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 Palindrome wrote:
Epic Complete? In other words a limited edition boxed waste of time. At least they wont butcher the rules too badly (I hope).

Depends, if they alter it beyond all recognition so the old stuff doesn't work with it? I agree wholeheartedly.

If they keep to the rules so all the old stuff still works, or can be adapted with minimum fuss, them as someone who would dearly love Epic to return and has no stuff for it, this would represent a great way to get a foot back in the door without spending hours scratching around for models, printing PDFs (much rather have a proper, printed book) and modelling terrain etc..

Don't believe it for a second, but a little bit of me is a tad excited.

Love how these rumours go

40K Radio: There'll be a 40K 7th Edition in 2014, no new starter box though.
BoLS: 40K Radio is wrong, there'll be no new Edition of 40K
BoLS: Though there is no new Edition, there'll be a new Orks vs. Blood Angels starter box
Natfka: BoLS is wrong, the Orks vs. Blood Angels starter box is actually Epic 40K
Dakka: Sounds plausible, cause Space Hulk sells well on Ebay

....

....

....

Incoming future rumour: GW will release a 10mm Space Hulk Game of Orks vs. Blood Angels, which includes Stronghold Assault and D-Weapon rules.

willb2064 wrote:


I doubt it will be limited edition. More likely they will do a first run with a limited edition model then keep a regular box as direct order only. I'm pretty sure they have noticed Space Hulk eBay prices now and will want a peice of that.

If its a only a single box it may as well be limited edition. Surely even GW can see the benefits of a proper rerelease of Epic. Unfortunately for us gamers Im sure that the end product will be 'modernised'.

Yeah, return of epic? That's free-range bs. The last thing GW are going to do is cannibalize their 40k sales.

But... if I'd been fed a lie about a new starter box, and then realised it wasn't compatible with the rumour about a new edition, I'd probably try and save face by making up some gak about how it was actually a different product and not 40k. Then when it doesn't materialize, I can shrug and say "I guess it got delayed or canned", rather than admit to the mistake.

 Bull0 wrote:
Yeah, return of epic? That's free-range bs. The last thing GW are going to do is cannibalize their 40k sales.

Right. Battlefleet Gothic makes sense as a supplemental game that does things important to 40k yet unachievable by 40k, but from GW's point of view, anything you'd buy in Epic you should be buying in Apocalypse instead.

So Pretre, if they take back their prediction of a 40k boxed set and amend it to an epic one, does that count as two separate rumors or one amended one for the tally thread?

I like that the Naftka rumor about it being a new Epic starter box was "from two different sources" when literally all you need to do is send him the same rumor from two different email addresses and he'll still print it.

It's probably just a limited edition "every 40k book + bunch of minis" bundle

 Brother SRM wrote:
I like that the Naftka rumor about it being a new Epic starter box was "from two different sources" when literally all you need to do is send him the same rumor from two different email addresses and he'll still print it.

I don't know why but I laughed at that pretty hard. It's so true though.

 warboss wrote:
So Pretre, if they take back their prediction of a 40k boxed set and amend it to an epic one, does that count as two separate rumors or one amended one for the tally thread?

Generally, that ends up as two separate rumors. I'll take a look on Monday when I'm back in the office.

 AlexHolker wrote:

Right. Battlefleet Gothic makes sense as a supplemental game that does things important to 40k yet unachievable by 40k, but from GW's point of view, anything you'd buy in Epic you should be buying in Apocalypse instead.

Exactly this, and also the reason I have zero interest in Epic. I have no desire to collect same models in two different scales. Specialist games I'd like to see are BFG and some sort of 28mm scale Inquisimunda skirmish game.

It made sense when a Land Raider was the biggest thing you could feasibly get hold of and field in a 40k game.
I think there's still a market for it, just not a market that GW has any interest in.
That doesn't eliminate the possibility of a one-off self contained game though, it just makes it sillier.

 Bull0 wrote:
Yeah, return of epic? That's free-range bs. The last thing GW are going to do is cannibalize their 40k sales.

There is some quite dangerous logic there, why would a purchase of Epic cannabilise 40K sales? There is a substantial pool of customers who either have all they require for their current armies or simply have no interest in the 40K of today but who would be interested in Epic and there are undoubtably people who would wish to recreate their current armies in 6mm. It is in GW's best interests to claw back some of their diminished makret share and supporting a wider range of games would be an excellent place to start.

I would say that it is unlikely for many people to simply switch to Epic while leaving their 40K armies unfinished. If Epic was re-released with its ruleset essentially unchanged (and any changes made by someone competent) then I would personally buy 2 full armies at GWs extortionate prices just to do my bit to see its continued support.

Of course this is a rumour of dubious relibability and if Epic ever was released it would almost certainly be handled as badly as Space Hulk was but anyway.

 Palindrome wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
Yeah, return of epic? That's free-range bs. The last thing GW are going to do is cannibalize their 40k sales.

There is some quite dangerous logic there, why would a purchase of Epic cannabilise 40K sales? There is a substantial pool of customers who either have all they require for their current armies or simply have no interest in the 40K of today but who would be interested in Epic and there are undoubtably people who would wish to recreate their current armies in 6mm. It is in GW's best interests to claw back some of their diminsihed makret share and supporting a wider range of games would be an excellent place to start.

I would say that it is unlikely for many people to simply switch to Epic while leaving their 40K armies unfinished.

Of course this is a rumour of dubious relibability and if Epic ever was released it would almost certainly be handled as badly as Space Hulk was but anyway.

Its a horrible situation isn't it? Despite my skepticism, it would be lovely to dream about the possibilities, but the execution of even the good ideas coming out of Lenton recently means that even if true, the possibilities of it being as awesome as it could be are just tiny.

Wow, Natfka's page turned from mildly credible into a complete joke.

Best thing about it is how he tries to defend his incompetence / click-bait-policy in the comment sections, vouching for the credibility of his 'scources' and denigrating petre's and others attemts to track the prediction accuracy.
http://natfka.blogspot.de/2014/01/a-new-direction-for-specialist-games.html

I'm feeling bad for people still visiting his page and looking for any value left in it.

How does the anecdote that some people won't buy any more 40k but might buy Epic diminish the suggestion that reintroducing Epic may cannibalize 40k sales? Since those people who won't buy any more 40k aren't going to buy any more 40k, so there are no sales there to cannibalize. It doesn't have anything to do with it.

You're right... some people might be interested in Epic who are no longer interested in 40k. Good point, if more than a little prosaic.

I have to say I would definitely take a look at a revised Epic, or Mordheim or Necromunda provided they didn't do the usual pricing crap (e.g. three stands for $30 when you need 12 stands or some such nonsense).

That said though, I don't believe this rumor for a second. They killed the games off last time because they didn't like that people were playing, say, Epic and not buying 40k figures instead. Why would they change that reasoning now? It takes a special kind of madman to think that your own games compete with each other.

 Bull0 wrote:
Since those people who won't buy any more 40k aren't going to buy any more 40k, so there are no sales there to cannibalize. It doesn't have anything to do with it.

That is exactly my point.

Some people may start an Epic army as their next project but then some people may start a WHFB army or a LOTR army, are these people cannabalising sales or are they buying other GW products?

But there are loads of people whose sales might be cannibalized. Kids who take a look at the two systems and say wow, I can build a whole army in Epic for the cost of a few squads in WH40k!

You argued that 40k sales "wouldn't be cannibalized" because there are some people who'd buy it who don't buy 40k. That's a really weird sort of thing to say. That's like saying getting hit by a train isn't dangerous, because some people survive.

 Palindrome wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
Since those people who won't buy any more 40k aren't going to buy any more 40k, so there are no sales there to cannibalize. It doesn't have anything to do with it.

Exactly.

And if they produce epic rules (that are also epic ) for all the armies they would probably make more money considering the people who would want to play an apocalypse-like game, but can't afford it.

 Bull0 wrote:
But there are loads of people whose sales might be cannibalized. Kids who take a look at the two systems and say wow, I can build a whole army in Epic for the cost of a few squads in WH40k!

You argued that 40k sales "wouldn't be cannibalized" because there are some people who'd buy it who don't buy 40k. That's a really weird sort of thing to say. That's like saying getting hit by a train isn't dangerous, because some people survive.

Exactly. I think the last version of Epic was 6mm. A lot of people would look at that and figure they can have larger battles with lots more figures, albeit smaller, for presumably less than the cost of 40k, and therefore will play Epic instead of 40k. Same argument with Necromunda and Mordheim - you'll look at that and buy let's say even 20 figures (for variety) and that's it, you won't buy the additional figures to play WHFB/40K, but just what you need for the game you play.

Hence they would either never do it, or price it so insane that nobody would bother.

If they did though I could see it being 15mm to compete with Flames of War, and honestly I could in theory see them do a Warmachine/Hordes type of game that's larger than WHFB/Fantasy in scale but not Inquisitor style. At least that way they would be competing again in those spaces instead of having nothing equivalent.

 Bull0 wrote:
But there are loads of people whose sales might be cannibalized. Kids who take a look at the two systems and say wow, I can build a whole army in Epic for the cost of a few squads in WH40k!

Thats a good thing though as GW will still be getting sales and if an Epic army is cheaper to build (which may or may not be the case, it certainly wasn't with Epic:Armaggedon) it may hold little Timmy's interest in wargaming long enough to also build up that 40K army that he probably would have bought a couple of boxes for and then forgotten like he would today. Epic was once one of GW's core games (before GW ever used that term) and I see no reason why it can;t fulfil that role again.

GW needs to diversify to reverse its declining revenues, Epic (or BFG) isn't a bad place to start and worrying about 'lost' core game sales is short sighted and counter productive when those 'lost' sales are still going to GW along with other sales that would otherwise have been going to Infinity or FoW or Warmachine or.......

Full disclosure, I would LOVE for Epic to make a comeback, and I even believe that it would probably make financial sense to do so, or at least be worth a punt on, but we know that GW is being run by monkeys in shoes right now so I just don't see it happening.

 Medium of Death wrote:

 Brother SRM wrote:
I like that the Naftka rumor about it being a new Epic starter box was "from two different sources" when literally all you need to do is send him the same rumor from two different email addresses and he'll still print it.

I don't know why but I laughed at that pretty hard. It's so true though.

Right after the laugh I clicked on a review from my favourite reviewer,when I was scrolling down.Now I need to watch it again.Curse you!

 Bull0 wrote:
Full disclosure, I would LOVE for Epic to make a comeback, and I even believe that it would probably make financial sense to do so, or at least be worth a punt on, but we know that GW is being run by monkeys in shoes right now so I just don't see it happening.

Why would you think Epic is cheaper to play? I remember the blisters being more than expensive than 40k in the 90's. a scorpion tank was $20, 4 dreads were $20, 4 war walkers $20, 5 support platforms $20, avatar and gateway $20, 3 falcons $20, 4 Vypers $20, 2 wave serpents $20, 1 revenant Titan $20, 1 vampire $25, 1 war host $30, phantom Titan $40, the list goes on. If we complain that a tactical marine isn't worth $4 in today's money, why would we think it would be cheaper now?

 Darkseid wrote:
Wow, Natfka's page turned from mildly credible into a complete joke.

Best thing about it is how he tries to defend his incompetence / click-bait-policy in the comment sections, vouching for the credibility of his 'scources' and denigrating petre's and others attemts to track the prediction accuracy.
http://natfka.blogspot.de/2014/01/a-new-direction-for-specialist-games.html

I'm feeling bad for people still visiting his page and looking for any value left in it.

I responded with the same thing I always respond to him with. If he, or anyone else, disputes something on my thread, they are free to bring it up and I'll update it as appropriate.

I'm pretty sure that towards the end of Epic some of the models were nearly worth their weight in gold (or silver at the very least). Thems were expensive models, and it'd only be worse now.

A revamp of Epic wouldn't get me in. Battlefleet Gothic might. Necromunda and Warhammer Quest absolutely would.

boyd wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
Full disclosure, I would LOVE for Epic to make a comeback, and I even believe that it would probably make financial sense to do so, or at least be worth a punt on, but we know that GW is being run by monkeys in shoes right now so I just don't see it happening.

Why would you think Epic is cheaper to play? I remember the blisters being more than expensive than 40k in the 90's. a scorpion tank was $20, 4 dreads were $20, 4 war walkers $20, 5 support platforms $20, avatar and gateway $20, 3 falcons $20, 4 Vypers $20, 2 wave serpents $20, 1 revenant Titan $20, 1 vampire $25, 1 war host $30, phantom Titan $40, the list goes on. If we complain that a tactical marine isn't worth $4 in today's money, why would we think it would be cheaper now?

I didn't say cheaper to play, but I remember people looking at the relative cost of the models between 40k and Epic and concluding that Epic was cheaper. I only have anecdotes around that but I do remember it being very visible. I'm sure to have a viable force and really get the most out of the game it's just as expensive. If your ambition was to collect a space marine company, you could do that for a fraction of the cost in Epic that you'd spend in 40k.

For a short period of time, I entertained the idea of buying epic models to make a smaller "travel sized" edition of 40k like they do with various classic board games. Something roughly the size of a large briefcase when folded up with the ranges as centimeters instead of inches.

I'd totally be up for EPIC again!

1) No way I can ever afford a Titan in 40K scale

2) Titans and other super heavies really don't belong in a 'regular' game of 40K anyway!