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I was wondering if anyone can come up with an HQ that could best Be'lakor in a one on one challenge. Be'lakor is WS9, S 6, 4 wounds, 6 attacks on the charge, has EW, always wounds on 2+ (fleshbane), master-crafted, has a 4++ and is shrouded, His sword is S+1, AP2, and the opponent would have a -1 to his leadership when taking fear tests. Let's not forget that Be'lakor is a Mastery level 3 psyker of the Telethapy discipline. Cast Hallucination and psychic shriek and the fight is almost over before a single blow is struck!

Is Be'lakor king of the ring???

A necron overlord could do it, purely by virtue of MSS. Yet Be'Lakor still wins out more often than not.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:
A necron overlord could do it, purely by virtue of MSS. Yet Be'Lakor still wins out more often than not.

Couldn't Be'lakor cast invisibility on himself, therefore rendering the MSS almost useless?

If the Swarmlord rolled well for his Biomancy powers and got a boost to Initiative, he would dominate Belakor. Make it looks easy in fact.

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
If the Swarmlord rolled well for his Biomancy powers and got a boost to Initiative, he would dominate Belakor. Make it looks easy in fact.

I'm actually curious about this. I imagine Swarmy would win, but keep in mind Belly can invis himself and make the Swarmlord WS1. Hitting on 5s versus hitting on 3s (with one reroll) is a pretty big deal.

Is Mephiston still rock or is he old news nowadays?

 anonymou5 wrote:

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
If the Swarmlord rolled well for his Biomancy powers and got a boost to Initiative, he would dominate Belakor. Make it looks easy in fact.

I'm actually curious about this. I imagine Swarmy would win, but keep in mind Belly can invis himself and make the Swarmlord WS1. Hitting on 5s versus hitting on 3s (with one reroll) is a pretty big deal.

Yeah but if the Swarmlord got Toughness 8 or 9 from Biomancy, Belakor would only wound on a 6. So, the fight would take a long time but Swarmlord would win.

I can't think of a single scenario in which I'd want one of my characters in a challenge with him.

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:

 anonymou5 wrote:

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
If the Swarmlord rolled well for his Biomancy powers and got a boost to Initiative, he would dominate Belakor. Make it looks easy in fact.

I'm actually curious about this. I imagine Swarmy would win, but keep in mind Belly can invis himself and make the Swarmlord WS1. Hitting on 5s versus hitting on 3s (with one reroll) is a pretty big deal.

Yeah but if the Swarmlord got Toughness 8 or 9 from Biomancy, Belakor would only wound on a 6. So, the fight would take a long time but Swarmlord would win.

Belly has Fleshbane, he always wounds on 2s.

Well, it looks like the Necron Overlord and the Swarmlord are down for the count. Who else wants to step into the squared circle with the Chaos heavyweight champion?

 sub-zero wrote:
Well, it looks like the Necron Overlord and the Swarmlord are down for the count. Who else wants to step into the squared circle with the Chaos heavyweight champion?

Ha. Wouldn't go that far. Belly is still testing against Shadows to get that Invis off. Swarmy has still got to be the favorite, just curious about the math.

What is Belly's point costs?

But once again, I submit a ThunderWolf Lord. I don't know if Belly counts as an MC and can choose to smash, but the result is pretty much the same.

T-wolf Lords and Belly have the same number of attacks, T-wolf Lords hit on 3s while Belly hits on 4s, Both will wound on 2s, T-wolf Lord has a 3+ inv save, instead of Bellys 4+. If Belly can't smash, then there is no reason to give the T-wolf Lord Saga of the Bear, so instead we go with Saga of the Beast Slayer. Now he gets to reroll his to hit attacks, thus making the fight end even that much sooner.

According to *mathhammer* a tricked out iron father using clan rauukan supplement dominates Be'lakor.

Here is the thread with the math. Take from it what you want.

http://suptg.thisisnotatrueending.com/archive/28734574/

Abaddon, Lysander, Draigo or Ghazghkull could still take him, IMO.

 Jayden63 wrote:
What is Belly's point costs?

But once again, I submit a ThunderWolf Lord. I don't know if Belly counts as an MC and can choose to smash, but the result is pretty much the same.

T-wolf Lords and Belly have the same number of attacks, T-wolf Lords hit on 3s while Belly hits on 4s, Both will wound on 2s, T-wolf Lord has a 3+ inv save, instead of Bellys 4+. If Belly can't smash, then there is no reason to give the T-wolf Lord Saga of the Bear, so instead we go with Saga of the Beast Slayer. Now he gets to reroll his to hit attacks, thus making the fight end even that much sooner.

He's 3.5 thunderfires

He can smash. He's also hitting on 3s (WS9), with one reroll (Master Crafted). So the Lord has to have Saga of the Bear or it's not a fight.

Bear Lord is also getting Hallucinated each turn, so you may want to give him the Talisman as well.

Hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s versus Hitting on 3s (with one reroll due to mastercraft), wounding on 2s, same number of attacks. Lord has a 3++ to Belly's 4++ I think Belly's extra wound plus Hallucinate tip it in his favor.

 Jayden63 wrote:
What is Belly's point costs?

But once again, I submit a ThunderWolf Lord. I don't know if Belly counts as an MC and can choose to smash, but the result is pretty much the same.

T-wolf Lords and Belly have the same number of attacks, T-wolf Lords hit on 3s while Belly hits on 4s, Both will wound on 2s, T-wolf Lord has a 3+ inv save, instead of Bellys 4+. If Belly can't smash, then there is no reason to give the T-wolf Lord Saga of the Bear, so instead we go with Saga of the Beast Slayer. Now he gets to reroll his to hit attacks, thus making the fight end even that much sooner.

Bel'akor is a FMC so he does indeed have smash. So you would have to take Saga of the Bear to make sure no unlucky unsaved invuln. roll would result in the insta-splat of your beloved Wolf Lord even with his 3++ invuln. Thing is that Belakor still attacks first with 5 (or 6 on the charge) fleshbane attacks hitting on 3's with a re-roll from the sword being mastercrafted. This by itself is nasty but this comes along with knowing every power of Telepathy while being ML3 from the BRB meaning he can cast Psychic scream, then things like Hallucination which can make your Wolf Lord not only get pinned (meaning he can't get the charge if he just landed) but potentially not fight at all or worse hit himself with his hammer. As much as a thunderwolf lord is deadly I think Bel'akor would win the majority of his engagements given his versatility in high I8 attacks AND his psychic prowess.

Points is a bit different here. I can only think of Necron HQs that even have close to that number. So he should beat out most everyone else of a lower point cost.

However, having said that, Hallucinate only stops the T-lord (or any character) from attacking 1/3 of the time. The other two times he still gets to swing. Its also negated flat out 1/3 of the time by the WTT or any other denigh the witch bonuses that might be floating around. So I wouldn't say its a sure thing either. But yeah, even if the T-wolf lord goes down, I've got about 75 - 100 points of other stuff to remove that last wound to even call it a wash.

But math has them both dropping in the third round. Edge goes to who ever got the charge off. Also neither will be in much of a position to live long after the fight, each down to their last wound if they happen to survive somehow.

The points difference is a huge handicap. Its like saying which would ram better, a Land Raider or a Rhino? The LR is going to win because it has the stats to win and its points reflect that.

Actually, I went ahead and rolled some mock battles to see how Be'Lakor fairs against other heavyweight special characters. In all of these scenarios, Be'Lakor has the charge.


BE'LAKOR VS LYSANDER
-Be'Lakor casts Hallucination on Lysander, DTW failed-- rolls "You! You are a traitor!" and conks a few members of whatever squad he's with (we'll say they're all dead by the time Be'Lakor charges in). He then casts Dominate on him for good measure.
-Be'Lakor charges in and does 2 unsaved wounds to Lysander! Lysander is not amused, though, and does 2 unsaved wounds back
-Be'Lakor then swings first again, and does another unsaved wound to Lysander, leaving him on one. Lysander swings back, but Be'Lakor's saves are hot, and he only takes one wound back
-Sensing victory, Be'Lakor casts Invisibility on himself and does 3 wounds to Lysander...and he saves all of them like a boss! Swinging back, Lysander does 2 unsaved wounds back to Be'Lakor and banishes him screaming into the warp.

WINNER: LYSANDER (though I wonder how differently it would have gone if Be'Lakor just kept constantly using Invisibility)



BE'LAKOR VS ABADDON
-Be'Lakor flies up, casts Invisibility on self, then casts Dominate on Abaddon-- but it is denied! He then charges in and does 2 wounds to Abaddon, who swings back with the Talon of Horus and does 1 wound back
-Be'Lakor then swings first again and dings another wound off of Abaddon, who gets pretty miffed and does nothing back
-Finally, Be'Lakor re-casts Invisibility, takes Abbadons last 2 wounds and does a victory dance over his corpse

WINNER: BE'LAKOR




BE'LAKOR VS GHAZGHKULL
-Be'Lakor does the usual routine & casts Invisibility on self & Dominate on Ghaz, before charging in. Swinging first, he does 5 wounds to the big Ork, but Ghaz saves 3, before swinging back and missing all of his attacks spectacularly! He passes LD, though, and fights on
-At this point, Ghazghkull calls the Waaagh; despite doing 5 wounds, Be'Lakor can't get past Ghaz's invul save...and Ghaz continues to miss!
-Re-casting invisibility, Be'Lakor does 5 wounds...and again, all are saved! This time, Ghaz manages ONE hit. Which is saved. Boo-urns.
-Now free of the 2+ invul, Be'Lakor swings...and does only 1 unsaved wound to the tough Ork. And in return, Ghaz misses. Again. Invisibility is EEEEVIL.
-Be'Lakor re-casts Invisibility and proceeds to roll a lot of 1's to wound. The one wound he manages bounces off Ghaz's cybork body. Ghaz, though, manages 1 wound back...which is saved.
-Be'Lakor finally manages another unsaved wound, leaving Ghaz on one. Ghaz, in return, FINALLY lands an unsaved wound back on Be'Lakor, but at this point it's far too late.
-Be'Lakor casts Invisibility, but perils in the process and wounds himself! He then does 3 wounds-- Ghaz saves 2, but nonetheless finally goes down!

WINNER: BE'LAKOR





BE'LAKOR VS KALDOR DRAIGO
-Be'Lakor flies up and casts Invisibility on himself, and then casts Dominate on Draigo...but Draigo isn't having any of that nonsense and denies it. Be'Lakor then charges in, swings first, and does 1 unsaved wound on Draigo...who then swings back and does 3 unsaved wounds in return! Be'Lakor panics momentarily, but passes his instability test
-Swinging again, Be'Lakor hits with everything, but chooses this moment to roll a lot of 1's to wound. He still takes another wound off of Draigo, who this time does no damage back
-Be'Lakor re-casts Invisibility and swings, dealing an amazing 5 wounds to Draigo...who saves all but one of them, leaving him on 1 wound left. Draigo has had enough of this nonsense, though, and does 1 wound back. And naturally, Be'Lakor fails his save, because he's an obliging sort of guy.

WINNER: KALDOR DRAIGO (Preferred Enemy: Daemons was a real boon in this fight)



So far, it looks like Be'Lakor deserves to be in the ranks of the 40k heavyweights, as he can hold his own against the likes of Ghaz and Abaddon and either come out on top, or at the very least get them down to 1 wound. I'll try rolling him against the Swarmlord, Skarbrand, a Thunderwolf Lord and a Necron Overlord next, to see how he does.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Points is a bit different here. I can only think of Necron HQs that even have close to that number. So he should beat out most everyone else of a lower point cost.

However, having said that, Hallucinate only stops the T-lord (or any character) from attacking 1/3 of the time. The other two times he still gets to swing. Its also negated flat out 1/3 of the time by the WTT or any other denigh the witch bonuses that might be floating around. So I wouldn't say its a sure thing either. But yeah, even if the T-wolf lord goes down, I've got about 75 - 100 points of other stuff to remove that last wound to even call it a wash.

But math has them both dropping in the third round. Edge goes to who ever got the charge off. Also neither will be in much of a position to live long after the fight, each down to their last wound if they happen to survive somehow.

The points difference is a huge handicap. Its like saying which would ram better, a Land Raider or a Rhino? The LR is going to win because it has the stats to win and its points reflect that.

Sure. But Be'Lakor isn't 3.5 Thunderfires because he's a beat stick. He's one of the best force multipliers in the game who can also fight when needed. These threads aren't really about efficiency, just for fun. Lysander beats Calgar, but Calgar provides more for the Army. Doesn't matter when we're just spit balling on "who is the top dog of 1v1"

Grey Knight Librarian Mastery LV3
Nemesis Warding Stave
given that he can roll Precogntion or Misfortune, and then back that up with hammerhand and might of titan so he's wounding on 4s
or

Lord Kaldor Draigo

Either of them... I would imagine having a chance

But can Be'lakor tell why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch?

 Badablack wrote:
But can Be'lakor tell why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch?

Of course! Everyone knows that kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch because of its chock-full of sugary goodness in every bite! ...and also the copious amounts of LSD and cocaine-lacing in said sugar swirls by none other than Doomrider! No one is safe from the man with head-fiar!

DKOK CCS with banner of martyrdom

I'm gonna get wiped but i gain the VP's for it

What about a prescienced brotherhood champion who would get punked by Be'lakor but would then remove him from play on a 3+ with a re-roll?

- I know its not technically besting him in a challenge but the result is still Be'lakor ending up dead.

I'm surprised I haven't read anything about any of the nasty DE melee powerhouses I normally see dominating these threads.

I'm throwing my lot in with Kaldor, the guy is still one of the baddest in town.

How about Asurman He is ew so he won't be insta-gibbed, and at strength 5 he's still wounding pretty well. All it takes is one wound and a failed leadership. Removed from play ignores Be'lakors eternal warrior.

AHA my CHAPLAIN chall fall the beat sorely because he wants to!!!

How would vect stand againts belly? He has the 2++ and the pimp cane of doom to really smack belly down and it being ap3 doesnt really matter in this case since belly lacks armour and only has his 4++

Be'lakor vs. Swarmlord (5th ed book) mock combat:

~Round 1~
The Swarmlord rolls very well for psychic powers and gets Iron Arm, Enfeeble, Endurance and Warp Speed, it has successfully used Endurance and Iron Arm in the previous turn, gaining +1 Strength & Toughness, Feel No Pain and It Will Not Die
Be'lakor knows the entire Telepathy discipline, he successfully casts Invisibility on himself and glides forward into charge range, in the shooting phase he attempts to use Psychic Shriek but fails due to Shadow in the Warp, rolling an 11 on 3d6.
Be'lakor charges into combat and declares a challenge to avoid the Lash Whips in the unit, the Swarmlord accepts.
Hammer of Wrath fails to wound
With 6 attacks hitting on 3s and wounding on 2s, Be'lakor ends up causing 1 unsaved wounds after FNP.
The Swarmlord strikes back with 4 attacks, hitting on 5s and wounding on 2s, causing 1 unsaved wound.
Wounds left: Be'lakor - 3 | Swarmlord - 4

~Round 2~
It is the Swarmlord's turn and it casts Endurance and Warp Speed (+2), he gives himself Preferred Enemy, Invisibility is still active on Be'lakor.
Be'lakor gets 5 attacks that result in 1 more wound.
The Swarmlord's 6 attacks also cause 1 wound.
Swarmy heals 1 wound thanks to IWND
Wounds left: Be'lakor - 2 | Swarmlord - 4

~Round 3~
Be'lakor manifests Invisibility successfully but loses a wound to Perils and opts to not attempt any further powers
Attacking, he deals 2 unsaved wounds after Feel No Pain
At the same initiative the Swarmlord's 6 attacks result in one more unsaved wound and Be'lakor is slain!
Wounds left: Be'alkor - | Swarmlord - 2

Despite some poor rolls, victory ends up going to the Swarmlord!

I'd throw in Arjac Rockfist for consideration - 2+/3+ Always hits on a 3+ S5 with Thunderhammer(S10), EW, Re-rolls failed hits vs IC's (& MC's?) and gets +1 A for his special storm shield, Stubbon, pretty sure he has a wolf tail talisman too so nullify psychic attacks against him on a 5+...

- only snag is 2 Wounds but provided he suvives the offensive, i think he has a pretty solid chance... took out An'ggrath the unbound in a recent game of apocalypse one on one although admittedly the demon player did roll poorly!