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 Dezstiny wrote:

,
*Oh and to note this is not to bag on you that how I play can beat you, more over it's just to state that flamer range is achievable as long as you know how to implement them into a list through connecting your units in a well strategist manner.

BTW I like your list. Not cheesy by any means but deffinitely tough if someone doesn't know how to deal with it

Thanks, I usually go for a slightly different route and don't use Fire Dragons or the Solotarch, but the general idea stays the same. And yes, I understood you and you're quite right. No list is unbeatable in 40k and skill is still very often a deciding factor between matches. I know my list well, so you need to know your list well to take me on. And vice versa.

Farseer Pef wrote:

May not be kosher to provide advice to the enemy of the OP, but I think you should have put SL + Shuriken Cannons on the Walkers. It would free your Farseer to support others while they provide their own re-rolling (Laser Lock). Sure you lose one shot and some range with Shuriken Cannons but you free the Farseer, gain Bladestorm, and you can always move, shoot, BF backwards to avoid Bolters. Would also free 15 points that you can spend on a Warp Spider Exarch. Just my two cents.

Well, I'm here as well, aren't I? Giving him advice against myself.

I find that the range on Scatterlasers are often a deciding factor in keeping them alive. They're too expensive to be used in a very aggresive way and contrary to what people believe about them, they're not one-trick ponies. My ponies survive 2 or even 3 turns of shooting, sometimes even surviving till the very end of the game. Without the range and flexibility of Scatterlasers, they'd quickly fall behind.

A mate of mine plays fluffy Eldar, and there is literally no way a Space Marine player can counter some of their ridiculous tanks without resorting to cheese of the highest order.

If some dude was rocking three of those fething Fire Prisms with their S10 pie plates and their endless rerolls and saves, I think I would just give up before the game started.

Sounds like a fun battle! Let us know how it turns out!

 Nivoglibina wrote:

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

One Wave Serpent kills 5 marines on average from the shield alone,

That',s odd, the shield avarages 4,5 shots... before to hit/wound/save...

Whoops, that calc is for Ork Boyz. For MEQ it's 3 dead on average. That's still devastating for a DT that hasn't fired any of its weapons, removing 52+ points of models per turn, possibly averaging higher, and they're spamming this unit.

Which illustrates the basic problems with marines. Even when the Ork player loses twice as many models, he's only losing half the amount of points.

 mattyrm wrote:
If some dude was rocking three of those fething Fire Prisms with their S10 pie plates and their endless rerolls and saves,

That...isn't a thing.

Prisms can fire a single S9 Ap1 shot, or lower strength templates.

Belly wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
If some dude was rocking three of those fething Fire Prisms with their S10 pie plates and their endless rerolls and saves,

That...isn't a thing.

Prisms can fire a single S9 Ap1 shot, or lower strength templates.

9, 10, its near as dammit.

The point is, the fething thing IDs multi wound models, ignores everythings armor, rerolls the scatter dice, and has crazy saves, every time I think I have penned it the guy gets to roll something else!

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

 Nivoglibina wrote:

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

One Wave Serpent kills 5 marines on average from the shield alone,

That',s odd, the shield avarages 4,5 shots... before to hit/wound/save...

Whoops, that calc is for Ork Boyz. For MEQ it's 3 dead on average. That's still devastating for a DT that hasn't fired any of its weapons, removing 52+ points of models per turn, possibly averaging higher, and they're spamming this unit.

Which illustrates the basic problems with marines. Even when the Ork player loses twice as many models, he's only losing half the amount of points.

Again....
4,5 twin linked shots
4 hits
3,34 wounds
1,11 dead marines.
Eldar is stong but there's no need for hyperbole.

I shouldn't have said shield only since if you're TLing it that means you've already fired the scatter lasers and likely killed some MEQ.

Well you started out claiming it killed 5 on avarage, next post it became 3, and now in one sentence it turns from between 3 and 2, to more than one.
If I keep on posting the shield might get to generate marines instead of killing them

Even if it generated marines that wouldn't help because the Eldar player would just opt not to fire.

Quick question, why was the scatter laser rending?

It wasn't.

 Araenion wrote:
It wasn't.

That's what I thought
must say though I wouldn't mind that

 mattyrm wrote:

Belly wrote:

 mattyrm wrote:
If some dude was rocking three of those fething Fire Prisms with their S10 pie plates and their endless rerolls and saves,

That...isn't a thing.

Prisms can fire a single S9 Ap1 shot, or lower strength templates.

9, 10, its near as dammit.

The point is, the fething thing IDs multi wound models, ignores everythings armor, rerolls the scatter dice, and has crazy saves, every time I think I have penned it the guy gets to roll something else!

A little concerned for you, as it sounds like your friend is in error (or cheating). Fire Prisms can fire a Large Blast at Str5/Ap3 (doesn't ignore cover). Can't ID anything with that. They can only re-roll scatter if a Farseer cast Guide/Prescience on them (and only ONE of them gets it). Additionally, the Fire Prism has at best a 4+ cover save if it has Holo-fields and moved at least 1" last turn (higher cover if terrain provides). Fire Prisms are good, but I worry that you are being cheated. Hopefully, you are just exaggerating.

 Nivoglibina wrote:

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

One Wave Serpent kills 5 marines on average from the shield alone,

That',s odd, the shield avarages 4,5 shots... before to hit/wound/save...

That's not accurate. And it doesn't need to be. Wave Serpents, even wiping out the true value of 3.5 marines a turn, is still scarily effective. The primary problem is that marines can't get them off the board without doing crazy shenanigans that cause the death rate to go higher. Like DSing.

Maybe he just has bad luck?

Also for marines to beat eldar you need to follow this:

1) go first with drop pod list

2) roll well with drop pod list

3) hope he rolls bad against your drop pod list

There you have it 40k in a bag.

To hell with it, just make MASSIVE STEEHL REHN, something like this: Tyberos in LR redeemer with honourguard with chapterbanner and relic blades
20 sternguard veterans with combi meltas and plasmas, other have meltas and gravs, put them in a drop and combat squad them
10 tacs with melta, in a drop(just for the purpose of dropping 20 sternguards turn 1), LotD, with multimelta and melta, red brethren in DS, assault marines to whack their faces in and for fire support 2x 5 devastators with 4 flakk missile launchers, my 2.5k list in a nutshell. What could possibly go wrong? riiiiiight....
EDIT: This was a joke, nothing can go wrong, except everything, it was just an idea for 'serious' list

 mattyrm wrote:
Fire Prisms can fire a Large Blast at Str5/Ap3 (doesn't ignore cover). Can't ID anything with that.

it can ID my grots, they're t2

And yep it can shoot either s5 ap3 large blast, s7 ap2 blast or s9 ap1 lance. It's an awesome tank that cost so low and has awesome firepower and is hard to kill. Basically like lotsa eldar stuff is

So, right now we all agree: if you don't have a decent alpha strike as space marine vs eldar, YOU'RE F***ED!
Also, focus down warwalkers, and wave serpents/fire Prisms

On Wave Serpents:

Negative. The sky is not falling. I play both marines and eldar, and I can say that marines have access to two very awesome flyers that effect how an Eldar army plays. The Stormtalon and Stormraven are great vehicle destroyers. The Stormraven in particular can destroy two vehicles in one turn of shooting with POTMS with just a little bit of proper positioning.

The fact that the flyers have to start in reserve is just icing on the cake for marine players. A smart Eldar player won't drop the Serpent shield and shoot it until after the flyers come on (unless they go first), because ravens and talons WILL crush wave serpents without shields. The thing that's devastating about the Wave Serpent is the scatter laser's ability to twin-link the Serpent Shield. If it's just shooting a scatter laser and MAYBE a shuriken cannon (if it has range) it's not troublesome at all. Ignore it and kill other things or glance it to death.

The common answer is "Yeah but holofields!". yes, holofields are awesome, but still only negate 50% of damage results unless the player goes flat out (in which case they're not damaging anything). AV12 ain't great and neither is 50% odds of survival.

There, I'll get off my soapbox now.

Those flyers are not "awesome". Ravens are actually mostly useless against Wave Serpents. Besides, the raven is quite overcosted. If the Stormtalon can not get to the rear arc of the Wave Serpent, they can't do anything either as you are praying for rending. I'm not sure what game you're playing, but it's not the same as the one I am evidently.

Martel732 wrote:
Those flyers are not "awesome". Ravens are actually mostly useless against Wave Serpents. Besides, the raven is quite overcosted. If the Stormtalon can not get to the rear arc of the Wave Serpent, they can't do anything either as you are praying for rending. I'm not sure what game you're playing, but it's not the same as the one I am evidently.

I think I'm playing the same game as Homeskillet. My first match against a talon it flew 36" behind my WS 1st turn and popped it in the rear with its assault cannon turret. Almost every game since then it has remained a major menace for my WSs; whether I keep rear to the board or not. If you do, you still getting shot with 4 str 6 rending shots and 3 str 8 and most of these seem to be twin-linked - that will glance down a serpent in a turn or two. Ravens are expensive, yes, but for the price you get a flier that is practically immune to pens from most of the AA in my list and it puts the hurt on anything wraith in a major way. Trying to take it down with a WS is futile, bc you'll spend your shield trying to even have a chance for a pen, and it you dont get it, oh look, tl las, 2 str 8 missiles, and a str 8 melta right in your grill... Not to mention that until all the fliers are gone, you basically have to keep rear on board edge; otherwise it will just fly past you, drop into hover and shoot you from behind the next turn, if it really wants you dead.

You don't worry about penning Stormravens. You HP them out or ignore them.

With 36" guns, you can can move Eldar tanks to spots where the Stormtalon can't move on the board and do that to you.

The missiles on the Stormraven are not twinlinked. Only the two weapons. And using 500+ points of flyers to glance down a Wave serpent in a turn or TWO is incredibly inefficient. And I shoot down Stormravens all the time with lowly BA. 12 AV 3 HP is just not that tough.

Four Wave serpents can clear all the stormtalons in a turn or two because of twin linked serpents shields. Don't forget prescienced warp spiders against Stormtalons as well. They just aren't that good against an army with so much S6.

And the seer council just laughs at it all. Fliers are not the solution vs Eldar.

Use one of these:



You'll be happy you did.

Martel732 wrote:
You don't worry about penning Stormravens. You HP them out or ignore them.

With 36" guns, you can can move Eldar tanks to spots where the Stormtalon can't move on the board and do that to you.

The missiles on the Stormraven are not twinlinked. Only the two weapons. And using 500+ points of flyers to glance down a Wave serpent in a turn or TWO is incredibly inefficient. And I shoot down Stormravens all the time with lowly BA. 12 AV 3 HP is just not that tough.

Four Wave serpents can clear all the stormtalons in a turn or two because of twin linked serpents shields. Don't forget prescienced warp spiders against Stormtalons as well. They just aren't that good against an army with so much S6.

And the seer council just laughs at it all. Fliers are not the solution vs Eldar.

I'd say you're way oversimplifying things - both counting on that serpent shield to make the WS only go down to glances, and counting on it being shot to knock the fliers down with ease. It's one or the other, not both. You're welcome to sit on the back edge of the board with all of you troop transports while the rest of the game takes place. Remember, the only gun on the WS that's got better range than 36", is the serpent shield, which, again, is an either or, and isn't TL if you don't tag someone with the SL first. Points wise the talon and WS are about even and, in a vacuum, neither is going to get the upper hand on the other without over-exposing themselves.

OP was having trouble with WWs. Use a TFC from behind LOS blocking terrain - they'll go down no problem. As for the wraithknight, that is the perfect target for a stormraven.

The stormraven really doesn't have the dakka to bring down a wraithknight.

Serpents don't really need the shield against the weak weapons on a Stormtalon. And if the marines have all that air cav, then what don't they have?

Martel732 wrote:
The stormraven really doesn't have the dakka to bring down a wraithknight.

Serpents don't really need the shield against the weak weapons on a Stormtalon. And if the marines have all that air cav, then what don't they have?

Lascannon, two S8 missiles, and a multi-melta won't put the hurt on a Wraithknight? I'm thinking one salvo from the Stormraven with some backup on the ground can do some damage.

As to Stormtalons and Wave Serpents, you're just wrong. Anybody using the talons for optimum damage takes Skyhammer Missiles. Talons are BS5 against ground targets due to strafing run. You have 4 twin-linked assault cannon shots and 4 S7 missiles, all at BS5. All shooting AV12 if the serpent is backed up, or hitting it in the rear for AV10. You'd be silly not to take that into consideration as an Eldar player.

Martel732 wrote:
The stormraven really doesn't have the dakka to bring down a wraithknight.

Serpents don't really need the shield against the weak weapons on a Stormtalon. And if the marines have all that air cav, then what don't they have?

This is a continuing over-simplification of WS. They are very good, but they will be glanced out. Treating the WK like it is invincible is the quickest way to have it killed.

 Homeskillet wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The stormraven really doesn't have the dakka to bring down a wraithknight.

Serpents don't really need the shield against the weak weapons on a Stormtalon. And if the marines have all that air cav, then what don't they have?

Lascannon, two S8 missiles, and a multi-melta won't put the hurt on a Wraithknight? I'm thinking one salvo from the Stormraven with some backup on the ground can do some damage.

As to Stormtalons and Wave Serpents, you're just wrong. Anybody using the talons for optimum damage takes Skyhammer Missiles. Talons are BS5 against ground targets due to strafing run. You have 4 twin-linked assault cannon shots and 4 S7 missiles, all at BS5. All shooting AV12 if the serpent is backed up, or hitting it in the rear for AV10. You'd be silly not to take that into consideration as an Eldar player.

I didn't say not to take into consideration. But they are expensive. Skyhammer missiles only fire 3 times. Stormtalons are basically useless against Wave Serpents if they can't get on the rear armor. Remember you only need to last a few turn to scrub every marine off the board with your firepower.

Most players seem to put the AC on the Stormraven, not the lascannon. All the other weapons need a 4+ to wound the wraithknight. That's less than 1.5 wounds on average. 200+ pts for less than 1.5 wounds?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The stormraven really doesn't have the dakka to bring down a wraithknight.

Serpents don't really need the shield against the weak weapons on a Stormtalon. And if the marines have all that air cav, then what don't they have?

This is a continuing over-simplification of WS. They are very good, but they will be glanced out. Treating the WK like it is invincible is the quickest way to have it killed.

No, it's how WS work. They take so much effort to glance out that by the time the marine player does it, you have crippled his army. Marines are very easy for the Eldar to cripple.

Eldar lists are mean. Yes. And their codex buffed them a lot. Still, MEQ lists have all it takes to win against eldar.

In general - model count is your friend. For 1500 points any marine player can get at least 50 models. That is a lot and eldar don't have enough firepower to kill a larg army in 6 turns.


That said - there are few builds that can help You:
- drop pod list - just use a lot of combat squads. One squad opens the transport , the other kills what is inside. Dont try to explode a Waveserpent. Just glan it to death. For wraith and walker lists - shoot all the way. Three squads of Devastators with ML is all you need. You can add a Divination psyker for prescience or perfect timing. Remember that all eldar relay on is cover save. You can hide Your devs behind Void Shield if You have the points. With drop pod remember not to stretch your army to much on the table.

- deep strike list - pretty much the same as drop pods

- gunline - lots of shooting infantry and tanks (razorback spam) . Remember that most eldar units have limited range so take advantage of it.

In general - massed body count and a lot of firepower is all You need.