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warboss wrote: Is there a time jump in the storyline with that being some sort of more advanced future Scopedog? I'll be eventually picking up the VOTOMS series on bluray but haven't watched it in many years. I'm surprised they didn't shrink the head if they were doing a partial redesign. I'm not personally a fan of it regardless FWIW.
From what I remember of it (it wasn't that good), storyline wise it's not very clear where it's set, but the story revolves around an illegal fight ring and their pilots, so IIRC they were regular designs modded for close fighting.
As for a possible redesign... the head will stay. It's way too iconic not to, I think. Plus, you already have other designs and advanced designs that do away with it. Even back in the original series you had the Berserga and the Standing Tortoise (which is totally not a HG Black Adder, no siree), but even the Fatty head design is different, and in other series you had the Blood Sucker from The Last Red Shoulder or the Busy Crab from Big Battle, that had a clear canopy.
The important thing, though, is that all look that way for a reason, namely that the pilot need to be somewhere (exactly like HG, even though Gears are a bit bigger), and each design achieves that in their own way.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/09 07:40:06
I agree that the head is iconic but western media gaking all over what was previously considered iconic just to put their own ultramodern divisive mark on IPs has left me somewhat jaded. I had never made the connection with the Black Adder. Huh...
2020/10/10 16:41:49
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] General Discussion Thread
warboss wrote: I've been unexpectedly on a VOTOMS kick recently and an important question came up and I figured I'd informally poll the thread. Which of these two iconic designs is your favorite and why?
the venerable Scopedog (shown here in the classic Red Shoulder Custom variation)...or the iconic Heavy Gear Hunter?
Good question. For me both have merits, but on the balance I prefer VOTOMS, but the Hunter's feet, with exposed wheels is in interesting detail.
warboss wrote: If you had asked me a week ago (or any time in the past 25 years!), I'd have reflexively answered the Hunter but my opinion has recently changed. I still love the HG universe and the rest of the accompanying gears much more than that of VOTOMS but I have to hand it to the original Scopedog in that head to head comparison. Other than a plain and somewhat empty back in its stock configuration, I think the original design is very nice and my asthetic gripe is easily fixed with the various parachute packs, space mover thruster rigs, etc. I still prefer the look of the V-engine and loveably named buttplate but the various additons to the back come close enough in that regard. None of this is new but my resurgent interest in the design made me consider it more from a practical perspective and I have a new found respect for it; the Hunter just isn't practical as a physical real world design and mostly only useful for monopose scale miniatures. We see it from the various generations of miniatures that can only be posed in a certain way because parts physically overlap. While I don't think the company behind the defunct HGA pc game ever planned on using it as is, they did bring up a good point in that the original simply didn't work in the digital game realm either if you're using realistic physics/materials and the same would be true if the HG universe ever made it to live action film/tv as well. The Scopedog, on the other hand, is completely practical and poseable in that regard with the proof being decades of quality toys authentic to that 1983 original design. Even cheap gashapon like the ones I own have a range of motion that the Hunter would never be able to achieve without a significant redesign.
Thoughts? I had never previously ascribed any weight to that factor in the past but it really put the Scopedog over the top for me recently as I rediscovered how well designed it was while looking at youtube reviews of various Scopedog toys and model kits. It's likely that we all have our own priorities and preferences in this regard but I'm surprised that my opinion changed after all these years and specifically because of the reason behind the change.
As you know... I've been rebuilding my RAFM Gears to more closely fit my vision for the Gate Walker universe CASE suits. And, if I ever bring a line of miniatures to market, then I would want to address the poseability issue of the RAFM sculpts. They're great examples of the sculptors art, but not mechanically well thought out.
And look what arrived at my place.
Ashley
--
http://panther6actual.blogspot.co.uk/
2020/10/10 17:52:07
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] General Discussion Thread
Cool! You'll have to let me know how poseable they are (both pre and post assembly) as I'm curious how those work. Unlike with western models, I'm usually quite amazed with what Japanese kits can accomplish in that regard. FWIW, the gashapon I posted further up the thread is a bit bigger in scale and softer in detail (the 85mm Sunrise one below).
I mistakenly thought it was roughly 40k scale but that's more accurately the 1/60 model (assuming 6ft=30mm as the baseline).
2020/10/10 18:06:14
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] General Discussion Thread
I see this, and I wonder why this is still not a thing for Heavy Gear. These aren't any bigger than Mammoth/Red Bull minis, and the scale would allow so much better detail, poses and weapon options. And the game could be easily tuned for more detailed, 5v5 gear plus some infantry, making it relatively inexpensive and visually amazing.
I see this, and I wonder why this is still not a thing for Heavy Gear. These aren't any bigger than Mammoth/Red Bull minis, and the scale would allow so much better detail, poses and weapon options. And the game could be easily tuned for more detailed, 5v5 gear plus some infantry, making it relatively inexpensive and visually amazing.
Agreed. I had some wild hopes that maybe we'd get a larger scale and skirmish rules back before nublitz was even announced but obviously that didn't happen. My next hope was for the RPG that collected money and iirc delivered almost nothing. The votoms are about 25% too big for a 30mm infantry scale but gears are about midway between mine and the 1/60th scale models (4.3m height for a hunter vs 3.8m for a scopedog). I suppose there is nothing stopping us from doing it ourselves and that's why I bought them in the first place. I've been toying around with rescaling and printing the Dropzone Commander free downloadable buildings for a themed game at the FLGS when/if I make my return for the first time in 2020. Just a simple beer and pretzels walk up and play game of VOTOMS vs dollar store toys and prepainted minis I own. Think the Earth Defense Force videogame meets the Rifts RPG apocalypse where portals are opening across the city spewing out various monsters (not just bugs). That's been a part of my resurgent interest in VOTOMS and specifically scopedogs. I don't know if anything will ever come of it as I have to research how much the printing costs for the buildings will be but if I do it then I'll definitely take pictures.
2020/10/11 09:26:45
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] General Discussion Thread
I was unprepared for the amount of Scopedog in this thread. I really need to get around to rewatching VOTOMS again now.
Also, I've started a new Heavy Gear log to catalog my adventures here for anyone interested.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Same here regarding rewatching. I'm considering getting the new bluray complete collection as I've only ever seen the original ova many years ago. The only reason I haven't ordered it already is because I've read some complaints about the transfer/technical quality.
2020/10/11 14:44:57
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] General Discussion Thread
I see this, and I wonder why this is still not a thing for Heavy Gear. These aren't any bigger than Mammoth/Red Bull minis, and the scale would allow so much better detail, poses and weapon options. And the game could be easily tuned for more detailed, 5v5 gear plus some infantry, making it relatively inexpensive and visually amazing.
Agreed. I had some wild hopes that maybe we'd get a larger scale and skirmish rules back before nublitz was even announced but obviously that didn't happen. My next hope was for the RPG that collected money and iirc delivered almost nothing.
Yeah it's sad that the RPG plans went nowhere, but I don't think it would have been very successful anyways. Things are a lot different now. Back when Heavy Gear first came out, its production values were way ahead of most other RPGs in terms of graphic design and art assets. Even the big games like AD&D were pretty plain, design wise, and that really made Dream Pod 9 stand out. Most modern RPGs have caught up or exceeded this level of production design and INFINITY seems to have grabbed the anime-esque tabletop/RPG market. It wouldn't stand out to new players and the old players would have very high standards on all fronts.
On the wargaming scale of things, Heavy Gear sits in an oddball space. It sits between 10mm and 15mm scales (though the dynamic scaling does odd things and you end up with 10mm light gears and 15mm support gears). I'd almost suggest a scale refresh at true 15mm scale, where you could have individually based infantry, gears closer to RAFM size and everything fits nicely in with the common 15mm terrain. But I know scale changes were unpopular in the past, so an entirely new, complimentary game is probably better.
I really think a 32mm skirmish scale could revitalize interest in the game. As I mentioned, 5v5 (gears) wouldn't be horribly expensive to get into and you could easily start with the big 4 from North and South with enough options in the pack to build many variants. People who already have 32mm terrain have an easy in and if they want games of larger scope, well, there's the Blitz! scale for that.
Yeah it's sad that the RPG plans went nowhere, but I don't think it would have been very successful anyways. Things are a lot different now. Back when Heavy Gear first came out, its production values were way ahead of most other RPGs in terms of graphic design and art assets. Even the big games like AD&D were pretty plain, design wise, and that really made Dream Pod 9 stand out. Most modern RPGs have caught up or exceeded this level of production design and INFINITY seems to have grabbed the anime-esque tabletop/RPG market. It wouldn't stand out to new players and the old players would have very high standards on all fronts.
Totally agree. I was someone coming from Palladium games and (to a much lesser extent since I didn't play them) D&D2e and the ultramodern layout and obviously color created albeit printed in B&W art was a big draw for me. Most of the last two decades have been relatively lackluster in that regard with Dp9 trying (or being able to afford) an eye catching layout and decent art only with a few products (the Nucoal/Southern Blitz big books). As for the success of the rpg, I think there are degrees of success. To borrow a quote from the matrix... there are levels of survival we are prepared to accept. Just replace survival with success and budget according. I don't have a clue what type of rules they were planning to use as the whole "plan" (if you could call it that) seemed half baked and I didn't pledge. Were they planning on coming out with their own independent ruleset built from scratch? Or were they planning on tweaking the old silhouette system? I don't see the benefit in doing the latter as it would just be more efficient to just update the timeline/fluff/equipment parts and print on demand; the problem is you are not really offering much to returning superfan players who likely have the orginal version. Creating your own system from the ground up is both time intensive and expensive to do properly and I didn't feel that would happen for a variety of reasons (number of folks involved, previous efforts, reliance on crowdfunding before any real work was done, etc). About the only thing left (and probably what I would have chosen if I were the benign overlord of all things HG) would be to pick a system with an established compatible ruleset that is open for use by others and then publish a smaller flavor book with rules only for what isn't covered in the core rules (like Savage Rifts did for example). I'd have mainly used existing classic art/layout and have the book ready to download/print POD for the initial crowdunding with the main stretch goals being updated art/layout for hopefully a full retail release. Admittedly that's typed now with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight but I was pretty much thinking the same thing years ago.
On the wargaming scale of things, Heavy Gear sits in an oddball space. It sits between 10mm and 15mm scales (though the dynamic scaling does odd things and you end up with 10mm light gears and 15mm support gears). I'd almost suggest a scale refresh at true 15mm scale, where you could have individually based infantry, gears closer to RAFM size and everything fits nicely in with the common 15mm terrain. But I know scale changes were unpopular in the past, so an entirely new, complimentary game is probably better.
I really think a 32mm skirmish scale could revitalize interest in the game. As I mentioned, 5v5 (gears) wouldn't be horribly expensive to get into and you could easily start with the big 4 from North and South with enough options in the pack to build many variants. People who already have 32mm terrain have an easy in and if they want games of larger scope, well, there's the Blitz! scale for that.
Yes and no (respectively and respectfully!). For the 15mm idea, I think that time has passed and so has the momentum/good will of the existing fanbase and rules. I don't see it working now even pre-pandemic personally but I'll admit that it's just a pure guess/opinion not backed up by anything concrete. As one of the staunchest critics of the original scale change from blitz, I'd have had no problem with it assuming it had been done with a skirmish version of nublitz prior to the plastic releases. I'm as grognardy as they come but even I think 20+ years of tactical/blitz scale is plenty of value; the problem with the first change is that is was being done 2-3 years after the intro of the line while also invalidating the printed products at roughly the same time. Literally everything I bought (and I was a completionist at the time with 90%+ of both the books and northern minis) was going to be incompatible with everything going forward after only a couple of years.
As for 32mm, I think you're wrong about the affordability. The average gear would be bigger than striders/gearstriders that currently cost $35-55 and getting an actual single strider would likely be CEF Overlord hovertank ($100+) cost. I don't see a new player to a franchise in decline investing what would be necessary for the average 5v5 gear game size default. YMMV but personally I don't see anything bigger than RAFM working economically for either them or the playerbase. I'd love to see it but I don't think that I'd even buy in for more than just one of each of the core northern gears (and a King Cobra!).
In a nutshell, I think that DP9 and HG are in a damned if you do/damned if you don't situation/grave entirely of their own making. It's not completely hopeless but I don't see that changing until literally the entire IP changes hands completely.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/11 16:25:47
2020/10/11 19:06:24
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] General Discussion Thread
John Prins wrote: Yeah it's sad that the RPG plans went nowhere, but I don't think it would have been very successful anyways. Things are a lot different now. Back when Heavy Gear first came out, its production values were way ahead of most other RPGs in terms of graphic design and art assets. Even the big games like AD&D were pretty plain, design wise, and that really made Dream Pod 9 stand out. Most modern RPGs have caught up or exceeded this level of production design and INFINITY seems to have grabbed the anime-esque tabletop/RPG market. It wouldn't stand out to new players and the old players would have very high standards on all fronts.
Although it's true that HG would not grab as much attention currently for its production values, there is still a market for good sci-fi RPGs with a mecha component, as things like the Lancer RPG can certainly attest (having gotten more than $430k on Kickstarter)... but they have managed their (quite long) alpha and beta phases very professionally and now the tactical part of the game purrs like a well oiled engine.
I wouldn't trust the current DP9 to reach that level. By a long shot.
Still tempted to write a Heavy Gear Lancer mod, though.
I would personally put a "regular mini scale" trooper Gear at a size similar to that of a Contemptor Dreadnought.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/11 19:10:03
2020/10/11 21:01:35
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] General Discussion Thread
Albertorius wrote: I am more or less confident by now that the only way I'll have a 28mm Gear is by designing it myself, unfortunately.
Which might be the incentive to do it, I guess >_>
Probably though I may eventually be of help there. When I last checked (a long time ago), that pre-blitz garage kit large scale Kodiak was almost Inquisitor scale (54mm).
Automatically Appended Next Post: All this Hunter talk got me thinking about my old 3d model project and I decided to do some work on it over the weekend again. Instead of trying to create a faithful nuBlitz XMG, I decided instead to just try and create a reimagined stock hunter. It's not particularly different from my prior attempts (I'm very limited in my poses unless I want him flipping the bird or doing a cowboy victory dance) but I globally thickened up the model to hopefully fix some of the printing errors I got in my first two prints (broken antenna, missing pieces behind the eye lens, etc).
I previously printed my gears at an intended height of 30mm to the top of the sensor head but I don't know if I should test this out at RAFM scale (40mm?). I suppose I could just properly support the model and do both in one print with a resize. Just a quick graphic for the three potential scales. I didn't apply any modifier to the Hunter for Blitz scale and just showed it as is for 1/144 for a 4.3m gear (measured to the top of the rocket pod).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/12 23:49:40
warboss wrote: Probably though I may eventually be of help there. When I last checked (a long time ago), that pre-blitz garage kit large scale Kodiak was almost Inquisitor scale (54mm).
All this Hunter talk got me thinking about my old 3d model project and I decided to do some work on it over the weekend again. Instead of trying to create a faithful nuBlitz XMG, I decided instead to just try and create a reimagined stock hunter. It's not particularly different from my prior attempts (I'm very limited in my poses unless I want him flipping the bird or doing a cowboy victory dance) but I globally thickened up the model to hopefully fix some of the printing errors I got in my first two prints (broken antenna, missing pieces behind the eye lens, etc).
[snip]
I previously printed my gears at an intended height of 30mm to the top of the sensor head but I don't know if I should test this out at RAFM scale (40mm?). I suppose I could just properly support the model and do both in one print with a resize. Just a quick graphic for the three potential scales. I didn't apply any modifier to the Hunter for Blitz scale and just showed it as is for 1/144 for a 4.3m gear (measured to the top of the rocket pod).
Okay, looking good, but consider breaking it down into sub-assemblies, which would then allow you to repose the parts.
Okay, looking good, but consider breaking it down into sub-assemblies, which would then allow you to repose the parts.
It's a good idea and I might try that. I did something similar when I started tweaking them this year but wasn't happy with the results. Since then I've hopefully gotten better with both supporting the models and fine tuning my prints so it might be worth another shot. My embarassingly crappy photo below shows the one piece on the left and multipiece on the right. It's not an apples to apples comparison as I tweaked other variables like size/thickness in an attempt to emulate the blitz models more closely.
Spoiler:
edit: Last night's efforts. I figured I'd split up the parts mostly like a rafm physical model (so the LAC is attached to the hand) and eventually print it out this way. Tonight I'm going to retry the boolean subtractions so that I can actually have proper sockets to go with the ball joints on the arms and head. I haven't been able to get that function to work properly in any of the programs I've tried. :( If it doesn't work then I'll just have to print it as is and drill it out manually with an electric drill.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/14 12:27:00
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Cool! I'm looking forward to seeing the eventual full model! Just don't be tempted to be too faithful or detailed at the cost of printability. The pc game had very detailed eyelenses that failed to print correctly despite intramodel supports and multiple rounds of detail thickening.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/14 14:29:52
I'm printing out my RAFM custom gear so decided to search for HG on youtube for the first time in a long while this morning and found this interesting first hand account of having a nascent interest in HG and interacting with DP9 at gencon. Those pertinent parts are in the first few minutes and I'm only about 15 min currently. When he gets to the rules, it gets more optimistic so far.
Any thoughts on this? It kind of reminds me of a modern CGI take on VOTOMS/HG with its seemingly disposable trooper mechs. I've only skimmed through the first episode but plan to watch the series this week. Apparently this used to be paywalled on youtube behind their red service but now isn't with the second season coming up in 2-3 months.
There seem to be some 1/35 modular model kits available as well but nothing wargaming though.
I watched the first ep back when the rest was behind the paywall, and it looked pretty cool. Smaller than HGs but much in the "upgraded infantry" box as them.
Albertorius wrote: I watched the first ep back when the rest was behind the paywall, and it looked pretty cool. Smaller than HGs but much in the "upgraded infantry" box as them.
Definitely smaller than HG and Votoms and basically a Star Wars Clone Wars AT-RT with arms prior to modification. The pilot fits in the box on the back when it is armored which was a bit of a pleasant surprise for me.
I think it's interesting that the various models use the same core skeleton structure given to them by aliens apparently in the anime and the differences are due to the human factions adding stuff on.
