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Bharring wrote:
So what people are saying is it's not so bad, as long as you melta-drop or play Tau?

I play Imperial Guard and it isn't bad.

Just played a game against a stompa. The games can feel overwheling at points but the rules are stacked against the lord of war for sure. Most of the missions and rules revolve around damaging it.

additionally if you make a non deathstar army you should be fine. They can only kill so many of your units and you are not using up a quarter or more of your points.

IMO it isnt the cost or power. Its the complexity. Its another whole set of rules that arent in the big book. It can be really annoying looking things up. Different tables and rules/missions.

I thought the panic about Escalation was that everyone would be bringing Revenants with 2x Pulsars and throwing out four large D templates every turn?

The "panic" isn't really about adding Super Heavies and GCs, it's the absurd power of Str D. If all the Str D and AV15 was gone, people would most likely just accept the latest two expansions with a little whinge. As it stands though, armies with Titan access are at a huge advantage. CSM+Belakor+Warhound is stupid, as is Revenants in void shields, etc. Str D has always been the main contention.

Wait wait wait... this is the stupidest thing iv ever heard. So why is everyone so up in arms about banning these books from what seems like EVER being used when the PROBLEM IS JUST D-WEAPONS?

How about...wait...dare i say it? Allow the superheavies, ban D-weapons? Suddenly that big scary titan is just an overpriced tank with alot of hullpoints. Iv already killed a few superheavies with my chaos marines no sweat. People need to nut up.

Bharring wrote:
So what people are saying is it's not so bad, as long as you melta-drop or play Tau?

that's not it at all. Super heavies are simply normal vehicles with more HP and (maybe) access to D-weapons. if you can take out 3 Leman russ tanks, you can certainly take out a baneblade or shadow sword. Likewise, gargantuan creatures are just monstrous creatures but bigger and more monstrous, gargantuan in fact, so if you can kill a monstrous creature, you can kill a gargantuan.
Grav weapons, lascannons, mass high strength fire and so forth will all drop Gargantuans in their tracks. So, if your army cannot deal with vehicles or monstrous creatures, then they wont be able to deal with Super heavies or gargantuans either, and thats more down to army selection than it is the relative balance of the armies or units.

The contentious issue and what makes super heavies 'scary' is D-weapons, since those can demolish most traditional deathstars with ease. if you are canny, and realise that D-weapons have a fairly limited footprint and can destroy your deathstars, then you counter with no deathstar, or multiple deathstars, and enough firepower, of whatever sort, to blast the death dealing monstrosity from the board

"People just afraid, handing me they bracelets"

best way to describe some of these anti-escalation responders. try playing a couple games with non-D weapon wielding Lords of War and see for yourself how 'bad' and 'one-sided' the game will be to your detriment.

Eyjio wrote:
CSM+Belakor+Warhound is stupid, as is Revenants in void shields, etc. Str D has always been the main contention.

And what points level do you plan on playing that at? Heck who in their right mind would play against that if they have no answer for it? I'm all for escalation and I dont believe the average 40K player would field that.

Be realistic about your whining please.

Some of the Lords of War are way underpriced and also one-shot your Lord of War so you don't get to have anything interesting. A loldar titan is only 12 points more than the Lord of Skulls even while there doesn't really exist a scenario where the giant berzerker wins, even if it could somehow manage to live through 4D:s at 60 range it still could never catch the damn thing.

BTW I find it funny that they don't even mention the thing in WD, nor do they speak of the C'Tan. They just babble on about the Obelisk or somehting, yeah, I bet it's hard to sell "A Revenant titan basically kills two units per turn - also it oneshots every other Lord of War so it automatically wins against them."

Quick question--if I contemptuously say that I can effortlessly beat those units in threads like this and claim that everyone needs to adapt, will that give me more gamer street cred?

 Elemental wrote:
Quick question--if I contemptuously say that I can effortlessly beat those units in threads like this and claim that everyone needs to adapt, will that give me more gamer street cred?

Perhaps. But if i fail at sarcasm, do I still get points for trying?

I would love to battle a gargantuan creature! The image of soldiers shooting (possibly in vain) against one massive monster is awesome!

Renegade_commander wrote:
Wait wait wait... this is the stupidest thing iv ever heard. So why is everyone so up in arms about banning these books from what seems like EVER being used when the PROBLEM IS JUST D-WEAPONS?

How about...wait...dare i say it? Allow the superheavies, ban D-weapons? Suddenly that big scary titan is just an overpriced tank with alot of hullpoints. Iv already killed a few superheavies with my chaos marines no sweat. People need to nut up.

That's one solution. People in my area are looking at ways to house rule Str D instead so that it's less point-click-win. Hell, I've been playing games like "1k VS Hierophant" for years, the only difference now is it's "officially" supported. The real contention though is people are unwilling to add so much to the game then ban half of it, plus no-one has come up with some universal magic solution to Str D. It may happen, it may not. We'll see.

 Gitsmasher wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
CSM+Belakor+Warhound is stupid, as is Revenants in void shields, etc. Str D has always been the main contention.

And what points level do you plan on playing that at? Heck who in their right mind would play against that if they have no answer for it? I'm all for escalation and I dont believe the average 40K player would field that.

Be realistic about your whining please.

I am being realistic and I wasn't whining. If you ask people to play Escalation with you, some people will bring Titans. It's not unreasonable to expect them to also bring the best Daemon Prince in the game with it. It's very possible at 1850. The "average 40k player" doesn't exist - the huge divide over FW, Apocalypse and comp should have already shown you that by now. The people in my area switch between very fluffy lists and then trying as hard as possible to win. I'm sorry if that somehow offends your sensibilities.

Also, try not to instantly insult the person you're responding to next time. It makes it very hard to take your post seriously.

 Elemental wrote:
Quick question--if I contemptuously say that I can effortlessly beat those units in threads like this and claim that everyone needs to adapt, will that give me more gamer street cred?

Only if you say it's with Orks and that everyone else is just playing them wrong.

Well, superheavies can imbalance the game. If you field an army which has nothing against a Revenant Titan, you'll probably loose. Then you just can play for the objectives to have a chance. But this is not so bad either. We'll allow superheavies in our next to the next RTT.

Eyjio wrote:

 Gitsmasher wrote:

Eyjio wrote:
CSM+Belakor+Warhound is stupid, as is Revenants in void shields, etc. Str D has always been the main contention.

And what points level do you plan on playing that at? Heck who in their right mind would play against that if they have no answer for it? I'm all for escalation and I dont believe the average 40K player would field that.

Be realistic about your whining please.

I am being realistic and I wasn't whining. If you ask people to play Escalation with you, some people will bring Titans. It's not unreasonable to expect them to also bring the best Daemon Prince in the game with it. It's very possible at 1850. The "average 40k player" doesn't exist - the huge divide over FW, Apocalypse and comp should have already shown you that by now. The people in my area switch between very fluffy lists and then trying as hard as possible to win. I'm sorry if that somehow offends your sensibilities.

Also, try not to instantly insult the person you're responding to next time. It makes it very hard to take your post seriously.

And how exactly is telling someone to be realistic about whining about a board game insulting? Sensitive much? Also if you would have been paying attention to the most talked about gripe you would realize that most people can't afford the fw models. And people actually believe that if you can't afford to play the game. "ie.... fw models" then nobody should play ! Talk about insulting.

And if you'd paid attention, you'd have realised that FW models aren't that expensive. GW prices have increased THAT much...

Aren't that expensive?

I mean, maybe you're the scion of a wealthy family and have no concept of money. But I make a fairly comfortable living and I still recognize that $500+ for a single hunk of resin is a lot of money.

Certain armies get the D on the "cheap" like IGuard or Orks. Other armies don't have low-priced choices.

If you'd paid attention, you'd know that.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
And if you'd paid attention, you'd have realised that FW models aren't that expensive. GW prices have increased THAT much...

This! And also no discounts in sight.

 Gitsmasher wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
This topic came up on Bolter & Chainsword, and I said this there:

But the reason why people are a bit perturbed that now they can't even play regular 40K without having to negotiate out titans is fairly obvious to me. It just makes the game that much more of a hassle if you just kinda liked it the way it was.

You have to negotiate to play 40K or any points based game regardless. So your point is moot.

It's only moot when you fail to realize that the point is adding even more negotiation to a game than is already necessary. It isn't that you have to negotiate. Life is a series of negotiations. Welcome to the party, the rest of us have been here a while.

Let's stop fighting before this thread gets locked...

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Gitsmasher wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
This topic came up on Bolter & Chainsword, and I said this there:

But the reason why people are a bit perturbed that now they can't even play regular 40K without having to negotiate out titans is fairly obvious to me. It just makes the game that much more of a hassle if you just kinda liked it the way it was.

You have to negotiate to play 40K or any points based game regardless. So your point is moot.

It's only moot when you fail to realize that the point is adding even more negotiation to a game than is already necessary.It isn't that you have to negotiate. Life is a series of negotiations. Welcome to the party, the rest of us have been here a while.

Technically you don't have to negotiate escalation as its a supplement in the same way the farsight enclave is.

Based on what I bolded you should have no problem playing against someone using a super-heavy then

Behave kids.

"Now watch closely, everyone. I'm going to show you how to kill a god. A god of life and death. The trick is not to fear him. " -Lady Eboshi

War is never fair. But I'll be damned before I back down from fighting a Lord of War. Fighting to the bitter end, for glory, for the narrative. My armies may be crushed, but were scratching the paint and thinning their ranks before we go.

So... I'll re-read my codex, re-balance my lists, and try to play a better strategy than my opponent.

 Igenstilch wrote:
"Now watch closely, everyone. I'm going to show you how to kill a god. A god of life and death. The trick is not to fear him. " -Lady Eboshi

War is never fair. But I'll be damned before I back down from fighting a Lord of War. Fighting to the bitter end, for glory, for the narrative. My armies may be crushed, but were scratching the paint and thinning their ranks before we go.

So... I'll re-read my codex, re-balance my lists, and try to play a better strategy than my opponent.

Exalted this post my brother!

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Aren't that expensive?

I mean, maybe you're the scion of a wealthy family and have no concept of money. But I make a fairly comfortable living and I still recognize that $500+ for a single hunk of resin is a lot of money.

Yay, hyperbole. How droll. A lot of money != "expensive". Compared to playing 40k at all a Titan is no longer expensive - it remains a lot of money, but relatively is cheaper, for a lot of races, than the same number of points in wave serpents and troops to fill them. It's just in one lump sump, so feels more costly.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Aren't that expensive?

I mean, maybe you're the scion of a wealthy family and have no concept of money. But I make a fairly comfortable living and I still recognize that $500+ for a single hunk of resin is a lot of money.

Yay, hyperbole. How droll. A lot of money != "expensive". Compared to playing 40k at all a Titan is no longer expensive - it remains a lot of money, but relatively is cheaper, for a lot of races, than the same number of points in wave serpents and troops to fill them. It's just in one lump sump, so feels more costly.

That's just it getting 50.00 - 75.00 bucks isn't that hard for a working adult, but 500.00 + dollars for a single model is going to be harder or at least take longer for many players especially those of us with wives (they tend to ask questions when that much Dow goes into a toy). I thankfully play Orks which have the cheapest option for a LOW but I don't envy those SM players. At least, as many others have said previously a LOW can be taken down without anouther LOW.

For all those arguing cash costs. 40k isn't exactly the cheapest game to get onto....

Scratch building is always an option. A well built model will always get more praise than a model bought. (though there's envy for money spent, I would rather have praise).
You don't have to have a lord of war to compete, but if you feel you need D weapons and void shields. You could easily build a fortification from scratch and equip it with the Aquila macro cannon, or what ever you want to name it for your faction. You could even make it part of a display board for your army.

Also, to the best of my knowledge, every army has a troop choice with access to weapons that can damage super heavies and gargantuan creatures.

 Igenstilch wrote:


Also, to the best of my knowledge, every army has a troop choice with access to weapons that can damage super heavies and gargantuan creatures.

At the rate GW is updating armies it's only a matter of time before any army that cant currently deal with superheavies using dex units will be able too.

Just give it time guys.

Its the greater daemons of chaos, Ann'grath specifically as I've watched him solo entire armies. The new C'Tan is concerning as obsurd as well, an SD hellstorm template wat?

Orkhead wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Aren't that expensive?

I mean, maybe you're the scion of a wealthy family and have no concept of money. But I make a fairly comfortable living and I still recognize that $500+ for a single hunk of resin is a lot of money.

Yay, hyperbole. How droll. A lot of money != "expensive". Compared to playing 40k at all a Titan is no longer expensive - it remains a lot of money, but relatively is cheaper, for a lot of races, than the same number of points in wave serpents and troops to fill them. It's just in one lump sump, so feels more costly.

That's just it getting 50.00 - 75.00 bucks isn't that hard for a working adult, but 500.00 + dollars for a single model is going to be harder or at least take longer for many players especially those of us with wives (they tend to ask questions when that much Dow goes into a toy). I thankfully play Orks which have the cheapest option for a LOW but I don't envy those SM players. At least, as many others have said previously a LOW can be taken down without anouther LOW.

No, it takes the same amount of time, or less, to get a revenants worth of points as a revenant than it does wave serpents and stuff to fill. It FEELS a long time, as it is a single model vs lots of smaller purchases. It's like saving for anything

The cost argument has long been a bogus one - it's been about five years now since a DKOK army became cheaper than a vostroyan, or Mordian army.