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So now we have people going over because they dislike GWs codex values and see it as 'vigilante justice' and if all else fails... Boldface lie to your opponent to gain an advantage.

So many severe anti-social behaviors to justify extra points in the name of casualness.

Or you could just not go over the limit. I have dozens of lists, all built to be under the closest round number like 1500, 1750 and so on. If you have piles of datasheets all a few points over so you constantly have this issue, that sounds like a personal issue. Make all your lists 'under' and you will never have the problem.

For me, these are the things that have to be true for me to play someone who's over the points limt:
1. They're over by a miniscule amount
2. There's no easy way to get below the points limit by dropping a model or upgrade without being significantly under the limit
3. It's just a casual pick-up game with no prearrangement whatsoever
4. They literally just wrote the list and haven't even had 5 minutes to fix it.

nkelsch wrote:
So now we have people going over because they dislike GWs codex values and see it as 'vigilante justice' and if all else fails... Boldface lie to your opponent to gain an advantage.

So many severe anti-social behaviors to justify extra points in the name of casualness.

Or you could just not go over the limit. I have dozens of lists, all built to be under the closest round number like 1500, 1750 and so on. If you have piles of datasheets all a few points over so you constantly have this issue, that sounds like a personal issue. Make all your lists 'under' and you will never have the problem.

White lies are actually an important part of social interactions, i would regard a small lie over five points as being a lot less 'anti social' than being uptight about it.

Actually judging by the replies in this thread, i probably wouldn't want to play against someone who had that attitude, even if i wasn't over in points. Even my old 'tfg' opponent was fine with other people being a couple of points over, and he was bad enough.

if your idea of honesty and fair play is coming to a game where you knew in advance the points limit hundreds of points (slippery slope, 1 point or a hundred, it makes no difference) over and tell a 'white lie" saying your spot on, I am pretty sure that no one here would want to play you either.
the rules are the rules, respect is respect and honesty is honesty. there are no grey areas.

xruslanx wrote:



White lies are actually an important part of social interactions, i would regard a small lie over five points as being a lot less 'anti social' than being uptight about it.

But 'White Lies' or 'Cheating' is not part of games and a factor in 'sportsmanship. Why not avoid having to lie to make your opponent feel better and simply 'not go over'? While you are attempting to lie to keep social interaction good, know what else does that? Being a good sport, following the rules, not lying and not intentionally cheating.

Actually judging by the replies in this thread, i probably wouldn't want to play against someone who had that attitude, even if i wasn't over in points. Even my old 'tfg' opponent was fine with other people being a couple of points over, and he was bad enough.

"I'm am taking my ball and going home because you won't let me have my advantage"
"You can't decline a game with me because I am over the points limit, I quit and refuse to play you!"
"I broke the rules and won't follow the point limit but You are the problem."

 PrinceRaven wrote:
For me, these are the things that have to be true for me to play someone who's over the points limt:
2. There's no easy way to get below the points limit by dropping a model or upgrade without being significantly under the limit

That's the worst. If those few extra points are a meltabomb or something then no big deal. If they're the difference between taking an additional unit and not taking it then that is definitely a big deal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
After reading this thread, I am glad I don't play against most of you. 1-2 points over is not going to do much. There are many armies that I have built, for fun, that do this and don't use much in the way of upgrades, but I would have to play 8 points under and with an illegal squad as it is now under minimum size due to this "no overage ever" mentality.

And here's a good example. You've outright said that you get to take an extra unit by being slightly over the limit. Why do you think you should be able to take that unit?

"Ah, I only have 45 points and I want to take a deffkopta with a Buzzsaw... What? I am 20+ points over now? But if I drop that model I am drastically under, don't I deserve that advantage? You are rude for not letting me take it, it is only 1 model. I should have lied about it so you didn't know. I can't just 'rewrite' my list, any change can take a long time to plan for! You are such a terrible person for even complaining about it."

Or:

"Ah, I only have 45 points and I want to take a deffkopta with a Buzzsaw... Well, let's see. This Nob doesn't really need 'Eavy armor. I can take 15 grots instead of 19 grots and still be effective and I will drop this Rokkit boy from my Trukk boys. Now I am exactly under before I even leave my house. I am glad I made a legal list and now there are no potential social issues when I go to game."

You can always drop something or re-arrange your army to be under. You guys who say it can't be done are like politicians who say "we can't cut the budget! If we do school milk for poor kids *HAS* to go first, you don't hate poor kids do you?" There is always something which can be removed and but you simply don't want to lose anything. As someone said before... it is 'greedy'.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
For me, these are the things that have to be true for me to play someone who's over the points limt:
2. There's no easy way to get below the points limit by dropping a model or upgrade without being significantly under the limit

That's the worst. If those few extra points are a meltabomb or something then no big deal. If they're the difference between taking an additional unit and not taking it then that is definitely a big deal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
After reading this thread, I am glad I don't play against most of you. 1-2 points over is not going to do much. There are many armies that I have built, for fun, that do this and don't use much in the way of upgrades, but I would have to play 8 points under and with an illegal squad as it is now under minimum size due to this "no overage ever" mentality.

And here's a good example. You've outright said that you get to take an extra unit by being slightly over the limit. Why do you think you should be able to take that unit?

Why do you feel that I should have to play at an 8 point handicap? Why should you get an extra Lascannon if I can't have that one extra body? Why should you have access to weapons that ignore my armor in every squad, when I have to cut the ones that ignore your armor just to make points? Why should you get to have a that extra squad that I can't take because of 1 point.

I guess that I am more interested (and feel the game is more fair) in a closer point difference for balancing games. 8 points under is a fair bit different than 1 point over.

Then learn to build an army that is at the point level instead of above or below it. There is no excuse. you know about the game well in advanace and have loads of time to prepare (even more time to prepare a variety of lists at different points levels.

To be honest, part of playing the game IS the list building. if you need help andtutelage, I'm sure other members of your gaming community can help you learn this skill. Learning it is far better than purposely cheating or just giving yourself a handicap.

 megatrons2nd wrote:


Why do you feel that I should have to play at an 8 point handicap? Why should you get an extra Lascannon if I can't have that one extra body? Why should you have access to weapons that ignore my armor in every squad, when I have to cut the ones that ignore your armor just to make points? Why should you get to have a that extra squad that I can't take because of 1 point.

I guess that I am more interested (and feel the game is more fair) in a closer point difference for balancing games. 8 points under is a fair bit different than 1 point over.

And this is why no one should be over... people rationalize why they are 'ok' but others are causing issues. The only 'fair' solution is to not go over and learn to re-write your list to maximize the available points. If you are 8 points under in an army with upgrades less than 8 points, you are not very good at list building. Since every codex has cheap upgrades, it is possible to make legal lists and use almost all the points. Hundreds of people do it for tourneys for all variety of codexes. It can be done.

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Why do you feel that I should have to play at an 8 point handicap?

You don't have to play at a handicap. You have the same points available to spend, you just made the choice that a list that is 8 points under the limit is better for you than a list that gets exactly to the limit. It's a reasonable choice to make sometimes. For example, I might have enough points for a plasma gun but I take a melta gun instead because I need more anti-tank shooting, and end up 5 points under the limit. But I'm not going to whine about it and demand that I should be allowed to go over by 10 points so I can take another upgrade somewhere and spend those last points.

Why should you get an extra Lascannon if I can't have that one extra body?

Because my list is legal and yours isn't, therefore my "extra" lascannon is not not extra at all.

Why should you have access to weapons that ignore my armor in every squad, when I have to cut the ones that ignore your armor just to make points?

I don't know. It sounds like you're just not very good at building a list.

Why should you get to have a that extra squad that I can't take because of 1 point.

See previous answer about the lascannon. My list is legal and therefore the squad isn't "extra". Yours is illegal.

8 points under is a fair bit different than 1 point over.

You're right. 8 points under is a legal list. 1 point over is an illegal list, and tells your opponent that you are the kind of person who takes more than you're entitled to and pressures your opponent to accept it. It's just like movement distances: you're entitled to move 6", you're free to choose to move 4" because you think it's a better move, but you don't get to move 7" just because it would give you an advantage that you want.

I can see both sides to this argument, really. I prefer to keep it friendly and not incredibly stingy or strict by allowing my friends a <5 point difference that won't really sway the course of the whole game. It's a game. I don't blame losing today's Kill Team game to 1 extra point (just one failed break roll where I'd have otherwise won )

On the other hand, it's not exactly a dramatic quest to cobble together a list in just a couple minutes (like I had to today with 750 points) with a couple more to modify things as seen fit. Just start with your cheapest compulsory HQ and troops, grab that thing or two you really want to use, then fill in the remaining points switching out better HQ or troops or complimenting the rest of your list.

I think the real problem is that nobody budges in YMDC. Failing to merit the opposition's argument is what really generates all the friction, and from there people are even more adamant about their opinions. We're all respectable folks here... Except for that Slaanesh cultist over in the far left corner.

Edit: Occupy YMDC (with logic and tolerance!)

 KommissarKiln wrote:
I can see both sides to this argument, really. I prefer to keep it friendly and not incredibly stingy or strict by allowing my friends a <5 point difference that won't really sway the course of the whole game. It's a game. I don't blame losing today's Kill Team game to 1 extra point (just one failed break roll where I'd have otherwise won )

On the other hand, it's not exactly a dramatic quest to cobble together a list in just a couple minutes (like I had to today with 750 points) with a couple more to modify things as seen fit. Just start with your cheapest compulsory HQ and troops, grab that thing or two you really want to use, then fill in the remaining points switching out better HQ or troops or complimenting the rest of your list.

I think the real problem is that nobody budges in YMDC. Failing to merit the opposition's argument is what really generates all the friction, and from there people are even more adamant about their opinions. We're all respectable folks here... Except for that Slaanesh cultist over in the far left corner.

Edit: Occupy YMDC (with logic and tolerance!)

We can see very well what the opposite side is saying but this is a place to debate rules RAW, RAI and HWYPI. As 'limit' has a clear definition and is not a grey area nor is it a broken aspect of the rules we respond as such and say no, it's cheating. Not within the rules. A clear violation of RAW.

The consensus on HYWPI also seems to express the same views dispute the 'most players are ok with it' comment the GW makes. Now everyone knows where the larger community stands on this issue and a clear RAW definition is in place. If anyone, along with their local gaming crew would like to house rule limits into 'estimates' that's fine. We are not here to deny anyone their preferred way of doing things, simply to come together to better define rules for 40k. If you don't like a rule, don't use it, change it, something but please don't come in here and seek permission to do so. That is not up to us. It's up to your flgs, friends, TOs and anyone else who has a steak in your 40k games. You don't need our permission to do anything, play as you like. If your opponent and you come to a consensus it really does not matter what we say here.

We are not here to tell you how you should play. We are here to better define the rules for playing found in the books.

 Peregrine wrote:

 megatrons2nd wrote:
Why do you feel that I should have to play at an 8 point handicap?

You don't have to play at a handicap. You have the same points available to spend, you just made the choice that a list that is 8 points under the limit is better for you than a list that gets exactly to the limit. It's a reasonable choice to make sometimes. For example, I might have enough points for a plasma gun but I take a melta gun instead because I need more anti-tank shooting, and end up 5 points under the limit. But I'm not going to whine about it and demand that I should be allowed to go over by 10 points so I can take another upgrade somewhere and spend those last points.

Why should you get an extra Lascannon if I can't have that one extra body?

Because my list is legal and yours isn't, therefore my "extra" lascannon is not not extra at all.

Why should you have access to weapons that ignore my armor in every squad, when I have to cut the ones that ignore your armor just to make points?

I don't know. It sounds like you're just not very good at building a list.

Why should you get to have a that extra squad that I can't take because of 1 point.

See previous answer about the lascannon. My list is legal and therefore the squad isn't "extra". Yours is illegal.

8 points under is a fair bit different than 1 point over.

You're right. 8 points under is a legal list. 1 point over is an illegal list, and tells your opponent that you are the kind of person who takes more than you're entitled to and pressures your opponent to accept it. It's just like movement distances: you're entitled to move 6", you're free to choose to move 4" because you think it's a better move, but you don't get to move 7" just because it would give you an advantage that you want.

To be fair, if I am playing a 500 pts game with someone and he has the choice to make a 510 point army or a 375 point one, due to the legal minimum unit size of his codex, I would not hesitate to let him go 10 points over, or maybe houserule that a 4-man Strike Squad is okay.

For example.

It is all down to context.

thats why this topic is usuallybetter off in the 40k general forum because there, opinions and possible other solutions and house rules and so forth are more the point. In posting it in here, it is a matter of what is the rules definition of the points limit and that is the limit is the limit. To go into house rules and "I dont mind' or how would you play its, I fell obfuscate the issue here which is, is it officially legal or not to go over. The rulebook specifically states a clear and resounding no. There are a million threads on opinions and how would you play its in the general section.

Except that this is a HYWPI topic, not RAW.

See OP.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Except that this is a HYWPI topic, not RAW.

See OP.

...and now you know how people play it.

For casual games played at my FLGS, if two players agree upon a point value, then we try to stay under that point value or right at it. Even if we go over by 1 point, it's good form to let your opponent know, "hey, do you mind if I'm over by 1 pt?" If possible you adjust accordingly and move on.

Truthfully though, we usually never go over by more than a single point, and tha's usually just to stick a meltabomb on a sgt somewhere.

1 point can be a big deal, however. For example, if you need to put a dozer blade on a rhino, but it would put you over by a point, it could be the difference between an immobilised rhino on turn one or not, which is a big deal. Just food for thought. Best advice, try to stay at the point value or below.

robzidious wrote:
For casual games played at my FLGS, if two players agree upon a point value, then we try to stay under that point value or right at it. Even if we go over by 1 point, it's good form to let your opponent know, "hey, do you mind if I'm over by 1 pt?" If possible you adjust accordingly and move on.

Truthfully though, we usually never go over by more than a single point, and tha's usually just to stick a meltabomb on a sgt somewhere.

1 point can be a big deal, however. For example, if you need to put a dozer blade on a rhino, but it would put you over by a point, it could be the difference between an immobilised rhino on turn one or not, which is a big deal. Just food for thought. Best advice, try to stay at the point value or below.

That meltabomb can also mean the difference between destroying an opponents vehicle or not.
So I don't really see the difference between the two examples.
Even one point upgrades can make a big difference under the right circumstances.
My advice: just don't go over the point limit.

What it boils down to for the OP if he asked us if we cheat and if we do, how extreme do we allow the cheat to be. I',m "making da call" that cheating is against the rules.

When i play wih my brother and one of us is going over regardless of what it is we always roll 2D6 to decide. what is says on the points is how far over you can go if you exceed this then tough titties, but thats just me and him and our rules are our own.

we only do it to avoid arguments and to come to a swift conclusion when points are concerned.

Zero points over is acceptable.

When two people agree upon a points limit, both should have enough respect to make their list equal to or less than the agreed upon limit.

1 point over is breaking the agreement, and disrespecting your opponent.

If you are over, it should be no big deal to drop something to make your list come in at or under the agreed upon points limit, and this should be done well before you are about to deploy.

I make lists that come to the points limit without going over. Then I tweak them and re-make them to shuffle things around without going over the limit that we have agreed upon.

If I am expected to make a list at or below the limit we have agreed upon, then I ask my opponent to adhere to the agreement as well. It is just common courtesy to do so.

 Frank&Stein wrote:

robzidious wrote:
For casual games played at my FLGS, if two players agree upon a point value, then we try to stay under that point value or right at it. Even if we go over by 1 point, it's good form to let your opponent know, "hey, do you mind if I'm over by 1 pt?" If possible you adjust accordingly and move on.

Truthfully though, we usually never go over by more than a single point, and tha's usually just to stick a meltabomb on a sgt somewhere.

1 point can be a big deal, however. For example, if you need to put a dozer blade on a rhino, but it would put you over by a point, it could be the difference between an immobilised rhino on turn one or not, which is a big deal. Just food for thought. Best advice, try to stay at the point value or below.

That meltabomb can also mean the difference between destroying an opponents vehicle or not.
So I don't really see the difference between the two examples.
Even one point upgrades can make a big difference under the right circumstances.
My advice: just don't go over the point limit.

No, you are absolutely right! That is my point entirely lol. 1 point can make a huge difference. That meltabomb could put your opponent over by 1 point which might end up being a blown land raider that otherwise he wouldn't have been able to kill.

5 points Max thats it other then that there can be some squad or equipment squishing i only play friendly games lists usually are on dot every once in a while some one is 5 under or over and thats as far as i ever saw some one go with the exception of a buddy and me switched armies he had never played guard and was about 100 points over i was about 10 under never playing chaos and it was a drinking night so no one really cried about it and i believe it ended up in a stale mate.

Staying under the points you've agreed is a matter of respect for your opponent. If you turn up for a pick up game with an 1850 list and I've only got a 1750 then readjusting may result in you being over but that is part of our agreement to play. But if you're going over on a game where you've had advance notice of the points value is bad sportsmanship and shows a lack of respect.

I know some people who then allow your opponent to go over by 5 times the points you're over. Which is a nice mechanic. You're a point over well I can add melta bombs to someone. You're 5 points and I can add a Psychic level or fist or something decent. You go 10 points or more and I might be adding a new unit.

Staying within the points is more than just following the rules and showing respect for your opponent. It is also SELF respect.

The way I see it, part of the battle is won before the first dice rolls, and thats with the ability to make a decent list. And because it is a large part of the game, the points limit should be respected. You wouldnt allow someone to have extra money if you are playing a game of Monopoly would you?

 cerbrus2 wrote:
The way I see it, part of the battle is won before the first dice rolls, and thats with the ability to make a decent list. And because it is a large part of the game, the points limit should be respected. You wouldnt allow someone to have extra money if you are playing a game of Monopoly would you?

If its a few one dollar notes who cares. I have had games where people gave all their 1 dollar notes to the loosing player. He lost next round.

I think it is going to the mentality. Many people/players here "you are cheating if you go over one whole point" and those like me who feel "the game is more balanced if the points values are closer regardless if it goes over a limit" Especially when said limit, as noted by the writers, is not a hard limit. (and yes it is noted in the rulebook that this overage is allowable with opponents consent) So it is not rude or cheating for me to ask you if you are okay with me being over. It is more rude for you to assume I will never ask. If you say no I will change my list, or simply say see you later if you give me grief about asking. Because I can see all the rules arguing coming a mile away because I interpreted a rule differently than you did, and you won't ever back down because you are always right when it comes to the rules. A bit of a facetious argument to go along with the I'm going to cheat on other rules bits I've read on here about those who go over, and don't respect the rules that way. Just as much of a gimme both ways.

As to my list building skills. I do well, when I get to play, with lists derided by the internet as sub par. Just because I don't upgrade to the ninety ninth percentile every model that can take an upgrade does not mean my list building sucks. I have lists in my Dark Eldar army(which I usually use for tournaments, not that I've been to one this past year) prepared long ahead of time. My Tau have not had much play since I took this new job, and I haven't had time to do a "real" list as I am working 13+ hours a day, 6+ days a week. This is my down time. Scan forums, reply to those that catch my interest, shower, watch a show while cuddling with my wife, play with the dog, clean up dog refuse, shower, and then sleep. Any time I get to play against someone to learn the nuances of the new Tau Codex will be pre arranged by about an hour. Less the 45+ minutes to get my stuff collected, and then drive to the nearest game shop. Yeah, I love being called a cheater and people telling me I've got time to do this or that when they don't live my life. Most of what is in my list are items that are required to field the unit. I have a total of 1 super buffed mega character in my 9 different Dark Eldar lists.

First off, it IS rude to knowingly go to a game over the limit. You knew ahead of time the limit and purposely go to the game to 'ask" (read pressure the opponent to accept whether they like it or not) there is way to describe this behavior as anything but rude. well, there is another term and that is narcissistic, which also applies to arguing that it is perfectly ok for YOU (not any person in particulate, just a figure of speech) and you alone to break the rules.
I have an idea. When you ask me if 'I mind" that you are 35 point the limit, You should have "not mind" if i counter with 'sure, I'll choose a rule to break to make it even. I think the rule i choose is the stats for lasguns. Guardsmen's lasguns now have the stats of lascannons".

I have posted many times, "How I would play it" or my groups 'house rules". i would be more than happy to discuss them at length in an appropriate forum where it would be relevant. here, we are discussing 'the actual rule" which says the limit is the maximum you can spend..