Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Just wondering about supporting fire and flamers. I played against tau and got flamed by a unit that was 5 inches behind the unit being assualted. He roll it as wall of death and we moved on. I get thats how it written. No big deal. It just sounds broken.

He was correct - Wall of Death doesn't have a range and doesn't worry about intervening units.

rigeld2 wrote:
He was correct - Wall of Death doesn't have a range and doesn't worry about intervening units.

The wall of death dos'nt have a range, but it still counts as firing the template weapon. You still have to place the template over as many models in the target unit as you can with out placing it over one of your own models (not counting the firing model). While you would normally generate a number of hits based on the number of enemy models you placed the template over the wall of death rules generate those hits differently. What that ultimately means is you place the little end of template over the firing model and the large end of the template over or pointed at the charging unit, then rotate the template around the firing model until it no longer covers any of your models except for the firing model. If you can do that, regardless of the number of enemy models you are covering, you score 'wall of death hits' but if you can't then the template weapon cannot be fired in this over watch.

Sounds like the tou player in the OP was in the right, but we'd have to know more about the board to be sure.

 DJGietzen wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
He was correct - Wall of Death doesn't have a range and doesn't worry about intervening units.

The wall of death dos'nt have a range, but it still counts as firing the template weapon. You still have to place the template over as many models in the target unit as you can with out placing it over one of your own models (not counting the firing model). While you would normally generate a number of hits based on the number of enemy models you placed the template over the wall of death rules generate those hits differently. What that ultimately means is you place the little end of template over the firing model and the large end of the template over or pointed at the charging unit, then rotate the template around the firing model until it no longer covers any of your models except for the firing model. If you can do that, regardless of the number of enemy models you are covering, you score 'wall of death hits' but if you can't then the template weapon cannot be fired in this over watch.

Sounds like the tou player in the OP was in the right, but we'd have to know more about the board to be sure.

Eh? The template isn't used at all during Wall of Death. It isn't placed.

Wall of death does not place the template; you just roll the number of hits

That is not how the wall of death is ruled though. Does it mention a template whatsoever?

What about an enemy charging you from 11"? They are out of the "template" range are they not?

 DJGietzen wrote:


The wall of death dos'nt have a range, but it still counts as firing the template weapon. You still have to place the template over as many models in the target unit as you can with out placing it over one of your own models (not counting the firing model). While you would normally generate a number of hits based on the number of enemy models you placed the template over the wall of death rules generate those hits differently. What that ultimately means is you place the little end of template over the firing model and the large end of the template over or pointed at the charging unit, then rotate the template around the firing model until it no longer covers any of your models except for the firing model. If you can do that, regardless of the number of enemy models you are covering, you score 'wall of death hits' but if you can't then the template weapon cannot be fired in this over watch.

What? WoD says nothing of the sort. What it does say is "d3 automatic hits" and "don't worry about comparing the length of the template with the distance to the enemy."

It's an odd mechanic when combined with supporting fire, but there are a lot of odd mechanics in the game.

Although i DO agree it should have a min range or if you are not the unit being charged (hitting your pals?) but that is digressing and not relevant here

Personally, I think it works fine without needing to place the template. The units are charging you, after all, so one presumes they're going to move within range during the attack. That being said, I can't give an objective opinion, since I play Salamanders.

 DJGietzen wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
He was correct - Wall of Death doesn't have a range and doesn't worry about intervening units.

The wall of death dos'nt have a range, but it still counts as firing the template weapon. You still have to place the template over as many models in the target unit as you can with out placing it over one of your own models (not counting the firing model).

Citation requires. I think you'll find that there is no such rule.

If you can do that, regardless of the number of enemy models you are covering, you score 'wall of death hits' but if you can't then the template weapon cannot be fired in this over watch.

Nope. That's not how Wall of Death works. You should re-read page 52. Among other rules you have "Don't worry about comparing the length of the template with the distance to the enemy."

 DJGietzen wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
He was correct - Wall of Death doesn't have a range and doesn't worry about intervening units.

The wall of death dos'nt have a range, but it still counts as firing the template weapon. You still have to place the template over as many models in the target unit as you can with out placing it over one of your own models (not counting the firing model). While you would normally generate a number of hits based on the number of enemy models you placed the template over the wall of death rules generate those hits differently. What that ultimately means is you place the little end of template over the firing model and the large end of the template over or pointed at the charging unit, then rotate the template around the firing model until it no longer covers any of your models except for the firing model. If you can do that, regardless of the number of enemy models you are covering, you score 'wall of death hits' but if you can't then the template weapon cannot be fired in this over watch.

Sounds like the tou player in the OP was in the right, but we'd have to know more about the board to be sure.

"Instead of rolling To Hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the firing model"
Placing the template is done as a replacement of the To Hit roll.

"Instead ,if a Template weapons fires overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit..."
Wall of Death does not roll To-Hit so the replacement does not occur either. No template for WoD.

It says to place the template when you fire a template weapon. It says that a template weapon may fire over-watch. It does not say to not place the template it merely tells the number of hits the template will generate regardless of its placement. You are told to generate these hits you do not need to compare the length of the template to the distance to the enemy. This line implies the template is still being placed as you are being told to ignore only part of the template placement rules.

 DJGietzen wrote:
It says to place the template when you fire a template weapon. It says that a template weapon may fire over-watch. It does not say to not place the template it merely tells the number of hits the template will generate regardless of its placement. You are told to generate these hits you do not need to compare the length of the template to the distance to the enemy. This line implies the template is still being placed as you are being told to ignore only part of the template placement rules.

So whats the point of placing the template then?

to make sure you can place it at all with out hitting another one of your own models. If your flamer guy is in the middle of his unit he wouldn't be able to fire over-watch.

 DJGietzen wrote:
to make sure you can place it at all with out hitting another one of your own models. If your flamer guy is in the middle of his unit he wouldn't be able to fire over-watch.

Convoluted; I've also never thought this nor seen anyone play like this.

But it has some potential merit. Anyone wanna argue against it?

My best response would be that the instruction, "Don't worry about comparing the length of the template with the distance to the enemy," pretty clearly means you don't place the template. But it doesn't actually say exactly that, and Gietzen has already got around this: the WoD rules let you ignore the ENEMY in placing the template, but not FRIENDLY models....

So as long as you can place the template anywhere where it doesn't hit friendly models the supporting WoD will work since you have no way to place it on the enemies who are 9+" away, you still get the hits because that's what the rule says you do.

ignoring the sentence that says when it fires overwatch it inflicts D3 auto hits instead....the instead is instead of placing the template....you don't place the template to fire overwatch with teardrop template weapons.

 DJGietzen wrote:
It says to place the template when you fire a template weapon. It says that a template weapon may fire over-watch. It does not say to not place the template it merely tells the number of hits the template will generate regardless of its placement. You are told to generate these hits you do not need to compare the length of the template to the distance to the enemy. This line implies the template is still being placed as you are being told to ignore only part of the template placement rules.

The most specific rules state "instead", meaning "instead of placing the template, as you normally would instead of rolling to hit"

 DJGietzen wrote:
It says to place the template when you fire a template weapon. It says that a template weapon may fire over-watch. It does not say to not place the template it merely tells the number of hits the template will generate regardless of its placement. You are told to generate these hits you do not need to compare the length of the template to the distance to the enemy. This line implies the template is still being placed as you are being told to ignore only part of the template placement rules.

Why is the template normally placed? Is it to determine how many hits are generated? Why are you determining number of hits twice?
And no, that sentence doesn't imply the template is still being placed - normal Overwatch cares about range. That sentence tells you WoD doesn't.

nutty_nutter wrote:ignoring the sentence that says when it fires overwatch it inflicts D3 auto hits instead....the instead is instead of placing the template....you don't place the template to fire overwatch with teardrop template weapons.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The most specific rules state "instead", meaning "instead of placing the template, as you normally would instead of rolling to hit"

Instead of firing snap shots, it inflicts wounds automatically. This does not mean not to place the template, nor does it mean instead of placing the template.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DJGietzen wrote:
It says to place the template when you fire a template weapon. It says that a template weapon may fire over-watch. It does not say to not place the template it merely tells the number of hits the template will generate regardless of its placement. You are told to generate these hits you do not need to compare the length of the template to the distance to the enemy. This line implies the template is still being placed as you are being told to ignore only part of the template placement rules.

Why is the template normally placed? Is it to determine how many hits are generated? Why are you determining number of hits twice?
And no, that sentence doesn't imply the template is still being placed - normal Overwatch cares about range. That sentence tells you WoD doesn't.

The template is placed to determine the greatest number of enemy models in the target unit that can be placed under the template with out placing the template over any of your own models. You normally determine the number of hits based on that figure but instead determine the number of hits from a die roll. While the template placement is no longer part of the hit generation process it still serves a function and you have not been given permission to not do it. You do not need to ignore the length of the template if you are not in fact placing the template.

To what end?
You cover 8 models with the template, you still only hit D3
You cover 0 models with the template, you still only hit D3
The unit is out of range of the template, you still only hit D3
Friendly models are in the way, guess what?

You still only hit D3

Incorrect. You're given the entire process for firing the Wall of Death. None of it includes placing the template as you've asserted.

DJ - no, it is instead of rolling to hit as a snap fire, d3 hits are scored. Nothing more

Please avoid making up rules out of whole cloth

nosferatu1001 wrote:
DJ - no, it is instead of rolling to hit as a snap fire, d3 hits are scored. Nothing more

Please avoid making up rules out of whole cloth

You are given instruction on how to fire a template weapon. You are also given instruction on how to fire snap shots. Pg 52 only tells us what to do instead of firing snap shots. I don't see anything there that tells us we don't follow the rest of the rules for firing a template weapon and its not like the rest of the rules would ever have any impact.

I'm not making anything up, I am simply stating that we don't have permission to skip a rather important step.

We are given all the rules needed for Wall of Death under its heading. Why are you inserting rules that are not there?

It's simple, for every template weapon in the unit Overwatching it causes an automatic D3 hits. Full stop. I see nothing about placing a template in the rules below...

“Template weapons can fire Overwatch, even though they cannot fire Snap Shots. Instead, if a Template weapons fires Overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value. Don’t worry about comparing the length of the template with the distance to the enemy. If the charge is successful, it doesn’t matter anyway. If the charge failed, we can assume that the enemy ran into range of the Template weapon and were driven”

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.” v2. Games Workshop, 2013. iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

What is 'Wall of Death'? Where is it in the BRB?

Page 52, BRB. I quoted the rules for it above.

you dont place the template, but making that a house rule seems fair if everyone agrees.

Eihnlazer wrote:
you dont place the template, but making that a house rule seems fair if everyone agrees.

to what end exactly? the template is meaningless in the terms of firing overwatch, its also breaking the overwatch restrictions in that templates cannot be used to fire overwatch. teardrop template weapons have a special rule attached to them that allows them to cause D3 automatic hits instead of placing the template.

 nutty_nutter wrote:

Eihnlazer wrote:
you dont place the template, but making that a house rule seems fair if everyone agrees.

to what end exactly?

My rules seem strange and are house ruled. A flamer hitting a unit 20" away does not make sense to alot of people considering its range is only 8". If that group of people wants to play it that way, that is fine.