the Hunger Games out there. Like most people who read books, they've seen a few good things about the series 1) It has teachable moments in it (the questioning the reader, messages for teens, etc...) 2) It's popular with the kids they're teaching, and 3) The series itself isn't gak, so all parties involved don't mind reading the books.
The problem is that it's a series, so it makes it very difficult to make it a book that teachers can use in their lessons and cover a wide variety of content standards. Though since the first book can stand well enough on its own, the Hunger Games can be used with little issue... And by telling kids it's a series, they might get a few kids reading books 2 and 3 on their own volition.
DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+ Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics
I would have loved it if Hunger Games was taught in HS rather then some of the junk I needed to read back then. There is very little sci-fi/fantasy on required reading lists, and there should be more.
I agree. English teachers and professors seem to think that if its sci-fi that means its not good literature. I have explained and shown to numorous teachers how sci-fi tells the same stories and can impart the same or better teaching of morals, choices, and character growth than most non sci-fi. A story of of racism can be told just as easily with aliens as it can with different places on earth. And could even be better understood.
Forest hunter sept ~3500 guardians of the covenant 4th company ~ 6000
Warrior based hive fleet
FirePainter wrote: Ugg Dune. I could not get myself to start the second after the finishing the first. That is one of the few occurences where I actually prefer the movie to the book.
As for Hunger Games, I have not read them but have seen the movies and can definently see the "young adult" theme. I do plan to read them at some point because it will most likely take all of about 2 days to complete them. But for the most part I will stick to novels with more depth (see: C.J. Cherryh, RR Martin, Joan Vinge, Brandon Sanderson etc.)
I got each book for about £2 or £ on the Amazon Kindle store and read them all in a week. For that price they're worth a read I think.
GRR Martin is a great author, I finished ASOIAF last year.
Martin is great but he is frustrating me because he will NOT FINISH HIS BOOKS!!! Honestly he really needs to finish the series. I have this personal aversion to reading series that is not finished but his are really good and after reading them it is such a disapointment not to know how he will take the series further.
Forest hunter sept ~3500 guardians of the covenant 4th company ~ 6000
Warrior based hive fleet
I would have loved it if Hunger Games was taught in HS rather then some of the junk I needed to read back then. There is very little sci-fi/fantasy on required reading lists, and there should be more.
I agree. English teachers and professors seem to think that if its sci-fi that means its not good literature. I have explained and shown to numorous teachers how sci-fi tells the same stories and can impart the same or better teaching of morals, choices, and character growth than most non sci-fi. A story of of racism can be told just as easily with aliens as it can with different places on earth. And could even be better understood.
Like Animal Farm. Or Fahrenheit 451. Or Brave New World, Or Chronsicles of Narnia. etc.
Oh wait. They teach those as pretty standard HS lit?
Huh. English Teachers must not think sci fi/ fantasy is as bad as you think they do.
Like Animal Farm. Or Fahrenheit 451. Or Brave New World, Or Chronsicles of Narnia. etc.
Oh wait. They teach those as pretty standard HS lit?
Huh. English Teachers must not think sci fi/ fantasy is as bad as you think they do.
I do not class animal farm as sci-fi its political satire. 451 is good and a great classic. In my opinion Brave New World is a terrible book. And Nania is also a good series however that was not on my high school or college reading list unfortunately. My high school did not even have Ender's Game on the reading material.
Forest hunter sept ~3500 guardians of the covenant 4th company ~ 6000
Warrior based hive fleet
I have very mixed feelings about the Hunger Games. I really like the first book, it's written to an ok standard and quite engaging. The second just reruns the plot of the first, and takes too long to get going before rushing to the end, but the third is where I really find myself conflicted.
I like the change in focus from games (albeit twisted ones) to all-out war, but I really, really hate the ending. The whole idea of her
Spoiler:
shooting Coin and marrying Peeta really annoyed me. I get why she did what she did, but it's the fact she got away with murder on very weak grounds and I'm not a fan of the fact she only married Peeta out of sympathy, after Gale waited so long. A lot of my friends disagree with me over that, though, so I have a feeling I may be in a minority.
So yeah, I like them on the whole, but like Harry Potter, they are perfectly readable but nowhere near worth the huge amount of hype.
Slightly OT. but still part of the discussion, I fully agree with those who think that' kids' literature is great stuff. As an English Lit student, I actually have a surprising dislike for what would be seen as 'adult' novels. I can appreciate them from a literary perspective, but there is something about kids and teen books that is lacking in adult stuff, a sense of adventure almost.
There's plenty of great stuff out there in the kids/teen genre, and in recent years, it's got even better. Michael Grant's 'Gone' saga is one of the greatest series I've ever read, and Patrick Ness's 'Chaos Walking' trilogy is just stunning. Even the stuff aimed at 11-13 year olds like Skulduggery Pleasant or Percy Jackson are worth reading, just for the escapism to a more exciting and innocent world.
Given the choice between reading the latest 'literary hit' and a good old adventure, I'm going for the latter every time.
...I'm not a fan of the fact she only married Peeta out of sympathy, after Gale waited so long.
Spoiler:
Peeta might be a disgusting Nice Guy, but Gale's the war criminal who killed Katniss's little sister. In the race to the bottom, Gale is the clear winner.
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis
...I'm not a fan of the fact she only married Peeta out of sympathy, after Gale waited so long.
Spoiler:
Peeta might be a disgusting Nice Guy, but Gale's the war criminal who killed Katniss's little sister. In the race to the bottom, Gale is the clear winner.
Spoiler:
He built the bomb, but I doubt he had anything to do with ordering the attack. I just find it annoying that Katniss is enough of a b**ch to lead him on and give him hope then go with Peeta (who tried to kill her)
I like the change in focus from games (albeit twisted ones) to all-out war, but I really, really hate the ending. The whole idea of her
Spoiler:
shooting Coin and marrying Peeta really annoyed me. I get why she did what she did, but it's the fact she got away with murder on very weak grounds and I'm not a fan of the fact she only married Peeta out of sympathy, after Gale waited so long. A lot of my friends disagree with me over that, though, so I have a feeling I may be in a minority.
Aye, I disagree too.
Spoiler:
Its not sympathy that prompts her to choose Peeta nor that she made Gale wait for so long that he left. She didn't want anyone's love.
From the very beginning of the series, she rejected the romantic advances of both Gale and Peeta, regarding love as detrimental to survival - both for herself and her family. Shes also terrified of her own children being reaped for the Games. She becomes fond of Peeta as a friend, but won't let herself reciprocate his feelings. She regards Gale more as a brotherly figure.
She didn't want their love, only their friendship.
Its only at the very end of the series that she realises that Peeta is the only one who can understand her through their shared experiences. Katniss and Peeta both appear to suffer from PTSD, and both want to heal and move on. Katniss realises that she doesn't want to be motivated by hatred - she doesn't hate the citizens of the Capitol, in fact she begins to regard several of them as her friends.
Peeta represents healing and hope. Hes motivated by compassion and love. He regards the idea of a 76th Hunger Games using the Capitol's own children as abhorrent. Peeta is
The dandelion in spring.
Whereas Gale is motivated by revenge and hatred. He despises the Capitol and desire revenge. Hes even eager to massacre the Disctrict Peacekeepers (who are more or less slave soldiers manipulated by propaganda). His tactics and ideology lead to the death of Katniss's own sister, along with dozens of Capitol children. Gale became unrecognisable to her - I actually think Gale is a somewhat despicable character by the end.
Gale is
the same Fire that Katniss finds in herself
.
Its said several times through the series that Katniss should "Remember who the real enemy is. The real enemy is not the Capitol, nor President Snow himself. Its tyranny and oppression, no matter who's face it is.
Spoiler:
Katniss encounters President Snow and he reminds her that they agreed never to lie to each other. He denies being responsible for the fire bombing that killed her sister and the Capitol children because it would have been pointless. He was already defeated and about to surrender, and would have escaped the Capitol if he had access to aircraft. Its at this point that she realises that Alma Coin and possibly Gale were responsible, and that Alma Coin will be just as much of a tyrant as Snow was.
So she decides to assassinate Coin, instead of executing Snow (who still dies regardless); and a less politically ambitious leader (Commander Paylor) who isn't extreme like Coin was becomes the new leader.
I think there were some political machinations behind the scenes of Katniss's trial. I think the new political elite were aware that Coin was responsible for the bombing and attempted to have Katniss killed (probably by betraying her location to the Capitol Peacekeepers) and that she would have become a new tyrant like Snow. Katniss is also the figurehead for the rebellion, the Mockingjay. Katniss was a very influentual figure - her support would have helped to choose the next leader of Panem.
Finding not guilty by reason of insanity was a coverup, a white wash to prevent the truth coming out about the atrocities committed by the Rebels and the true intentions of President Coin (to become a new Dictator instead of a true democratic leader). She's labelled insane, and shunted off back home to her burned out mass graveyard of a District where she can't cause any more trouble for the new political elite by exposing the truth.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/16 19:00:12
Paradigm wrote: Slightly OT. but still part of the discussion, I fully agree with those who think that' kids' literature is great stuff. As an English Lit student, I actually have a surprising dislike for what would be seen as 'adult' novels. I can appreciate them from a literary perspective, but there is something about kids and teen books that is lacking in adult stuff, a sense of adventure almost.
This is a really strong point. I have been wondering why so many adults are reading YA fiction. This might be it.
Or it could be that in our current culture; people never progress beyond YA mentality and hence are drwan to fiction created for them.
Or I could hav eno idea and I should be happy about anything that gets people to read more!
Support Blood and Spectacles Publishing:
https://www.patreon.com/Bloodandspectaclespublishing
He built the bomb, but I doubt he had anything to do with ordering the attack. I just find it annoying that Katniss is enough of a b**ch to lead him on and give him hope then go with Peeta (who tried to kill her)
Spoiler:
He invented the tactic, of using a double-tap series of traps or bombings to kill first responders and maximise casualties. He clearly wasn't responsible for this particular instance of its use, as he wouldn't have allowed Katniss into the dangerzone if he knew. Katniss herself is severely burned and spends several weeks recovering. But it is clear that it was his tactic and ideology, adapted by Alma Coin that killed her sister. She knows it, he knows it and he doesn't even bother denying that he is in some way responsible, at which point he leaves, gets a nice cushy job in District 2 and
a new pair of lips to kiss.
Gale to me comes across as one of the most selfish and hate driven characters in the whole series.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/12/16 19:21:46
Peeta might be a disgusting Nice Guy, but Gale's the war criminal who killed Katniss's little sister. In the race to the bottom, Gale is the clear winner.
Spoiler:
He built the bomb, but I doubt he had anything to do with ordering the attack. I just find it annoying that Katniss is enough of a b**ch to lead him on and give him hope then go with Peeta (who tried to kill her)
Spoiler:
He built the bomb specifically to kill people like Katniss's sister. It's like burning down a retirement village and then saying "Sorry, I didn't mean to kill your grandmother."
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis
I had never read Dune until last year, I've still yet to read Ender's Game, I read The Giver when I was 11, and I've never heard of the first two...
To be fair, unlike most 10th graders I know, I read exactly 1 book in my tenth grade English class. So, when people are reading To Kill a Mockingbird, Catcher in the Rye, Of Mice and Men, etc... I was watching movies that had no bearing on my ability to critically analyze literature.
DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+ Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics
Some fair points there in defence of Peeta. I'm not quite convinced yet, but next time I read the book I'm certainly going to try looking at it from that angle.
@SCE:
Spoiler:
Like I said, I get why she killed Coin, it's more the fact that she isn't locked up for the rest of her life because of it. Although you do provide solid reasoning, it would hardly be effective to sentence the icon of the rebellion to death or life imprisonment.
I think Gale is hate-driven because Katniss abandons him, whether she is romantically involved with Peeta before the end doesn't matter, that's what Gale sees and why he becomes that way. The problem I have with Katniss in book 3 is the way she almost gives him hope and then takes it away, and in the first book she does the same in faking her love for Peeta. Both Gale and Peeta genuinely loved her, and she played them both just enough to give them hope. I just don't like Katniss as a character, she hardly treats either of them fairly.
@AH:
Spoiler:
Again, a fair point. It's been a while since I've read them, so I may be misremembering part of it, hence maybe judging the situation on hazy memories. Like I say, I'll look at it from the other angle when I read them again and see if I change my mind.
@Easy E: I think a lot of it comes down to why people read. For the stuff I have to read for Lit classes, most of it is'adult' stuff and that seems to just be an excuse to fill it with swearing, gore or sex, or just to plod along being 'literary' while nothing really happens. On the other hand, in most YA fiction, you're guaranteed to have a fairly pacy plot, and while it may be not as 'artistic' it's enjoyable. The most well-written book in the world is no good if it just goes on for 300 pages of nothing.
There's an innocence to kids/YA stuff that I like, I read to escape from this world, hence my dislike of real-life drama or prose. While there are a few exceptions, most of the novels I love are Sci-fi or Fantasy, not just because I've always loved those genres but because there's something different about them. Whether it's spaceships or dragons, there's something in there that isn't present in stuff about 'real life'. I don't deny that real life is interesting, but I live it every day and I read to get away from it, not see more of it. That's something you find noticeably less of in adult stuff, and far more of in YA fiction.
Both Gale and Peeta genuinely loved her, and she played them both just enough to give them hope. I just don't like Katniss as a character, she hardly treats either of them fairly.
My interpretation was she did not welcome their love - they forced it onto her and forced her to choose between them, when all she desired was their friendship.
Spoiler:
She considered Gale as a brotherly figure, not a romantic interest. And Peeta was always "the Boy with the Bread/ The Dandelion in spring", who's act of charty saved her life and her family.
She did not want romance - she thought it would be a weakness that would threaten her survival and her family's survival, and feared her own children being reaped for the Games. Then Peeta forces her into a fake public romance by revealing his feelings for her (she doesn't understand that its genuine until after the first Games), and shes coerced by Haymitch into playing along for the cameras. Then Gale becomes jealous and abrasive with her, despite knowing full well that she had no choice and has to continue doing it to protect him and his family as much as herself and Peeta.
After she was rescued from the 75th Games and she joined the Rebels with Gale at her side, there was the potential for an actual relationship with Gale, but it was undermined by her knowledge of Peeta's deterioration in the Capitol. She owed Peeta a lot (and vice versa), and her guilt over his torture and brainwashing was a barrier to any relationship with Gale.
In the end, Gale betrays her. The only way I could see Katniss choosing Gale was if she gave in to her hatred and desire for revenge. Like I said...
Peeta = compassion and healing, hope for the future, and forgiving your enemies.
Gale = hatred for your enemy, and the desire for revenge.
On the other hand, in most YA fiction, you're guaranteed to have a fairly pacy plot, and while it may be not as 'artistic' it's enjoyable. The most well-written book in the world is no good if it just goes on for 300 pages of nothing.
Aye. I love GRR Martin's ASOIAF books, the universe, Lore and Characters are fantastic but my god does he drag it out with boring detail and stop-start-stop pacing.
There's an innocence to kids/YA stuff that I like, I read to escape from this world, hence my dislike of real-life drama or prose. While there are a few exceptions, most of the novels I love are Sci-fi or Fantasy, not just because I've always loved those genres but because there's something different about them.
Have you read the Saxon Stories series by Bernard Cornwell? Its a pseudo-historical series set in Dark Age England, during the time when King Alfred was leading the resistance and eventual fightback (later continued by his son Edward) against repeated Viking invasions of the various Saxon Kingdoms. The pacing is fast and exciting with a definite sense of adventure. The protagonist gets raised by Vikings; 'goes Viking' (raiding) against other Vikings; challenges many powerful Viking leaders to glorious single combat; makes a reputation for himself as a formidable but unpredictable leader and warrior with questionable loyalties (being a Pagan Saxon raised by Vikings but fighting for the Christian Saxons with many old friends on the enemy side).
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/12/16 20:23:07
Its about Godwin of Wessex a.k.a. Godwin Wulfnothson, the father of the eventual King Harold Godwinson; during the last successful Danish Invasion of England by King Cnut. Godwin participates in the English resistance, then becomes a leading figure in the post invasion Anglo-Danish England under Cnut (as Earl of Wessex).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/16 20:29:44
@Easy E: I think a lot of it comes down to why people read. For the stuff I have to read for Lit classes, most of it is'adult' stuff and that seems to just be an excuse to fill it with swearing, gore or sex, or just to plod along being 'literary' while nothing really happens. On the other hand, in most YA fiction, you're guaranteed to have a fairly pacy plot, and while it may be not as 'artistic' it's enjoyable. The most well-written book in the world is no good if it just goes on for 300 pages of nothing.
So you're saying you dislike the Wheel of Time series?? Or any Tom Clancy novel out there. I agree that there are some "authors" out there that put things into books just because, and many times has no bearing on the character or the character's development. One of the few modern writers who I think gets it mostly right, is George RR Martin. Is incest on its own really necessary? Probably not. But it IS fairly central to the themes of certain characters in his GoT books. At the same token, books like 50 Shades probably shouldnt be considered "literature"
When I was in middle school, I had to read The Giver, and Night (by Elie Weisel). Then In HS, the big to do's on the Mandatory Reading was The Odyssey, and then Romeo and Juliet. None of which were my cup of tea. As I've gotten older though, I DO have a copy of the Odyssey (and Illiad), but still find myself drawn to the more macabre sort of book.
@Easy E: I think a lot of it comes down to why people read. For the stuff I have to read for Lit classes, most of it is'adult' stuff and that seems to just be an excuse to fill it with swearing, gore or sex, or just to plod along being 'literary' while nothing really happens. On the other hand, in most YA fiction, you're guaranteed to have a fairly pacy plot, and while it may be not as 'artistic' it's enjoyable. The most well-written book in the world is no good if it just goes on for 300 pages of nothing.
So you're saying you dislike the Wheel of Time series?? Or any Tom Clancy novel out there. I agree that there are some "authors" out there that put things into books just because, and many times has no bearing on the character or the character's development. One of the few modern writers who I think gets it mostly right, is George RR Martin. Is incest on its own really necessary? Probably not. But it IS fairly central to the themes of certain characters in his GoT books. At the same token, books like 50 Shades probably shouldnt be considered "literature"
When I was in middle school, I had to read The Giver, and Night (by Elie Weisel). Then In HS, the big to do's on the Mandatory Reading was The Odyssey, and then Romeo and Juliet. None of which were my cup of tea. As I've gotten older though, I DO have a copy of the Odyssey (and Illiad), but still find myself drawn to the more macabre sort of book.
No, you misunderstand. I'm fine with things being in books for a reason, but what I was getting at is that, if I'm reading for escapism, there are some things I'd rather not come across that often, and that kind of stuff tends to crop up a lot more in adult stuff than YA stuff, and adult books tend to be far more based in reality and with fewer things I enjoy. I was just pointing out that the stuff I've come across while studying tended to be less enjoyable and written for a different purpose than escapism, which is primarily what I read for.
Ensis Ferrae wrote: At the same token, books like 50 Shades probably shouldnt be considered "literature"
Fifty Shades of Grey could be literature if the author wasn't a stupid bigot. While it is abysmally written, you could write practically the same story and end up with an acclaimed piece of literature, just by recognising that Christian Grey is the villain. BDSM is not just domestic abuse with the serial numbers filed off, and an author who understood that could create a nice piece of "oscar bait" about Ana's eventual escape from a predator who uses his wealth as a weapon and BDSM as a mask.
"When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up."
-C.S. Lewis
I think the Hunger Games could do with a 4th book. Not a sequel as such, but another book set in the same universe from a different character's perspective to expand on the story and resolve loose ends.
The country has just endured a brutal civil war with horrific atrocities committed by both sides, seen the Mockingjay apparently go nuts and assasinate the President who lead the Rebels to victory.
I want to know more about the politics and future of the new Panem and get answers to questions.
Spoiler:
Did Alma Coin really try to have Katniss killed?
Did Alma Coin order the false flag attack that killed her sister?
Who else was involved - Plutarch Heavensbee?
What else is the new political elite covering up?
Just how involved was Gale in that attack - did he have foreknowledge?
What sort of a country will Panem become? Will it revert to an oppressive totalitarian state like President Coin wanted, or will it become a democratic and free society?
How are Katniss and Peeta doing?
Will Katniss play a role and influence the future of Panem, or will she keep to herself in District 12?
How is Annie Cresta coping with the death of her husband Finnick?
What is Gale doing in District 2? Will he ever be reconciliated with Katniss?
Will Gale learn to let go of his hatred and anger, or will he have a negative effect on Panem's politics?
And will the Rebels inflict one last Hunger Games on the children of the Capitol?
The ending was very vague and bittersweet, and that just drives me nuts.
A book from Gale's perspective could explore his struggle with his dark nature (his hatred, anger and desire for revenge) and his role in the future of Panem. What sort of society will the new Panem become? Will it become free and democratic, or revert back to its barbaric oppression; and what side will Gale take?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/12/17 00:08:54
Forest hunter sept ~3500 
guardians of the covenant 4th company ~ 6000
Warrior based hive fleet
Ultramarines, 3rd Co. and friends, 16k+ 
4k 
Competition Index
Or any Tom Clancy novel out there. I agree that there are some "authors" out there that put things into books just because, and many times has no bearing on the character or the character's development. One of the few modern writers who I think gets it mostly right, is George 