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So me and my friend were discussing 40k when we found a rules interaction that we weren't sure how to resolve.

If a squad of necrons is holding the relic in a relic mission and are pulled through the monolith's portal what happens?
-the relic goes with them
-they immediately drop the relic and go through
-they go through and the relic is dropped 6in closer to the monolith than the squad was(effectively moving towards the monolith 6in)
-they simply can't use the monoliths ability

Those are the possibilities we came up with though I am leaning towards the second or first one. What do you think dakka?

They drop the relic before moving, assuming the monolith is pulling them more than 6".

From the Warhammer 40,000 Main Rulebook FAQ:

Page 131 – The Relic, Dropping the Relic
Change the second sentence of the first paragraph to “If the model falls back, the Relic is dropped automatically before the model performs its Fall Back move. If the model is removed as a casualty, or is in any other way removed from the table – whether voluntarily or otherwise – the Relic is dropped automatically and placed within 1” of the spot where the model last was before it left the table. Note that embarking onto a Transport is an exception to this, as detailed below.”

Pyrian wrote:
They drop the relic before moving, assuming the monolith is pulling them more than 6".

The monolith rule does not say that it moves them, only that they disembark from it. The relic rule clearly states that embarking on a vehicle does not cause a model to drop the relic, nor does it say that disembarking from a vehicle does.

 Ghaz wrote:
From the Warhammer 40,000 Main Rulebook FAQ:

Page 131 – The Relic, Dropping the Relic
Change the second sentence of the first paragraph to “If the model falls back, the Relic is dropped automatically before the model performs its Fall Back move. If the model is removed as a casualty, or is in any other way removed from the table – whether voluntarily or otherwise – the Relic is dropped automatically and placed within 1” of the spot where the model last was before it left the table. Note that embarking onto a Transport is an exception to this, as detailed below.”

The monolith rule does not remove them from the bored. It only puts them "inside" it, so that they can disembark from it. They don't go into reserve, or anything like that, they go where ever any model goes when it's 'inside' a transport, and then immediately have to exit.

I'm not saying I agree with that they keep the relic, I'm saying that the two explanations of the rule do not disprove the hypothesis.

Yes; a model that embarks a vehicle is removed from the board. First sentence in embarking a vehicle, from memort

Necroes wrote:

Pyrian wrote:
They drop the relic before moving, assuming the monolith is pulling them more than 6".

The monolith rule does not say that it moves them, only that they disembark from it. The relic rule clearly states that embarking on a vehicle does not cause a model to drop the relic, nor does it say that disembarking from a vehicle does.

 Ghaz wrote:
From the Warhammer 40,000 Main Rulebook FAQ:

Page 131 – The Relic, Dropping the Relic
Change the second sentence of the first paragraph to “If the model falls back, the Relic is dropped automatically before the model performs its Fall Back move. If the model is removed as a casualty, or is in any other way removed from the table – whether voluntarily or otherwise – the Relic is dropped automatically and placed within 1” of the spot where the model last was before it left the table. Note that embarking onto a Transport is an exception to this, as detailed below.”

The monolith rule does not remove them from the bored. It only puts them "inside" it, so that they can disembark from it. They don't go into reserve, or anything like that, they go where ever any model goes when it's 'inside' a transport, and then immediately have to exit.

I'm not saying I agree with that they keep the relic, I'm saying that the two explanations of the rule do not disprove the hypothesis.

It's not a transport vehicle, so does not fall under the exception for embarking onto a transport.

 Nem wrote:
It's not a transport vehicle, so does not fall under the exception for embarking onto a transport.

But they never actually embark onto it, they just disembark from somewhere else on the board. On the list of things that causes a model to drop the relic, disembarking is not one of them.

I only pointed out that embarking on a vehicle does not cause the relic to be dropped because, for all intents and purposes, they go into whatever extra-dimensional space any model goes into whenever they embark onto a vehicle, and then immediately disembark from the monolith. They never actually embark onto it. However, they also never do anything that the rules would qualify as a 'move.'

Yes, the RAI of the situation would say that most likely they just leave it, but so far as I can find, the RAW lets them take the relic with them.

They are, however, first removed from the table. Otherwise they could nto disembark.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
They are, however, first removed from the table. Otherwise they could nto disembark.

Why? Does disembarking have a prerequisite of being removed from the table independently from the need to first be embarked?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Why? Does disembarking have a prerequisite of being removed from the table independently from the need to first be embarked?

Because being removed from the table is the only alternative to them moving to wherever the Monolith portal is.

 insaniak wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Why? Does disembarking have a prerequisite of being removed from the table independently from the need to first be embarked?

Because being removed from the table is the only alternative to them moving to wherever the Monolith portal is.

You can't just move them the way you would in the Movement phase?

 insaniak wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Why? Does disembarking have a prerequisite of being removed from the table independently from the need to first be embarked?

Because being removed from the table is the only alternative to them moving to wherever the Monolith portal is.

As much as i agree with you in my head all i can think is "Citation needed"

I would play and believe it is intended that the relic is dropped. But i cannot see that it is written that way.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Why? Does disembarking have a prerequisite of being removed from the table independently from the need to first be embarked?

Because being removed from the table is the only alternative to them moving to wherever the Monolith portal is.

You can't just move them the way you would in the Movement phase?

No, because the Portal is not moving them X inches, it is making them appear as if they had just disembarked

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Why? Does disembarking have a prerequisite of being removed from the table independently from the need to first be embarked?

Because being removed from the table is the only alternative to them moving to wherever the Monolith portal is.

You can't just move them the way you would in the Movement phase?

No, because the Portal is not moving them X inches, it is making them appear as if they had just disembarked

Which nowhere states that they leave the table. You need permission to do something in 40k - in this chain of events, permission to leave the table is conspicuously absent.

So they cannot 40k-move, and cannot be removed and placed.
Guess youre stuck then.

Or, drop the relic.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So they cannot 40k-move, and cannot be removed and placed.
Guess youre stuck then.

Or, drop the relic.

Or, disembark from the front of the monolith. With the relic. You have explicit permission to disembark, as distinct from a move (although a standard move is included)

Fidn permission to remove the model from the table in order to then place it in base contact with the monolith portal, as required when disembarking.

You are claiming we cannot remove the model from the table. If that is the case, you dont get to disembark, as that entire rule is written in the context of a unit being embarked being removed from the table.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Fidn permission to remove the model from the table in order to then place it in base contact with the monolith portal, as required when disembarking.

You are claiming we cannot remove the model from the table. If that is the case, you dont get to disembark, as that entire rule is written in the context of a unit being embarked being removed from the table.

It may be written with that context in mind, but the monolith rule removes the requirement of being removed from the table.

Is there a rule that says you must first leave the table before being placed into base contact with something?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Why? Does disembarking have a prerequisite of being removed from the table independently from the need to first be embarked?

Because being removed from the table is the only alternative to them moving to wherever the Monolith portal is.

You can't just move them the way you would in the Movement phase?

No, because the Portal is not moving them X inches, it is making them appear as if they had just disembarked

Either way, if it is more than 6" the relic drops anyways.

Fragile wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Why? Does disembarking have a prerequisite of being removed from the table independently from the need to first be embarked?

Because being removed from the table is the only alternative to them moving to wherever the Monolith portal is.

You can't just move them the way you would in the Movement phase?

No, because the Portal is not moving them X inches, it is making them appear as if they had just disembarked

Either way, if it is more than 6" the relic drops anyways.

If I am not mistaken, that only refers to the relic being "moved" six inches, rather than being Teleported six inches, or whathaveyou.

Where does the monolith remove this requirement? Page and graph will suffice

Remember, specific wording required

page 47, of the 5th ed. Necron codex.

We are told that the unit 'phases out' and 'disembarks' from the monoliths portal. We are also told to treat the move exactly like disembarking from a vehicle. At no point however are we even given specific instruction to remove the models from the table. (as opposed to simply repositioning them from their former location to where the portal on the monolith is)

That said, 'phases out' could mean they are removed from the table; but that would be an inference, not a clear-cut rule.

Given however it does explicitly count as a 'move'? If the distance is greater than 6 inches, the relic drops as per the rule for such.

I would go with the Relic wording on p131: "...can never move more than 6" in any Phase." Which then bans you from teleporting as long as you hold the Relic. (of more than 6" in that phase)



Automatically Appended Next Post:
To which i will add the definition of move: noun 1. A change of place, position, or state.

Which would infer: where is the Relic at the beginning of the phase? Where is it at the end of the phase? More than 6"? You may not perform such operation.

Ah, 40k has its own definition of move, distinct from "displace"

Again - there is nothing stating, explicitly, that you do not remove the model from the table prior to disembarking. Given it is a requirement upon disembarking (as the whole basic rule assumes off table status) yo uneed explicit permission to disembark despite never being removed.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ah, 40k has its own definition of move, distinct from "displace"

Again - there is nothing stating, explicitly, that you do not remove the model from the table prior to disembarking. Given it is a requirement upon disembarking (as the whole basic rule assumes off table status) yo uneed explicit permission to disembark despite never being removed.

Could you point out what part of the 'disembarking' (specifically) rule indicates you remove the models from the table by default as part of that action? (such that your statement that it is a requirement makes sense)

Read the parents statement...the enterprise disembark section is written with the context that you are already embarked, and thus off table

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Why? Does disembarking have a prerequisite of being removed from the table independently from the need to first be embarked?

Because being removed from the table is the only alternative to them moving to wherever the Monolith portal is.

You can't just move them the way you would in the Movement phase?

If a unit moves more than 6" in any phase, the Relic is dropped. So if you go with this interpretation (which causes other problems down the line), the Relic WILL be dropped--just not sure whether it's before or after the disembark. I think it's before they move....

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Read the parents statement...the enterprise disembark section is written with the context that you are already embarked, and thus off table

read it just fine the first time thanks. Are you going to actually (as in quote the actual rules) back up your statement? Or are you content to presume I'm somehow unable to read despite all evidence to the contrary rather than factually support your contention?

It's entirely possible for another rule to reference the 'disembarking' rule-set without having anything to do with the 'embarking' one. In this case for example, the disembarking rules are quite clearly utilized despite the monolith not being a transport vehicle and no previous embarkation having ever taken place.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Fragile wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Why? Does disembarking have a prerequisite of being removed from the table independently from the need to first be embarked?

Because being removed from the table is the only alternative to them moving to wherever the Monolith portal is.

You can't just move them the way you would in the Movement phase?

No, because the Portal is not moving them X inches, it is making them appear as if they had just disembarked

Either way, if it is more than 6" the relic drops anyways.

If I am not mistaken, that only refers to the relic being "moved" six inches, rather than being Teleported six inches, or whathaveyou.

"Moved". If the original spot is more than 6" from the new spot (whip out your tape and check) then the relic has "moved" more than 6" in one phase. That is the simplest and most effective definition of the rule.

Fragile wrote:
"Moved". If the original spot is more than 6" from the new spot (whip out your tape and check) then the relic has "moved" more than 6" in one phase. That is the simplest and most effective definition of the rule.

This

Ultimately that is what is allowed and where any shenanigans to get any further than 6" ignored =P