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 zephoid wrote:
I was fine with old tau, but two things about new tau annoy the hell out of me:

1: Crisis suit Commander: 4 wounds on a base commander, WTF. Come on here, 3 is fine. Also, drone controller should have been +1 BS, not BS5 marker drones.

In the old codex we had 2 levels of commander Shas'el and Shas'o. The Shas'o commander istats exactly as it is now and more expensive. However the Shas'el commanderl was cheaper than the O and had one stat point less than the O in everything but Strength, Toughness and Initiative. So WS3, BS4, 3W, 3A and 9Ld. In the new codex Vetock removed the Shas'el leaving us only with the Shas'o and his starts creating the Shas'nel (Seriously WTF?) aka the Cadre Fireblade. I still wish he would have given us the ability to make a stealth suit build a commander.

ductvader wrote:

Da krimson barun wrote:

Boniface wrote:


I'd like to go on record and say i think assault is still mostly fine the way it is and i dont agree with all the gripes but... you know.

Of course you find it mostly fine.You play one of the shootiest armies in the shootiest edition.Grab a few orks and fight a tau gunline.Tell me how mostly fine it is then.GrumblegrumbleTaudargrumble....

Pretty sure orks are one of the shootiest armies out there...

Orks? Shooty? Only because they HAVE to be. Ork Boyz have one of the best troop standard guns because of the sheer numbers they bring with it. Outside that ork shooting is pretty gaking stupid. Lootas are only used because we NEED a stronger gun in current meta (last edition i never ever used lootas, now i cant even attempt to play without them) and theyre the only option we have that works. SAG is too random, but we take it anyway because its AP2 and the only AP2 gun we can get (KMB is stupid).
Orky gunlines work against other assaulty armies because they can fight even without melee equipment. Try an orky gunline against Tau, you will die horribly because they outgun you both in shots, range, and strength (and enough AP on every single gun to take out orks in the open easy).
If they dont give them reasons to go back to choppy in the next codex, then seriously wtf lol. The assaulty still works, its just too unreliable atm due to variable charge and overwatch.

Enigma Crisis wrote:

 zephoid wrote:
I was fine with old tau, but two things about new tau annoy the hell out of me:

1: Crisis suit Commander: 4 wounds on a base commander, WTF. Come on here, 3 is fine. Also, drone controller should have been +1 BS, not BS5 marker drones.

In the old codex we had 2 levels of commander Shas'el and Shas'o. The Shas'o commander istats exactly as it is now and more expensive. However the Shas'el commanderl was cheaper than the O and had one stat point less than the O in everything but Strength, Toughness and Initiative. So WS3, BS4, 3W, 3A and 9Ld. In the new codex Vetock removed the Shas'el leaving us only with the Shas'o and his starts creating the Shas'nel (Seriously WTF?) aka the Cadre Fireblade. I still wish he would have given us the ability to make a stealth suit build a commander.

Have to agree i wish we had stealth suit commanders. Even if they only had 3 wounds, T3, and 3 slots to buy stuff for i would use them. Adding stealh + shroud to any unit i want would be epic. Only reason people dont use Shadowsun is because she is 155pts with her drone and outside the drone's rerolls to hits of 1 for 1 unit and her stealth + shroud, she offers next to nothing. Really dont like fusions on stealth suits, and shes forced to have two (that cant even be targetlocked, one must shoot at the normal unit's target effectively wasting it)

Fair's fair. Based on the maths the Orks were the most shooty army in 2nd edition as well.

Experiment 626 wrote:
If all you ever face when playing against SW players for example is 'Hunter spam + Missile spam Long Wangs, then you'll be of the opinion that SW players are d*cks.

Not sure if deliberate or just a hilarious typo...

They are hated for a reason. Too much cheese, anyone that says otherwise is kidding themselves. They are the army for kids, manchildren, and people who value winning over having a fun/good/interesting match. If you play Tau or Taudar, there's a very good chance you have a low self esteem, or a tiny penis. probably both.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
How can you justify a cover save against marker lights? Its a laser pointer, unless you are out of sight to begin with (so i cant even attempt to light you up) try and dodge a laserpointer around a barricade. You cant, because its Light not a weapon.

Also i feel it would force us to either go no markerlights or only use Mark'O drone squads because pathfinders or BS2/3 drones dont apply that many marks without a lot of luck. Usually i get 2-3 marks from a 8man pathfinder team. If you could take a 4+ cover against those, i'd be lucky to have 1.

This post is so contradicting. Light can only travel in straight lines, same as bullets. If that ruin im in hasa chance to stop q bullet from hitting me it must have the same chance to stop a beam of light hitting me to should it not?

The best part is that lasguns are lasers too, yet it's ok to get cover against them.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The best part is that lasguns are lasers too, yet it's ok to get cover against them.

So are hellguns, lascannons, multilasers...

Maybe the difference is that a markerlight isn't so much a weapon as it is a targeting system, so instead of being a flash of a laser with every shot, it uses a lot less power so it's a sustained beam?

Best way to understand why its allowed for laser weapons and not a markerlight is laser weapons some poor git is going to get slammed before you know anything is happening, but the rest will duck and cover before getting aimed at.

Markerlights simply have to be a targeting system, which can easily be a low powered, infrared beam you can have no idea is even targeting you, so you wouldnt know to hide.

Even if the laser based weaponry was dead silent, the fact that your buddy just went splat right beside you is one hell of an indicator to get to the ground fast lol.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The best part is that lasguns are lasers too, yet it's ok to get cover against them.

So are hellguns, lascannons, multilasers...

Maybe the difference is that a markerlight isn't so much a weapon as it is a targeting system, so instead of being a flash of a laser with every shot, it uses a lot less power so it's a sustained beam?

Wouldn't that be EASIER to hide from than something that you literally cannot see coming?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The best part is that lasguns are lasers too, yet it's ok to get cover against them.

So are hellguns, lascannons, multilasers...

Maybe the difference is that a markerlight isn't so much a weapon as it is a targeting system, so instead of being a flash of a laser with every shot, it uses a lot less power so it's a sustained beam?

Wouldn't that be EASIER to hide from than something that you literally cannot see coming?

A little spot of light, maybe not even visible if it's infra-red or something, that doesn't even make you warm if it touches you? In the middle of a battle?

 Pouncey wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The best part is that lasguns are lasers too, yet it's ok to get cover against them.

So are hellguns, lascannons, multilasers...

Maybe the difference is that a markerlight isn't so much a weapon as it is a targeting system, so instead of being a flash of a laser with every shot, it uses a lot less power so it's a sustained beam?

Wouldn't that be EASIER to hide from than something that you literally cannot see coming?

A little spot of light, maybe not even visible if it's infra-red or something, that doesn't even make you warm if it touches you? In the middle of a battle?

You mean the middle of that battle where you're deliberately taking cover and presenting the smallest target possible to the enemy unit (i.e. are in cover)? The one with smoke and dust that can foul up targeting lasers? The one where standing there pointing a literal flashlight at someone long enough for other units to get targeting data is a good way to get your head blown off?

The one where if the markerlight was just a lasgun, you would've already killed your target?

If cover saves replaced 2nd Editions modifiers to hit then the cover save reflects the bullet or laser missing in the first place, rather than an actual save as such.

If we assume that we probably should get a save against markerlights. It must be harder to hit someone in cover, even if you have a laser.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The best part is that lasguns are lasers too, yet it's ok to get cover against them.

So are hellguns, lascannons, multilasers...

Maybe the difference is that a markerlight isn't so much a weapon as it is a targeting system, so instead of being a flash of a laser with every shot, it uses a lot less power so it's a sustained beam?

Wouldn't that be EASIER to hide from than something that you literally cannot see coming?

A little spot of light, maybe not even visible if it's infra-red or something, that doesn't even make you warm if it touches you? In the middle of a battle?

You mean the middle of that battle where you're deliberately taking cover and presenting the smallest target possible to the enemy unit (i.e. are in cover)? The one with smoke and dust that can foul up targeting lasers? The one where standing there pointing a literal flashlight at someone long enough for other units to get targeting data is a good way to get your head blown off?

The one where if the markerlight was just a lasgun, you would've already killed your target?

The laser can be aimed at objects near to the target, they don't have to be pointed at an infantryman's body - except if it's Stargate and a Rebel Jaffa has spotted the Goa'uld he hates the most. Smoke and dust don't foul up visual targeting for anything else, laser or otherwise - barring Ork Warbikes (edit: and vehicles with Smoke Launchers). The targeter can be in cover as well, they don't have to stand out in the open.

A lasgun or even a pulse rifle can take out infantry just fine, but it can't deal with heavily armored vehicles. A markerlight can give a smart missile better accuracy to guide it to a tank or a bunker better, or give a Fire Warrior squad more detailed information as to where an enemy infantry unit is hiding.

sand.zzz wrote:
They are hated for a reason. Too much cheese, anyone that says otherwise is kidding themselves. They are the army for kids, manchildren, and people who value winning over having a fun/good/interesting match. If you play Tau or Taudar, there's a very good chance you have a low self esteem, or a tiny penis. probably both.

Or just love Mechs and hover vehicles. They also play the way I like, not fighting the enemy on their terms, be a hard target fall back when it is advantageous. Fight smarter not harder. Every army has their own cheese.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The best part is that lasguns are lasers too, yet it's ok to get cover against them.

The difference is that the lasgun actually has to hit you to do any damage. If a lasgun shot is stopped by the wall you're hiding behind then you're safe. If a markerlight shot is stopped by the wall you're hiding behind then the seeker missile it's marking you for hits the wall and kills you anyway.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The best part is that lasguns are lasers too, yet it's ok to get cover against them.

The difference is that the lasgun actually has to hit you to do any damage. If a lasgun shot is stopped by the wall you're hiding behind then you're safe. If a markerlight shot is stopped by the wall you're hiding behind then the seeker missile it's marking you for hits the wall and kills you anyway.

Except a demolisher shell (designed to destroy walls) hitting that wall won't kill you, but the missile does, because there was a laser were two lasers pointed at the wall.

How do markerlights remove cover again?

sand.zzz wrote:
They are hated for a reason. Too much cheese, anyone that says otherwise is kidding themselves. They are the army for kids, manchildren, and people who value winning over having a fun/good/interesting match. If you play Tau or Taudar, there's a very good chance you have a low self esteem, or a tiny penis. probably both.

Or we played them before they got so strong, and in spirit of even gaming we dont do the stupid cheesey taudar strats or triple riptides (or quadra).

Tau are not broken. As stated several times throughout this thread, they break the meta and people refuse to adapt. Thats the issue. Eldar are broken, not tau, because at least tau is fragile and all except one of our guns you actually have to worry about are ~30" instead of half an army of table-length like Eldar. And before you say something about stripping cover with any gun, i dont WANT to do that. You hurt my BS making me do that, so cover is still a big boon against tau. I would much rather BS5 w/o ignore cover, than BS3 with ignore cover. But that 4+ cover (3+ going to ground) can nerts a lot of shooting, since most guns that pen power armor or termie armor are low RoF anyway.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The best part is that lasguns are lasers too, yet it's ok to get cover against them.

The difference is that the lasgun actually has to hit you to do any damage. If a lasgun shot is stopped by the wall you're hiding behind then you're safe. If a markerlight shot is stopped by the wall you're hiding behind then the seeker missile it's marking you for hits the wall and kills you anyway.

Except a demolisher shell (designed to destroy walls) hitting that wall won't kill you, but the missile does, because there was a laser were two lasers pointed at the wall.

How do markerlights remove cover again?

Oh, is this discussion about the markerlights removing cover saves from following attacks?

I thought it was about not getting a save against markerlights themselves.

Edit: It just occurred to me how hostile that might've sounded. I genuinely did not know I was talking about the wrong thing. Sorry.

sand.zzz wrote:
They are hated for a reason. Too much cheese, anyone that says otherwise is kidding themselves. They are the army for kids, manchildren, and people who value winning over having a fun/good/interesting match. If you play Tau or Taudar, there's a very good chance you have a low self esteem, or a tiny penis. probably both.

I just wanted to point out that this person is apparently 38-years-old.

If I start acting like this in my old age someone please slap me.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Except a demolisher shell (designed to destroy walls) hitting that wall won't kill you, but the missile does, because there was a laser were two lasers pointed at the wall.

How do markerlights remove cover again?

You know, to me that sounds less like an argument against Tau being able to ignore cover and more like an argument for more "Ignores Cover" in general. And since Guard are supposed to be getting an update soon I'd be real interested in seeing if that changes at all, because a weapon like the demolisher sounds like it really should have it anyway.

Personally I think markerlights work fine the way they are now, except removing a cover save entirely should cost more than two counters. Maybe four, at least.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
How do markerlights remove cover again?

It probably depends on the weapon. For a squad with pulse rifles the markerlights might just improve the shooter's aim enough that they can hit the target instead of the cover. Remember, cover isn't necessarily stopping the shot, it also represents cover making it harder to aim properly, and a markerlight broadcasting a giant "he's right behind this wall" sign could allow the squad to just shoot the target through the wall. And in the case of explosive weapons the markerlights could be getting precise range data to allow the shooter to fire an airburst shot that explodes directly overhead and ignores the wall.

And remember, there's a degree of abstraction in the game mechanics. Yes, there are probably situations where markerlights shouldn't be able to remove cover, but it's much easier to settle for a blanket "ignores cover rule" than to try to analyze whether it would be realistic for the markerlights to work in a particular situation. If you're going to have hiding behind a wall (4+ cover) be worthless against lasgun shots if you're wearing power armor (3+ armor) then you're conceding that it isn't perfectly realistic.

@Vineheart01:

"How can you justify a cover save against marker lights? Its a laser pointer, unless you are out of sight to begin with (so i cant even attempt to light you up) try and dodge a laserpointer around a barricade. You cant, because its Light not a weapon".

OK I agree, yeah they could be outside of the visible spectrum, so you have me there. But "cinematically", when was the last time that you saw laser pointers being aimed at someone in a film/TV and the "hero" (I know grimdark, there are no good guys), didnt spot the marker light and then duck out of the way.

But unless you're painting a cluster bomb, pointing it at the ruin won't hit the guys inside, you'd just hit the ruin.

Just think that it might help mitigate the fact that you've got an extra 12" of blowing me to smithereens before my 2 cultists eventually get into cc.

There's definitely armies out there that can take the Tau. Unfortunately I don't own one so there's little point even unboxing to play them until I get drop pods to get me near you.

Probably the only way I can get a win vs Tau is to pack 3/4 Heldrakes, which I'll never lower myself to doing.

 Vineheart01 wrote:

sand.zzz wrote:
They are hated for a reason. Too much cheese, anyone that says otherwise is kidding themselves. They are the army for kids, manchildren, and people who value winning over having a fun/good/interesting match. If you play Tau or Taudar, there's a very good chance you have a low self esteem, or a tiny penis. probably both.

Or we played them before they got so strong, and in spirit of even gaming we dont do the stupid cheesey taudar strats or triple riptides (or quadra).

Tau are not broken. As stated several times throughout this thread, they break the meta and people refuse to adapt. Thats the issue. Eldar are broken, not tau, because at least tau is fragile and all except one of our guns you actually have to worry about are ~30" instead of half an army of table-length like Eldar. And before you say something about stripping cover with any gun, i dont WANT to do that. You hurt my BS making me do that, so cover is still a big boon against tau. I would much rather BS5 w/o ignore cover, than BS3 with ignore cover. But that 4+ cover (3+ going to ground) can nerts a lot of shooting, since most guns that pen power armor or termie armor are low RoF anyway.

er the Riptide is fragile - in what universe - its one of the most durable units in the game with no drawbacks...............

I like the Tau background and some of their models - but the Riptide is underpointed for what it does

 Vineheart01 wrote:

sand.zzz wrote:
They are hated for a reason. Too much cheese, anyone that says otherwise is kidding themselves. They are the army for kids, manchildren, and people who value winning over having a fun/good/interesting match. If you play Tau or Taudar, there's a very good chance you have a low self esteem, or a tiny penis. probably both.

Or we played them before they got so strong, and in spirit of even gaming we dont do the stupid cheesey taudar strats or triple riptides (or quadra).

Tau are not broken. As stated several times throughout this thread, they break the meta and people refuse to adapt. Thats the issue. Eldar are broken, not tau, because at least tau is fragile and all except one of our guns you actually have to worry about are ~30" instead of half an army of table-length like Eldar. And before you say something about stripping cover with any gun, i dont WANT to do that. You hurt my BS making me do that, so cover is still a big boon against tau. I would much rather BS5 w/o ignore cover, than BS3 with ignore cover. But that 4+ cover (3+ going to ground) can nerts a lot of shooting, since most guns that pen power armor or termie armor are low RoF anyway.

I love the defense where people blame the person raising the concern for refusing to "adapt" to their army...

I play six armies, some of them can handle Tau just fine, some of them can not. Most of them can not in fact and it has very little to do with adapting to Tau, it has more to do with the fact that their codex is leaps and bounds more powerful than say the Tyranid or Ork codex. The meta before Tau came along was flier spam, I still only own a single Storm Raven as my sole flier across all of my armies so Tau certainly didn't make my life in harder in terms of the meta. What Tau do that is so irritating and makes them OP is their ability to completely nullify the assault phase. They can jump around and keep our of range, they have massive range on their basic guns, the have incredible overwatch, they have an unending tool box in which they can make assault completely invalid. So, "adapting" as so many people like to call it means playing the shootiest army we can make with codices that have substandard shooting to begin with. MOST Tyranid list that you see now are built around TL BL Devourers, spaming gaunts, and Tervigons. Orks focus on shoota boyz and lootas, throwing buckets of dice and playing the odds that you will throw enough dice to roll enough fives and sixes.

People don't like Tau because they force every army to play on their terms because they have the tools to make assault invalid against them. This meta shift means that if I want to play in a Tournament or make an TAC list I need to build it to beat Tau and Eldar, which require two completely different list in order to even compete. That is why BOTH armies get so much hate thrown their way.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
I love the defense where people blame the person raising the concern for refusing to "adapt" to their army...

It's even funnier when he says they break the meta and people need to adapt. They reinforce the meta of sit back and shoot everything because it's better to gunline than assault. They are just better at it than other gunlines at the moment.

I love how people blame tau for being OP for their JSJ shenanigans with the suits (who cost alot, and except rippy are rather fragile), when eldar do it with EVERY SINGLE UNIT, and many of them do it better. (the jetbike troops? yea, they got JSJ with 3 dice rather then 2.)

Also blame them for haivng the ability to ignore cover with guns, when most armies got that same rule built into some of their guns without the need to dedicate markerlights for it.

Or the fact they shoot like crazy when they are mostly mere BS3 without any markers to support it first (who are, in turn mostly BS3 themselves), markerlight who CANNOT reach over 36", shorter range then enemy cover ignoring guns.


They are leaps and bounds over nids and orks?
Sure they are.
SO ARE EVERYONE ELSE.
Nids and Ors are not a freaking example! they cannot fight SM either, or Eldar, or necrons, or demons. IG, AS and GK also mocks them.
Heck they are not a fair match even against the sub-par CSM and DA!
These two are so freaking flawed in 6th they cannot even handle themselves properly!
You do not use a piece of paper to test the strength of a steel bar. stop using orks and nids as "why tau are OP"-use codcies who are actually any good if any.


As for how the markerlights help you ignore cover, its not like its a simple red dot other soldiers see and go like "lets shoot at THAT", it shoots a small beam of light, and analyzes reflections made by it, using said data to make an image of whatever it is you are marking.
Once the target is marked, the data analyzed is sent to the calculation devices in the other unit's optical measures (Hench why battle brothers cant use markerlights, only the tau themselves can) who in turn tells them not where is the target, but how THEY are supposed to shoot.
It tells them "stand like X, point at direction Y, with angle Z, etc" the unit who actually makes the shot does not know WHY he is shooting like that, he just knows it will hit better that way.
So to get a BS boost, you just need 1 hit, and each hit increases it further-it gives you more and more data on what you should do in order to properly impact the target, under the assumption you are sure about its location-and not fooled by its cover.
Using TWO however, will allow you to triangulate using the firer's own position as the third point, meaning that while you dont get a better idea on what you should do, you know where the target is-the fact he is hidden from sight is irrelevant, you got pinpoint "GPS" location of where he is hiding.

Now the fact cover is a save that competes with armor, and not something incorporated into your chances to actuall hit the target is a silly thing by itself, and a mechanic that does not transulate into real life, at all.
Many guns makes no sense under the 40k cover mechanics, markerlights is the one thing that does.

 BoomWolf wrote:
(Hench why battle brothers cant use markerlights, only the tau themselves can)

So, did Farsight not upgrade from the free 30 day trial then?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
(Hench why battle brothers cant use markerlights, only the tau themselves can)

So, did Farsight not upgrade from the free 30 day trial then?

...
...
...
...*slow clap*

Ok, so the riptide isnt fragile. Yes, youre right, theyre tough as nails.

One model in an entire army doesnt remove the "Fragile army" tag. And there are ways to deal with riptides, ive lost mine to a single shooting wave several times against eldar or other tau. Or jaws for that matter (damn dpods lol).

Back on my rant about Eldar, more than half of their damn army is T5/6+ that are the dangerous targets as well. We have one unit that is both tough and dangerous, they have what 5? Seems like everything that isnt the general ramshackle troop is T5+ that i have to deal with.

For what it's worth, I hate Eldar far more than Tau. With mono Tau, I feel like I've got a shot if a few Riptide blasts go astray. Even if I don't really have a chance, I at least FEEL like it.

Against Eldar, I know what is going to happen and there's nothing I can do to stop it, because they aren't going to miss with their bucket of S6/7 death and the will force so many saves that the Law of Large Amounts of Dice will make it so I can't even get lucky.