Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Bonde wrote:

Ah, it seems that I have misunderstood what a B&P game is. I guess my B&P game is Munchkin then, since that is just about the only board/card/tabletop game that I play after a beer or two. For me, a B&P game always include at least 4 people playing. If you are 4 players in a game of 40K with your respective armies, the game is going to take the most of a day to play.

That was just my take on B&P Games, as it's an American term and I'm British (We tend to favour chips over pretzels).

I guess it really depends on how you define B&P games, so I started a new thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/581984.page to discuss it.

I just can't imagine inviting any of my friends over for a night of Beer & Warhammer.

Herzlos wrote:

 Bonde wrote:

Ah, it seems that I have misunderstood what a B&P game is. I guess my B&P game is Munchkin then, since that is just about the only board/card/tabletop game that I play after a beer or two. For me, a B&P game always include at least 4 people playing. If you are 4 players in a game of 40K with your respective armies, the game is going to take the most of a day to play.

That was just my take on B&P Games, as it's an American term and I'm British (We tend to favour chips over pretzels).

I guess it really depends on how you define B&P games, so I started a new thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/581984.page to discuss it.

I just can't imagine inviting any of my friends over for a night of Beer & Warhammer.

Do it regulaly, the Carnage rules work realy well. especially if you add in death world rules as well. 4 people all going for 1 objective, with the chance to stitch friends up with lightning strikes and lavas eruptions. add bear and its a great night with friends. Suppose if you tend to take 40k a bit to seriously (most people on Dakka it seems) then its not a great rule set, but if you just want a good fun game give it a try.

As GW is now releasing a full Codex of super heavies, marketing it as a full legal Codex for standard games, it will become difficult to regain anything resembling game balance in future editions of 40k. They would have to actively ban this Codex. People might have been able to ignore Escalation, but with the Codex, GW is crossing a desperate line of no return.

 Kroothawk wrote:
As GW is now releasing a full Codex of super heavies, marketing it as a full legal Codex for standard games, it will become difficult to regain anything resembling game balance in future editions of 40k. They would have to actively ban this Codex. People might have been able to ignore Escalation, but with the Codex, GW is crossing a desperate line of no return.

You raise a really good point, and one I hadn't considered.

There were a lot of arguments here (and elsewhere) about the "legality" of Escalation, and whether it was something that required permission or just something you had to use and so on. Arguments could be made quite easily for both points of view, but it's far, far more black and white when it comes to an actual Codex. Assuming the Codex itself doesn't say "This is not meant for regular games, and should be used in conjunction with Escalation/with permission/special scenarios/etc.", then this is a regular Codex, meaning that the 360 point 6 HP scoring unit with a Strength D HTH weapon is a normal part of the game.

That's... bad for 40K.

I believe that releasing Imperial Knights as superheavies instead of monsterous creatures is in fact a sure sign that some kind of update to main wh40k rules is incoming.

GW seems to be set to include superheavies to regular games, as an antidote for overdoing monsterous creatures. Look at it this way: more HP for vehicles makes them more equal to MC's. Superheavies ignoring vehicle dmg table makes them more equal to MC (no sudden loss of capabilities). Still, MC's (and GC's) come slightly ahead in the race as their armor save is applied after wounds have been made to high toughness. The 4++ shield on the IK attempts to equalize this aspect too.

As for game balance, simply doubling the existing HP values for all the vehicles would actually make many of them more playable when compared to MC's, even if dmg table effects were to remain. Or, they can go the other way, simply remove vehicle dmg table altogether, and replace with a smaller exposion (or chance of one) when HP run out.

D-weapons could also be "fixed" rather easily. First of all, people tend to forget that a roll of 1 equals a save for non-vech models already. Then, further fixing would be to change D from strips all saves to degrades all saves: a -2 for saves, so that a 3+ would become 5+. Or perhaps -3. And the rest of the D effects could be retained as is.

So, I my view balance is not necessarily lost forever. And for the record, I think 6ed is, all in all, clearly better than 5th. Let's hope 7th is better still.

Timmon

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
As GW is now releasing a full Codex of super heavies, marketing it as a full legal Codex for standard games, it will become difficult to regain anything resembling game balance in future editions of 40k. They would have to actively ban this Codex. People might have been able to ignore Escalation, but with the Codex, GW is crossing a desperate line of no return.

You raise a really good point, and one I hadn't considered.

There were a lot of arguments here (and elsewhere) about the "legality" of Escalation, and whether it was something that required permission or just something you had to use and so on. Arguments could be made quite easily for both points of view, but it's far, far more black and white when it comes to an actual Codex. Assuming the Codex itself doesn't say "This is not meant for regular games, and should be used in conjunction with Escalation/with permission/special scenarios/etc.", then this is a regular Codex, meaning that the 360 point 6 HP scoring unit with a Strength D HTH weapon is a normal part of the game.

That's... bad for 40K.

How did you not consider it when I've been posting the exact same argument for months here on Dakka in threads where you're posting? When the anti-escalationists started spamming the boards I said it will be hysterical when GW starts releasing standard 40K codices with D weapons and other super-heavies. It's happening sooner than I thought. The next step I want is for Codex: IG to have a vehicle with a ranged D weapon. The silence will be deafening.

And then after a year has passed, noone remembers the resistance anymore, and ranged D weapons and super-heavies galore will be just as integral part of standard 40K as flyers, allies and fortifications.

 Therion wrote:
The silence will be deafening.

Er... no. Stupid rules don't stop being stupid just because some idiot developer tries to cram it down your throat. This is GW's Mega Damage Capacity, and they're handling it just as ineptly.

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Therion wrote:
The silence will be deafening.

Er... no. Stupid rules don't stop being stupid just because some idiot developer tries to cram it down your throat. This is GW's Mega Damage Capacity, and they're handling it just as ineptly.

That's one of the dumbest counter arguments you could possibly throw (and it gets thrown in response to super-heavies being legal every time) because there's simply nothing you can do outside your home games against your wife. Noone cares what you consider legal in your home games. That's your business.

I don't want to list all the 40K expansions, supplements or special rules that I think have had a worse effect on 40K than D weapons or super-heavies could ever have (because I've done it so many times already), but the truth is that random guys on the internet disagreeing with the direction which the game is taking won't change the direction. House ruling the core rule set so hard has never been a part of the 40K scene anywhere in the world, and as much resistance as the gamers are showing to every small change GW is trying to bring about, the biggest resistance is towards comping the core rules and going forward with widespread banning of legal units and armies.

It wouldn't even be hard to stop the scaling up of the game progression if people (as opposed to just a couple loudmouths) actually wanted to stop it. Just try to keep everyone from playing the upcoming 7th edition, and say that you only allow the 6th edition rulebook (with no supplements or expansions) and the codex armies that are 100% compatible with the rules printed therein. You don't need to house rule anything since it means super-heavies and D weapons are automatically banned since you can't find the rules for them anywhere. You can run the Screamerstar and Jetseer Council from dusk till dawn. Yeah, it's not going to happen.

Once 7th launches everyone except a few angry basement dwellers will be on board, and a year later noone remembers the guys who were left in the basement.

 Therion wrote:

And then after a year has passed, noone remembers the resistance anymore, and ranged D weapons and super-heavies galore will be just as integral part of standard 40K as flyers, allies and fortifications.

And just like it happened with the advent of fliers, allies and fortifications, GW will loose another batch of players because of it.

PhantomViper wrote:

 Therion wrote:

And then after a year has passed, noone remembers the resistance anymore, and ranged D weapons and super-heavies galore will be just as integral part of standard 40K as flyers, allies and fortifications.

And just like it happened with the advent of fliers, allies and fortifications, GW will loose another batch of players because of it.

Absolutely guaranteed. Also absolutely irrelevant as long as they can keep bringing in new customers. They already sold me a dozen armies of massive scale. They don't need me.

The biggest misconception that you see on gaming forums is that people think you're supposed to keep playing the same game for your entire life. Games keep evolving, changing and adapting to the times. You don't like what the game is becoming, you can move on. The manufacturers thought about you possibly leaving, and changed the game anyway, because the game isn't for you anymore. It's for the next batch of gamers.

 Therion wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 Therion wrote:

And then after a year has passed, noone remembers the resistance anymore, and ranged D weapons and super-heavies galore will be just as integral part of standard 40K as flyers, allies and fortifications.

And just like it happened with the advent of fliers, allies and fortifications, GW will loose another batch of players because of it.

Absolutely guaranteed. Also absolutely irrelevant as long as they can keep bringing in new customers. They already sold me a dozen armies of massive scale. They don't need me.

The biggest misconception that you see on gaming forums is that people think you're supposed to keep playing the same game for your entire life. Games keep evolving, changing and adapting to the times. You don't like what the game is becoming, you can move on. The manufacturers thought about you possibly leaving, and changed the game anyway, because the game isn't for you anymore. It's for the next batch of gamers.

Only if they bring in new customers at a suitable rate to compensate for the loss of old customers. Which going by their annual reports, they aren't. And also ignoring the adage that it costs 10x as much to bring in a new customer as to keep an old customer. You know, the ones who already like the system and spend money.

Herzlos wrote:

 Therion wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 Therion wrote:

And then after a year has passed, noone remembers the resistance anymore, and ranged D weapons and super-heavies galore will be just as integral part of standard 40K as flyers, allies and fortifications.

And just like it happened with the advent of fliers, allies and fortifications, GW will loose another batch of players because of it.

Absolutely guaranteed. Also absolutely irrelevant as long as they can keep bringing in new customers. They already sold me a dozen armies of massive scale. They don't need me.

The biggest misconception that you see on gaming forums is that people think you're supposed to keep playing the same game for your entire life. Games keep evolving, changing and adapting to the times. You don't like what the game is becoming, you can move on. The manufacturers thought about you possibly leaving, and changed the game anyway, because the game isn't for you anymore. It's for the next batch of gamers.

Only if they bring in new customers at a suitable rate to compensate for the loss of old customers. Which going by their annual reports, they aren't. And also ignoring the adage that it costs 10x as much to bring in a new customer as to keep an old customer. You know, the ones who already like the system and spend money.

That's just a spin you can put on it to make you feel more important. They could very well be doing just as bad as they are doing now if they tried to cater more for the 30-40 year old nerds than the younger generation of new hobby inductees. They have a lot of bad business practises that have nothing to do with 'not caring about the old gamers'.

 Therion wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 Therion wrote:

And then after a year has passed, noone remembers the resistance anymore, and ranged D weapons and super-heavies galore will be just as integral part of standard 40K as flyers, allies and fortifications.

And just like it happened with the advent of fliers, allies and fortifications, GW will loose another batch of players because of it.

Absolutely guaranteed. Also absolutely irrelevant as long as they can keep bringing in new customers. They already sold me a dozen armies of massive scale. They don't need me.

The biggest misconception that you see on gaming forums is that people think you're supposed to keep playing the same game for your entire life. Games keep evolving, changing and adapting to the times. You don't like what the game is becoming, you can move on. The manufacturers thought about you possibly leaving, and changed the game anyway, because the game isn't for you anymore. It's for the next batch of gamers.

You're talking as if all is well in GW-land and like they aren't loosing sales and revenue...

Miniature wargaming isn't a game, it is a hobby and you generally keep your hobbies going for a while. But you are right, I and many others like me, don't like what the game of 40k has become, so we've moved on to other games in the same hobby. The problem for GW is that it seems like there is allot less people coming in to pick up from where we've left...

So all these "cool" additions have caused a large chunk of their player base to leave, and they are failing to capture sufficient new blood to cover for those leaving, and yet they stay the course with even more bloat? Yeah... that will work.

I'm not a huge fan of internet backslapping but Therion has made some cracking posts in this thread, last couple of pages especially.

'Absolutely guaranteed. Also absolutely irrelevant as long as they can keep bringing in new customers. They already sold me a dozen armies of massive scale. They don't need me.

The biggest misconception that you see on gaming forums is that people think you're supposed to keep playing the same game for your entire life. Games keep evolving, changing and adapting to the times. You don't like what the game is becoming, you can move on. The manufacturers thought about you possibly leaving, and changed the game anyway, because the game isn't for you anymore. It's for the next batch of gamers'

Is a brilliant point.

 Kroothawk wrote:
As GW is now releasing a full Codex of super heavies, marketing it as a full legal Codex for standard games, it will become difficult to regain anything resembling game balance in future editions of 40k. They would have to actively ban this Codex. People might have been able to ignore Escalation, but with the Codex, GW is crossing a desperate line of no return.

And that's the point. Conspiracy but I think they had a hunch that Escalation would not be received well and the Knights are a way to say "too bad, it's part of the game so deal with it". TOs ban super heavies but now you can't as easily because you'd be telling a Knights player they can't participate and once you get to banning one army why not ban Eldar or Tau? You wouldn't do that, so now super heavies will be allowed at tournaments.

It's deviously brilliant.

 Therion wrote:
And then after a year has passed, noone remembers the resistance anymore, and ranged D weapons and super-heavies galore will be just as integral part of standard 40K as flyers, allies and fortifications.

If no one remembers the resistance, it'll be because the people who didn't like it just moved on to other games and sales will be down even further year on year. That said... I don't think you're correct. People who didn't like allies and fliers still largely don't like allies and fliers and the resistence is still there almost two years into the edition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Therion wrote:


Absolutely guaranteed. Also absolutely irrelevant as long as they can keep bringing in new customers. They already sold me a dozen armies of massive scale. They don't need me.

Which they don't seem to be doing. Subjectively, other games are moving in and even surpassing some GW games in sales via the ICV2 sales lists and objectively their unit sales are down according to their own stock filings. I'd offer that the gaming public is responding (albeit slowly) to their wide variety of bad for the consumer policies.

The Division Of Joy wrote:
I'm not a huge fan of internet backslapping but Therion has made some cracking posts in this thread, last couple of pages especially.

'Absolutely guaranteed. Also absolutely irrelevant as long as they can keep bringing in new customers. They already sold me a dozen armies of massive scale. They don't need me.

The biggest misconception that you see on gaming forums is that people think you're supposed to keep playing the same game for your entire life. Games keep evolving, changing and adapting to the times. You don't like what the game is becoming, you can move on. The manufacturers thought about you possibly leaving, and changed the game anyway, because the game isn't for you anymore. It's for the next batch of gamers'

Is a brilliant point.

I have been considering for some time that perhaps it wouldn't be a terrible thing if some bright things, around the world, got together and created their own, tournament friendly, version of 40k as a living online ruleset, taking each release from GW and hammering them into workable things for a balanced 40k tournament.

If GW won't create the sort of rules we want, then perhaps the community just starts producing them, assuming the legal vulture squads aren't deployed. So, the Adepticon ruling council and some other folks, volunteers and tourney organizers from around the world take 40k, trim it back to the roots and start working out a more balanced game, perhaps bringing back some 5th edition rules for speed of play, adding an extra hull point to each vehicle in 6th, a sensible terrain set up system, culling of random elements etc.

I would certainly be eager to adopt it.

 Therion wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 Therion wrote:

And then after a year has passed, noone remembers the resistance anymore, and ranged D weapons and super-heavies galore will be just as integral part of standard 40K as flyers, allies and fortifications.

And just like it happened with the advent of fliers, allies and fortifications, GW will loose another batch of players because of it.

Absolutely guaranteed. Also absolutely irrelevant as long as they can keep bringing in new customers.

Exept their numbers have shown, for many years now, that they cant.

 Therion wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

Only if they bring in new customers at a suitable rate to compensate for the loss of old customers. Which going by their annual reports, they aren't. And also ignoring the adage that it costs 10x as much to bring in a new customer as to keep an old customer. You know, the ones who already like the system and spend money.

That's just a spin you can put on it to make you feel more important. They could very well be doing just as bad as they are doing now if they tried to cater more for the 30-40 year old nerds than the younger generation of new hobby inductees. They have a lot of bad business practises that have nothing to do with 'not caring about the old gamers'.

Not really, I don't feel any more important. Maybe GW would be doing just as badly if they were trying to focus on retaining the veteran players, but their current approach (which is doing badly) flies in the face of conventional wisdom (existing players are more profitable than new players), anecdotal evidence (there are plenty of older gamers still spending lots on games, but it's no longer going to GW) and demographic statistics (30-40 year old gamers generally have a disposable gaming income far in excess of gamers half their age).

It's also worth noting that I've said nothing about them dropping focus on new customers; there's no reason they can't do things that benefit everyone (good quality rules, internal/external balance).

They also have a pretty schizophrenic approach towards customers, in that they seem to be focusing on this new customer churn and burn, whilst selling things aimed at veterans (LE books, £85 figures, Forge World).

Anyway, back on topic. A lot of people currently playing don't remember or weren't there for the rules before Flyers and Fortifications were included, but there's still a lot of people don't like them and don't use them. There's certainly been minimal uptake for flyers, fortifications or Escalation at my local club, presumably because there's this unwritten gentlemans agreement that they are too overpowered to be fair.

 Therion wrote:
The biggest misconception that you see on gaming forums is that people think you're supposed to keep playing the same game for your entire life. Games keep evolving, changing and adapting to the times. You don't like what the game is becoming, you can move on. The manufacturers thought about you possibly leaving, and changed the game anyway, because the game isn't for you anymore. It's for the next batch of gamers.

That line of thinking doesn't allow for the type of person who wants to keep playing the same game, yet is constantly put off by the increasingly bizarre changes wrought by the company making the game.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Conspiracy but I think they had a hunch that Escalation would not be received well and the Knights are a way to say "too bad, it's part of the game so deal with it".

This comes back to GW's "they'll buy what we make" rather than "we'll make what they buy" attitude towards its customer base.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
I'm not a huge fan of internet backslapping but Therion has made some cracking posts in this thread, last couple of pages especially.

'Absolutely guaranteed. Also absolutely irrelevant as long as they can keep bringing in new customers. They already sold me a dozen armies of massive scale. They don't need me.

The biggest misconception that you see on gaming forums is that people think you're supposed to keep playing the same game for your entire life. Games keep evolving, changing and adapting to the times. You don't like what the game is becoming, you can move on. The manufacturers thought about you possibly leaving, and changed the game anyway, because the game isn't for you anymore. It's for the next batch of gamers'

Is a brilliant


I have been considering for some time that perhaps it wouldn't be a terrible thing if some bright things, around the world, got together and created their own, tournament friendly, version of 40k as a living online ruleset, taking each release from GW and hammering them into workable things for a balanced 40k tournament.

If GW won't create the sort of rules we want, then perhaps the community just starts producing them, assuming the legal vulture squads aren't deployed. So, the Adepticon ruling council and some other folks, volunteers and tourney organizers from around the world take 40k, trim it back to the roots and start working out a more balanced game, perhaps bringing back some 5th edition rules for speed of play, adding an extra hull point to each vehicle in 6th, a sensible terrain set up system, culling of random elements etc.

I would certainly be eager to adopt it.

As would I, gw have lost their way, and now the Pandora's box has been opened, I fear there's no way to close it again, might be worth just making our own 40k. I have been playing 30k mainly as it seems less daft than 40k. Dare I say that as well as making better models than gw forgeworld now makes better rules?

For the life of me, i can not see how any one can get exited over a new edition, a new starter box (which tend to be better value) certainly, but a new edition?. I have no hopes what so ever that the introduction of 7th edition will do anything for the game and that is because it is never the editions that cause the maihem, its the CODEXES. The unit that has the 2++ rerollable save is the problem, not the fact that there are invulnerable saves or rerolls in the game, and that 2++ was introduced in a codex, not in the BRB.

Regarding balance, 5th at its worst was nothing like what 6th has been since it started. A stale meta is the pinacle of invalance, take Hearthstone for instance, it has had the same set of cards for what it seems ages now, its meta however is constantly shifting, why?, because there is no alternative that is flat out superior to everthing else on the field, everthing has effective counters and those in turn are effective against a wide range of things on their own right, Thus meta instead of being stale is constantly shifting according to the trends followed by the players, WITH OUT the introduction of new cards. 40K on the other hand is rock solid set on 2 or 3 builds and that is it, until a new broken unit is introduced, the meta breaks down and then crystalises again on a given set of builds.

I have little hope 7th will do anything to aleviate this, only proper internal and external codex balance will do anything to address it and that simply has not been GW for a while now.

the only bad thing in 6th was the hp on tanks but dont think it was that bad. 5th was a mess cant move and shoot no snap fire so maybe 7th will be an improvement on 6th. I am looking forward to a new starter box always some good models in there and being an ork player be goo dto get some new ork sculpts.

Yes Gw have took the p*ss with finecast , price hikes and so on and the advent of d weapons there current guises and the super heavys being part of any 40k army with out much of a limit but have to say this for them there plastic kits and models are still fantastic apart from space marines. so I am looking forward to at least seeing the new box and the new rule book but with any new release there is always that element of dread . Thats what happens when you get old you remember the old days to fondly.

bit81 wrote:
the only bad thing in 6th was the hp on tanks but dont think it was that bad. 5th was a mess cant move and shoot no snap fire so maybe 7th will be an improvement on 6th. I am looking forward to a new starter box always some good models in there and being an ork player be goo dto get some new ork sculpts.

Yes Gw have took the p*ss with finecast , price hikes and so on and the advent of d weapons there current guises and the super heavys being part of any 40k army with out much of a limit but have to say this for them there plastic kits and models are still fantastic apart from space marines. so I am looking forward to at least seeing the new box and the new rule book but with any new release there is always that element of dread . Thats what happens when you get old you remember the old days to fondly.

No mate, you are flat out wrong, HP have nothing inherently bad in them selves, the problem is not the HP rules, the problem is that they drastically reduced the utility and survivability of vehicles, while at the same time not reducing the point costs accordingly and that is codex balance not BRB. There is nothing wrong with 1 army having a standard issue rifle that is s7 ap2, the problem comes when that gun costs the same as a bolter that is s4 ap5, that is what they did with vehicles, the damage they can soak went drastically down, specially compared to MCs and their point costs remained the same. When you handle codexes like this, there is no BRB you could ever writte that will fix it for you.

I'm still surprised at the state of 40K today, and what GW is most likely going to do to it with the release of 6.5/7th.

I don't know why I'm surprised, but I am.

Therion wrote:How did you not consider it when I've been posting the exact same argument for months here on Dakka in threads where you're posting? When the anti-escalationists started spamming the boards I said it will be hysterical when GW starts releasing standard 40K codices with D weapons and other super-heavies.

It is not just one Codex having one super heavy unit and/or D strength weapon. It is a Codex consisting ONLY of super heavies with strength D weapons. this is an escalation of escalation.

Therion wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 Therion wrote:

And then after a year has passed, noone remembers the resistance anymore, and ranged D weapons and super-heavies galore will be just as integral part of standard 40K as flyers, allies and fortifications.

And just like it happened with the advent of fliers, allies and fortifications, GW will loose another batch of players because of it.

Absolutely guaranteed. Also absolutely irrelevant as long as they can keep bringing in new customers.

GW has given up new customers a long time ago. No marketing, entry cost getting higher and higher. And if you finally have bought and assembled an army of 2000$, a new guy buys a super heavy and roflstomps you with nothing you can do. GW is power shrinking and beyond the tipping point now.

BTW people should make a poll in their gaming groups, how many veterans are still playing 40k without any house rules, esp. without prohibiting Escalation etc.. My guess is that less than 25% of veterans would allow Escalation or a full Knight army in regular games. As someone said, 40k is not a game anymore, it is a desperate and escalating arms race.

 Kroothawk wrote:

Therion wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:

 Therion wrote:

And then after a year has passed, noone remembers the resistance anymore, and ranged D weapons and super-heavies galore will be just as integral part of standard 40K as flyers, allies and fortifications.

And just like it happened with the advent of fliers, allies and fortifications, GW will loose another batch of players because of it.

Absolutely guaranteed. Also absolutely irrelevant as long as they can keep bringing in new customers.

GW has given up new customers a long time ago. No marketing, entry cost getting higher and higher. And if you finally have bought and assembled an army of 2000$, a new guy buys a super heavy and roflstomps you with nothing you can do. GW is power shrinking and beyond the tipping point now.

I agree with Kroothawk. It is often cited that GW is marketing primarily to a new player base while eschewing its veterans, but then I see the sale of LE books and other fluff-driven supplements for 40k and I can only assume these are purchased by the more die-hard fans and not by the new players.

It seems to me that GW is coming up with as many ways to get money out of its existing player base as possible, raising prices up to the edge of a purchasing cliff, producing fluff supplements with minor rules, adding in escalation rules to the core game (seems to be the best way to get existing players to keep buying- give them bigger units to purchase to up their game to a whole new level), the Imperial Knights as a regular army.

I think this stuff is all for the existing players.

 Therion wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
As GW is now releasing a full Codex of super heavies, marketing it as a full legal Codex for standard games, it will become difficult to regain anything resembling game balance in future editions of 40k. They would have to actively ban this Codex. People might have been able to ignore Escalation, but with the Codex, GW is crossing a desperate line of no return.

You raise a really good point, and one I hadn't considered.

There were a lot of arguments here (and elsewhere) about the "legality" of Escalation, and whether it was something that required permission or just something you had to use and so on. Arguments could be made quite easily for both points of view, but it's far, far more black and white when it comes to an actual Codex. Assuming the Codex itself doesn't say "This is not meant for regular games, and should be used in conjunction with Escalation/with permission/special scenarios/etc.", then this is a regular Codex, meaning that the 360 point 6 HP scoring unit with a Strength D HTH weapon is a normal part of the game.

That's... bad for 40K.

How did you not consider it when I've been posting the exact same argument for months here on Dakka in threads where you're posting? When the anti-escalationists started spamming the boards I said it will be hysterical when GW starts releasing standard 40K codices with D weapons and other super-heavies. It's happening sooner than I thought. The next step I want is for Codex: IG to have a vehicle with a ranged D weapon. The silence will be deafening.

And then after a year has passed, noone remembers the resistance anymore, and ranged D weapons and super-heavies galore will be just as integral part of standard 40K as flyers, allies and fortifications.

The tactics threads about knights are bringing this arguments up again, with people expressing that Imperial Knights should be banned just like escalation because they're "grossly overpowered." It's getting kind of absurd. Banning Flyers, Fortifications, Super-Heavies, Imperial Knights....what's next? Dataslates because they allow forces that break FoC? The mindset seems to me that they want to ban anything that wasn't legal and normal in late 4th, early 5th edition, and are instituting a sort of edition freeze, except for minor rules tweaks. And I don't think I can fully agree with that mindset. So I'm hopeful that this rumor is true, because it should solve the arguing, and maybe get this mentality out the door so people can move on and be productive. And not try to *ban* anything new that they don't like.

 Accolade wrote:
I think this stuff is all for the existing players.

It's not for the existing players, as much a way of getting money out of existing players.

 kir44n wrote:
The tactics threads about knights are bringing this arguments up again, with people expressing that Imperial Knights should be banned just like escalation because they're "grossly overpowered." It's getting kind of absurd. Banning Flyers, Fortifications, Super-Heavies, Imperial Knights....what's next? Dataslates because they allow forces that break FoC? The mindset seems to me that they want to ban anything that wasn't legal and normal in late 4th, early 5th edition, and are instituting a sort of edition freeze, except for minor rules tweaks.

Guess why? Because most were written with no respect for game balance. Introducing flyers while noone has anti-air weapons, just so you could buy a roflstomp win. Allowing titans and super heavies, so you could buy a roflstomp win.
There are not enough TFGs to sustain sales and not enough opponents happy with being roflstomped. There is a reason, why the flood of new Codices, new supplements and new data slades did not translate into higher revenue, because it is not a balanced game anymore..