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 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Eh, my last post was a bit harsh. After reflection, I suppose I should reconsider my position, so I will...

...those damn dirty Eldar and their handwavium. *grumps*

Not really. Remember, Tau battlesuits aren't walkers, they're (book) Starship Troopers-style heavy power armor with jet packs. It makes sense to have them fight like infantry in the kind of difficult terrain/buildings/etc where vehicles aren't a very good idea.

Exactly as described. The Tau battlesuits are pretty decent direct translations of the military tech in one of the oldest and most respected sci-fi books.

Hovertanks are silly - using up engine power just to stay in the air doesn't make sense.
--------


Actually it makes a lot of sense. That's a huge difference in mobility compared to a ground vehicle, even ignoring the fluff of Tau tanks being a lot faster than Imperial equivalents. A tracked vehicle is going to be slowed or stopped by things like tank traps, deep mud/water, rubble, etc, that a hover tank can just ignore. And then you have fun abilities like using the lift engines to "jump" above cover, take a shot, and drop back before any return fire can even aim properly. Essentially Tau have managed a ridiculous feat of engineering and made a vehicle that has all of the best parts of a helicopter and a tank, without the drawbacks of either.

Exactly. The Military would be absolutely orgasmic over the technology for the ability to make a helicopter as survivable and well-armed as a main battle tank (or even a light tank!). Also, if you hate the Tau grav-tanks, you should hate the Eldar and Dark Eldar grav vehicles and all variants of Space Marine landspeeder. And most types of flyer as they are effectively helicopters using thrust engines instead of props, which for most purposes would be much less effective without lots of handwavium-tech. A

And hand-wavium tech pretty much defines 40K.

Peregrine, you make a lot of sense.

 dementedwombat wrote:
80 point devilfish just makes me cry inside. How much does a chimera cost for guard? How about a wave serpent for Eldar? Could I maybe get something about halfway between those two points costs for our transport?

It's just so ridiculous because everything got points reductions in the new codex...except the transport! Of course, I still remember the days when the transport could move in the assault phase like a crisis suit... so I guess I'm just spoiled.

Are you kidding with this .....I'm not saying Devilfish are costed well but they are 25 points more than an IG Chimera and 35 points less than a serpent....pretty close to half way if you ask me....and they would be more expensive if you wanted to be exactly half way....

Except it is almost outgunned by the chimera itself, packs nothing of note (or can it make any greatly noticable upgrades), forbids whoever is inside from doing anything, and comes as on option for 2 units. one of them don't even want to move from the firstplace, and the other just has no incentive to do so.

The serpent at least moves around units that actually need that added gap-closing.
Fire warriors are either in a fort formation, or fighting retreat as it is. the only variation that gains anything from advancing is EMP commandos, and as you can't assault from it, it does not even help them.

If it was an assault transport at least it could carve a niche of EMP commando platform, but even that is forbbiden to it.
If it had real firepower, it could be a support gunship.
(and lets admit guys, EMP commando fire warriors charging in with a devilfish is as awesome as it could get considering just how much tau need to avoid getting too close in general. its like saying "I know I'm going down, but god damn it I'm taking something with me!")

But 80 points for a simple shield that prevents you from shooting unless you drop it? a big squad is just wasting it's shots, a small squad-you might as well get another!


Now, if you want to talk balance and mobility issues, that's what tau are currently facing:
1-Devilfish needs either a great boost, or a great point cut. at the moment its just a bad choice 99% of the time. even if the boost is a niche, at least it will have something going for it.
2-Vespids could use a bit lower cost, so could stealth teams.
3-Railsides got TOO nerfed. at least give the rail Tank Hunters or something, to make its role as an AT gun more reliable.
4-HYMP on the other hand is too efficient.
5-And the riptide should not combine great range, good mobility and massive firepower. at least force him to choose.
6-ASS is missed. so is tank-MT. they were crucial for mobile tau lists.
7-Tau airforce is confused, give it a role and stick with it, right now they don't know their jobs.

Other then these factors who kill list flexibility a bit and cause a bit of gun-lining, the book is great.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Except it is almost outgunned by the chimera itself, packs nothing of note (or can it make any greatly noticable upgrades), forbids whoever is inside from doing anything, and comes as on option for 2 units. one of them don't even want to move from the firstplace, and the other just has no incentive to do so.

The serpent at least moves around units that actually need that added gap-closing.
Fire warriors are either in a fort formation, or fighting retreat as it is. the only variation that gains anything from advancing is EMP commandos, and as you can't assault from it, it does not even help them.

If it was an assault transport at least it could carve a niche of EMP commando platform, but even that is forbbiden to it.
If it had real firepower, it could be a support gunship.
(and lets admit guys, EMP commando fire warriors charging in with a devilfish is as awesome as it could get considering just how much tau need to avoid getting too close in general. its like saying "I know I'm going down, but god damn it I'm taking something with me!")

But 80 points for a simple shield that prevents you from shooting unless you drop it? a big squad is just wasting it's shots, a small squad-you might as well get another!


Now, if you want to talk balance and mobility issues, that's what tau are currently facing:
1-Devilfish needs either a great boost, or a great point cut. at the moment its just a bad choice 99% of the time. even if the boost is a niche, at least it will have something going for it.
2-Vespids could use a bit lower cost, so could stealth teams.
3-Railsides got TOO nerfed. at least give the rail Tank Hunters or something, to make its role as an AT gun more reliable.
4-HYMP on the other hand is too efficient.
5-And the riptide should not combine great range, good mobility and massive firepower. at least force him to choose.
6-ASS is missed. so is tank-MT. they were crucial for mobile tau lists.
7-Tau airforce is confused, give it a role and stick with it, right now they don't know their jobs.

Other then these factors who kill list flexibility a bit and cause a bit of gun-lining, the book is great.

1. The devilish would greatly benefit from a 20-30 point price drop, and make it actually worth it.
2. If they made the vesipd's gun assault 2 they might be worth it. A quick fix for stealth suits would be to make them troops (that would mean there would be no price change needed).
3. Tank hunters would be good if they only got it from the heavy rail rifle.
4. Meh, I don't really have an opinon on this one
5. I say make the ion accelerators over charge ordnance as well, or something along those lines.
6. Don't forget the target lock.
7. Currently the FW flyers are much better. Either a flyer with an ion cannon, or a squadron of cheap flyers with shrouded.

Its because the Tau do not follow the rules. Has anyone ever played against the Eldar in Battle Fleet Gothic? Its kind of like that.

You are playing 40k with your more conventional army, that has to deal with cover saves, LoS, single moves, et cetera, and then you have the Tau playing some different game against you.

Nothing is wrong with tau - people just got used to them being terrible for so long, them being good again was a shock....then came the cheese.....

its just the same jerks that were making old cheese lists have found a new formula for new cheese.

Leafblower
Razorspam
FNP spam
GK purifier spam
GK dragio wing
Necron flyer spam
Necron scarab spam
Flying circus
Screamer star
Riptide spam
Wave serpent spam
Seer council 2++
Grav gun spam
white scars scout spam

WAAC jerks will be jerks regardless - they stay the same, just the army changes.

up next...
Inquisition OP combos
Tyranid Build X spam....

Ad infinitum...

Marines have ATSKNF which completely nullifies Fear and a lot of the other LD based penalties.
Marines have a banner which turns the bolter from a rapid fire weapon into a salvo weapon.
Marines have drop pods which prevent mishaps on deepstriking.
Marines can take a 10 man squad then decide to make it 2 5 man squads whenever they want, while other armies have to decide this when making their list.
Marines have vehicles which ignore armorbane.
IG have tons of artillery that can be hidden outside LOS.

I don't understand why people say Tau don't follow the rules. The entire game is based around the BRB, and then each army will have huge deviations from that. It's how each army manages to stand out with out being bland.

Also, not all Tau weapons ignore LOS and cover. The ones that ignore LOS and cover are easily survivable. The ones that ignore cover need marker support and can be beaten with simple placing units at max coherency, even breaking up squads, and staying out of LOS.

davethepak wrote:
Nothing is wrong with tau - people just got used to them being terrible for so long, them being good again was a shock....then came the cheese.....

its just the same jerks that were making old cheese lists have found a new formula for new cheese.

Leafblower
Razorspam
FNP spam
GK purifier spam
GK dragio wing
Necron flyer spam
Necron scarab spam
Flying circus
Screamer star
Riptide spam
Wave serpent spam
Seer council 2++
Grav gun spam
white scars scout spam

WAAC jerks will be jerks regardless - they stay the same, just the army changes.

up next...
Inquisition OP combos
Tyranid Build X spam....

Ad infinitum...

Exactly. This "Tau destroy 40K" discussion has had a variation for each of those lists/Codexes, and will for new lists for years to come.

The only codex that doesn't get hate every time it is made more powerful with a new iteration is Space Marines, for obvious reasons.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

Marines have drop pods which prevent mishaps on deepstriking.

Drop Pods can still mishap you just don't mishap for scattering onto Impassable/other models. You can still scatter off the board and within 1" of another unit.

I don't agree with the OP that Tau are the most hated. If my flgs is any indicator, then Tau are one of the most popular armies out there.

I don't have any huge problems with their rules (inasmuch as I know them). I really like some of the models too, its just they seem so out of place in the 40k world. In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war, and that war is waged by optimistic space hippos in Robotech suits.

jasper76 wrote:
I don't have any huge problems with their rules (inasmuch as I know them). I really like some of the models too, its just they seem so out of place in the 40k world. In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war, and that war is waged by optimistic space hippos in Robotech suits.

You should read their fluff more carefully and look beyond the superficial propaganda the Tau use. They're only "good" in 40k because they're the only army that says "submit or die" in a universe where everyone else just kills you. In pretty much any other setting they'd be the generic expansionist evil empire. So it only highlights the grimdark when the Tau are the closest thing to "good guys" the setting has to offer.

 Peregrine wrote:

jasper76 wrote:
I don't have any huge problems with their rules (inasmuch as I know them). I really like some of the models too, its just they seem so out of place in the 40k world. In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war, and that war is waged by optimistic space hippos in Robotech suits.

You should read their fluff more carefully and look beyond the superficial propaganda the Tau use. They're only "good" in 40k because they're the only army that says "submit or die" in a universe where everyone else just kills you. In pretty much any other setting they'd be the generic expansionist evil empire. So it only highlights the grimdark when the Tau are the closest thing to "good guys" the setting has to offer.

And that, in turn, makes the whole setting much more grimdark in the eyes of someone that delves into it.

"A strict caste society that subjugate other races, ruthlessly expands their borders at other's expense, hinted at atrocities such as mind control, mass castigation, etc, and these are the local HIPPIES?!"

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

jasper76 wrote:
I don't have any huge problems with their rules (inasmuch as I know them). I really like some of the models too, its just they seem so out of place in the 40k world. In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war, and that war is waged by optimistic space hippos in Robotech suits.

You should read their fluff more carefully and look beyond the superficial propaganda the Tau use. They're only "good" in 40k because they're the only army that says "submit or die" in a universe where everyone else just kills you. In pretty much any other setting they'd be the generic expansionist evil empire. So it only highlights the grimdark when the Tau are the closest thing to "good guys" the setting has to offer.

And that, in turn, makes the whole setting much more grimdark in the eyes of someone that delves into it.

"A strict caste society that subjugate other races, ruthlessly expands their borders at other's expense, hinted at atrocities such as mind control, mass castigation, etc, and these are the local HIPPIES?!"

I was thinking about addressing this, but you two did it pretty brilliantly.

Well, see it's not like the paint their armor in the blood of innocents from their own race to go fight daemons, or feed the life force of a thousand people a day into their "god", or anything as "appropriately" grimdark as that. Wussy space-hippies.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Seriously, the whole mecha aspect is not something that's only found in anime. If anything the Tau are very far from an anime and more in line with a Mechwarrior style since they favor function over flair. If you honestly think that Tau are too anime-ish, then you probably aren't too familiar with sci-fi, anime, and/or Tau.

Tau draw heavily on 1980s boxy scifi design and fluff wise it's mostly Heinlein meets Orwell. I don't see the anime connection either. I sort of wish the GW designers had actually bothered to look at some Gunpla. Riptides and battlesuits offer such poor value in terms of model complexity and detail compared to what companies like Bandai, Wave or Kotobukiya put out these days.

Yeah, I never did understand that. The Gunpla models have a wide range of varying detail and sized kits in multiple colors and types of plastic and are made in a way so that they are able to take a large number of poses.

I mean I have both the FAZZ and the Riptide, but the one that is larger and much more complex is actually cheaper.

Breng77 wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:
80 point devilfish just makes me cry inside. How much does a chimera cost for guard? How about a wave serpent for Eldar? Could I maybe get something about halfway between those two points costs for our transport?

It's just so ridiculous because everything got points reductions in the new codex...except the transport! Of course, I still remember the days when the transport could move in the assault phase like a crisis suit... so I guess I'm just spoiled.

Are you kidding with this .....I'm not saying Devilfish are costed well but they are 25 points more than an IG Chimera and 35 points less than a serpent....pretty close to half way if you ask me....and they would be more expensive if you wanted to be exactly half way....

The devilfish is totally not between the two. Devilfish basically sacrificed the option to have some dudes shoot out and any real gun to get an AV12 front, which admittedly is pretty damn good for a transport. Problem is in todays meta, vehicles arent that great unless massed, flying, or AV13+. Our tanks are very tough for a vehicle becuase theyre av13 and almost always have 4+ cover (15pt upgrade). Even if they cut the armor down to 11/11/10, removed the SMS upgrade option, but cut the cost by 25-30pts it would be a vastly better transport. Its not a gun ship, its a more-armored-than-usual delivery system in an army that usually DOESNT want to get THAT close lol. It isnt fast either, which btw the wave serpent IS fast and one of the few (if not the only) vehicles that actually have Fast and multiple weapons (Piranha dont count, gun drones are treated as passengers that shoot at the same target of the vehicle, so they always fire snaps more than 6" which i dumb) or for that matter a deadly weapon. Every other fast vehicle i know of sports a Str5 weapon, usually twinlinked, and thats it.

Anyway, back on topic, as several others mentioned before Tau really didnt change "that" much. Riptide is basically the biggest change, the rest we already had it was just unpractical (marker lights) or hard to utilize properly (seeker missiles, certain crisis load outs). That or just outright horrible (kroot, ethereal) lol. The new code just made things cheaper and more available. I miss the networked markerlight drones but for an 18pt cut i'll live with it (and DC options hehehe).

i find Eldar to be worse than Tau. They make no sense with what they have available vs what they look like, unlike every other army. Wraithknight actually looks tough, Wraithguard do not lol yet they are. And theyre a BS4 army now, which even with the old guns thats a major buff but now they have even nastier guns? They make 0 sense to me, i swear they just threw cool things at them for an army list.

Actually I quite like the Tau themselves. However I absolutely detest playing against them. Mainly because my CSM just have no hope of reaching them with more than 1-3 models left. It's just no fun to play against them.

Admittedly I may not be the best tactician. But playing for a year being tabled by the same gunline, just takes it out of you. My mate who has them is a very good player, but also not one to throw me a bone from time to time. W0hich at this stage, I'd take that charity to just try and have an enjoyable game against them. (though have already told him I'm not playing his tau again, till the PTSD has worn off).

I actually think that their old codex was pretty powerful too, but only with selected builds. But really I think that they would have a lot less hate if they just changed a few things.

Allow cover saves vs markerlights..... I can always duck when a laser pointers being shone on me....? Who cares if it doesn't wound. It's all about LOS with them.

Reduced the range on their Fire Warrior rapid fire guns to 24" max. After all, Eldar and guard have a shorter range before they can blow things away (with their crap guns). It's just really hard for any assault army to get that close these days, without having roads or clear openings to get to them.

It would make them rely a lot more on the multiple overwatch that they have, which I think is a great little rule and gives them something unique for the army. Like the Eldar's run/shoot gimmik.

I actually quite like the riptide as well. But obviously if you overspam a unit, it's going to suck (Can't see the facination with more than 2 heldrakes myself - Can't stand cultist builds).

I am also conserned as to how the new building rules are going to make things even more difficult to go up against Tau. Can you imagine them holed up in an AV15 building with firewarriors everywhere?

Just would be nice to actually have a Tau army come to me for a change, or at least be able to get halfway over the board before they opened up and destroyed me. They're meant to be a fluid mobile army. But I can't remember ever playing one.

 Grumzimus wrote:
Allow cover saves vs markerlights..... I can always duck when a laser pointers being shone on me....? Who cares if it doesn't wound. It's all about LOS with them.

Just would be nice to actually have a Tau army come to me for a change, or at least be able to get halfway over the board before they opened up and destroyed me. They're meant to be a fluid mobile army. But I can't remember ever playing one.

Before I post, wanted to agree with the cover save vs Markerlight thing(I do kinda need to see you BEFORE I point the wee itty-bitty lazor at your head afterall), and assure you that I tried to run a mobile stealth supported, infantry force. Its really fun for me to play even though against anything that remotely resembles a competitive list will kill it...easily...

When I first decided I wanted to play the game it was when the Tau were first added to 40k. By the time I had assembled and painted an army, and had a way of getting to a game it was the beginning of sixth ed and the new tau codex was a month away. That was my sad story. The only way GW got me into the game was by saying "Yes! You absolutely CAN be a good guy in this rotten world fighting the good fight!" A few weeks in the forums inform me "No! The Tau ARE evil! The whole universe is evil! Yay Grimdark Nerdom!" To which I go "What the legitimate F!?" I'm consoled that 40k is a sandbox however and I can quietly harbor my own fugitive beliefs of what they really are. I can even believe that they have three toes and not some disgusting hooves and who's to actually stop me? (Not just try to stop me by ranting in my general direction while citing the crap out of the canon.)

Mostly the only reason I even keep an eye on the game is because it has the most interesting evolution of a game I've ever seen.

Points:
-Yeah rip tides don't make much sense fluff-wise and they are stupid powerful, But I <3 my conversion.
-No, dont make Stealth suits troops or cheaper. I tried both, you don't want to know what happened
-Every Codex breaks the rules a metric t-shirt ton each.

How can you justify a cover save against marker lights? Its a laser pointer, unless you are out of sight to begin with (so i cant even attempt to light you up) try and dodge a laserpointer around a barricade. You cant, because its Light not a weapon.

Also i feel it would force us to either go no markerlights or only use Mark'O drone squads because pathfinders or BS2/3 drones dont apply that many marks without a lot of luck. Usually i get 2-3 marks from a 8man pathfinder team. If you could take a 4+ cover against those, i'd be lucky to have 1.

I was fine with old tau, but two things about new tau annoy the hell out of me:

1: Crisis suit Commander: 4 wounds on a base commander, WTF. Come on here, 3 is fine. Also, drone controller should have been +1 BS, not BS5 marker drones.

2: Riptide: I think enough has been said about this. 2+ save shooting MC is a problem.

Everything else i am fine with. Crisis suit spam, marker lights, ect. Its just when you put riptides or 4 wound 2+ save drone controller commanders (for cheap) in, i have problems with them.

Boniface wrote:


I'd like to go on record and say i think assault is still mostly fine the way it is and i dont agree with all the gripes but... you know.

Of course you find it mostly fine.You play one of the shootiest armies in the shootiest edition.Grab a few orks and fight a tau gunline.Tell me how mostly fine it is then.GrumblegrumbleTaudargrumble....

 Grumzimus wrote:


Just would be nice to actually have a Tau army come to me for a change, or at least be able to get halfway over the board before they opened up and destroyed me. They're meant to be a fluid mobile army. But I can't remember ever playing one.

Tau used to be an underpowered army, and the way to (hopefully) secure victory, or at least survive, was to stay as far away from the enemy as possible, and shoot as many of them as possible before they got to grips with you, and tore your army to shreds. This doctrine has transfered over to the new codex, with players adopting the same tactics, but with better chances of success.
The biggest changes are Firewarriors getting buffed by Fireblades and ethereals, broadsides being able to throw out a horrific number of shots, and of course Riptides, being surviveable, but with fairly underwhelming firepower.
The change that is usually missed, and will often make people cry, is that crisis teams got cheaper, and much, much better. They arent taken that often by a lot of players because a gunline army is the new thing, but if you think riptides can dish out the pain.....

A 200 or so point crisis team, with dual burst cannons, and a full complement of gun drones can lay down a hefty 36 S5 AP5 shots a turn. throw in marker lights and you are looking at BS5 shots, 12 of them twin linked. it will totally decimate hordes, drown MEQ's and TEQ's in shots till they go down, and unlike fire warriors they can then get out of the way of return fire. 250 or so points will net you 2 teams of 2 suits, with plasma rifles and some drones to support them, thats up to 16 plasma rifle shots (S6 AP2), again with marker light support, you will be hitting at BS 5 and ignore that pesky cover (and no 'gets hot'!!!)

Since i've loved crisis suits since Tau were released, i was delighted that Farsight armies can take them as troops (OMG!!!) and since the guys at my FLGS hate Tau, and hate riptides, i just took as may crisis suits as i could (no riptides) backed up by commando teams of pathfinders, and i'm working towards a Suits + Drones only army.
Drop pod assaults are painful, mitigated somewhat by interceptor in some units, but i usually end up getting first blood, slay the warlord AND linebreaker against anyone else.

Given my own experiences, you should be glad that you are not facing a mobile tau army, Despite the fact i don't take riptides, i generally dont go 'too' overboard with Tau allies (except to bring even more crisis suits) but crisis teams absolutely eclipse the damage output of riptides, by a significant margin. my regular opponents moan that i DON'T take riptides, and that i DON'T sit in my deployment zone shooting stuff

Just to add on the cover vs. marker thing, a laser targeter doesn't even need to be a visible light. for it to function. So really unless your target just happens to wander into something blocking LOS they wouldn't necessarily know they're being targetted to attempt to take cover. Mechanically the way it works now is fine as far as fluff is concerned.

Da krimson barun wrote:

Boniface wrote:


I'd like to go on record and say i think assault is still mostly fine the way it is and i dont agree with all the gripes but... you know.

Of course you find it mostly fine.You play one of the shootiest armies in the shootiest edition.Grab a few orks and fight a tau gunline.Tell me how mostly fine it is then.GrumblegrumbleTaudargrumble....

Pretty sure orks are one of the shootiest armies out there...

I remember one time Boniface said that it wasn't the Tau codex that was good.Just all the other players are bad and Tau players are good at the game.Ductvader:Only if you go panzee as I call it.(I picked orks to play orks.Not eldar but green.)At least our gunline has to get close.Not THAT close but don't tau have longer range?

 zephoid wrote:
2: Riptide: I think enough has been said about this. 2+ save shooting MC is a problem.

It's really the mid-long range that puts it over the top, if the riptide only had a 24" range he'd be fairly balanced in my opinion.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Da krimson barun wrote:
At least our gunline has to get close.Not THAT close but don't tau have longer range?

No argument there. You want to smash Tau face with orks? Shootboyz in deffrolla wagons. Your AV 14 wall will be nearly indestructable.

Of course!Pity that's for panzees...Remember barun ORKS not green tau...Dakka is for eldarz choppas is for ork...Besides!Who would sit back with shootas when you could be deffrollin!Its not proppa all dis shootin and mukkin about...Dem snakebites have da right idea..Except I'd have to leave behind me trukks...