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On a quad gun, behind an adl with a group of havocs. They have the range to match the quad, the ATSKNF keeps them from running... 2+ cover.... Just a thought

 Roci wrote:
On a quad gun, behind an adl with a group of havocs. They have the range to match the quad, the ATSKNF keeps them from running... 2+ cover.... Just a thought

You're paying 190 points to give a squad of havocs shrouded and ATSKNF? Ouch.

BS 10 is wasted on a quadgun so is anything over BS 5 for that matter

Yeah, I only ever play against CSM and trying to put him into context using the armies I see. It was that or stuff him in with oblits.

Only time I would ever get to run him would be in my white scars army. Of which he wouldn't fit well. Though, I could see him with a squad of devastators and coteaz. In some ruins it would be twin linked goodness. At 580 points it would be a fairly expensive unit.

If you meant Devastator Centurions, then sure.

 pretre wrote:

 Roci wrote:
On a quad gun, behind an adl with a group of havocs. They have the range to match the quad, the ATSKNF keeps them from running... 2+ cover.... Just a thought

You're paying 190 points to give a squad of havocs shrouded and ATSKNF? Ouch.

190 points to get up to 3 units of Chosen who can infiltrate, are shrouded and have ATSKNF, you mean.

If they are Black Legion, I believe that makes them scoring units as well. If so, I would consider that a decent spend.

I am thinking a few things:

Attach him to a CSM squad with mark of slaanesh, icon of excess, extra ccws. A big 15-20 man squad is tempting. FNP, ATSKNF, Shrouded and Hit and Run for the squad.
Seems like it would be a durable scoring unit and very flexible. Expensive though.

I would rather take a codex chosen squad rather than the cypher supplement squad though, so you can give them a mark, namely slaanesh and an Icon. You can still infiltrate them but they'd get FNP from the icon. Fun times.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 Roci wrote:
On a quad gun, behind an adl with a group of havocs. They have the range to match the quad, the ATSKNF keeps them from running... 2+ cover.... Just a thought

You're paying 190 points to give a squad of havocs shrouded and ATSKNF? Ouch.

190 points to get up to 3 units of Chosen who can infiltrate, are shrouded and have ATSKNF, you mean.

If they are Black Legion, I believe that makes them scoring units as well. If so, I would consider that a decent spend.

It's a formation, they don't benefit from the primary detachment rules, as the C:SM's flyers don't even get chapter tactics.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
It's a formation, they don't benefit from the primary detachment rules, as the C:SM's flyers don't even get chapter tactics.

That depends on the specific wordings involved. Black Legion does specify that only Chosen units chosen as part of the Black Legion detachment are Troops. However, the Eldar Spiritseer says that "If your army contains a Spiritseer, Wraithguard... are Troops choices", making the Ghost Warriors formation potentially have troops units in it. For the purpose of this discussion, what you're saying is right, but be careful to make it as full generalization.

Cypher would be interesting in an assault squad. Between the pistols (a 16" bolt pistol??) giving him 4 (5 on the charge) attacks 2 at AP2, plus hit and run to bail the squad on the opponents turn, it could make a nasty way to smoother hard hitting ranged units. Or just a pack of Grey Hunters.

I'm actually thinking of using SM with tau allies;
- iron hands chapter tactics (one word TANK)
- usual chapter master on bike
- 5/6 grav centurions, omniscopes and missile launchers
- cypher (for infiltrate)
- Swiss army commander (for endless buffs and FUN)
I've read the rules on infiltrate and it says if at least one model has it, then the whole unit has it. And in the independent character section it says that a character can join a unit and start in reserves. But that's the way I've read it, no doubt GW will FAQ it and most likely the unit will be able to infiltrate, based on cyphers rules/background you'd hope at least but this is GW. Anyway this used to be done with shadowsun conferring infiltrate, but now cypher can do it, so you have a free HQ slot in the tau allies for a Swiss army commander (aka buff commander, but I prefer this name) tactics are pretty obvious, maybe go into area terrain with the infiltrate move if you're going second, with shrouded a nice 2+/3+ cover save.

 Magc8Ball wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
It's a formation, they don't benefit from the primary detachment rules, as the C:SM's flyers don't even get chapter tactics.

That depends on the specific wordings involved. Black Legion does specify that only Chosen units chosen as part of the Black Legion detachment are Troops. However, the Eldar Spiritseer says that "If your army contains a Spiritseer, Wraithguard... are Troops choices", making the Ghost Warriors formation potentially have troops units in it. For the purpose of this discussion, what you're saying is right, but be careful to make it as full generalization.

I appreciate the clarification, I don't use allies in my armies and was not clear about the rules. Yes, the wording of the supplement seems to agree with this statement.

Minimanj wrote:
I'm actually thinking of using SM with tau allies;
- iron hands chapter tactics (one word TANK)
- usual chapter master on bike
- 5/6 grav centurions, omniscopes and missile launchers
- cypher (for infiltrate)
- Swiss army commander (for endless buffs and FUN)
I've read the rules on infiltrate and it says if at least one model has it, then the whole unit has it. And in the independent character section it says that a character can join a unit and start in reserves. But that's the way I've read it, no doubt GW will FAQ it and most likely the unit will be able to infiltrate, based on cyphers rules/background you'd hope at least but this is GW. Anyway this used to be done with shadowsun conferring infiltrate, but now cypher can do it, so you have a free HQ slot in the tau allies for a Swiss army commander (aka buff commander, but I prefer this name) tactics are pretty obvious, maybe go into area terrain with the infiltrate move if you're going second, with shrouded a nice 2+/3+ cover save.

Unfortunately do to wording changes in 6th, this nolonger seems to work, see YMDC and the above discussion. One would expect it to, but it in fact does not. What it seems to allow the IC's to do is inflitrate with squads that already have it, in Shadowsun's case XV25's.

This probably also the reason that the Chosen formation confers infiltrate as a formation wide special rule.

As he comes with so many USRs, Cypher's real value is conferring them. While I am not overly impressed by his AP2 CC attacks or the fact that his shots always hit, I am impressed by what he brings to a huge squad of guardsmen. I don't know if I am 200 points impressed, but it is at least worth a thought. Infiltrating units without infiltrate is sketchy at best, but Cypher has so much more potential.

 FifteenHours wrote:

A.) This doesn't help the part where an IC is allowed to start joined with a squad inside of a dedicated transport. Which has nothing to do with reserves. And nothing to do with "magically attaching an IC".

But isn't that allowance, to deploy on the table attached to a unit if both are inside of the transport, explicitly allowed in the rules?

 FifteenHours wrote:

B) RAI it clearly is meant to be work that ICs give infiltrate, so any other interpretation borders on the rules lawyer/WAAC kind of angle to be honest. I would never deny people joining Huron or Ahriman to a unit and infiltrating them the ability to do so. You know, spirit of the game and all that.

Does it? Should Shadowsun and a big, sneaky Riptide be able to infiltrate? How about an IC and some ninja-like Centurion Devastators? I suppose you could argue it either way, but calling the side that doesn't have 30" tall robots jumping out of the bushes WAAC is disingenuous. Besides - this is much more of a clear RAW question that doesn't really lend itself to RAI to be considered.

 FifteenHours wrote:

So the change here is that ICs do join units before the game starts which still satisfies "ICs may start the game joined..." Hence, this is what allows starting joined in transports. Joining units on the battlefield before the game starts is triggered by the deploy action, not by the game starting. . E.g This does allow an IC to confer a Scout redeployment to a unit and vice versa. Scout is worded as "at least one model in the unit with the Scout USR may redeploy...".

In order for the Scout redeploy to be conferred, the IC must first be legally deployed attached to the unit receiving the rule - the ways that such a legal deployment can occur are detailed in the rules.

 FifteenHours wrote:

During a deployment phase you first set up your army to your satisfaction. Then you make a single declaration to your opponent, "this is how I am deploying." At which time all the deploy triggers and restrictions are evaluated simultaneously. This step joins ICs and units before moving on to the next deployment phase.

This can be argued as a potential logical step, but is not supported by the rules.

 FifteenHours wrote:
D.) Upgrade characters like Gunnery Sergeant Harker allow a non-infiltrating unit to infiltrate, and this again gives more weight to that RAI this is what is intended.

No it certainly does not. Harker can only be purchased and used in one single unit. Joining an IC to anything and conferring infiltrate to it is a very difficult RAI stance to take - think Shadowsun infiltrating with a Riptide.

 FifteenHours wrote:

E.) The main issue simplified in all these debates: Most people say that the IC joins the unit early enough to grant them Infiltrate (using the above reasoning), while a minority are saying that they CANT join the unit until deployment, in which case infiltrate can't be granted in time.

Do "most people" actually say that, or did you just make that up? Have you honestly asked "most people?"

WRT to the "most people" argument, I think we can pretty safely say that if you walk into any given FLGS and ask some people how ICs and Infiltrate works, they'll flip the BRB open to the Infiltrate special rule section and say "ICs confer Infiltrate to their unit, but units don't give infiltrate to attached ICs", without giving any thought to crazy deployment sequence based argument.

The fact the deployment rules are outright slowed does not make them any less rules though.

I mean, LEGALLY, you can place a freaking "r" shaped cliff so that some of it is somehow ABOVE the enemy quad gun, and the rest of it blocking its LoS to anything relevant. despite the fact logically you build fortifications on top of terrain, and not discover what is the surrounding terrain after building them.
Also, having an all-flamer team you can only kill up to the range of the front flamer no matter how many wounds you deal. add a single bolter? and you can kill anything within 24" with said flamers, despite the flamers not being able to even reach there.


Rules are dumb at times, live with it and play by them. we cant just modify them whenever they don't feel right, because what does not feel right by one might feel right by another.
(unless the two players have mutual agreement, in that case its fine.)

Rapture wrote:
Do "most people" actually say that, or did you just make that up? Have you honestly asked "most people?"

No I am not making it up. It's FACT. One only has to look at all the comments on BOLS facebook group regarding Cypher and infiltrating. Or with Heresy-Online. Or with Bolter-Chainsword: Almost all the comments are discussing attaching Cypher to a squad and infiltrating and no one is even disputing that. It's only here I have seen people claim you cannot do it.

And I stand by what I said about it being a WAAC argument, because it is. If it wasn't they wouldn't spend so much of their time arguing about it online. 40k is a beer and pretzels game anyway, if people can't accept that and wanna spend their time being rules lawyers then the jokes on them.

And yeah, even most tournaments allow it so whatever.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rapture wrote:

 FifteenHours wrote:

B) RAI it clearly is meant to be work that ICs give infiltrate, so any other interpretation borders on the rules lawyer/WAAC kind of angle to be honest. I would never deny people joining Huron or Ahriman to a unit and infiltrating them the ability to do so. You know, spirit of the game and all that.

Does it? Should Shadowsun and a big, sneaky Riptide be able to infiltrate? How about an IC and some ninja-like Centurion Devastators? I suppose you could argue it either way, but calling the side that doesn't have 30" tall robots jumping out of the bushes WAAC is disingenuous. Besides - this is much more of a clear RAW question that doesn't really lend itself to RAI to be considered.

I wouldn't give a crap if someone wanted to do that; Either of those examples are fine with me. As I said, there are cheap and easy counters to infiltrate anyway with things like servo-skulls.

The fact you are getting so worked up about it actually proves how desperate you are to avoid playing these lists and probably indicates you care more about winning than having fun. Sorry but that is the truth, so if you want to throw the WAAC label around that is fine, but maybe start with yourself? Besides, I never said you were a WAAC player. I merely suggested that the argument often (not always) comes from a WAAC angle (not you). So relax.

RAI should ALWAYS be considered, because it's just a game. And a terribly unbalanced game at that. It;s a beer and pretzels game and GW admit this in the rulebook. Once you embrace this you can enjoy 40k a lot more. Therefore RAI should always be more important than RAW. Go play other gaming systems if you want your competitive fix, leave 40k for laid back fun gaming, you will be much happier for it and not have to waste so much of your life arguing rules on forums, rules that GW don't care in the slightest about fixing, because they don't care about balance or even playtest anymore...

Yaknow, I'm from the "you cant do that" camp, and If I am somehow a WAAC player with my tau that got no pathfinders, just 1 riptide I didn't even build yet, no fortifications, no HYMP broadsides, no farsight bomb, no ethreals and for my new commander I recently bought freaking RALAI (costs pretty much like cypher, not much more durable, and not even allowed to join units.)

On the other hand, my friend got himself the C'Tan, who I have no problem playing against, even WITH D weapons. under the full knowledge he will probably crush me.

Some of us has another idea of "fun", and using the "well.....the MIGHT have meant that you can, so we will, despite it making no damn sense in any way" is what we consider trying to win at all costs.
You want to infiltrate with your awesome infiltrating characther? either he goes solo, or bring a damn infiltrator. a sneaky HQ should not hide a squad of terminators in his pockets, and should never EVER make a godamn riptide suddenly be able to sneak on you. it makes no fething sense.

No one said you are a WAAC player so I don't know why you are so angry. Probably a language barrier.

A lot of things make zero sense in 40k. Not point in getting worked up about it.

I also wouldn't call Huron or Ahriman an "awesome infiltrating character". They are quite poor in the grand scheme of things and Ahriman in particular is overpriced. Chaos need all the help they can get being a weak codex and infiltrating a few units doesn't help their problems much at all. Most the time it just buys the units that infiltrate about 8-12" anyway. Not exactly game breaking, even if you infiltrate a riptide it isn't game changing, there are simple counters towards this. I don't know why people are scared of it.

At the end of the day you could just take 35pts worth of servo skulls if you have such a big problem with infiltrating riptides or infiltrating in general. Or you know, get some cheap ass scouts.They are not exactly hard to beat anyway.

Infiltrating riptides might be a bit stupid from a fluff perspective, but actually most the infiltrating ICs make total sense: Ahriman is obviously gonna be making squads invisible with psychic powers, Huron is a master at ambushing and has some psyker ability too, so makes total sense.

WHat i intent to do is to Put Cypher+Kharn in a squad of Khorne Chosen in a LR.

2 Meltas, 2 Power weapons+Icon, having Cypher giving Shrouded and Hit&Run, i personnaly don't care that much for Infiltration.

That would make a units with 7 S7 Ap2 Attacks that hits on 2's ,2 S7 AP2 At Init8, and 5 S5 AP3 rerol to wound(pair LC) and 10 S5 Ap3 A with another 20 S5 and all are rerollable Attacks when assaulting.

With 3 Plasma pistols shots, wich 2 of them are rerollable and doesn't get Hot and 2 meltas+5 pistols each time they use Hi&Run.

It whil be a hefty sack of points ( 570pts) but heck it will rock!

One thing to remember: even with the ruling from TO's that infiltration is conferred to a squad. the rulebook still very specifically says that IC's without infiltrate cannot join units of infiltrators.

 Magc8Ball wrote:
One thing to remember: even with the ruling from TO's that infiltration is conferred to a squad. the rulebook still very specifically says that IC's without infiltrate cannot join units of infiltrators.

This would be the inverse. An infiltrating IC joining a non-infiltrating unit, thus infiltrating them.

 Magc8Ball wrote:
One thing to remember: even with the ruling from TO's that infiltration is conferred to a squad. the rulebook still very specifically says that IC's without infiltrate cannot join units of infiltrators.

If it was this simple, don't you think so many people wouldn't be on the 'wrong' side of things. All i can say is that people in my gaming group have been doing this for a while and i kind of sunk in and it didn't break the game at all, so that is how we played it. We simply brushed over the stupidly laid out deployment rules and played how we felt the game flowed, as more and more tournaments are doing now. Give it a go, i am sure you will find it much less stressful and will save you ages of time finding and quoting page references at someone who has already made up their mind.

 McGibs wrote:
Ok, so... a few things to clarify:

First, you cannot attach cypher to a unit and infiltrate them. This is the same issue with Huron giving an IC (like himself) infiltrate and then giving it for free to another unit. The two units deploy at different times, and so can't be attached. The best you can get out of an infiltrating IC and a non infiltrating unit is outflank, as they both deploy out of reserves. There's a million YMDC threads about this.
"

Second, cypher's extra D3 victory points rule is only in effect when there are also dark angels on the board. It does not just give you free VPs if he lives against any other army.
"The following additional objectives must be used in missions that include both Cypher AND DARK ANGEL MODELS"

That being said, I still think he's an amazing IC to put in a big blob of CSM to give them hit and run, shrouded, and ATSKNF. 20 khornish marines footslogging suddenly looks pretty viable. Hit and running to generate absurd amounts of furious charge rage attacks, with shrouded to protect from shooting.

This. Except that Cypher does get the D3 VPs against everyone, it's just that only DA get the extra VPs against him


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On topic: I want to see how he does behind a quad-gun or Icarus lascannon...

I'm not sure that he give extra D3 VP even Vs non-DA army.

the first sentence is pretty clear to me that you use these rules only if there is DA models on the table.

if you don't face a DA army, you don't give extra VP but you don't get any either.

Something interesting is that Though you can't take marks, rewards and Artifacts to Fallen Chosen in the formation, you can still give them Gift of Mutation and they still have CoC rule.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
I'm not sure that he give extra D3 VP even Vs non-DA army.

the first sentence is pretty clear to me that you use these rules only if there is DA models on the table.

if you don't face a DA army, you don't give extra VP but you don't get any either.

Something interesting is that Though you can't take marks, rewards and Artifacts to Fallen Chosen in the formation, you can still give them Gift of Mutation and they still have CoC rule.

This is correct.

The following addition objectives must be used in missions that include both Cypher and Dark Angels models

Also as far as I'm aware ICs w/out infiltrate can't join units w infiltrate and ICs w infiltrate can only outflank units w/out it (as they're deployed as reserves not as infiltrators). RAI probably means that ICs confer Infiltrate to their unit but anyway

Infiltration-bestowing concerns aside...

Cypher's use in a Chaos army is obvious: getting to bring along up to three units of buddies (who CAN infiltrate regardless of what rulings you're using) who then get to set up in easy double-tap plasma gun range (for a quick example).

What are his best uses, though, running standalone, either in a Chaos or Loyalist army? I can't really think of anything specifically that cannot be filled almost as well by a standard HQ unit. Sure, he's a close-range monster... but is that his only purpose? Get in close to enemy units, shoot them in the face, and then charge?

He's wasted manning a fortification weapon. Using him to give Shrouded to an important unit could be good, though if it's just a unit that's going to sit back and shoot it had better be an expensive unit else you're wasting his points.

I do think that as the Infiltration question gets more resolved (Frontline's rulings for the LVO might set the stage for a fairly universal "yes" ruling) his value will become higher, as pretty much every Space Marine army has a unit they would love to infiltrate either for range or for line of sight, and a lack of characters who have the ability to grant. At that point, his use becomes easier to justify.

Until that happens, though... I'm kind of at a loss.

To my, Cypher fills one slot very well - protecting a shooty C:SM command squad.

Example unit -

MotF w/ combi-plasma
4x Veterans w/ Plasma
Apothecary
Cypher
In a drop pod.

Cypher protects the otherwise flimsy MotF from enemy dedicated CC challenges with fantastic overwatch, accepting challenges in his stead (and promptly whipping some ass), and then providing H&R so the unit can disengage and disgorge glorious plasma unto the enemy. Shrouded also makes the 5+ of the intervening pod (or cover you disembarked into, RIGHT?) a 3+, or ruins into a 2+.

I just got a cypher kill on Sunday. My big mek with a shokk attack gun rolled a 1,1 BOOM while cypher was locked in to combat with my teammates squad. all my lootas, his pathfinders and cypher were removed from play.

However, prior to that Cypher infiltrated with 9 terminators, assaulted my Bikerboss and bikernobs, and came out down one wound and with 3 termies. So he did pretty well as I had never had that biker unit been completely destroyed, and he had done it in turn 2.

I love Cypher. I will be taking his formation with my Orks against my brother's Dark Angels