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*** By working - I mean doing a good job promoting the hobby any better than anything else ***

I've never ever seen a Games Workshop store in person, only have seen pics of one in White Dwarf and online, and I've seen comments here and there of certain ones going out of business, while it seems every so often I see an ad for a new store opening up somewhere. I was wondering, are these stores generally successful? I ask that because over the years, if I were to open some kind of business, I would never open a comic book shop, hobby store, nor gaming store. I've noticed that one of these kinds of businesses might enjoy some major success at some point, they all seem to go out of business or be sold off at some point, which leaves me to believe that while someone with a passion for these is justified in trying to open a business doing what they love, but they dont seem like great investments. And to be honest, the least a store has to offer the less I am interested.

So if I go to a hobby/gaming store, I hope to see a variety of games and miniatures, especially with stuff I am not already into to get that exposure. With GW specific stores, being that they only carry GW products, I can see everything they have online. Even if there was one in my area, I doubt I would go out of my way to go to one if there was another place I could by models or modeling supplies. I know GW is trying to make their hobby more accessible, but never have been in one, I am wondering how much more effective they are then lets say, a hobby store that has gaming tables...

Guess I should add I live in the US, and the number of stores in the UK must be far greater there, and I am not sure if they have general hobby/gaming centers like we do here...

They did a great job in the UK in the past when they had more staff, and table space for gaming a gaming store on most high streets made war gaming synonymous with GW

(so well in fact that they killed off a large part of the independent gaming stores, and while other systems tried to challenge them all of them failed)

however now the stores tend to be smaller, have fewer staff (1 person is not uncommon) and less in store gaming (demos only in a fair number of them) I suspect they're working less well

But I'm no longer the target demographic for them so it's hard to tell for certain

My local GW works quite well, they have set games nights (thursdays from 4-8) and can book in games throughout the weeks in hourly slots if they arent already booked. Its a one man store but the guy running it does well at doing so. Only a limited number of tables (One dark vengeance, one hobbit, one 40K, one WFB) but they do monthly painting comps and are running a tale of store gamers atm to get more people involved.

GW find it better to close the store and take the loss any time the 1 man operating it is away, including the two days before christmas in many places this year, rather than hire people who would cover for them.

They have also been known to shut down stores before their lease is up.

Neither of those are things a store does if it is 'successful' in the traditional sense.

In a less traditional sense however they have, in the past, done a good job of introducing people to the 'games workshop hobby' and keeping them in that section of the hobby, fenced off in their ignorance from every other model company out there. However these days with the lack real in store gaming in most places there is very little keeping people coming to their stores to buy stuff other than the internet, and the internet contains information about other miniature companies that can be dangerous to the idea of GW's little 'we are the hobby' line.

Once upon a time these stores grew the community and worked quite well, but due to some frankly puzzling business decisions there is little or no reason they still exist other than an unwillingness for the people at GW HQ to actually suggest scrapping them.

KTG17 wrote:
*** By working - I mean doing a good job promoting the hobby any better than anything else ***

I've never ever seen a Games Workshop store in person, only have seen pics of one in White Dwarf and online, and I've seen comments here and there of certain ones going out of business, while it seems every so often I see an ad for a new store opening up somewhere. I was wondering, are these stores generally successful? I ask that because over the years, if I were to open some kind of business, I would never open a comic book shop, hobby store, nor gaming store. I've noticed that one of these kinds of businesses might enjoy some major success at some point, they all seem to go out of business or be sold off at some point, which leaves me to believe that while someone with a passion for these is justified in trying to open a business doing what they love, but they dont seem like great investments. And to be honest, the least a store has to offer the less I am interested.

So if I go to a hobby/gaming store, I hope to see a variety of games and miniatures, especially with stuff I am not already into to get that exposure. With GW specific stores, being that they only carry GW products, I can see everything they have online. Even if there was one in my area, I doubt I would go out of my way to go to one if there was another place I could by models or modeling supplies. I know GW is trying to make their hobby more accessible, but never have been in one, I am wondering how much more effective they are then lets say, a hobby store that has gaming tables...

Guess I should add I live in the US, and the number of stores in the UK must be far greater there, and I am not sure if they have general hobby/gaming centers like we do here...

They work, but it is WORK. It isn't just about GW, the deal is about the shops in general. You can either sell shoes, or dresses, or comic books. The point being it is about working, not just thinking that you want to sell games because it is a hobby that you have.

The Internet, mail order sales, dropping sales of games of this nature in general, based on the increased price, comics, cards, board games, rpgs.... etc.etc...

THEN theres the middle men/ distributors that are taking a larger and larger cut of a profit to be made, plus they being the only game in town on keeping you stocked..... it is a job, not just about "I'm going to open my own hobby store and feth off the day playing rpgs, and board games, while I read my comics."

THOSE are the ones that open, take a huge dump, then lose thier fourth point of contact because they do not know what they are doing.


If you are savy at business, you have a good eye for your market, and can generate a sale in a product that you want to make money with, you don't even need to just roll with games, its about getting someone in, getting them interested in what you want to sell, and getting some cash for the effort... and keep them coming back.

If your so inclined, go to a Hobby Lobby nearby your area, then go to a GW store, then go to any local hobby/ comic shop, and you will see how the real deal is.

Theres a great documentery on the death of the local record store on Crackle. The same mentality is in play with the local game store.

http://www.crackle.com/c/i-need-that-record



Theres plenty of stores out there that are succesful, though they are few and far between.

GW's stores aren't any of them, they fold if they don't make the cut. GW makes it a point to make that happen.


Once again, if you change out the "Record" for "games", theres a very similar thing going on there.

Oh, by the way, Go to a GW store, just to say you went there, you won't be sorry.

I'm not sure how they can be anymore.

They have taken so much of their line out of their own stores (and of course away from all the rest of that run game stores), that you can't actually buy some armies. Try playing Bretonnians with just knights of the real, or dwarves with just miners, warriors, and cannons. If it isn't plastic, it's gone or leaving. And a lot of the plastics go away. Minotaurs? High Elf Archers? Kroot? Whirlwind? Dire Wolves?Dwarf Thunderers?Empire Outriders?

FLGS are desperately trying to replace lost GW sales with other games and miniature lines. A GW store manager doesn't have that option.

I have no clue what the company thinks it is doing.

I can't say that the High Elf Archers going direct only is a bad thing. Those models are hideous.

Why they do not make the Lothern Sea Guard frames(which are currently available for direct sales) into an actual boxed set for the shops is beyond me.

I was also thinking how it probably doesnt help GW that they really only have 3 games going on. I mean, if I had to choose between walking into a store that had 40k, Fantasy, and LOTR, versus another that had (selecting from what I consider GW's Golden Age) 40k, Fantasy, Necromuna, Warhammer Quest, Epic Space Marine, and whatever else, I think I would find the wider selection a lot more interesting. Even though there are lost of products for those three main games now, they are really only pitching sales for 3 games, and I can't help bu think that hurts an actual store that only sells one company's products.

Also, not saying I would prefer all of those older games back as they were, I recognize that GW's putting superior stuff our now than they used to, just saying the variety blows.

Compare that with a good FLGS in the present day, too. Which alongside the main GW offerings could well also be selling/demoing/being played in store the likes of X Wing, DZC, Infinity, Warmachine, Malifaux, Bolt Action, Flames Of
War...

It is true, none of these games are anything to rival the size and ubiquity of 40K, but collectively, they must be approaching some sort of critical mass by now, and any store offering just GW product is going to suffer in comparison to those offering a much wider and more diverse range.

Of course, those sorts of store are a rare animal in the UK, which is why the GW model seems to work much better here than in other territories, but it does explain why they struggle to gain the same sort of footprint elsewhere on the planet.

I am a long time (decade plus) hobbyist, and I will never go to a GW over an independent stockist if I can help it.

I just dont like being pestered while I browse/shop. I dont want staff coming over to chat bollocks to me to make a sale. This invariably has happened to me in GW stores and based on my own (admittedly subjective) experience, has gotten worse. I once had an employee try to persuade me to buy a lizardman carnosaur as it is 'a really good unit'. We had established already in that conversation that I only played 40k...

The final nail in the coffin was travelling across the country to meet a long time friend for a game of 40k, going into a GW to play, and being told we were only allowed to play 1000 pts.

I'm not a habitual GW basher like many, I just think their customer service is shoddy & refuse to put up with it.

 somecallmeJack wrote:

I'm not a habitual GW basher like many, I just think their customer service is shoddy & refuse to put up with it.

That's an interesting point there, for a few years customer service was the best thing about GW, but in the last year or so (actually since about the very moment they moved to one man stores) that has just gotten worse and worse.

Well, its funny you say that Jonolikespie, because I remember a few years back, GW was a shop with a very friendly atmosphere. Staff were happy to let you browse, and equally happy to chat without pushing for a sale. Now, it feels like you're on a conveyor belt, they just want to sell you something, anything, and get rid of you to move you onto the next person. It makes for a very awkward atmosphere in their stores, although I would say this trend has been developing for a while, not just in the last year. I actually havent been in a GW since about 2011.

KTG17 wrote:
*** By working - I mean doing a good job promoting the hobby any better than anything else ***

This one line shows you and Games Workshop don't agree on what their stores should be doing.

GW think their stores should recruit short term customers in a very focussed demographic and maximise income from them in that short term. Rinse and repeat.

You want them to be beacons of light drawing people into the wider hobby of miniature gaming and maximisinoresg their hobby involvement.

I'd rather frequent your stores, but GW shareholders would probably rather own the GW version.

I would rather frequent stores that promote and support the war gaming hobby.(My LFGS.)
Than frequent the high speed wallet raping of the young/inexperienced stores Mr T.Kirby wants ....
The GW share holders would prefer steady long term growth, but Mr Kirby is getting rich short term and telling the share holders any thing he thinks is necessary to keep them sweet.

Everything good about GW is from the talented hard working staff.
Everything bad is the short term get rich quick schemes from Mr T .Kirby.

If you look at what EX GW staff do away from the poisoned influence of Kirby , the difference is amazing.

I couldn't say how effective GW stores are (although the recent downsizing and closure of so many of them certainly seems like a hint) but this:

KTG17 wrote:
... if I were to open some kind of business, I would never open a comic book shop, hobby store, nor gaming store. I've noticed that one of these kinds of businesses might enjoy some major success at some point, they all seem to go out of business or be sold off at some point, which leaves me to believe that while someone with a passion for these is justified in trying to open a business doing what they love, but they dont seem like great investments.

As it happens most start-up retail businesses don't last more than 5 years. Many last much less. Retail is one of those fields that to a lot of people looks easier than it is (I know all about 'x'... so surely I could run a successful store selling it!') and it's only once they find themselves with a lease, a swag of bills, a massive debt accrued to build up a starting inventory, and no idea of how to actually get people in the front door that it suddenly starts to come clear just how hard it really is to be successful at it...

The stores that last are those run by people who both know their product and know how to sell it. They're fairly few and far between.

I have been with 40K and the many related Specialist Games for nearly 20 years. I have around 7 fully painted armies for 40K, three fleets for Battlefleet Gothic, 4 Necromunda Gangs (and two for Gorkamorka), several Inquisitor figures, and have just started playing Epic: Armageddon.

And I have yet to step foot in a Games Workshop store. In fact there isn't one in a hundred miles of me.

Several versions of LGS and the Internet has done a thousand times the work of GW. Hell, I was even on the GW forums back when it existed.

The brick and mortar model is dying for most intents and purposes. I think the same goes for GW, and they don't have the constant cash infusion potential that is Magic: The Gathering.

Seriously, when you walk into your game store, and there's lights on and heat - you have the M:tG players to thank for that.

There used to be 3 GW stores within reasonable driving distance of me. There are now none. I think their brick and mortar stores will contract significantly into more regional hub stores, but those hubs wont be like huge battle bunkers - they'll be manageable sized stores with relatively reasonable fixed costs.

At least, that's what i see in my area *shrug*. I have no special knowledge on it. I have to assume though that a game store that says "I am only going to sell this one range!" has a hard time staying in the black. Essentially that's what a GW store does. It's a retail outlet for one product, a game store for one range. Really hard model to sell, and stay profitable with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
I can't say that the High Elf Archers going direct only is a bad thing. Those models are hideous.

Why they do not make the Lothern Sea Guard frames(which are currently available for direct sales) into an actual boxed set for the shops is beyond me.

Because that 16.50 for 5 lothern sea guard probably sells to a wholesale retailer for half (or even less) than that.

Meaning GW gets 8.25 for which it has to cover costs, overhead, and profit on that sprue. Or you sell direct, and you get 16.50 for it, to cover costs overhead and profit, and likely, in this case sales tax (this may vary state to state, but where i'm from, if you sell to a wholesaler, you don't charge them the sales tax - the sales tax is only passed onto the end user) on that sprue. Both are eating up the same amount of warehouse space until they sell - just one is selling to the wholesaler and one is selling to the direct end user.

Though granted there are different stocking inventory strategies employed with direct vs. wholesale, which is a whole 'nother thread in and of itself, but still.

richred_uk wrote:

KTG17 wrote:
*** By working - I mean doing a good job promoting the hobby any better than anything else ***

This one line shows you and Games Workshop don't agree on what their stores should be doing.

GW think their stores should recruit short term customers in a very focussed demographic and maximise income from them in that short term. Rinse and repeat.

You want them to be beacons of light drawing people into the wider hobby of miniature gaming and maximisinoresg their hobby involvement.

I'd rather frequent your stores, but GW shareholders would probably rather own the GW version.

Actually, re-reading what I wrote I see I wasnt clear on the point I wanted to make. 'Promoting the hobby' meant their hobby, as opposed to the hobby as a whole, which I think they would like to believe other gaming systems dont exist. Or at least make you believe that.

So by that I mean, do GW stores really promote their products any better than a hobby/gaming store in addition to the GW website? I didnt know general hobby/gaming stores were rare in the UK, but every town in the US will have a couple or few depending on the size of the city. And I have been into gaming for many years, and have never set foot into a GW store, so I didnt need one to promote my interest. And in towns where hobby/gaming stores already exist, then what is GW accomplishing by moving in? To me, I would find a trip to a gaming store with a wider selection of games much more interesting versus one that has just 3 (40k, WFB, and LOTR - so I should say two games lol). So that being said, if GW was in my town, I prob wouldnt go to it, as I could already see everything they have on the GW site.

That was the point of my post. But I see now that in the UK there is a model that works for them, but that same model doesnt seem to really work in the US. I can see how GW stores would go out of business rather quickly in an area after the intial interest in the actual location wears off. But, if in the UK there are really the only place to go to play a game, then I can see them offering more to someone there.

I'd say, based on that clarification, then yes, GW stores do work, because at the moment, if you were in an independant shop that sold more than just GW, most of what GW is offering right now doesn't stand up too well to comparison, so offering everything in isolation is probably an effective way of making it look better.

Don't think anyone works in them, if that's what you mean? Local one to me seems to have been closed every time I have walked past over the past couple of weeks, including the days leading up to Xmas and immediately after boxing day when the town has been absolutely rammed with people. Insert your own face-palm...

Probably a decade or so ago now I used to work in a store, and it was 3 full timers and a part timer. And that was for a small store. While you might say that is excessive, you would have thought there could have been a middle ground - I really, really can't understand that logic of dropping to a one-man. For so many reasons that have been repeated ad-nauseum, but I think most of all because it's a dangerous route to take - in any job which involves dealing with a lot of kids, it leads to the possibility of some kind of 'Jimmy Saville'-type situation. The kids are vulnerable, so are the staff members themselves who are open to accusations and with potentially no other corroborating support or defending statement from another staff member.

And, the problem is that it only takes this 'issue' to happen once. Then, once the public becomes aware we can wave goodbye to the GW highstreet store.

KTG17 wrote:
...
...
...

That was the point of my post. But I see now that in the UK there is a model that works for them, but that same model doesnt seem to really work in the US. I can see how GW stores would go out of business rather quickly in an area after the intial interest in the actual location wears off. But, if in the UK there are really the only place to go to play a game, then I can see them offering more to someone there.

The UK has a vibrant wargames club scene. If anything, people don't go to games shops to play games. They play at clubs and people's houses. DakkaDakka members have often remarked on the importance that shop based gaming has in the USA, in contrast to the UK.

The reason why GW shops are successful here is because of heritage and high population density.

They can work, but the problem is that GW doesn't know how to run a retail business. I'm positively sure that there are people in GW that are scratching their heads and calling for reform, but I'm also sure there are many that just want to lie low and protect their own job.

GW stores after expenses become pure profit for GW, so it blows my mind that they mismanage them so badly by making the decisions they do.

Well I've been in plenty of GW stores in the UK and Ireland, and so far haven't seen one without gaming tables. They always seem to have friendly staff and a few people in the store browsing or playing. Also, I got into the hobby due to going into a GW store, so that worked. However I kind of agree with the whole idea that they kind of brainwash you into assuming there are no other store choices "we are the hobby", because I admit I hadn't really considered if I could buy Warhammer products anywhere but at their store until a couple of years ago.