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 streamdragon wrote:
I guess "Arcane" covers Wizard, Sorcerer and Warlock with all their respective individual class abilities?

I think it just covers the spells, and not class features; Arcane does encompass those classes.

Just played through the 5th ed starter set... wow

In the first encounter our cleric died outright (suprise round), halfing rouge got knocked out.

Enter the goblin warren/hidout.

Battle with bugbear lasted 6 rounds

Round 1, Cleric 2 (me) brought to 0 hitpointse (Rolled my "death saves" early and rolled 2 3 5 so I was dead in 3 turns)

Round 2, fighter brought to 2 hitpoints

Round 3, Fighter brought to 0 and mage killed outright

Round 4, Cleric/fighter die (fighter rolled a 1 on his death save so died outright, and a wolf attacked his body)

Round 5, human rogue killed

Round 6, halfing rouge killed.

Before our group decided to head to the goblin warren/hidout we thought about going to tresendor manor

Our DM tells us not to because the cr 1/4 thugs they are stronger than the goblins..

So after this we, read through the stats of all the monsters...

why are CR 1/4 monsters stronger than level 1 pcs?

Goblins get a bonus action every turn to Stealth/disengage.. why?

the thugs get 2 attacks per turn?

First impressions of this edition, its simple and somewhat boring. needs more work.

It's a starter; it's supposed to be simple. Look at the previews for the phb.

Also, sounds like your party needs scouts to prevent surprise. Were your fighters using second wind? Were you working together? We used the pregens and had no deaths.

 pretre wrote:
We used the pregens and had no deaths.

Same here. Not sure why everyone died so much unless it was every man for himself or missed a rule somewhere here or there. My players got beat around and hurt, but no one died.

 pretre wrote:
It's a starter; it's supposed to be simple. Look at the previews for the phb.
Also, sounds like your party needs scouts to prevent surprise.

Our rogues did scout, didn't spot the goblins and cleric 1 got killed outright in the suprise round.

 pretre wrote:
Were your fighters using second wind?

you only get second wind once per long/short rest. and its 1d10+fighter level, vs getting hit for an average of 11 dmg a turn from the bugbear
fighter was at 2 hp from round 2, round 3 he used second wind to gain 3 hp back (5hp total), 2 goblins bring him down with their arrows.
Bug bear walks past his body to kill the mage outright due to massive damage.

 pretre wrote:
Were you working together?

Yup, didn't help that the stats in this game are either Dead or alive at level 1.

 pretre wrote:
We used the pregens and had no deaths.

Did your DM have the Goblins Attack, stealth, move every round so they had an attack advantage every turn, or Disengage instead of stealth which for some reason gives them a free double movement per turn?

Once per short rest is basically once per encounter and yes, I was the dm and the goblins didn't last long enough for most shenanigans.

I'm unsure how your cleric got killed outright since the goblins do d6 plus 2. If he's alive at 1 that can't kill him. I guess if all four Focus on him...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Our bugbear knocked down the fighter and then got focused on by the Mage, cleric, rogue and other fighter. Kill the boss first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ninjacommando wrote:

 pretre wrote:
We used the pregens and had no deaths.

Did your DM have the Goblins Attack, stealth, move every round so they had an attack advantage every turn, or Disengage instead of stealth which for some reason gives them a free double movement per turn?

Okay, so I double checked this. They get one bonus action (hide or disengage).
So they can:
1) Attack, Disengage, move.
2) Disengage, move, hide.
3) Attack, hide, move.

In order to get advantage every turn, they would need to be in cover (hiding requires you to be out of sight) and it opposed by your perception. If you're not flushing them from cover, then yes, they will have advantage every turn. But it seems like that would be priority. In the first fight, 2 charge you and 2 shoot at you (written in the encounter). I guess if you were having your Cleric tank and in the front of the party, it's possible that all four would attack them, but unlikely. Furthermore, the players shouldn't all have been surprised. The goblins only have a +6 modifier and there are four of them. Your scouts should have seen one of them at least and gotten a shot off first (+3 initiative modifier vs +2 goblin initiative) (Assuming of course that you were not just blindly walking up to the horses and assuming a trap.)

I'm not saying it's impossible, but played well it should have been fine.

 pretre wrote:
Once per short rest is basically once per encounter and yes, I was the dm and the goblins didn't last long enough for most shenanigans.

I'm unsure how your cleric got killed outright since the goblins do d6 plus 2. If he's alive at 1 that can't kill him. I guess if all four Focus on him....

First encounter

Suprise round
1 crit (brought to zero) and then 3 normal attack into Cleric for 3 failed death saves. (Cleric killed outright)

Round 1, Goblins attack, stealth, move
all of their attacks are aimed at me but they miss,
I cast shield of faith, (AC 20) and move into the woods
rogues and mage hide in the woods (they rolled poorly)

Round 2, Goblins attack, stealth, move (2 fail to stealth but still move)
they bring the halfing rogue to 0 and the mage to 1
I use sacred flames on one of them and kill it,
Human rogue wounds another
Halfing mage hides

Round 3, goblins attack, stealth, move (they miss)
Rouge, and I ready an action to attack the goblins when they reappear

Round 4, goblins attack, stealth, move(they miss)
Rogue, and I miss
Rouge, Mage and I ready an action to attack the goblins when they reappear

Round 5, goblins attack, stealth, move(they miss)
Rogue, mage and I miss
Rouge, Mage and I ready an action to attack the goblins when they reappear

Round 6, Round 3, goblins attack, and fail to stealth, and move
Rogue, mage and I kill 2 goblins

Round 7, Goblin attacks, moves disengages to move agian
Human rouge kills the goblin as its running away.

Bug bear room.

Round 1, Goblins focus me down,

fighter moves up to engage the bugbear
Bug bear + wolves move to fighter but they miss all attacks
rogues and mage move up (maintaining a good distance from the bugbear)
Party wiffs all attacks,

Round 2, Goblins wiff attacks agianst party.
Fighter hits the bugbear for 4 damage
Bugbear + wolves bring him down to 2 hp
Rogues and mage wiff attacks

Round 3, goblins wiff attacks agianst everyone
Fighter use second wind to gain 3 hp,
Wolves attack fighter bringing him to 0,
Bug bear walks past and kills the mage due to massive damage
rogues attack bugbear (bring him to around 13 hp) and move back

Round 4, Goblins wiff again
fighter rolls a 1 on his death save,
wolve attacks him and me (both of us are dead now, though it didn;t matter anyways because I got a 5 for this turn)
Bug bear moves foward
Rogues kill bugbear and move back

Round 5, Goblins move attack disengage and kill the human rogue
Wolve moves up to attack the halfing, Wiffs attacks
Halfing rouge kills the wolf and moves back

Round 6, Goblins Move, attack and kill the halfling.

 Ninjacommando wrote:
First encounter

Suprise round
1 crit (brought to zero) and then 3 normal attack into Cleric for 3 failed death saves. (Cleric killed outright)

So not a single one of your party members noticed stealthed goblins? And then two goblins charged the same dude and shot at the same dude? What was your party order? Cleric 60 feet in front of the party?

Round 1, Goblins attack, stealth, move
all of their attacks are aimed at me but they miss,
I cast shield of faith, (AC 20) and move into the woods
rogues and mage hide in the woods (they rolled poorly)

Wait, so round one, you don't shoot or attack once? Umm, there's your problem. Shield of faith is a bonus. So move into the woods and shoot the goblins. Or shoot the goblins and move into the woods.

Round 2, Goblins attack, stealth, move (2 fail to stealth but still move)
they bring the halfing rogue to 0 and the mage to 1
I use sacred flames on one of them and kill it,
Human rogue wounds another
Halfing mage hides

There's no 'fail to stealth'. You roll against their hide check with your perception. If you weren't actively looking for them and shooting them or charging them, I don't know what to say. Your rogues should also be going before the bad guys so at worst can ready an action to shoot when they appear (before they attack).

fighter moves up to engage the bugbear
Bug bear + wolves move to fighter but they miss all attacks
rogues and mage move up (maintaining a good distance from the bugbear)
Party wiffs all attacks,

Why don't your rogues have advantage? Halfling at least can hide behind a party member. Other rogues should be hiding before you enter a room.

Round 2, Goblins wiff attacks agianst party.
Fighter hits the bugbear for 4 damage
Bugbear + wolves bring him down to 2 hp
Rogues and mage wiff attacks

Did the guy playing the cleric just quit? No extra character for him?

Round 4, Goblins wiff again
fighter rolls a 1 on his death save,
wolve attacks him and me (both of us are dead now, though it didn;t matter anyways because I got a 5 for this turn)
Bug bear moves foward
Rogues kill bugbear and move back

Why is the wolf attacking an unconscious character?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, you had some bad luck, but I think there's also some major tactical and understanding errors going on here.

 pretre wrote:
So not a single one of your party members noticed stealthed goblins? And then two goblins charged the same dude and shot at the same dude? What was your party order? Cleric 60 feet in front of the party?

Nope the DM had the goblins take postions in the forest because they saw us before we saw them.

 pretre wrote:
Wait, so round one, you don't shoot or attack once? Umm, there's your problem. Shield of faith is a bonus. So move into the woods and shoot the goblins. Or shoot the goblins and move into the woods.

Goblins went first after the suprise round, they attacked hid, and then moved,
each of our individual perpection rolls didn't beat their stealth checks so yeah we really couldn't shoot at them

 pretre wrote:
There's no 'fail to stealth'. You roll against their hide check with your perception. If you weren't actively looking for them and shooting them or charging them, I don't know what to say. Your rogues should also be going before the bad guys so at worst can ready an action to shoot when they appear (before they attack).

When I said "Fail to stealth" it means that the Cleric 2 (me) and our Rogue managed to beat two of their checks with our perception

 pretre wrote:
Why don't your rogues have advantage? Halfling at least can hide behind a party member. Other rogues should be hiding before you enter a room.

Rogues didn't have advantage because the Cave isn't lit, I was holding the torch (thats why I died first) and because of their positions it would be impossible for them to hide while casting shadows

 pretre wrote:
Did the guy playing the cleric just quit? No extra character for him?

He's the fighter, I was at 0 hitpoints turn 1 so I couldn't heal him.
Group comp at first encounter was 2 clerics 2 rogues and 1 mage
Group comp at the goblin cave was 1 fighter, 1 cleric, 2 rogues, 1 mage

 pretre wrote:
Why is the wolf attacking an unconscious character?

Cause its a wolf and not an intelligent creature, DM rolled percentile for it to either attack an alive character or one on the ground.

 pretre wrote:

I mean, you had some bad luck, but I think there's also some major tactical and understanding errors going on here

The problem is that CR 1/4 monster have better abitlties than low level characters.

 Ninjacommando wrote:

 pretre wrote:
So not a single one of your party members noticed stealthed goblins? And then two goblins charged the same dude and shot at the same dude? What was your party order? Cleric 60 feet in front of the party?

Nope the DM had the goblins take postions in the forest because they saw us before we saw them.

Right, but the rules for surprise say you get a chance to see the people trying to surprise you (P9). If he didn't let you do that, he wasn't following the rules. Also, two goblins are supposed to charge (they're not hiding if they charge). Again, DM didn't follow the starter/rules.

Goblins went first after the suprise round, they attacked hid, and then moved,

Goblins have a +2 init modifier. Your rogues and the bow fighter have a +3. Why did the goblins go first?

Rogues didn't have advantage because the Cave isn't lit, I was holding the torch (thats why I died first) and because of their positions it would be impossible for them to hide while casting shadows

Halflings can hide if they are obscured by a larger creature, like anyone in your party. Also, why wouldn't the rogues start in the shadows. torches give off dim light, which is light concealment (P6).

Cause its a wolf and not an intelligent creature, DM rolled percentile for it to either attack an alive character or one on the ground.

There's no rules for attacking helpless creatures in the starter, so your DM made that up as he went along.

 pretre wrote:
The problem is that CR 1/4 monster have better abitlties than low level characters.

No, the problem is that the DM gave them rules interpretations to make them better than low level characters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, you had some bad luck with some rolls, but your DM was also ruling (outside of RAW) pretty soundly against you.

Cause its a wolf and not an intelligent creature

Wolves are actually pretty smart creatures.

 Ahtman wrote:

Cause its a wolf and not an intelligent creature

Wolves are actually pretty smart creatures.

Agreed. Certainly they are smart enough to tell what is a threat and what isn't-- they aren't going to start gorging themselves on a meal while there's still fighting going on. They're some of the most intelligent pack hunters in the world.

Havent actually run the starting adventure yet but just reading it I could easily see that first fight going against the PCs. That's part of the nature of low level (non4e) D&D.

Just to start: the goblins have +6 stealth, which is resisted by PASSIVE perception of the party. The best passive perception is 13, so the goblins only need an 8 to stay hidden. Not exactly hard for the goblins to end up with a surprise round. Even on active perception versus stealth, the best Perception of the starter set characters is +3; half the bonus the goblins are getting for stealth.

Goblins are getting +4 to-hit for d6+2 damage. Even if you use average damage (which is better for the party than rolling), 2 hits on the wizard (hits on 8+) drop him. Same with the rogue, although it's naturally a bit harder to hit the rogue. The archers should be practically immune to retaliation at first, since they are in an area they can hide easily, and can do so as a bonus action (before or after moving).

And certainly it shouldnt be that odd for ambushing monsters to focus fire one enemy down. It's certainly what the PCs would do, even if it sucks for the player on the receiving end! I would also argue it makes perfect sense to focus the mage and rogue first, and they will be the least armored and thus the most likely to drop. (Manchu's dwarven wizard not withstanding. So totally stealing that idea, btw!)

Anyway, I look forward to running the starter adventure at some point. Not sure when we will be switching away from our current 4e game, and none of the group has really expressed any interest in switching to 5e just yet.

 streamdragon wrote:
Just to start: the goblins have +6 stealth, which is resisted by PASSIVE perception of the party. The best passive perception is 13, so the goblins only need an 8 to stay hidden. Not exactly hard for the goblins to end up with a surprise round. Even on active perception versus stealth, the best Perception of the starter set characters is +3; half the bonus the goblins are getting for stealth.

Right, but according to the starter, prior to the surprise round, everyone gets to see if they are surprised so 5 players all roll their perception and try to beat 4 different goblin's stealth. Chances are someone is going to see them.

Goblins are getting +4 to-hit for d6+2 damage. Even if you use average damage (which is better for the party than rolling), 2 hits on the wizard (hits on 8+) drop him. Same with the rogue, although it's naturally a bit harder to hit the rogue. The archers should be practically immune to retaliation at first, since they are in an area they can hide easily, and can do so as a bonus action (before or after moving).

The players get a cart to start with. Our party (when they saw the dead horses), sent a hidden rogue up and positioned themselves 30 feet back from the horses with the archer hiding and everyone else ready for battle.

And certainly it shouldnt be that odd for ambushing monsters to focus fire one enemy down. It's certainly what the PCs would do, even if it sucks for the player on the receiving end! I would also argue it makes perfect sense to focus the mage and rogue first, and they will be the least armored and thus the most likely to drop. (Manchu's dwarven wizard not withstanding. So totally stealing that idea, btw!)

Except the book has very specific orders for the goblins. 2 Charge and 2 Shoot. I suppose with poor party setup, they could charge the same person, but it's unlikely. (Unless, like I said, they all see the rogue who snuck forward or the cleric stands 50 feet in front of the party by himself.)

My group didn't see the goblins (they rolled a 23 stealth) so the goblins got a surprise round, but I wasn't dickish enough to make them all attack the same target. They just each went after the closest, with the two melee going for whoever went up the wreck (cleric and fighter) and the two archers picking a different target near the wagon (archer and wizard). Unless the party really sets themselves up for it, like the cleric going off alone up front, using Ninja Gaiden tactics at level 1 is not very nice.

And the goblins are still at a +3 differential on their stealth compared to the players. You were surprised that players didnt go first with their +1 initiative differential, it shouldnt be any surpise that the goblins would stay hidden.

How the actual ambush unfolds will naturally vary from party to party; I wouldnt have my ambushers jump people who are still hiding in cover, for instance. Makes for a poor ambush!

And it wouldnt be hard (depending on PC placement, of course) for 2 goblins to attack a target; 1 charger and 1 archer are both getting the same to-hits and the same damage. One scimitar + one short bow = one downed PC.

Naturally, some groups will have little trouble dealing with 4 goblins. Sending heavily armored PCs up first (especially the fighters who can heal themselves, and survive more than two hits) isnt exactly a terrible plan, especially if you suspect an ambush!

So while some groups will face roll their way through, I can easily see how others will struggle even on "average" luck.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ahtman wrote:
Unless the party really sets themselves up for it, like the cleric going off alone up front, using Ninja Gaiden tactics at level 1 is not very nice.

Probably not, no, but given previous discussions in this thread on hand-holding players I thought it a relevant discussion point. Goblins live by wits and ambushes; spreading damage around isn't really smart or effective as an ambush.

I have also never been much of a hand-holder in my games, which my players seem to appreciate, so obviously it will vary by group.

 streamdragon wrote:
And the goblins are still at a +3 differential on their stealth compared to the players. You were surprised that players didnt go first with their +1 initiative differential, it shouldnt be any surpise that the goblins would stay hidden.

Except that initiative isn't rolled. It is fixed. 5 rolls to see 4 different stealths is going to thave someone either roll really well or really poorly.

How the actual ambush unfolds will naturally vary from party to party; I wouldnt have my ambushers jump people who are still hiding in cover, for instance. Makes for a poor ambush!

Except the starter gives instructions for how the ambush is supposed to go down. If you change that, you can drastically increase the difficulty of the encounter.

And it wouldnt be hard (depending on PC placement, of course) for 2 goblins to attack a target; 1 charger and 1 archer are both getting the same to-hits and the same damage. One scimitar + one short bow = one downed PC.

No, and I would expect that. 4 though...

Naturally, some groups will have little trouble dealing with 4 goblins. Sending heavily armored PCs up first (especially the fighters who can heal themselves, and survive more than two hits) isnt exactly a terrible plan, especially if you suspect an ambush!

This is my point all along. His party had a mix of bad luck, poor dm rulings and bad strategy.

 streamdragon wrote:
I have also never been much of a hand-holder in my games, which my players seem to appreciate, so obviously it will vary by group.

There is a difference between not being a hand-holder and being out for blood, which is what Ninja Gaiden tactics refers to.

Yeah, I don't hold hands but I also don't make it my mission to kill the PCs.

 pretre wrote:
Except that initiative isn't rolled. It is fixed. 5 rolls to see 4 different stealths is going to thave someone either roll really well or really poorly.

Except the starter gives instructions for how the ambush is supposed to go down. If you change that, you can drastically increase the difficulty of the encounter.

No, and I would expect that. 4 though...

This is my point all along. His party had a mix of bad luck, poor dm rulings and bad strategy.

? I dont have the starter set on me, but the rules section for combat still includes a d20 roll for initiative. Is the starter set modifying this for the ambush? And again, with +3 over the players that's a 15% shift in favor of the goblins. No one seeing them isnt a huge stretch.

I am aware, loosely, of the ambush rundown. But as the rulebook cant obviously account for every single way the PCs will approach the situation I think pretending that it includes some sort of hard rigid prescribed flowchart is a little disingenuous.

As to dropping a player, I think we're using different definitions for 'focus fire'. Im not saying all 4 goblins should beat one player until it stops being funny, just that having 4 goblins all attack different targets seems off for an ambush. I was also pointing out the mathematics of dropping some of the softer characters. 2 hits is all it takes to drop the wizard, on average. With certain rolls, only 1 is needed.

Again, not saying it's a badly designed encounter or that it's unwinnable or anything. There just seemed to be so many responses surprised that people might struggle with that encounter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ahtman wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
I have also never been much of a hand-holder in my games, which my players seem to appreciate, so obviously it will vary by group.

There is a difference between not being a hand-holder and being out for blood, which is what Ninja Gaiden tactics refers to.

Being out for blood has nothing to do with it though. It's not like I hate my players or anything.

It's an ambush. An ambush set up by creatures that pretty much survive by ambush. I dont think running monsters according to their nature really constitutes 'being out for blood'.

I know our group struggled with the encounter, and we even saw half of the goblins after actively looking for them(so no passives). The cleric(myself) and the fighter almost got dropped. I would say it's the second hardest encounter in the first adventure.

I should probably note we were a party of three(no rogue).

 streamdragon wrote:
Being out for blood has nothing to do with it though. It's not like I hate my players or anything.

Which is nice, but I never said you did. Having two goblins attack a party member is fine, having all of them attack one because you know mechanically it will kill them is not. I wasn't criticizing you are the two on one reasoning.

 streamdragon wrote:
It's an ambush. An ambush set up by creatures that pretty much survive by ambush. I dont think running monsters according to their nature really constitutes 'being out for blood'.

Having all four ignore other threats to attack one target becuase you know it will bring it down in the game isn't a natural response for goblins. In case you misunderstood I will clarify: I wasn't saying you were doing this, just that it would be cruel to do so if someone were. You were never singled out as doing this, nor did I take issue with two goblins teaming up.

 streamdragon wrote:

? I dont have the starter set on me, but the rules section for combat still includes a d20 roll for initiative. Is the starter set modifying this for the ambush? And again, with +3 over the players that's a 15% shift in favor of the goblins. No one seeing them isnt a huge stretch.

Whoops! I misread initiative. That being said, the players still have an advantage there. And 5 perception checks vs 4 stealth checks (even with their bonus) is an advantage, even with the slight stealth advantage.

I am aware, loosely, of the ambush rundown. But as the rulebook cant obviously account for every single way the PCs will approach the situation I think pretending that it includes some sort of hard rigid prescribed flowchart is a little disingenuous.

I don't think it is at all. The starter says that if the players approach the horses they do X. Doing something different is significantly increasing the difficulty.

As to dropping a player, I think we're using different definitions for 'focus fire'. Im not saying all 4 goblins should beat one player until it stops being funny, just that having 4 goblins all attack different targets seems off for an ambush. I was also pointing out the mathematics of dropping some of the softer characters. 2 hits is all it takes to drop the wizard, on average. With certain rolls, only 1 is needed.

I don't disagree, but having all 4 able to attack one character is different when 2 have to charge.

Being out for blood has nothing to do with it though. It's not like I hate my players or anything.

It's an ambush. An ambush set up by creatures that pretty much survive by ambush. I dont think running monsters according to their nature really constitutes 'being out for blood'.

Except when you decide their nature is something different than the tactics outlined in the encounter.

Ahtman wrote:Which is nice, but I never said you did. Having two goblins attack a party member is fine, having all of them attack one because you know mechanically it will kill them is not. I wasn't criticizing you are the two on one reasoning.
Having all four ignore other threats to attack one target becuase you know it will bring it down in the game isn't a natural response for goblins. In case you misunderstood I will clarify: I wasn't saying you were doing this, just that it would be cruel to do so if someone were. You were never singled out as doing this, nor did I take issue with two goblins teaming up.

Ah, yeah. I agree that having 4 rush one person would be messed up, especially if you do it to outright kill them (i.e., not just drop/unconscious/0 hp them). It also wastes the ambush potential of the attackers.

pretre wrote:
Whoops! I misread initiative. That being said, the players still have an advantage there. And 5 perception checks vs 4 stealth checks (even with their bonus) is an advantage, even with the slight stealth advantage.

I don't think it is at all. The starter says that if the players approach the horses they do X. Doing something different is significantly increasing the difficulty.

I don't disagree, but having all 4 able to attack one character is different when 2 have to charge.

Except when you decide their nature is something different than the tactics outlined in the encounter.

The +3 to stealth is a bigger advantage than the +1 to initiative, imo, especially considering the surprise round it provides. It doesn't matter if your initiative roll is 10 better than mine if you don't get a turn at all that round.

As to how the ambush itself unfolds, like I said I don't have the starter set on me. But from your description, and the way you said your group did it, it really only brings up a couple variations of significance:

1. The players mostly hide in the cart, but send a few forward. This makes it more likely that those forward few would be focus fired*.
2. The players mostly get out of the cart and approach as a group. This pretty much goes back to what I imagined as the default scenario.

Neither scenario significantly changes the deadliness of the ambush. Nor does either one significantly change the tactics of the goblins. They're still going to lurk in trees until ambush time, 2 are still going to charge, and 2 are still going to shoot. I agree (and have previously agreed) that all 4 goblins focusing one target would be a bit more difficult since 2 are prescribed to be charging (and also agreed that 4 goblins bum rushing 1 player is messed up, unless that player is the only viable target). I just don't think it really goes against their nature or indeed changes the difficulty of the encounter significantly to suspect the goblins might set an ambush to actually, ya know, ambush. This isn't a computer game with prescripted events being triggered down a numbered code program.

10 PLAYERS APPROACH HORSE?(20:30)
20 WAIT GOTO 10
30 CHARGE ALL THE THINGS!

Really I haven't even been arguing (or at least, haven't been meaning to argue) about WHEN they ambush, so much about HOW they ambush. 1 scimitar attack + 1 shortbow attack, which is easily possible if someone is in range to be charged (like say a rogue sneaking along the tree line), is enough to drop several of the pregen characters. (And is indeed likely to do so with 8+ to hit and average damage from each attack reducing a character to <0 HP.)

* I think where we may be tripping up is my use of "focus fire". I wasn't suggesting that all 4 goblins should attack one target to the exclusion of all others. I was suggesting that, like players tend to do, attacking one target until it is down or significantly weakened is the "smartest" way to go about an ambush (or any fight really). It's a side effect of the HP system that being at 1 HP or 100 HP, you are still pretty much the same threat (i.e., your attack/damage capabilities don't weaken like they do with WoD's wound penalties).

No, I got you now. And really, my problem with Ninja's example is all four attacked their cleric. Killing him outright. Then the PCs hid in the woods rather than attacking. It was crazy.

edit: Realistic worst case scenario is this. Players approach the horses in a realistic party order and completely fail to see the goblins. Goblins get better initiative so go twice before players go, knocking down 1-2 players because they hit with every attack. Then it is 3 vs 4 and the goblins aren't long for the world.

And that's under the assumption that the Goblins make every check and the players fail every check. Yes, you'll have a tough adventure if you fail everything you try.

Meh, I've seen harder first encounters for my players. And even had no one die (though it did end up as a hilarious wizard vs wizard staff-whacking contest at the end, but even if the PC wizard lost, the fighter would have made their saving throw and gotten back in to the fight eventually...).

 Melissia wrote:
Meh, I've seen harder first encounters for my players. And even had no one die (though it did end up as a hilarious wizard vs wizard staff-whacking contest at the end, but even if the PC wizard lost, the fighter would have made their saving throw and gotten back in to the fight eventually...).

Yeah, if people think these 4 goblins are killer encounters, I would have been lynched and driven out of town after some of the stuff I've thrown at low level players.

 pretre wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Meh, I've seen harder first encounters for my players. And even had no one die (though it did end up as a hilarious wizard vs wizard staff-whacking contest at the end, but even if the PC wizard lost, the fighter would have made their saving throw and gotten back in to the fight eventually...).

Yeah, if people think these 4 goblins are killer encounters, I would have been lynched and driven out of town after some of the stuff I've thrown at low level players.

Yeah, you guys sound like a hoot to play with.

"Everyone ready to roll up their 7th party to try and beat this first encounter?"

"Umm, no. I think we're just gonna go play video games forever now."

I think their point is, the encounters in question are not really that hard if DMed properly.

I'm sure that compared to 4th edition level 1 characters, 5th edition is a big shock. But I much prefer that. It's great to have that progression from being in fear of your life in every encounter to becoming more grizzled and hardened, and eventually becoming confident in your abilities.
That's one of my favourite parts of dungeons and dragons.

Ambushes are always pretty nasty, and people can always get wiped out by lucky shots. This conversation is making me interested to try out the adventure in question to see how it would play with my group.