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Hey guys,

I'm thinking of getting a beastmen army but there are only so many models that I actually like (to look at).

I'm starting with a HQ and then I'll start to fill the ranks.

Which HQ would you suggest if I like these guys?
Gor
Bestigors
Minotaurs
And all the hounds and similar.

Expect some negative reviews here. While not completely fair to the army, they are unpopular, under-represented and have some pretty glaring weaknesses. A review from an actual Beastmen player:

- There are still some excellent deals in the army. Gor are a very reasonable baseline to build on, Bestigor are here to eat face and take names, and Razorgor are some of the best chaff-level units in the game. Melee efficiency is definitely a strength of the army, especially because it combines so well with...
- Excellent magic. Truly great, fistfuls of power dice with 3 of the best Lores going and wonderful synergy with your armies specialties.

- Very poor internal balance. The entire rare-section is a write-off. None of the monsters are very good, nor are the characters (Slugtongue is possibly excepted but then goes the other way into gimmicky, arbitrary kills based on luck)
- Ambush doesn't work. Minotaurs don't work. None of the monsters work.
- No ranged ability
- No ability to react to fliers
- Very limited ability to defeat high-armour units that don't fancy charging your Bestigor
- Completely rogered by flyers with good armour. See Daemon Princes.

The army suffers very badly from 'One-list syndrome' in that all competitive armies look the same and possess some very significant weaknesses. However there are still strengths to the army and if you simply want good melee brutality, it has a lot to offer.

Of your list:
Gor = good. Take a unit of 40.
Bestigor = great. Take another unit, 30-40
Minotaur = avoid. Overpriced, extremely fragile and generally inferior to equivalent points of Bestigor. Note that this does not apply to the characters which are excellent
Hounds = avoid. They would be good, except they may as well be Special since they don't count towards Core %.

I'd suggest a cabal of 2-4 Shaman as your fundamental HQ 'block', which should be present in near enough every game you play with the Beasts.

And a bsb, convert one from the besting or block. Beasts of chaos need their reroll

I second the need for a BSB. Also, always remember to take your Primal Fury test before you take Fear checks just in case you get Frenzied XD The basic build for a Wargor BSB is heavy armor, shield, and Gnarled Hide with the Manbane (I think that's the right one; it gives +1 strength to the unit) Banner, which comes out to 206 points. It's pretty easy to convert this guy out of a Battalion box.

Unlike some people, I don't think you should write Minos off entirely. A Minotaur bus with a handful of Doombull/gorebull characters is one of the scariest things in the game, and is one of the two main (read viable) strategies available in what is a rather limited book. (the other is a handful of wizards scattered around a herdstone shard on either beasts or shadow; I prefer shadow)

Hounds are good chaff, but the Razorgors are MUCH MUCH better. I suggest you convert those out of Orc Boar Boyz and just use some greenstuff to bulk them out and make them more chaosy...it looks much better than the pumbagor.

Beast banner is the one your referring too

I'd disagree about the rare choices.
Ghorgons are super beat sticks. 7 S6 attacks, and gaining more as you win combat is awesome.
Yes, they are cannon bait; but that's true of any monster.

I've just started beasts and I'm running triple ghorgons; Two on the table, and a 3rd that gets summoned via Savage Dominion.

With dirt cheap dogs, razorgors and scouting harpies, you just have to hit cannons early; I also bring the Chalice of Dark Rain (-1 to hit with BS based shooting, none BS based shoting only fires on a 4+).

I'm running a beast lord, a wargor BSB, a level 4 shaman, a level 2 shaman, 2 blocks of gors, 3 chariots, 3 units of scouting harpies, 2 units of 1 razorgor, 3 minotaur, and 2 ghorgons.

So far, it's been working.

On paper, a ghorgon is too expensive, and too prone to cannons. But, factor in an item that cripples an enemy shooting phase, and some of the best warmachine hunters in the game (scouting harpies), you don't have to worry about cannons too much. If you've got terrain to hide for one turn, you can pretty much take out cannons and then come out into the open. You can make up lost ground with the extra movement from a single beastial surge.

Some of the stuff is decent, and just underrated. Viletide, doing 5D6 S1 hits at 24" is pretty good. People think back to 7th edition where you couldn't wound much with it. But with 8th editions always wound on a 6, it's pretty good. It also eliminates pesky units like chameleon skinks or skaven gutter runners.

Anyhow, expect a fair bit of "Net-hate" on beastmen, and expect a lot of people to tell you "The Only Way" to run beastmen. The fact is, it's a pretty flexible army with several decent build options. The fact that the army is underrepresented really will help you out. Most people have no idea what the lore of the wild even is.

-Matt

Matt,

I agree that the Ghorgon is certainly the best of the rare section. They're also the least overcosted (probably only about 20-30 points over rather than 50). The biggest problem I see with your answer of just taking out their cannons is that the vast majority of cannons I see are Ironblasters or Skull cannons. Those eat the crap out of our warmachine hunters.

An ambushing unit of gors might be able to take one of them on, but beastman ambush is...hmm, what's the word? Terrible..;yeah, that's it.

Now, that's just what I see. If most of the cannons you face are Empire or Dwarves, harpies are all you need.

I agree that lore of the Wild is underrated, but I still feel like Shadow does more overall for the phase we care the most about (combat). Viletide with Hagtree Fetish is probably one of the most underestimated things in the game.

@Ceann Fine:

Thanks, my books currently 3000 miles away...

I don't see a lot of skull cannons; more nurgle than khorne. Something about LD7 and a roll of 8 on winds of magic seem to keep khorne more limited.

As for Ironblasters, if you can get a flank charge, you've got a good chance at winning. Without the rhinox fighting, the ogre and single gnoblar will struggle to do 3 wounds (2 wounds is a tie). Even if you don't win, just holding for a single turn is good enough, that means he doesn't shoot on his turn.

My advice from experience is take several big units of Gor with 2HW, BSB is essential as well as the highest Ld general you can get, keep those central to your line as you're going to need any help you can get with Ld tests, especially for Primal Fury.
I always take the Beast Banner, a horde of Gor hitting on S4 with 2HW is not to be sniffed at. If you overwhelm the enemy with enough big units of Gor you should be able to grind them down. The problem is survivability on the way in (bugger all in the way of armour) and low Ld across the board.

Doombulls can be quite decent, but Minotaurs are really quite overpriced, that said a friend of mine frequently runs a Doombull in a unit of 9 Mino's - massive point sink but it goes straight through every unit it charges.
People recommend Bestigor a lot but I've found the great weapons to slow them down, and also they tend to get targeted early on by opponents who are keen to keep their high T and/or high armour troops alive.

Found if you use your magic in a canny way you can keep most of the army alive/buffed long enough to make a difference, so keep your Shamans safe. Panic tests are one of your biggest worries, so I usually grab a unit of Harpies to deal with Warmachines - template weapons (especially the Flame Cannon) are first target, then cannons, because having a character sniped or a horde shot in the flank will ruin your day.

Oh, and always use Additional Hand Weapons over shields for your Gors.

Flying Doombull or Gorebull can solve your warmachine problems as well!

But with dogs, razorgors, and harpies you hardly need more chaff on the table.

Beastmen are a subpar army book, period. And despite the possibilities available in the book and the love some people have for them it is just a bottom line.

That being said, I love Beastmen and can't wait for them to get a re-write *holds breath* that would improve their monsters and general rules

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I don't see a lot of skull cannons; more nurgle than khorne. Something about LD7 and a roll of 8 on winds of magic seem to keep khorne more limited.

Even Nurgle lists tend to run one or two Khannons because they're just so good for their points.

The likelihood of getting that roll and then having it actually affect one of only two Khorne units in an army is so low as to be ignored. There's only a 5/36 chance of getting The Dark Prince Thirsts on the ROC table, then you have to roll a 6 to affect the Khorne unit, assuming it's not in combat (which the Khannon does pretty well). The odds put it at once every twenty magic phases or so that one of the Khannons would have to make the Ld test, assuming you're running two Khannons. If you're only running one, it is unlikely that you'd have to make such a Ld test during the entirety of a 5 game tournament.

And, for right now, anywhere using ETC Comp should be loving their beastmen.

300 free points, 60 cap size on Gors and -100 point cost on all monsters from the rare section!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
*Monsters period, my mistake.

@Thunderfrog: I so wish that our local group would do an ETC tournament. I'd absolutely run a Monster-Mash style Beastmen army with two Gorgons and two Giants for 600 total points.

Alrighty, so what's the best HQ in your opinions?

For straight killiness, there aren't a lot of things that beat the Doombull. If I remember off the top of my head, you can make a Doombull with a 1+ Armor Save that has 8-10 Attacks per round with a high WS and S. Or, you could go with fewer attacks (like 7) and take the ASF sword to get re-rolls. And with their special Frenzy rules, every time they win a round of combat, they get an extra attack, cumulative, until they lose Frenzy.

Their casters are actually pretty good as a General, too, with the Lord lvl Wizard being T5 and having access to Death, Shadow and Beasts.

Plus Ram of the Whatever is amazing once you get that 1+ armor save.

I think that's the Ramhorn Helmet? It actually gives +1 Armor, and every successful armor save gives the wearer a free attack, if I remember correctly.

My personal favorites are these 3:

1: Beastlord, The Brass Cleaver, AoD, The Other Trickster's Shard, Dragonbane Gem. (Coming in at a cheap 248, this lord provides you with great Ld of 9, 10 with the banner. Anywhere between 5 and 7 attacks at great I at should always be at str 6 (beast banner). If you run a beast shaman this lord can be as good as a blender lord with 8-10 attacks at str 9 with Savage Beast of Horros. Most people do not realize how killy our lords can be. They take precautions with the Doom Bull but not this guy until its to late).

2: Doom Bull. HA, Shield, Sword of Swift Slaying, Ramhorn Helm, Dawnstone, Healing Potion (like to keep Gnarled Hide on BSB) at 353 this lord choice's problem in my opinion is that it cuts into the points needed for a solid Lv4. But as a killing machine his power is undeniable.

3: Great Bray Shaman, Lv4, Lore of Beasts, Talisman of Preservation, Fencers Blades, Channeling Staff, Ironcurse Icon ( when i dont have enough points for double Lords I use him as a general, otherwise he is still just my Lv4 caster).

A lot of people bash the survivability of Beastmen when getting across the field, but the army all around with the exception of ungor's is T4. That's better than most other T3 armies rocking light or even heavy armor.

Let's say 20 BS4 arrows fire from over half range at a unit of Gors. 3.33 models will die. Comparatively, 20 shots at the same range fire at a unit of men or elves in heavy armor, and 3.33 are going to die. That toughness 4 is the built in armor save, and outside of Ogres, WoC, or Saurus, not many core units can boast a T4, especially when you consider that T4 comes at a significantly reduced cost compared to the units I just mentioned.

Do Beastmen have flaws? Sure. But if you can keep your important units near your BSB bubble, you are going to wreck shop. I myself have just been starting Beastmen and have played in 2-3 tournaments with them locally. I have never placed lower than 4th in at least 20 army fields, and you would be surprised by how caught off guard my opponents are to how much punch these guys pack. Fast, amazing chaff, often have hatred, and are T4. It's also amazing what ambushing a couple 33 point units of ungor raiders does to an opponents flow and plans.

Thanks for the advice guys.

Think I'll get a beastlord/doombull depending on what my GW has.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
I'd disagree about the rare choices.
Ghorgons are super beat sticks. 7 S6 attacks, and gaining more as you win combat is awesome.
Yes, they are cannon bait; but that's true of any monster.

I've just started beasts and I'm running triple ghorgons; Two on the table, and a 3rd that gets summoned via Savage Dominion.

With dirt cheap dogs, razorgors and scouting harpies, you just have to hit cannons early; I also bring the Chalice of Dark Rain (-1 to hit with BS based shooting, none BS based shoting only fires on a 4+).

I'm running a beast lord, a wargor BSB, a level 4 shaman, a level 2 shaman, 2 blocks of gors, 3 chariots, 3 units of scouting harpies, 2 units of 1 razorgor, 3 minotaur, and 2 ghorgons.

So far, it's been working.

On paper, a ghorgon is too expensive, and too prone to cannons. But, factor in an item that cripples an enemy shooting phase, and some of the best warmachine hunters in the game (scouting harpies), you don't have to worry about cannons too much. If you've got terrain to hide for one turn, you can pretty much take out cannons and then come out into the open. You can make up lost ground with the extra movement from a single beastial surge.

Some of the stuff is decent, and just underrated. Viletide, doing 5D6 S1 hits at 24" is pretty good. People think back to 7th edition where you couldn't wound much with it. But with 8th editions always wound on a 6, it's pretty good. It also eliminates pesky units like chameleon skinks or skaven gutter runners.

Anyhow, expect a fair bit of "Net-hate" on beastmen, and expect a lot of people to tell you "The Only Way" to run beastmen. The fact is, it's a pretty flexible army with several decent build options. The fact that the army is underrepresented really will help you out. Most people have no idea what the lore of the wild even is.

-Matt

I'm curious. Do you run Lore of the Wild on the level 4, level 2 or both? I agree Viletide is an under rated spell, and Savage Dominion isn't terrible, but most of the rest of the lore is meh at best or overshadowed by Beasts.

Anyway, a few thoughts as a "my second army is Beastmen" player.

1. Beastmen are definitely not really a top tier army, but despite that they are still very fun to play.

2. LD is your friend, but also your enemy. Non mino-bus beastmen are very LD dependant, but their base LD is only average at best. LD boosting characters and a BSB are absolutely essential for besti/gor builds because getting Hatred every combat is kind of awesome.

3. Beastmen ambush is kind of bad. Some tournaments sub out the BRB ambush rules for beastmen ambush, but in regular play ambushing stuff can be a risk. Sometimes that risk pays off, however, when things DO pop up where and when you need them.

4. Mino-bus can be fun. Dual short busses is a build I've used to pretty great effectiveness. Basically:

Doombull beatstick (heavy armor, shield, ramhorn helm, sword of swift-slaying-or-striking, dawnstone, gnarled hide)
5 minos with great weapons, full command, bloodkine has gamblers armor

Gorbull mini-beatstick BSB (ironcurse icon, armor of silvered steel, great weapon)
5 minos with great weapons, full command, bloodkine has blackened plate

So you have 2 small buses of minotaurs, pumping out a crazy amount of S7 attacks. In CC the enemy is forced to direct attacks at either the character, the unit, or the unit champ so wounds get spread around a bit. The carnage they inflict grows each turn they win combat, and they will usually win against even the most dedicated CC units. Only issue is running units down, but that's what chaff charges are for...

5. Chaff. Get it, learn it, love it. Single Razorgor units are insanely effective for their low cost. Ungor raiders are decent redirectors as well, and core to boot.

Anyway, as most people say about WHFB, the army tiers are much closer than in 40K, so even a "bottom tier" army like Beastmen can and will do well. It will just be a slightly more uphill battle than something skaven or lolzardmen.

I run both with lore of the wild.
Spells I like:
Viletide: 5D6 hits that wound anything on a 6 does wonders against high toughness opponents.
Devolve: Situational. It can put a couple of wounds on several units. Things like Chimeras that get caught outside of the generals range are in trouble.
Bray Scream: S3 template, no save. Pretty good, but again, situational. You can shift the shaman into a small skirmishing unit and try and get him around the flanks.
Traitor Kin: Simply awesome. A unit of 4 mournfangs takes 16 hits, that wound on 3+, and they save on only 6+. On average, that should kill ~3 of the 4 mournfangs. SkullCrushers survive a little better, with a unit of 3 "only" taking 4 wounds.
Mantle of Ghorok: + D6 strength and D6 attacks. How is that not totally awesome? Sure, you'll take a wound if either is a 6 (which is 31% of the time) but if you buy a ward save, or cast it on a gorbull/doombull who've got spare wounds, you're good.
Savage Dominion: Free Monster, that walks on from behind the enemy. Awesome.

I'm really happy to get Mantle and Savage every game. Bray Scream and Traitor Kin can be good, but are situational. Viletide is decent, and Devolve is very situational, but good against MSU opponents.

It's enough great spells, and enough very good but situational spells that I don't mind it being my whole magic phase.
I like beast magic, but beast magic doesn't have the answer for monstrous cav, and Transformation isn't nearly as good as Savage Dominion.

-Matt

 streamdragon wrote:
lolzardmen.

Whoa! Uncalled for man... (in best whining hippie voice).


But hwat they said about beast men is true they are a combat army that you have to be smart with but they can be beaten.