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Then why can I beat the marines and not the Eldar/ Tau?

Martel732 wrote:
Then why can I beat the marines and not the Eldar/ Tau?

Only you can answer this, but there's more in play than just the army. The players will be of varying skill, and while this could be said of any army, it is likely that the most skilled players and those who are interested in being as competitive as possible will gravitate towards the powerlists, leaving the more casual, less skilled, or both, with SM and other armies. Of course, this is just speculation, but it seems obvious that those playing competitively and are more interested in winning will use the powerbuilds, while players that are playing for other reasons (fluff, narrative ect) are perhaps more likely to use other armies. This is, I know, a generalisation, but it may be a factor.

I've taken on the "power builds" for marines. They just don't kill nearly as quickly or thoroughly as Eldar or Daemons. They also don't have the 2++ rerollable scheme. Servo skulls have taken a bit of the bite out of the White Scars. I remain unconvinced that the new marine book is really that good. I guess we'll know for sure what the score is going to be if the new Nids are better than Space Marines. That will make 4/4 Xeno books better than every meq book.

Let me ask you this. Has this marine player did any better or worse against other players/armies?

I've beaten multiple marine players. Some were bike heavy, another was air cav. The marine units just aren't as polished and killy as Xenos now. Even the new marines have too many overcosted units and upgrades and it opens the door for a list like BA.

 Illumini wrote:
Not really. Allies are an important part of the game, and marines have very many battlebrothers that can fill whatever weakness your list has.

In a thread talking about tactical marines, saying that space marines are good because they can take allies with better units to cover for them sucking doesn't make them good. It makes the allies good.

I love reading how easily these threads get derailed... Any ways. I love the Tactical squad. The trick to them is that I expect them to die. So I tend to throw them into the fight as if they were guard. But of course that tactic is not always appropriate and they will end up hiding...until they die...lol

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

 Illumini wrote:
Not really. Allies are an important part of the game, and marines have very many battlebrothers that can fill whatever weakness your list has.

In a thread talking about tactical marines, saying that space marines are good because they can take allies with better units to cover for them sucking doesn't make them good. It makes the allies good.

I did give input on tactical marines in earlier posts, saying that they do generally suck. I also offered a few scenarios where they might not suck, in a DA bolterbanner army, RG rhino-spam and as cheap drop pod units.

Just because marines can use some unit from their allies to build better lists does not mean that the ally army is better, if that is what you are saying. A runepriest is a great way to make match-ups against necrons, seer council and screamerstar much better. Rune priests are better in a space marine army than in a space wolf army, as space marines have a better codex to build the rest of the list from. Same with coteaz, who has more cool stuff to buff, the dreadknight, who likes himself much better in an army with long range firepower where he can counter-attack etc.

Marines may not be able to make spam-win lists like eldar or tau, but they have many very good units (mainly in fast/heavy slots), including one of the best troops in the game. Marines are also the best at killing MC`s in the game, which is fairly important at the moment, and with GMC`s is just getting more important.

"Marines may not be able to make spam-win lists like eldar or tau, but they have many very good units (mainly in fast/heavy slots), including one of the best troops in the game. Marines are also the best at killing MC`s in the game, which is fairly important at the moment, and with GMC`s is just getting more important.
"

Please enumerate these "very good units". Especially in the heavy slot. There's the TFC and what else? Grav cents? I guess.

What makes marines the best at killing MCs? Grav? I think the DE and IG are both still better at killing MCs. IG are better vs the fliers in particular.

All GW need to do to address balance is make the next armies to come out wipe the floor with Necrons, Tau and Eldar but really struggle against Marines.

Then at least it will be a rock paper scissor game...

No idea how they would go about this though...

Martel732 wrote:
"Marines may not be able to make spam-win lists like eldar or tau, but they have many very good units (mainly in fast/heavy slots), including one of the best troops in the game. Marines are also the best at killing MC`s in the game, which is fairly important at the moment, and with GMC`s is just getting more important.
"

Please enumerate these "very good units". Especially in the heavy slot. There's the TFC and what else? Grav cents? I guess.

What makes marines the best at killing MCs? Grav? I think the DE and IG are both still better at killing MCs. IG are better vs the fliers in particular.

In fast good units is: land speeders, stormtalons, bikes (as troops) and attack bikes
In heavy : centurions, TFC, storm raven

Grav cannons on bikes and cents makes SM one of the best MC killers. Shure DE have their poisen, but the MC get their armour save.
Storm raven and storm talons are fine against flying MC.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
All GW need to do to address balance is make the next armies to come out wipe the floor with Necrons, Tau and Eldar but really struggle against Marines.

Then at least it will be a rock paper scissor game...

No idea how they would go about this though...

This!

I cannot believe I made it through 71 posts and there was only one measly mention of MARNEUS CALGAR; and it was basically in a throwaway comment. How about this at 1850?:

Calgar

Tactical Marines x10: Meltagun- 150
Tactical Marines x10: Meltagun- 150
Tactical Marines x10: Meltagun- 150
Tactical Marines x10: Meltagun- 150
Tactical Marines x10: Meltagun- 150
Tactical Marines x10: Meltagun- 150

Assault Marines x5: Flamers x2, Meltabombs, Drop Pod- 100
Assault Marines x5: Flamers x2, Meltabombs, Drop Pod- 100
Assault Marines x5: Flamers x2, Meltabombs, Drop Pod- 100

Devastators x10: Lascannons x4- 220
Stalker
Stalker

Total: 1845

This list has all the tools. I heard a lot of moaning and groaning about giving up first blood. BUT, if we're talking about being competitive then we're talking about tournaments. And most tournaments de-emphasize First Blood if not outright remove it.

That aside, what's funny about this list is, a lot of opponents are going to set their army up across from you and think, "Look at this noob, tactical marines, assault marines, devastators? Lulz" Then 3 turns later when there's still 40 marines on the board and 4 objectives in your hands they'll be thinking, "I can't win this game."

You can have 12-16 scoring units on the table (Big Guns/Scouring). Most tournament missions (Or regular ones for that matter) are objective based. Flood the objectives, ignore the Deathstars and you've got a shot. Calgar maximizes your tactical doctrines and drops in with the Assault marines to be a D behind enemy lines.

Of course, it isn't top tier. But you WILL out-meta people and can play spoiler. I also wouldn't put a bracket win out of the question for something like this. Remember too that the next few armies will be Nids, IG and Orks. Don't you think this stacks up decently? A few people mentioned practice. This is imperative. Marines may be the poster "starter army" but it takes a true expert to win competitive games with them consistently. It can be done though, ask Ben Mohlie.

Tyfus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Marines may not be able to make spam-win lists like eldar or tau, but they have many very good units (mainly in fast/heavy slots), including one of the best troops in the game. Marines are also the best at killing MC`s in the game, which is fairly important at the moment, and with GMC`s is just getting more important.
"

Please enumerate these "very good units". Especially in the heavy slot. There's the TFC and what else? Grav cents? I guess.

What makes marines the best at killing MCs? Grav? I think the DE and IG are both still better at killing MCs. IG are better vs the fliers in particular.

In fast good units is: land speeders, stormtalons, bikes (as troops) and attack bikes
In heavy : centurions, TFC, storm raven

Grav cannons on bikes and cents makes SM one of the best MC killers. Shure DE have their poisen, but the MC get their armour save.
Storm raven and storm talons are fine against flying MC.

Land speeders are not good in 6th edition. C:SM attack bikes have also taken a price *increase*, so it's hard to say they are "very good".

This leaves us with the Stormtalon which is adequate, not "very good", as it costs almost or as much as a Vendetta and is completely inferior, (yes, the Vendetta is the measuring stick NOT fliers no one uses), and bikes, which ARE very good, but it can be difficult to concentrate fire from many 18" guns.

For heavy, the TFC is excellent, and centurions are good, but I wouldn't say "very good", as they are much more mortal than the new super units for the other 6th ed lists. The Stormraven can in no way be considered "very good". Arguably it's not even good. Merely average. If that. It pays for a lot of war gear that is simply a waste. The Stormraven is again, incredibly overcosted compared to its competition, the Vendetta.

I think your post prove MY point more than your own. Look at how many units in those slots didn't make your. The marines have a ton of junk units, including their troops slots.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Shrike wrote:
I cannot believe I made it through 71 posts and there was only one measly mention of MARNEUS CALGAR; and it was basically in a throwaway comment. How about this at 1850?:

Calgar

Tactical Marines x10: Meltagun- 150
Tactical Marines x10: Meltagun- 150
Tactical Marines x10: Meltagun- 150
Tactical Marines x10: Meltagun- 150
Tactical Marines x10: Meltagun- 150
Tactical Marines x10: Meltagun- 150

Assault Marines x5: Flamers x2, Meltabombs, Drop Pod- 100
Assault Marines x5: Flamers x2, Meltabombs, Drop Pod- 100
Assault Marines x5: Flamers x2, Meltabombs, Drop Pod- 100

Devastators x10: Lascannons x4- 220
Stalker
Stalker

Total: 1845

This list has all the tools. I heard a lot of moaning and groaning about giving up first blood. BUT, if we're talking about being competitive then we're talking about tournaments. And most tournaments de-emphasize First Blood if not outright remove it.

That aside, what's funny about this list is, a lot of opponents are going to set their army up across from you and think, "Look at this noob, tactical marines, assault marines, devastators? Lulz" Then 3 turns later when there's still 40 marines on the board and 4 objectives in your hands they'll be thinking, "I can't win this game."

You can have 12-16 scoring units on the table (Big Guns/Scouring). Most tournament missions (Or regular ones for that matter) are objective based. Flood the objectives, ignore the Deathstars and you've got a shot. Calgar maximizes your tactical doctrines and drops in with the Assault marines to be a D behind enemy lines.

Of course, it isn't top tier. But you WILL out-meta people and can play spoiler. I also wouldn't put a bracket win out of the question for something like this. Remember too that the next few armies will be Nids, IG and Orks. Don't you think this stacks up decently? A few people mentioned practice. This is imperative. Marines may be the poster "starter army" but it takes a true expert to win competitive games with them consistently. It can be done though, ask Ben Mohlie.

This list will not have 40 marines left 3 turns in against a good list. 5 man marine squads can be focused down by enemy *troops*. This list just forces your opponent to play exterminator, since it surrenders all intiative, doesn't participate in the shooting phase to any meaningful degree, and just tries to live. No list can survive 5 turns against an opponent's untouched list. Everything in this list is on foot == shooting gallery.

How to make a tactical squad awesome:

1. Clan Raukaan supplement

2. Master of the Forge warlord choice, to unlock three techmarines

3. ----v

5x tactical marines w/ plasmagun
techmarine w/ servo harness & combi-plasma
sergeant w/ combi-plasma
razorback w/ twin-linked assault cannon & dozer blade
255 pts

Martel732 wrote:

Tyfus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"

This list will not have 40 marines left 3 turns in against a good list. 5 man marine squads can be focused down by enemy *troops*. This list just forces your opponent to play exterminator, since it surrenders all intiative, doesn't participate in the shooting phase to any meaningful degree, and just tries to live. No list can survive 5 turns against an opponent's untouched list. Everything in this list is on foot == shooting gallery.

What do you play in a desert with no dunes? Most tournaments (I'm talking big ones, NOVA, BAO, Daboyz, 11th Co.) have plenty of LOS blocking terrain. You can hide plenty of combat squads in these environments. My ceiling for this list was a bracket win while anti-meta-ing people. The OP wants to know if you can spam tactical marines effectively. This is one way. You can also pod spam with Tiggy and UM or Vulkan and salliies. I'm sure Ben Mohlie could still make Rhino spam work.

So your recommend marine strat is to pray for LOS blocking terrain and hide? But there are no balance problems with C:SM vs Xenos. None at all.

I didn't say that. Eldar, Daemons and Tau, in that order are all more powerful books (Eldar by a long shot) than SM.

But the OP asked a question, and I answered it; apparently to your dissatisfaction. I don't want to get into an internet pissing contest. Bike spam is not the only competitive marine army. You can do a GravCent Deathstar with Tiggy. You can Drop Pod spam with Tiggy+UM or Vulkan+Sallies.

After that, you're in more "Can I anti-meta these people?" type lists. This is where tac spam, raider spam and IH Ironclad spam fall.

Anyway, instead of disparaging my version of tactical spam for the OP, why not post your own list for the theme?

I'm not saying that it won't win. Potentially win quite a bit against non-optimized lists. But it's incredibly lame. Marines should not be reduced to Orks.

I don't have any lists that use more than two squad of five tac marines anymore. I don't have much to contribute in that way. I try very hard not to use terrible units.

I still don't think tac spam has a good chance against lists with high damage output played by a player who knows what they are looking at.

Raider spam and IH ironclad spam would be a lot more entertaining but for Daemon FMC circus.

Actually, I think I can see where Tac spam can work: Drop pods. Drop pods allow you to position your marines in a way that's optimal, it disrupts the enemy gunline and it gets devastating weaponry into the close range it needs. Plus you can drop pod in TFC and Dreadnaughts.

If only you could take squads of 20 marines. Ah, well...

Where's the devastating weaponry on tacticals? TFCs can't fire the turn they arrive. That's a fail.

Dropping ineffectual units into enemy double tap range doesn't seem that much better to me.

Flamers, Meltaguns, Plasma Guns and their Boltguns. Boltguns at that range will make someone have a very bad day. Not to mention the Plasma Cannons, Missile Launchers and Multi-meltas that they can field too. Then there is Sternguard with their funderful weaponry.

TFCs do not necessarily need to fire turn one. Just hide them while the rest of your army does it job.

Why drop pod something that could be hidden on turn 1 and firing from turn 1?

Boltguns won't do a thing to troops in Wave Serpents or FMC. That's the *entire problem with tactical squads*. Xeno lists can be engineered to make them basically useless.

Oh yes, you can shoot up those bubble wrapping Kroot all day you until the Tau fire back.

And missile launchers are terrible in 6th.

Why would anyone shoot their boltguns at the wave serpents? I can sort of see your point but your guys have other weapons too. Like meltaguns.

Fair enough on the thunderfire cannons but you could use them to blow the kroot away. I played Tau yesterday and a single Manticore shot made mincemeat of them. They have crap LD too.

As for FMCs... hit em with the bolters, ground them and use your plasmas.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Why would anyone shoot their boltguns at the wave serpents? I can sort of see your point but your guys have other weapons too. Like meltaguns.

Fair enough on the thunderfire cannons but you could use them to blow the kroot away. I played Tau yesterday and a single Manticore shot made mincemeat of them. They have crap LD too.

As for FMCs... hit em with the bolters, ground them and use your plasmas.

I wish that worked against FMCs consistently enough to be good. Tactical squads don't pack enough special weapons to threaten wave serpents. Or even IG mech. Also, realize the more drop pods you use, the more you are fragmenting your forces. My crappy ass BA have beaten several lists because they fragmented their own forces with the terrible reserve rules.

Hmm, that is true. I normally just ignore wave serpents but you really cant with foot marines. I suppose the solution then is to assault them. This would be tricky since they cant assault out of deep strike. Perhaps assault marines with jump packs?

As for FMC, Id say the solution is plasma or maybe grav.

Ah, now you are seeing my problem with marines in 6th edition. The way the CRB is written, it is very, very hard to avoid the withering firepower advantage of the Xenos. And the other wacky advantages of the Daemons. The basic 14 pt marine trooper just can't get enough done before he is assaulted or shot to death. This is generalized across many, many games. There will be specific games everything goes your way, of course. But marines need a lot more to go their way than Eldar.

Tac marines are entirely sub-par compared to the alternatives capable of being fielded by other armies. Not, necessarily, due to their own statlines. Simply because Xenos codices have been given too many ways to pad the weaknesses of their bog-standard troops.

Tau Fire Warriors have poor BS, averages saves, and a low-end Leadership. Markerlights, cheap cost, and Ethereals solve all three problems. But then, most people take Kroot because they're DIRT cheap, and bubble wrap all the other wonderful guns they have (vehicles protected by improved cover saves, MCs, multi-wound high-save models) and the entire force is safeguarded by the bubble-wrap and shared overwatch.

Eldar Guardians have GEQ armor, short-range guns, and low-end Leadership. Easily offset by hiding them in the Battle-tank esque Wave Serpent, Farseers, Warlocks, Avatars, and the hilariously effective damage output of their guns. Again, tack on their useful toys - psychic powers for days (that aren't BRB-grade mediocrity), extreme maneuverability on top of decent armor, almost every gun having a special rule that lifts it above its alternative-codex kin, and again - vehicles protected by improved cover saves, and large multi-wound models.

Marine vehicles have ONE better AV on the front, which doesn't matter because of lance weapons or high-STR spam. Their cover is dependent on terrain, which is ignored by Tau and mitigated by dice-spam of Eldar. Their troops are average rather than elite, but costed at elite, because of the toys they get. Unfortunately, tac marine toys split their purpose while Eldar and Tau toys focus it. Frag Grenades to make assault possible - but why would you with your 1A, I4, AP- models? Krak grenades for vehicle assaults - which would be lovely if you could catch the skimmers, or get near the Chimeras without being blown back by three plasmaguns, multi-lasers, heavy bolters, autocannons, etc. You could also throw them at MCs! But if you've assaulted an MC, or been assaulted by one, you're dead anyway. Pistols to allow for assaults, previously covered as a bad idea. Boltguns boast the same or lower strength than most other weapons with no special goodness to make them worthwhile, and the ability to put heavy weapons in the squads makes an already weakly-mobile troop choice less effective on the move. The Rhino is even a pitiful excuse for a box to move them along the battlefield with, boasting lower AV, lower mobility, lower save potential, and nearly-nonexistent firepower compared to other codices. Albeit for less cost, but not nearly as low as it needs to be.

Granted, Marines have their toys. Grav, TFC, and pods namely. Which are ok. Grav is spectacular in its niche, TFCs do EXACTLY what they're supposed to, and do it well. Pods are something nobody else can do - I just wish they could deliver more than Sternguard, Ironclads, and Vanguard. Sternguard will shoot down a troublesome unit to pieces when they land, Grav-pistol toting Vanguard will put an MC down in a turn (although this is more because of grav than the pod, but pods help), and Ironclads will ruin an unprepared gunline's day (although most ARE prepared, because it's hard not to be with the toys they've been given).

Marines are weak because the others are strong, not the other way around. Doesn't make them any less weak though.

"Marines are weak because the others are strong, not the other way around. Doesn't make them any less weak though."

This. Everything is relative.

I think you could make Rhinos free and tac marines would still stink.

I don't understand how people think tacs are good. We have much better troop choices in bikes and scouts in lss. Tacs are over costed for very little return.