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 Dakkamite wrote:
(...)
Choppy players don't necessarily want to be broken, but to get equal treatment rather than ridiculous double standards

When I see "models can shoot absolutely fine from deep strike or outflank, but assault troops can go feth themselves just because" I want to rip the rulebook in half and punch the author in the face.

If outflanking/DS melee units could only be hit by snap shots, or were in some other manner protected from the typical solution of 'drop a pie plate on it' then that would probably be enough to even it out

100% agreed.

The solution "units coming from reserve can only be hit by snap shots" is my favorite by far . It fixes the problem of units entering the game and dying, while providing the other player time to find a tactical solution.

A possible problem is that shooty units coming from reserve get the same bonus and perhaps some of them don´t really need it. Shooty terminators, sternguard, chaos termicide, obliterators, horrors.... all of them get buffed. The easy fix "they can only use snap shots too" kills the basic terminators, already in a bad state.


About vehicles being "fragile" against assault, that´s the way it should be. Any war that includes tanks have people surrounding the tanks, protecting them from close combat, because tanks are highly vulnerable to some random guy getting near and using a grenade. It is a realistic aspect of 40k, and there are not many of these. It also ended the razorback/chimera spam in 5th and, more important, ended the "just moving all tanks ahead" playing style, with chimeras full of infantry ramming through enemy infantry. This shouldn´t work: getting tanks near infantry is a really bad idea.

The only exception are walkers. This was addressed in 5th edition: you can only hit a walker with a 6. Fixed.

Aren't terminators SnP or Relentless or some gak?

That could overrule snapshots only

Edit: Hit walkers on 6 is insanely good, I'd actually use the damn things

 Dakkamite wrote:
Aren't terminators SnP or Relentless or some gak?

That could overrule snapshots only

Edit: Hit walkers on 6 is insanely good, I'd actually use the damn things

Wait, wait... The "only with a 6" thing is only applied to grenades against a walker, sorry for the lazy quoting. They still didn´t get a chance against MCs. But walkers are usually cheaper and being hard to kill through grenades made them a viable option.

Full quote from 5th edition: Quote: "Walkers can make an assault even if they fired heavy or rapid fire weapons (...) Grenades and Melta Bombs can be used against a Walker. A model will only manage to score a hit with a grenade against a walker on the roll of 6. However, if the Walker is Stunned or Immovilised at the start of the Assault Phase, the attackers roll to hit based on the normal comparison of WS." Page 73 5th edition rulebook, "Walkers and Assaults".

Losing this rule was a completely senseless nerf to all assault walkers, to the point that nobody uses them any more.

<mode rant on> Seriously did somebody tested it before doing the change? Anybody? So a squad of ten basic space marines have a decent chance of taking down 6 195 points Defilers in a turn? Are we to suppose that someone playtested this?? It is a specific rule for a specific type of unit against a specific type of weapon, it could have been tested in five minutes. Come on<mode rant off>

Lots of input here guys, thanks! And a special thank you to those who are trying out the rules. I saw some good input and will be tossing the ideas around with the DRAL Team. The two rules most succinctly and liekly to be added or revised will be:

Outflanking Units: Units arriving via Outflank can only be hit by snap shots in the following Shooting Phase of the Opponent's turn.

Shooting at Flyers: We must bolster to the "cover save" we are affording zooming flyers so that it cannot be so easily ignores by cover ignoring weapons... looking at you, Tau.

Thirdly, I will be removing the rules changes that are not meant to be included in the DRAL Rules. For some reason this keeps confusing people. I included them, the rules for Land Raiders for example, as a fun extra. The more traffic this thread gets the more people seem to be confused. Sorry for that, its on me.

Thanks guys, really. And please, if you are interested in quick and competitive games that balance out the assault element with the shooting element of 40K, give the DRAL Rules a try!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Please review the original post for some updates based on your input, Dakka!

Tyranid guy bought a hive crone under your rules this guy has no saves when shot at by a quad gun. We think this a bit unfair as in 40k he can jink for an extra save. Dive and evade now include an 5+ invun In addition to boosting cover to 2+ due to tau guy fielding skyfire misslesides, dang that's a lot of s7
In other news we recruited an ork player and an IG player into our new rule system.
Ork dude is loving the assault changes, seems a lot more happy now he doesn't get beaten up at the 40k table. He beat IG guy in a close run game through commando use and the fact that he can now hit Valkyries with cannons. IG guy beat my new space marines the armor saves for vehicles work brilliantly if you have forgotten
AV10 has 4+ armour
AV11 has 3+ armour (rhinos now have 3+ save like marines its so cute )
AV12 has 2+ armor (dreadnoughts are now awesome and chimeras need las cannons to be hurt)
AV 13 has 2 + armour and a 5+ invunrable
AV 14 has 2+armour and 4+ invunrable (land raiders absorb tons of fire and leman Russes are a bit too good but IG does suffer in the new rules)
Ork dude


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vector strikes are now ap 2 under the vehicle armor changes valkaries got 2+ saves against hive crones and we agreed it wasnt fair we retooled it to allow cover saves flyers can opt to skyfire and so ignore the cover generated by other flyers for vector strikes. Quad guns now have a hard time getting through 2+ armour so people have started using the Icarus lascannon instead. Except against tyranid guy who is using mawlocs to kill gun crews to save his new crone who has currently haywired my stormtalon to death.

Keep em coming DRAL ,we like our new game but its still a bit rough. And the 40k team don't like it. Also can we get an update on what DRAL stands for?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should explain that the true 40k loyalists do not like us playing around with new rules, hence its hard to get them to play on our table, eldar guy was a bit harsh on our changes. IG seems to like the added durability of vehicles but is trying to adapt to flyer nerfs and cc buffs leading to interesting combos.

As for trying to nerf to markerlights dives for 5+ invun have kept railguns away and the armor rules mean that often armor saves are better than cover.

 Blackskull wrote:
Tyranid guy bought a hive crone under your rules this guy has no saves when shot at by a quad gun. We think this a bit unfair as in 40k he can jink for an extra save. Dive and evade now include an 5+ invun In addition to boosting cover to 2+ due to tau guy fielding skyfire misslesides, dang that's a lot of s7
In other news we recruited an ork player and an IG player into our new rule system.
Ork dude is loving the assault changes, seems a lot more happy now he doesn't get beaten up at the 40k table. He beat IG guy in a close run game through commando use and the fact that he can now hit Valkyries with cannons. IG guy beat my new space marines the armor saves for vehicles work brilliantly if you have forgotten
AV10 has 4+ armour
AV11 has 3+ armour (rhinos now have 3+ save like marines its so cute )
AV12 has 2+ armor (dreadnoughts are now awesome and chimeras need las cannons to be hurt)
AV 13 has 2 + armour and a 5+ invunrable
AV 14 has 2+armour and 4+ invunrable (land raiders absorb tons of fire and leman Russes are a bit too good but IG does suffer in the new rules)
Ork dude


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vector strikes are now ap 2 under the vehicle armor changes valkaries got 2+ saves against hive crones and we agreed it wasnt fair we retooled it to allow cover saves flyers can opt to skyfire and so ignore the cover generated by other flyers for vector strikes. Quad guns now have a hard time getting through 2+ armour so people have started using the Icarus lascannon instead. Except against tyranid guy who is using mawlocs to kill gun crews to save his new crone who has currently haywired my stormtalon to death.

Keep em coming DRAL ,we like our new game but its still a bit rough. And the 40k team don't like it. Also can we get an update on what DRAL stands for?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should explain that the true 40k loyalists do not like us playing around with new rules, hence its hard to get them to play on our table, eldar guy was a bit harsh on our changes. IG seems to like the added durability of vehicles but is trying to adapt to flyer nerfs and cc buffs leading to interesting combos.

As for trying to nerf to markerlights dives for 5+ invun have kept railguns away and the armor rules mean that often armor saves are better than cover.

I am so pleased that you and your gaming group are trying out and enjoying (mostly) the DRAL Rules. I love that you are trying out your own as well. This is a community effort!

I have a question. What rules interaction made the Nid Hive Crone go down like a JV cheerleader?

Also, where di dyou get those rules for AV armor saves and how do they work? That was not something contemplated by our team of developers. EDIT: We did "contemplate" this idea but we decided that it was not worth implementing.

I am really excited that your Ork player had some new life breathed into his army!!!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
More updates on the OP

 Deuce11 wrote:

 Blackskull wrote:
Tyranid guy bought a hive crone under your rules this guy has no saves when shot at by a quad gun. We think this a bit unfair as in 40k he can jink for an extra save. Dive and evade now include an 5+ invun In addition to boosting cover to 2+ due to tau guy fielding skyfire misslesides, dang that's a lot of s7
In other news we recruited an ork player and an IG player into our new rule system.
Ork dude is loving the assault changes, seems a lot more happy now he doesn't get beaten up at the 40k table. He beat IG guy in a close run game through commando use and the fact that he can now hit Valkyries with cannons. IG guy beat my new space marines the armor saves for vehicles work brilliantly if you have forgotten
AV10 has 4+ armour
AV11 has 3+ armour (rhinos now have 3+ save like marines its so cute )
AV12 has 2+ armor (dreadnoughts are now awesome and chimeras need las cannons to be hurt)
AV 13 has 2 + armour and a 5+ invunrable
AV 14 has 2+armour and 4+ invunrable (land raiders absorb tons of fire and leman Russes are a bit too good but IG does suffer in the new rules)
Ork dude


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Vector strikes are now ap 2 under the vehicle armor changes valkaries got 2+ saves against hive crones and we agreed it wasnt fair we retooled it to allow cover saves flyers can opt to skyfire and so ignore the cover generated by other flyers for vector strikes. Quad guns now have a hard time getting through 2+ armour so people have started using the Icarus lascannon instead. Except against tyranid guy who is using mawlocs to kill gun crews to save his new crone who has currently haywired my stormtalon to death.

Keep em coming DRAL ,we like our new game but its still a bit rough. And the 40k team don't like it. Also can we get an update on what DRAL stands for?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should explain that the true 40k loyalists do not like us playing around with new rules, hence its hard to get them to play on our table, eldar guy was a bit harsh on our changes. IG seems to like the added durability of vehicles but is trying to adapt to flyer nerfs and cc buffs leading to interesting combos.

As for trying to nerf to markerlights dives for 5+ invun have kept railguns away and the armor rules mean that often armor saves are better than cover.

I am so pleased that you and your gaming group are trying out and enjoying (mostly) the DRAL Rules. I love that you are trying out your own as well. This is a community effort!

I have a question. What rules interaction made the Nid Hive Crone go down like a JV cheerleader?

Also, where di dyou get those rules for AV armor saves and how do they work? That was not something contemplated by our team of developers.

I am really excited that your Ork player had some new life breathed into his army!!!!

the vehicle is "wounded" the traditional way and then gets a save based on that table, we widely agree it works well and Is balanced as MC are well monstrous, and vehicles can be one shotted on results of 6.
in short vehicles ended up with better durability than monstrous creatures but often don't last as long, due to the one-shot thing and the fact that you can circumvent their armour by aiming for rear plates.
it hasn't been all that rosey though, issues have been cropping up.
Autocannons, rupture cannons, missilepods, and deffguns have a hard time breaching AV12 now due to AP4, ork dude is actually now using zapp guns for anti armour.
Krak Missiles, and equivilents have also suffered

as for crones they have T5 and a 4+ save, with skyfire denying the cover save, that's 2+ wounding with nothing to save, resulting in a very dead crone.

changes implemented
I pointed this out but the majority of players simply outlined that you need a 5+ to damage AV12 with autocannon equivalents so often its not worth it, however we did rewrite ordnanace so that ordanace weapons ignore vehicle armour saves , SAG is now awesome, and so did the rupture cannon when it became ordinance 2 it because it was an ill thought out weapon.

 Blackskull wrote:



the vehicle is "wounded" the traditional way and then gets a save based on that table, we widely agree it works well and Is balanced as MC are well monstrous, and vehicles can be one shotted on results of 6.
in short vehicles ended up with better durability than monstrous creatures but often don't last as long, due to the one-shot thing and the fact that you can circumvent their armour by aiming for rear plates.
it hasn't been all that rosey though, issues have been cropping up.
Autocannons, rupture cannons, missilepods, and deffguns have a hard time breaching AV12 now due to AP4, ork dude is actually now using zapp guns for anti armour.
Krak Missiles, and equivilents have also suffered

as for crones they have T5 and a 4+ save, with skyfire denying the cover save, that's 2+ wounding with nothing to save, resulting in a very dead crone.

changes implemented
I pointed this out but the majority of players simply outlined that you need a 5+ to damage AV12 with autocannon equivalents so often its not worth it, however we did rewrite ordnanace so that ordanace weapons ignore vehicle armour saves , SAG is now awesome, and so did the rupture cannon when it became ordinance 2 it because it was an ill thought out weapon.

Oh yes, I see. Many problems do arise. The DRAL Team noted the same about two months ago so we scrapped the idea. We didn't want to make the game MORE confusing by having to change all the rules that interact with armor (e.g. melta rule, chain fists, Ap1, AP2, just to name a few). We also feel that the durability and utility of vehicles has found a sweet spot with 6th Ed. (SEE WE AREN'T JUST HATERS!) So, although we recognize a single mechanic for hitting, and "wounding" all units is preferable; we also do not want to fix what isn't broken.

The rules were obtained by a dakka poster called rbacus but I can't find the post. I thought It was on this post but I appear to be mistaken.
The ordanace change provides a nice difference between railguns and demolisher shells.

Also by popular demand that culminated in a vote that I lost we now allow jump infantry to assault flyers afterwards they take a dangerous terrain check I hated the idea. Until my heldrake got involved in a awesome fight with a stormboy nob. Ork guy needed reliable anti air and he got it so we made him happy. Gargoyles with adrenal glands proved themselves attacking my drake from the rear. Suddenly Triple drake lists don't steamroll everything and frankly I enjoy the change, when you sit on something that kills everything the temptation to use it is often too great.

 Blackskull wrote:
The rules were obtained by a dakka poster called rbacus but I can't find the post. I thought It was on this post but I appear to be mistaken.
The ordanace change provides a nice difference between railguns and demolisher shells.

Also by popular demand that culminated in a vote that I lost we now allow jump infantry to assault flyers afterwards they take a dangerous terrain check I hated the idea. Until my heldrake got involved in a awesome fight with a stormboy nob. Ork guy needed reliable anti air and he got it so we made him happy. Gargoyles with adrenal glands proved themselves attacking my drake from the rear. Suddenly Triple drake lists don't steamroll everything and frankly I enjoy the change, when you sit on something that kills everything the temptation to use it is often too great.

Haha so cool. Will try it out.

Lol wow, stormboyz as ork anti-air. Yeah sign me up for that

That actually sounds really cool. Would make me want to take Assault Marines.

BIG UPDATES:
FLYERS
(since you now use regular shooting mechanics to hit flyers, there must be a balance to afford them necessary protections)
2) "Zoom" Saves: Zooming flyers benefit from an unmodified 3+ save from ground to air fire.

This save is not a cover save nor an armor save nor an invulnerable save. Flyers already have a 5+ cover save called Jink, that when exercised come with a penalty, making all shooting from the flyer snap-shots in the following player shooting phase.

Now with each save there is a work around. Cover saves can be modified handily by most armies these days. Further, the inclusion of Destroyer Weapons even ignores Invuls. So, in furtherance of the goal which is to streamline the game and not write exceptions to every rule, this "Zoom" save must be created.

As with all units with two "saves", the Flyer may only elect to take one of these saves ("Zoom", unmodifiable 3+ save from G2A Fire, or "Jink", 5+ cover save).

So with this big revision from the rules in 6th, what has actually changed? We went from:
(a) needing 6's to hit unless skyfire then hit as normal, then
penetrate, then
Jink if desired

To:
(b) hit as normal, then
penetrate, then
Zoom save on 3+ unless the firing unit has skyfire
Jink if desired

We have successfully preserved the To Hit -> To Wound -> Save thus streamlining the game cognitively.

We have also taken the ball out of GW's court a little by not *having* to wait for new units releases to patch old armies. This is a huge boon to the game overall.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
USRs
2) Fleet (et al.): Permits player to re-roll the Run move or re-roll the optional D6 when calculating charge distance (explained above) NB: 6th Ed. prohibits running ans assaulting in the same player turn by any given unit.

BIG news
We now have a necron girl on our table!

Typically with new blood comes new ideas and we have no exception here.
Vehicle armor table got scraped and vector strikes are back to normal. In short we undid everything except the flyer rules and stormboys newfound ability to leap into Valkyrie cockpit with a powerclaw.
Flyers keep the new aerial save (as it is now called) as my jump lord started slicing and buttering necron croissant's with a bit to much ease.
Plus ork guy made a strormboy nob called cuddles who sports 2 power klaws 5 attacks at s9 on defenseless flyers was a bit to much.

Walkers can only be hit on 6 with grenades unless immobilized If you read the description of krak nades you will find that they are fix on charges and that's somewhat hard to do on a machine with flailing legs and\or arms.

 Blackskull wrote:
BIG news
We now have a necron girl on our table!

Typically with new blood comes new ideas and we have no exception here.
Vehicle armor table got scraped and vector strikes are back to normal. In short we undid everything except the flyer rules and stormboys newfound ability to leap into Valkyrie cockpit with a powerclaw.
Flyers keep the new aerial save (as it is now called) as my jump lord started slicing and buttering necron croissant's with a bit to much ease.
Plus ork guy made a strormboy nob called cuddles who sports 2 power klaws 5 attacks at s9 on defenseless flyers was a bit to much.

Walkers can only be hit on 6 with grenades unless immobilized If you read the description of krak nades you will find that they are fix on charges and that's somewhat hard to do on a machine with flailing legs and\or arms.

Congrats on the necron player for multiple reasons lol

Do me and the rest of the readers a favor by differentiating the DRAL rules you are play-testing from the home brew rules of your group. Thanks. Keep up the good work.

The DRAL Team is not yet ready to fully endorse allowing jump infantry to assault zooming flyers. It is in consideration but is being met with a lot of push back as it may not be in line with our objective. The DRAL Team is seeking to streamline for speed and improve the competitive aspect of the game. Permitting Jump Infantry to assault a zooming flyer is a fun fluffy rule but is also a big step that requires careful thought and play testing.

I don´t like the "jump units assaulting flyers" rule.

I am sorry, because it sounds quite a fun rule. But it totally breaks my "suspension of disbelief" regarding 40k. Flyers, while zooming, are supposed to be quite far from the ground. The mechanics of the assault don´t make sense for multiple reasons.

However, the rule is 100% cool for Hovering Flyers, units that are still way over the ground, and should be impossible to assault with normal units, but are still close enough that a jump unit may reach them. That would be cool.

On topic: about the two changes on post #1.
-> The alternative outflank rule sounds good.
-> Still not sold on giving additional saves to flyers. I don´t think it is needed, even after your changes. Perhaps I am biased against zooming flyers....

Regarding flyers... Did you read the variant proposed by Peregrine I linked?

 Deuce11 wrote:
Permitting Jump Infantry to assault a zooming flyer is a fun fluffy rule but is also a big step that requires careful thought and play testing.

Actually, I'd say the opposite. Assaulting flyers is incredibly stupid from a fluff perspective. Flyers being a few inches off the table is just a limit of what you can do with a practical flying base, in "reality" you're talking about aircraft hundreds or thousands of feet off the ground moving at hundreds of miles per hour. Jump infantry simply do not have the speed or jump altitude to reach a "real" flyer. The only reason to allow any units to assault a flyer under any circumstances is if you want it as a balance factor to provide better AA capabilities to armies that don't really have any under GW's rules.

Snapshots seem just as immersion breaking to me, as well as aircraft being able to target units both at full BS and which are within a stones throw of their allies with no issue.

Not to mention being unable to sweep/consolidate into additional assaults, or charge from outflanking etc. I mean what on earth is happening there? Krump some gits and then sit down for fething tea?

Hell, the entire game is ridiculous if you think about it. I'm hard pressed to find anything that makes sense here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41QFL4QB3NE

one man and his jump pack

and one plane down

love planetside 2

what's more for flyers to work as ground attack craft they have to be at fairly low altitude

From what i see, you basically just add "closest die" and overwatch to 5-th ed.

 da001 wrote:
I don´t like the "jump units assaulting flyers" rule.

I am sorry, because it sounds quite a fun rule. But it totally breaks my "suspension of disbelief" regarding 40k. Flyers, while zooming, are supposed to be quite far from the ground. The mechanics of the assault don´t make sense for multiple reasons.

However, the rule is 100% cool for Hovering Flyers, units that are still way over the ground, and should be impossible to assault with normal units, but are still close enough that a jump unit may reach them. That would be cool.

On topic: about the two changes on post #1.
-> The alternative outflank rule sounds good.
-> Still not sold on giving additional saves to flyers. I don´t think it is needed, even after your changes. Perhaps I am biased against zooming flyers....

Regarding flyers... Did you read the variant proposed by Peregrine I linked?

Permitting Jump Troops to assault a zooming flyer is on the editing room floor at DRAL headquarters. To those that like it, enjoy it, but the DRAL Team has not adopted it.

I read Peregrine rules and although interesting, they would never be adopted by the DRAL Team. The DRAL rules are meant to be easily adoptable by the competitive/tournament oriented 40K player base. We are trying to preserve the game GW has created for us the best we can. The rules proposed by Peregrine are too drastic of a change. It may seem that the DRAL Team is being hypocritical with it's reasoning, especially if you like those flyer rules, but we strive to keep GW's efforts at the core of our DRAL Rules.

Thanks.

The more I read the recent rule edits (like snap firing at a unit coming from outflank) the more I am starting to like the rule set. Especially jump troops assaulting flyers, as I have always viewed 40k as a whacky game where the improbable or the impossible seems to happen often. I see this-

"AV10 has 4+ armour
AV11 has 3+ armour (rhinos now have 3+ save like marines its so cute )
AV12 has 2+ armor (dreadnoughts are now awesome and chimeras need las cannons to be hurt)
AV 13 has 2 + armour and a 5+ invunrable
AV 14 has 2+armour and 4+ invunrable"

Is not mentioned as an official DRAL rule anywhere, is this homebrew from the user or a DRAL rule that isn't on the first page?

I'm confused now - is assaulting fliers with jump troops *in* or *out*

If its out I might homerule it in, but I would like to know how the DRAL team mindset for it

Also if its anything that makes a ruleset legit its posts like this asking for a ruling

 Dakkamite wrote:
I'm confused now - is assaulting fliers with jump troops *in* or *out*

If its out I might homerule it in, but I would like to know how the DRAL team mindset for it

Also if its anything that makes a ruleset legit its posts like this asking for a ruling

I was like "what?" when I read it.

I mean: you like the rule? It is in. Don´t like it? It is out. This is Proposed Rules, not YMDC

When trying to get people to play DRAL, I'd rather say "lets try out DRAL rules" instead of "lets try out DRAL rules plus assaulting fliers" you know?

LOLOL My bad! I wrote "prohibited" but meant "permitted" and then used a negative. To clarify: We are not adding rules to allow jump troops to assault zooming flyers.

Sorry guys, that one is on me.

Ok our table has finalised our ruleset all in all its rather enjoyable.
Armor
AV10 has a 5+ save
AV11 has a 4+ save
AV12 has a 3+ save
AV13 has a 2+ save
AV14 has a 2+ and a 5+ invulnerable
This table still makes autocannons usable along with the rest of your ap4 stuff. Note lance strips invunrables off av14 by making it 12, zoanthroapes now upset me greatly.

Ordanance
Against anything with AV ordinance weapons Ignore armor saves. For blast weapons the hole has to be on the hull of the target.

Flyers (both monstrous and vehicle)
Can be shot at normally but have a 3+ aerial save in addition to armor (like fnp but can be rolled in addition to fnp) providing they are not in melee combat or being attacked by skyfire. Still immune to templates. Evade for flyers grants 5+ cover as normal. previously space marines would hit a flyer just as often as an ork despite being trained to the highest standards in use of ranged weaponry

Psykers
Can select 1 power and roll for the rest unless they are ML1 or come with pre selected powers. adding back the tactical element of psyker powers

Outflank
Firing units count as bs1 on turn of outflank, blast and large blast weapons scatter will be d6 extra due to rapid aiming of guns in addition to BS1.

Jump
Can assault but not lock in combat flying units providing they haven't used their jump pack. at initative step 10 roll a die for every model in the combat on a 1 they take a wound with no armor saves allowed. Your stormboy got sucked into an engine, splattered over the front of a stormraven, over shot the target or something similar. FMC can opt to perform a vector strike instead of firing overwatch at their initiative step.

Vector strikes
Are ap2 and ignore aerial saves. You can however take cover saves from them. Note flyers can jink to dodge your claws, and going to ground also works.

MC
Ignore the effects for moving in area terrain and cannot take saves from it. they also ignore any special (good or bad) effects of the terrain as well. carnifexes hiding with gaunts in a crater and getting identical saves for cover isn't right. ruins providing they block line of sight are fine.

I am obliged to add these are not DRAL rules and that they are only here for inspiration for the DRAL team. However if you like warhammer 40k blackskull edition feel free to have a go and tell me how it went. Even eldar guy is now playing on our table,and we now have enough people for a small tournament.

note I intend to repost this on a separate post as it isn't fair on the DRAL team to have my rules all over their post

I think vehicle armour saves should cap at 3+, Krak missiles were made for tank busting.

Area terrain needs height categories or something. A wheat field will not hide a Carnifex but a 2-story ruin will.

Awesome, Blackskull.

Taking a hard look at your armor save approach to AV. That is an additional save I assume. (Drawing a comparison between T and AV, and infantry armor to this new "save")


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I think vehicle armour saves should cap at 3+, Krak missiles were made for tank busting.

Area terrain needs height categories or something. A wheat field will not hide a Carnifex but a 2-story ruin will.

Agreed.

A landraider (AV 14) with a subsequent 2+5++ is absurd, at least at first glance.

Krak missiles are made for tank busting but a RPG shouldn't be able to level what is literally an armored bunker on wheels. AV14 encompasses both land raiders and bastions and similar fortress like objects.

The tank armor save is subject to ap and since most high powered anti tank weapons are ap2 or better the effect for them is minimal. melta still shames all armor.
Also I forgot to add the ordinance change have another look

As for the MC cover thing. Area terrain is basicly things like wheat feilds, craters, and forests. MC got a slight boon in ignoring all effects on terrain even bad ones. MC trample down carnivorous forest's and so don't get bitten to death.