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So I've always loved the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard. They're just my three favorite Legions - I can't decide which one to make my chapter a successor of. Coincidentally, they're also the three most underdog chapters because of what happened at the Dropsite Massacre, which also explains why they have so few successor chapters in the first place.

What if, after the Heresy was over and the Codex Astartes was adopted, each now-Chapter, while significantly under strength compared to the other former Legions, still had too many Marines to adhere to the Codex? What if their "leftovers" were clumped together into a new chapter? Is that idea at all consistent with the fluff? I know that the Grey Knights were supposed to have been founded using the geneseed of the loyalist members of the traitor Legions, so it seems consistent. But it's my idea, so maybe I'm biased.

(edit: I know chapter stories go in Dakka Fiction, but this isn't their story, it's a question about the fluff validity of its elements)

Vulkan and Manus were good friends, and their legions got along well.
It's fine from a fluff perspective.

What about Corax?

 j31c3n wrote:
What about Corax?

Corax wasn't enemies with any of the loyalist primarchs. Corax was pretty reclusive.

And the basic premise of a chapter being made from several geneseed sources isn't ludicrous?

It kind of is because Space Marines get their geneseed from their marines. If you had multiple geneseeds going on and wished to maintain them you'd have to randomly choose which set of geneseed a new recruit will get. And then you'd have to deal with all the different mutations that each geneseed strain has at the same time. It seems like a large hassle really. I mean, you could say that the chapter honors each primarch equally and has aspects of each legion within it's own traditions but having multiple geneseeds at once seems needlessly complicated especially since they are largely the same.

My biggest concern is that the idea is too "special snowflake," honestly. The geneseed variety thing appealed to me because I like the idea of "multicultural" marines, instead of "space Vikings" or "space Mongols" or "space Romans" or the other Legions.

 j31c3n wrote:
And the basic premise of a chapter being made from several geneseed sources isn't ludicrous?

Well that is.
I thought the chapter would just have 3 different geneseed types to use as they see fit.

Nah. Space Marines are ridden with special snowflake syndrome from the get go. Just read the Primach v Cannoness thread.

Go for it, man.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
And the basic premise of a chapter being made from several geneseed sources isn't ludicrous?

Well that is.
I thought the chapter would just have 3 different geneseed types to use as they see fit.

That's what I meant. The chapter would have 3 different "stocks" of geneseed, basically. Spread "evenly" through each company.

How about each space marine that belongs to a primarch goes to a fitting squad. So assault marines are RG, Tech marines are IH, And marines that use flamers and the like are salamanders with the rest fitting with how each squad would work?

 TheCustomLime wrote:
It kind of is because Space Marines get their geneseed from their marines. If you had multiple geneseeds going on and wished to maintain them you'd have to randomly choose which set of geneseed a new recruit will get. And then you'd have to deal with all the different mutations that each geneseed strain has at the same time. It seems like a large hassle really. I mean, you could say that the chapter honors each primarch equally and has aspects of each legion within it's own traditions but having multiple geneseeds at once seems needlessly complicated especially since they are largely the same.

You can however have hybrid Astartes, the Iron Warriors proved that. As you said though, it'd just be resource intensive, especially with three chapters instead of two.

 j31c3n wrote:
So I've always loved the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard. They're just my three favorite Legions - I can't decide which one to make my chapter a successor of. Coincidentally, they're also the three most underdog chapters because of what happened at the Dropsite Massacre, which also explains why they have so few successor chapters in the first place.

What if, after the Heresy was over and the Codex Astartes was adopted, each now-Chapter, while significantly under strength compared to the other former Legions, still had too many Marines to adhere to the Codex? What if their "leftovers" were clumped together into a new chapter? Is that idea at all consistent with the fluff? I know that the Grey Knights were supposed to have been founded using the geneseed of the loyalist members of the traitor Legions, so it seems consistent. But it's my idea, so maybe I'm biased.

(edit: I know chapter stories go in Dakka Fiction, but this isn't their story, it's a question about the fluff validity of its elements)

Would 'leftovers' even have been possible? A legion would have either founded a new chapter or reassigned marines to different chapters to achieve a 'balance'.

And the Grey Knights were formed using some super-pristine stock of geneseed, perhaps even derived from the Emperor himself, I thought.

 Vaerros wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
So I've always loved the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard. They're just my three favorite Legions - I can't decide which one to make my chapter a successor of. Coincidentally, they're also the three most underdog chapters because of what happened at the Dropsite Massacre, which also explains why they have so few successor chapters in the first place.

What if, after the Heresy was over and the Codex Astartes was adopted, each now-Chapter, while significantly under strength compared to the other former Legions, still had too many Marines to adhere to the Codex? What if their "leftovers" were clumped together into a new chapter? Is that idea at all consistent with the fluff? I know that the Grey Knights were supposed to have been founded using the geneseed of the loyalist members of the traitor Legions, so it seems consistent. But it's my idea, so maybe I'm biased.

(edit: I know chapter stories go in Dakka Fiction, but this isn't their story, it's a question about the fluff validity of its elements)

Would 'leftovers' even have been possible? A legion would have either founded a new chapter or reassigned marines to different chapters to achieve a 'balance'.

And the Grey Knights were formed using some super-pristine stock of geneseed, perhaps even derived from the Emperor himself, I thought.

The founders of the Grey Knights/Inquisition included the most loyal Astartes. This included loyalist Luna Wolves and Death Guard.

Aren't there chapters with genetically mixed geneseed ?

Lucarikx

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Vaerros wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:
So I've always loved the Salamanders, Iron Hands, and Raven Guard. They're just my three favorite Legions - I can't decide which one to make my chapter a successor of. Coincidentally, they're also the three most underdog chapters because of what happened at the Dropsite Massacre, which also explains why they have so few successor chapters in the first place.

What if, after the Heresy was over and the Codex Astartes was adopted, each now-Chapter, while significantly under strength compared to the other former Legions, still had too many Marines to adhere to the Codex? What if their "leftovers" were clumped together into a new chapter? Is that idea at all consistent with the fluff? I know that the Grey Knights were supposed to have been founded using the geneseed of the loyalist members of the traitor Legions, so it seems consistent. But it's my idea, so maybe I'm biased.

(edit: I know chapter stories go in Dakka Fiction, but this isn't their story, it's a question about the fluff validity of its elements)

Would 'leftovers' even have been possible? A legion would have either founded a new chapter or reassigned marines to different chapters to achieve a 'balance'.

And the Grey Knights were formed using some super-pristine stock of geneseed, perhaps even derived from the Emperor himself, I thought.

The founders of the Grey Knights/Inquisition included the most loyal Astartes. This included loyalist Luna Wolves and Death Guard.

I'm aware of their involvement as founding members, but that's not a valid correction of my point about the geneseed.

geenseed mutations aside a chapter is more about brainwashing its members

Why not have 3/6/9 grand companies. Each one is in the image of its own primarch. Task forces are selected from squads from all 3 companies so they are working together as a chapter all the time? Deals with the mixed geneseed hassle.

The gene-seed combinations interest me.

For my homebrew Chapter I wanted "Space Viking Ravenguard".

I used the idea that a detachment from each happened to be the only forces close enough to react to a planet where either tyranids / chaos (not sure which yet ) exited the warp. Planet almost destroyed , population fought well , Terra decides to raise new chapter from planet etc etc.

My point is this , they used any geneseed Terra sent them , Ultra Marines whatever. But then the Chapter initiates were trained by instructors detached from Space Wolves and RavenGuard thus allowing the tactics of each Chapter to be learned and moulded into the individual marines , complementing the Geneseed.

I don't know if that fits the fluff , but it would seem an easier way of doing it than having separate traits for each company / squad etc .


Automatically Appended Next Post:

soupfly wrote:
geenseed mutations aside a chapter is more about brainwashing its members

Agreed !

 j31c3n wrote:
My biggest concern is that the idea is too "special snowflake," honestly.

Honestly, I'd ignore anyone who complains about "special snowflake" armies. You listen to those people too often and you lose any creativity that comes with building your own army. You end up with "Ultramarine Successor Chapter 234213, the Aqua Blue Marines".

Special Snowflake is such a crappy term, because the people who use it are using it interchangeably with Mary Sue. That is something you want to avoid, however. Overpowered, super awesome can't be killed or defeated ultra badasses are Mary Sues, not special snowflakes. As long as your premise is good, and you are having fun doing it, there's no reason you cannot make your army as unique as you'd like.

With regards to chapter heraldry and geneseeds, there is a precedent for you idea in fluff as well. The Blood Ravens do not know their ancestry, so rather than honor their progenitor Primarch, they honor the Unknown Primarchs.

With Geneseeds, I could have sworn that the cursed 21st Founding had at least one chapter that used spliced geneseed from multiple parent chapters. They went crazy from instabilities.

Isn't making 'your guys' into 'special snowflakes' the whole point of the hobby?
If you can make up a good fluff explanation, go ahead!

Well, originally I wanted my chapter to be good at governing like the Ultramarines (but not quite as good), kick back like the Space Wolves (but not quite as much), be mysterious and monkish like the Dark Angels (but not quite as much).... and so on, with a trait of basically each chapter. That's special snowflakey, there's no doubt about it. (I was in high school, forgive me, haha.) So that's why I was worried about mixing some of the traits of three very different chapters.

By "leftovers" I mean... let's say the Iron Hands Legion had (random numbers) 1500 marines, the Salamanders had 1200, and the Raven Guard had 1300, after the Istvaan Dropsite Massacre. Codex Astartes dictates that each chapter be "roughly" 1000 strong. None of those Legions had the spare manpower to create a full successor at that time, but they were still far over 1000. So the Iron Hands send 500 marines, the Salamanders send 200 marines, and the Raven Guard send 300 marines to form a new chapter of 1000.

Thanks for the responses, guys.

I think there IS a line you don't want to cross that leads to 'special snowflake' land, but when it comes to Space Marine chapters, it takes a while to get there. First you have to get further out than the outlying provinces of BloodAngelia, SpaceWolfistan, and BloodRavens City. Even then, there's still FireHawkia, BlackDragon Bay, and the Island of the Mantis Warriors between you and ridiculousness.

Personally, from a fluff perspective, I'd be wiling to swallow it more if the chapter was created not with an amalgam of the three geneseeds (not combined into one) but rather a hodge podge of all three (some marines stem from the Salamanders, some from the Raven Guard, etc) but no one knows who descends from what. It also fits better if no one really knows for sure. If, officially, no one is sure who the progenitor chapter is, and different outsiders believe it is each of the three candidate (some even think it's the Ultramarines!) then it would seem to fit the 40k setting a little more snugly, at least to me.

Actually, in that event, I might make up a squad of them myself, assumign I liked the color scheme and symbol!

Good luck with it!

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Isn't making 'your guys' into 'special snowflakes' the whole point of the hobby?
If you can make up a good fluff explanation, go ahead!

But I think that's the point. It's not a good fluff explanation. That's what is meant by 'special snowflake', when your chapter is the exception to multiple rules with little to no justification of why those rules don't apply to them.

For instance, in the opening post, what does having 'leftovers' mean? Just because the legions didn't perfectly come out to a multiple of 1,000 doesn't mean they would just mix them all together. The legions were constantly recruiting throughout the Horus Heresy so even if each of these three legions had 300 guys who hadn't been assigned to a chapter, you'd still have 3 chapters, each at 300 guys that would slowly grow into a 1,000. You wouldn't mix them together into one chapter of 900.

edit: I saw your post, while I was typing but my point still stands.

If you want an army made up of all three chapters, I'd make it a crusade fleet. And not a small one, a multiple century-long crusade, one long enough for the elements from the three chapters to bond. They're still representatives of their chapter (maybe a company from each), but after so many years of fighting this specific crusade, perhaps they mark themselves as veterans of of the crusade in the same way. An added stripe of color to their upper arms, for instance. Something where you could paint three different chapter's colors, but still identify them as fighting as one.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Isn't making 'your guys' into 'special snowflakes' the whole point of the hobby?
If you can make up a good fluff explanation, go ahead!

You're confusing the idea of "special snowflake". I came up with the term as it's used in 40K, so I'd know.

Special Snowflake means trying to give your army fluff some kind of unique attribute that makes them extra special, or extra good, or extra mysterious. Basically to make them better than the regular version, or to have them do things that the regular version can't do in the canon fluff, give them equipment or authority from other agencies, etc. There's nothing "wrong" with this, but it's different than just customizing your own fluff. Writing your own fluff for an army isn't special snowflake. Trying to make them extra special is. "My guys are secretly of World Eaters geneseed, and are close allies with the Mechanicum so they have lots of specially issued wargear, and some Fellblades despite being from the 13th Founding, and they stopped a Tyranid Hive Fleet once."


As far as the topic goes, it's pretty unlikely. When the Legions disbanded, they would have been broken up as close to 1,000 as possible. There wouldn't have been a "Leftovers" Chapter.

Further from that, remember that geneseed doesn't actually mean anything other than for the Blood Angels and the Space Wolves where they suffer side effects from it. For the other chapters, it's just a genetic legacy, and maybe a missing organ or two. The Mantis Warriors, for example, are descended from the White Scars, but have never been described as fighting anything like the White Scars with a preference for bikes or speeders. The rules in C:SM6E for the First Founding chapters were put there to quell a couple decades of crying by players who decided to choose one of the Chapters that weren't the Big Four (BA, DA, SW, UM). And the rules for successors were pasted in to forestall questions about what you should use if you play something else.

A "better" way, fluff-wise, would be to set your Chapter on a world where it recruits from a variety of different tribes with their own peculiar customs, which in turn seems to reflect on how the different companies operate, or such. Then you can have RavenGuard-ish Marines, and IronHands-ish Marines, etc, and not have to work out some convoluted back story that doesn't really mesh with the way the 40K universe works. That would be my suggestion. I mean, think about it. There are dozens of Chapters themed on cultures that come from this planet. So the idea that planets in the grim darkness of the far future are all culturally homogeneous is fairly silly. You can have a variety pack chapter without having to come up with some complicated explanation for it.

I was going to have the chapter be fleet-based and recruit war orphans from different planets they've fought on, to further accentuate the multicultural feel of the army.

Maybe the "leftovers" idea could be mere rumor, or maybe it could be the result of a clerical/shipping error... I really like the idea of a chapter born out of the Dropsite Massacre, so it's tough to just drop the idea completely.

 j31c3n wrote:
I was going to have the chapter be fleet-based and recruit war orphans from different planets they've fought on, to further accentuate the multicultural feel of the army.

Maybe the "leftovers" idea could be mere rumor, or maybe it could be the result of a clerical/shipping error... I really like the idea of a chapter born out of the Dropsite Massacre, so it's tough to just drop the idea completely.

I think the rumors idea might be your best bet to make it more palatable to others. Of course, you'd know the truth. I'd be down with that being the 'secret' truth behind the whispers, too. Let me know once you've got a color scheme/symbol for these cats, I'd like to see what they end up looking like!

Go with the idea the Chapter instructors were drawn from some of the Drop site massacre survivors ?

Initiates can come from anyplace you like.

It's not the most out-there idea, but being a second founding made out of three different geneseeds is a bit much. I'm more inclined to agree with jareddm's idea. Forces from three Chapters went off together to hunt down a dangerous enemy - legendary pirate, chaos raider or whatever. Once the quest was over they started recruiting locally, deciding to guard the spacelanes around some remote and unsafe area for the IoM rather than return home.