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2014/06/08 19:54:58
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Albertorius wrote: That said, there has truly been a dearth of really great mecha anime shows in the last years, particularly of the more "real" side of the axis.
Seems to be very true from what I've sampled of late and over the past few years, and not just for robots.
Whenever I want to watch a really good storyline in an animated movie I borrow Porco Rosso and Castle in the Sky from my niece and nephew, which were Xmas gifts to them several years ago.
Hm, can't say I particularly agree, there's been some really, really good stuff in these last years, though maybe just not to your liking.
Of course, Miyakazi is still on a whole league of his own...
2014/06/08 22:20:05
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
So has anyone tried out the HGA Alpha videogame? If so, are you allowed to talk about it? If so, what are your impressions. I noticed when checking to see if the revised Lion's Wrath was out that apparently the pc game went live some time recently.
2014/06/09 04:04:55
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
warboss wrote: So has anyone tried out the HGA Alpha videogame? If so, are you allowed to talk about it? If so, what are your impressions. I noticed when checking to see if the revised Lion's Wrath was out that apparently the pc game went live some time recently.
Sadly I am not a part of the Alpha. But here's some pictures:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
WARNING: Put under Spoiler because the images are big.
Huh, is that a Jäger? It looks... well, very exposed ^_^. The rocket pack almost feels like a placeholder, but the LPA (I'm assuming that's what it is) looks nice enough.
2014/06/09 06:52:50
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
It would seem I am now banned forevermore on the Pod forums for posting in a "troll-like" manner and doing a terrible job on the Northern Army List that was saved only by the hard work of Robert and Saleem. (Direct quote on the terrible job saved by hard work part btw, I kid you not.)
"heh, I see AL13N "helped" again, and that the book is now further broken without even noticing all the models that couldn't be swapped for in their respective combat groups. Along with more costing errors on top of the previous ones, as well as many datacards still being wrong. Not to mention a few wrong variant names, again. That all takes real talent. Oh - all those bazookas & MRPs added back in were kind of removed for a reason, but hey, they should still be in every Northern CG and cost +0, right? LMAO"
And apparently I have also been making similarly objectionable posts on Facebook.... which is definitely news to me considering I do not have a FB account.... so absolutely no clue WTF is up with that.
I'm still not sure why he expects me to just smile through this all, and feel sorry for him while simultaneously respecting his position. Just have to see what happens when the usual messages stop flying back and forth.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/09 06:53:52
"These reports were remarkably free of self-serving rhetoric. Most commanders admitted mistakes, scrutinized plans and doctrine, and suggested practical improvements." - Col. Joseph H. Alexander, USMC (Ret), from 'Utmost Savagery, The Three Days of Tarawa''
"I tell you there is something splendid in a man who will not always obey. Why, if we had done as the kings had told us five hundred years ago, we should have all been slaves. If we had done as the priests told us, we should have all been idiots. If we had done as the doctors told us, we should have all been dead.
We have been saved by disobedience." - Robert G. Ingersoll
"At this point, I'll be the first to admit it, I so do not give them the benefit of the doubt that, if they saved all the children and puppies from a burning orphanage, I would probably suspect them of having started the fire. " - mrondeau, on DP9
"No factual statement should be relied upon without further investigation on your part sufficient to satisfy you in your independent judgment that it is true." - Small Wars Journal
2014/06/09 07:05:58
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
But on the other hand, for all the talk of focused testing and feedback, your post was the epitome of the kind of useless and snarky half-feedback you see disgruntled players.
If you let that kind of posting get out of hand, it just devolves a community into more of the same, which goes against the very thing you guys wanted.
I know you're angry, but if you let yourself fall into that kind of angry despair, it ends up doing nothing for your cause.
Also it's nice to see someone finally taking the advice and just making your own version of the game instead.
Those HG alpha shots are way early, but they should really consider taking the time to create assets early on that give a better idea to the player how large the gears are. Something to help ground them in the world.
Isn't that recent game, Titanfall, have about the same sized walkers as heavy gear?
@Albertorius, Yep, Jager. They're working with just the skeleton and modular armor plates, trying stuff out, I think. Should be able to get some coverings for those joints soon enough.
And that's actually the light laser cannon or sniper laser cannon, I believe.
The rocket pack they're trying to go for realistic barrel size, I believe.
@Vertrucio, Yeah, Titanfall's a little bit bigger. My post on Facebook was "Titanfall, eat your heart out."
I made a version of Thunder Run rules over a year ago, now I'm just going for Infinity-esque. Two folks have already been very helpful, and the rules are coming together nicely.
@Smilodon, Sorry.
-Brandon F.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/06/09 07:19:09
Smilodon_UP wrote: It would seem I am now banned forevermore on the Pod forums for posting in a "troll-like" manner and doing a terrible job on the Northern Army List that was saved only by the hard work of Robert and Saleem. (Direct quote on the terrible job saved by hard work part btw, I kid you not.)
[...]
I'm still not sure why he expects me to just smile through this all, and feel sorry for him while simultaneously respecting his position. Just have to see what happens when the usual messages stop flying back and forth.
Well, since you did such a "terrible job", I can only assume that Robert finally removed you from the credits, if only to credit Saleem for his hard work.
Those last words, BTW ? Horrifying. I have seen Saleem's work and the thinking substitute he uses. I would not employ him to do anything.
That being said, you post was not exactly the most diplomatic ever, so Robert deleting it is justified. Of course, it doesn't make the rest of Robert's action ok.
2014/06/09 14:46:39
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Sorry to see you go from there but as Mrondeau said it might have been better to continue posting critiques in your previous snarky way (i.e. "The MRPs were removed for a reason and costed appropriately... /shrug"). I can't see what you wrote in the thread nor Robert's response that you mentioned (was it a post or a PM?) as it has been deleted but if your quote is accurate then I can't honestly blame them for deleting it. Permaban though is too harsh a punishment though for a single post like that.
2014/06/09 16:06:07
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Albertorius wrote: Hm, can't say I particularly agree, there's been some really, really good stuff in these last years, though maybe just not to your liking.
Of course, Miyakazi is still on a whole league of his own...
True enough, on what DSL I can get here basically nothing much streams so I can only really see what Flashgot or etc can grab for previews or episodes from wherever.
And the shows are usually so expensive to purchase, with essentially no resale value if you don't like it, that I haven't thought about purchasing any for years now.
But yeah, there is also that low tolerance for "silly" or "does not fit the setting/story" I have anymore compared to most folks.
Vertrucio wrote: But on the other hand, for all the talk of focused testing and feedback, your post was the epitome of the kind of useless and snarky half-feedback you see disgruntled players.
If you let that kind of posting get out of hand, it just devolves a community into more of the same, which goes against the very thing you guys wanted.
I know you're angry, but if you let yourself fall into that kind of angry despair, it ends up doing nothing for your cause.
I would agree with most of that. Continuing to be reasonable though also assumes a few things about the Pod;
* Competence
* Comprehension
* Willingness to listen.
None of which are happening anymore, not even the little amounts that used to occur with others to ride herd on el presidente.
Several of those changes he made to "cover faction flavor that was missed from Locked & Loaded" options were solely to benefit one faction, and at the instigation of one favored player whose voice is heard over everyone else because what he says most times are things Robert wants to hear, and correct only rarely enters the picture. I can tell because that test player kept asking for those exact same things month after month because he couldn't see how the actual changes already gave him most all of it anyways, refusing to countenance even the slightest change to his chosen faction that didn't involve a hefty firepower upgrade or a massive level of points reduction compared to every other in-game faction.
When he didn't get all of those things with each revision of the PDF draft he would repeatedly threaten to quit talking to the other testers, who were trying to explain to him how the changes worked and balanced against the other field guide factions, until he could "talk" to only Robert, Saleem, or the then line-editor because he had spent more, played more, done more, etc etc etc for the Pod. This was coming from someone who tested the book but can't be bothered to check on what is a typo before saying it's a mistake, when just like the guy doing layout he had access to all of the corrected material as handed in.
Which is pretty much the same thing that happened with the developer Saleem and his pet Paxton project, only on a larger scale. They both went running to get what they wanted at the expense of any game balance rather than work for the benefit of everyone else. In the past the Pod's stance was that this is how things are, we changed it for a reason, (maybe) here is why, live with it. Even for things grossly and obviously broken, or that they specifically changed to promote certain miniatures. But with these last two ebooks that has not at all been the case. They still promote some things over others, but have all the direction of a wet rag until it comes to one of their pet ideas. People are getting handed work, which should obviously be directed with a few suggestions and coordination, but it does absolutely no good to give the Pod what they ask for, because they haven't got the first clue as to what they actually want.
I try hard when something happens to reexamine and see what I did wrong, because as with most folks it's usually some sort of operator error or lack of ability. But that isn't the default position of these other folks I mentioned, which is that everyone else is completely incompetent, no matter how wrong they themselves are in actuality.
It's like they didn't work on the exact same project as the rest of us, which just utterly boggles me. Because you really have to wonder when a line states [Swap up to 2 Standard Hunter models for a Standard Jaguar for +15 TV each.] and yet somehow doesn't accomplish the same thing as [Swap any Hunter (Stock) CGL model for a Jaguar (Stock) for +15TV, which becomes the new CGL.] in their view, which gets addedwhile also keeping the original line(s) they say doesn't allow that very same thing....
"I had to add the Jaguar CGL back into the Fire Support Squad for gods sake and to make the Fire Support Squad box set of miniatures legal." (Another lovely direct quote once again, no kidding. Yet this was covered in a conversation with him over New Year day(s), where I explained it directly multiple times. The testers went over the boxes compared to the starting combat group sub-type builds back at the end of October in some depth, but he still basically keeps restating that the group could have done no such thing.)
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This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2015/01/30 22:58:08
"These reports were remarkably free of self-serving rhetoric. Most commanders admitted mistakes, scrutinized plans and doctrine, and suggested practical improvements." - Col. Joseph H. Alexander, USMC (Ret), from 'Utmost Savagery, The Three Days of Tarawa''
"I tell you there is something splendid in a man who will not always obey. Why, if we had done as the kings had told us five hundred years ago, we should have all been slaves. If we had done as the priests told us, we should have all been idiots. If we had done as the doctors told us, we should have all been dead.
We have been saved by disobedience." - Robert G. Ingersoll
"At this point, I'll be the first to admit it, I so do not give them the benefit of the doubt that, if they saved all the children and puppies from a burning orphanage, I would probably suspect them of having started the fire. " - mrondeau, on DP9
"No factual statement should be relied upon without further investigation on your part sufficient to satisfy you in your independent judgment that it is true." - Small Wars Journal
2014/06/09 16:49:33
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
warboss wrote: So you're banned, threatened with a permaban on the next infraction (whether real or perceived), or choosing not to ever come back?
Oh, I'm very banned - it happened after I responded to his PM using email, while I was working on a response to his own email that followed up his PM.
But oddly enough he didn't delete the member name itself or other potentially objectionable posts made recently.
"These reports were remarkably free of self-serving rhetoric. Most commanders admitted mistakes, scrutinized plans and doctrine, and suggested practical improvements." - Col. Joseph H. Alexander, USMC (Ret), from 'Utmost Savagery, The Three Days of Tarawa''
"I tell you there is something splendid in a man who will not always obey. Why, if we had done as the kings had told us five hundred years ago, we should have all been slaves. If we had done as the priests told us, we should have all been idiots. If we had done as the doctors told us, we should have all been dead.
We have been saved by disobedience." - Robert G. Ingersoll
"At this point, I'll be the first to admit it, I so do not give them the benefit of the doubt that, if they saved all the children and puppies from a burning orphanage, I would probably suspect them of having started the fire. " - mrondeau, on DP9
"No factual statement should be relied upon without further investigation on your part sufficient to satisfy you in your independent judgment that it is true." - Small Wars Journal
2014/06/09 17:59:05
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
BrandonKF wrote: I always did have a feeling that the Southern Republic had a minor resemblance to America, with personal freedom being valued above all else.
-Brandon F.
Not really. The US culture strongly values political expression, and that's the one thing that's forbidden in the South.
Regarding the 90s view of the South as the bad guys, I suspect that the view was influenced by the first video game.
2014/06/09 18:04:27
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
While I agree that it is influenced by the 1990's videogame, I'd say the stronger influence on who is the "bad guy" is the obvious parallel between the Southern Republic and the USSR along with the other AST being the TN equivalent of the Warsaw Pact (occupied countries forced into being "allies"). There was no bigger bad guy during that time than what lurked behind the Iron Curtain. That said, I agree that pretty much all TN factions have elements of both good and bad.
BrandonKF wrote: I always did have a feeling that the Southern Republic had a minor resemblance to America, with personal freedom being valued above all else.
-Brandon F.
Not really. The US culture strongly values political expression, and that's the one thing that's forbidden in the South.
Regarding the 90s view of the South as the bad guys, I suspect that the view was influenced by the first video game.
The way I describe it to folks is that the north is like the US with Southern Baptists and corporations gone wild where being PC is king but you ostensibly have political freedom. The south is more like a socially tolerant Soviet Union that is ok with cults and other forms of social slavery as long as the official state apparatus tows the political and military party line.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/06/09 18:21:54
2014/06/09 19:47:27
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
So, the SRA is basically the soviet union, with Montréal's social scene ?
Evil.
As for Robert, he has never fired someone for being incompetent, or making a blunder, no matter how costly. Yet he changes writers every two years, and hasn't managed to keep a layout artist two books in a row. Go figure ?
Virtus in extremis
2014/06/09 21:11:06
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
I dunno. Does Montreal's social scene include that one Southern city that's completely nudist?
(can't remember the name of the city off the top of my head)
Ashanti ? Well, Ashanti is what people that live in Canada think life on the tropics is like. Not really accurate, but I think we'd all like to spend our holidays there.
Virtus in extremis
2014/06/09 21:43:57
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
warboss wrote: So you're banned, threatened with a permaban on the next infraction (whether real or perceived), or choosing not to ever come back?
Oh, I'm very banned - it happened after I responded to his PM using email, while I was working on a response to his own email that followed up his PM.
Ah, sorry to hear that. Are you going to leave up your player guides?
Yeah, a few folks seem to have made use of it, and it might come in handy for the next "fix" or two or three to try and figure out how things were supposed to work.
HudsonD wrote: As for Robert, he has never fired someone for being incompetent, or making a blunder, no matter how costly. Yet he changes writers every two years, and hasn't managed to keep a layout artist two books in a row. Go figure?
Amazing, isn't it, that the Pod somehow keeps attracting a minute trickle of players.
Although TPTB never do seem to get just why most of those new folks gravitate towards stealth armies or etc etc.
If a brand new player can tell so quickly what things give such a powerful advantage in-game you'd think the people making the game could eventually see it as well.
But I guess not, TPTB's lack of understanding is pretty astonishing really.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/31 04:30:55
"These reports were remarkably free of self-serving rhetoric. Most commanders admitted mistakes, scrutinized plans and doctrine, and suggested practical improvements." - Col. Joseph H. Alexander, USMC (Ret), from 'Utmost Savagery, The Three Days of Tarawa''
"I tell you there is something splendid in a man who will not always obey. Why, if we had done as the kings had told us five hundred years ago, we should have all been slaves. If we had done as the priests told us, we should have all been idiots. If we had done as the doctors told us, we should have all been dead.
We have been saved by disobedience." - Robert G. Ingersoll
"At this point, I'll be the first to admit it, I so do not give them the benefit of the doubt that, if they saved all the children and puppies from a burning orphanage, I would probably suspect them of having started the fire. " - mrondeau, on DP9
"No factual statement should be relied upon without further investigation on your part sufficient to satisfy you in your independent judgment that it is true." - Small Wars Journal
2014/06/09 23:56:44
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
warboss wrote: So you're banned, threatened with a permaban on the next infraction (whether real or perceived), or choosing not to ever come back?
Oh, I'm very banned - it happened after I responded to his PM using email, while I was working on a response to his own email that followed up his PM.
Ah, sorry to hear that. Are you going to leave up your player guides?
Yeah, a few folks seem to have made use of it, and it might come in handy for the next "fix" or two or three to try and figure out how things were supposed to work.
That's nice of you and a good idea. For anyone interested, I've finished up a few extra models for my northern army to get them Lion's Wrath (revised) ready. Feel free to click on the link below or my blog link in my sig (MECHABLOG) for pics and details.
mrondeau wrote: Well, since you did such a "terrible job", I can only assume that Robert finally removed you from the credits, if only to credit Saleem for his hard work.
I hadn't checked before, but he didn't change the credits in this last re-release, or at least not as yet. Must have slipped his mind.
These are some of those direct quotes I mentioned before from the generalissimo's "you will be banner" messages, which is rather laughable considering virtually nothing I proposed as an original idea actually made it into the book.
So in effect Robert has blamed both his developer(s) and himself for the execution.... ;
"This is your first an last warning, you did a terrible job on the Northern Army List and only the hard work of myself and Saleem saved it, if I see one more comment about this in the DP9 Forum or Facebook page you will be banned forever."
"I have to let you know this, there were so many problems with the Northern Army List its not funny, if it was not for myself and Saleem’s hard work over the last month to fix a few of the problems the ebook would have needed to be scrapped."
"Problems in the army list included leaving out key options in some of the squads and factions that were there since Locked & Loaded that gave flavor to the factions. When Forged in Fire was done we keep all the important swaps and faction options and add a bunch more options. What you can never seam to realize is that a player with an existing army of miniatures will be very pissed off if you remove a miniature or 2 from it and force him to buy replacements, I had to add the Jaguar CGL back into the Fire Support Squad for gods sake and to make the Fire Support Squad box set of miniatures legal. And for the Tiger fixes I just had to made, the miniature parts include MAC and MRP/9 not a LRP/32 you can’t sell a person a miniature for years and then the army list designer wants to save 5 TV so you have to go by a LRP part and I checked with the spread sheet you adjusted the Tiger Stock down from 47 TV to 40 TV, so 5 TV ain’t that much of a big deal, now is it. And I’m not going to get into all the senseless options that got added.
Thank fully the new edition of Heavy Gear Blitz that we are working on now with reset the game and give us a balanced starting point."
Things solely of my doing that actually ended up in the published book without being vetoed by Saleem or changed by Robert, as best I can recall. Everything else pretty much had to cover a legacy something, or was a directive from either of them that I had to follow;
Spoiler:
* Infantry, Gear, Airmobile, and Special Forces regimental benefits. Primarily this was for how the [Sat Uplink] loadout worked, to save option lines in the combat group listings.
* One loadout per model or variant restriction.
* Putting the shared infantry options into the universal upgrades.
* Skill level restriction for non-veteran and veteran models actually spelled out in full.
* That the sub-type builds in the combat groups didn't share names with each other, or directly copy from other field guides. TPTB are really, really bad about this detail.
* Wildfire variant including multiple previously separate types of equipment swaps, such as [IRP], [MAC], and [MPZ]. Getting the [HPZ] dropped down to [MPZ] in the first place so there wasn't an additional x20 DM weapon on every single model or variant.
* [MPZ] as part of the Arrow [AGM] variant loadout.
* [HPZ] as part of the Assault [snub] model loadout, and as part of the UC (Urban Combat [FGC]) model loadout.
* Spearhead loadout not just being a basic [HAC] swap.
* Fang variant [LBZK] being a loadout of the Strike [MBZK] for certain models.
* Headhunter allowed variants.
* Flak, Stalking, Night, and SECCOM variants or models being based on the Strike Cheetah.
* Silver Cat model having ECCM instead of ECM.
* Thunder Grizzly [Autopilot] and some TV saving changes such as MRP/36 and LGM.
* Similar changes to the Rabid Thunder Grizzly.
* Stalking Jaguar model, and the Flash [SLC] variant being on the Stalking (sniper) models.
* How the "lower-end" Night models actually ended up.
* Mountain loadouts that weren't in NVC 1.
* Saboteur variants adding the SKG (Reloads).
* Storm Hunter Commando variant.
* Ferret Mk 1 Paratrooper model not being called the Flying Squirrel.
* The eventual Wolf light Strider loadouts for models and variants, costed as a counter to the Naga, but deleted completely to add Robert's Facebook inspired Gear-Strider idea.
* Brawler Mammoth having 2xMAAC instead of just 2xMAC.
* Stalling out on not adding an (AE) attack for heavy railguns.
* The Bandit Hunter Klemm and Hunter XMG losing [+Sensors] given that they both carry an MRP pack, which is a combination found on virtually no other model for any Blitz! faction.
* Master Aller, and the model not ending up as a carrier for MAAC sentry drone turrets.
* Changes to the Mad Dog model such as [Reinforced Armor: Front 2] to make it worthwhile.
* Hunter XMG restricted to Wildfire [HIRP] or Assault [SC] variants in the GP so there wasn't MRPs on +ATK models aside from the standard Tiger's low RoF MRP. However, this XMG variant can no longer be taken as [General] because it got put onto the Assault datacard, which is a [Veteran] swap.
* The Arrow Hunter [AGM + MPZ] was supposed to be available as (1) per squadron in any of the sub-types. Instead it's now on the Assault datacard.
* 2iC option line in the Recon squadron.
* Standard Cheetah cost adjustment.
* Cost adjustments to the various Ferret and Weasel type models for their actual performance compared to the pitiful amount the VCS said they should cost.
* Two different [Veteran] option lines in the Strike squadron allowing swaps from either Hunter or Jaguar models to Grizzly and KodiakDestroyer-variants for the best choice of costing, and to balance how other option lines affected the sub-type builds.
* Dragoon squadrons starting with SD Hunters in each of the sub-type builds.
* An option line for Kodiak models in the Dragoon CG.
* Pathifinder [Rifle] loadout to reflect the Recon component - an option which AL13N absolutely hated, so I'm surprised it isn't gone, even though it lets players move existing models around in their force.
* Which infantry platoons had which weapon options.
* How the [Faction Allowed Model Swaps] rule was worded, and that all of the swaps worked and were still appropriate to the factions.
* That the multipurpose and iconic Dragoon combat group type was not affected by the double [Veteran] tax of the later changed [Faction Exclusive Combat Groups] rule.
* [Airdroppable] trait for Sabertooth in the NorGuard Cat's Paws (Ranger) exclusive CG type, now allowed for the UMFA too by a Robert change.
* More down-to-earth loadout(s) for the NorGuard Juggernaut infantry transport Strider from what AL13N and Saleem envisioned, and starting the combat group with the Pathfinder [2xHRF] variant instead of the overly powerful [2xVLFG] standard model.
* [Hammering Heels] rule for NAF.
* Panda-style waist mounted dual-FGCs on the Grizzly Initiate model.
* The NAF faction exclusive combat groups and their ability to get a full platoon of infantry plus (5) Gear models, although the infantry attachment idea was a directive from Saleem to fit with [Hammering Heels].
* Field Armor for Badger models.
* UMFA [Deep Pockets] rule not being a clone of the SRA [Well Funded] rule.
* The UMFA faction exclusive combat groups, although the Ashington Royals (Strider) sub-type was later gutted to accommodate Robert's Facebook inspired Gear-Strider idea. Whose base cost he was unable to add correctly even though it only starts with (3) models.
* The entire Northern Territorial Reserves (NTR) concept, excepting how the [Tenacity] rule ended up, so everything could be in one book unlike each previous field guide.
Not really all that much.... so it's kind of silly for Robert to be dissing on me for "writing" the thing.
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This message was edited 13 times. Last update was at 2015/01/31 04:31:29
"These reports were remarkably free of self-serving rhetoric. Most commanders admitted mistakes, scrutinized plans and doctrine, and suggested practical improvements." - Col. Joseph H. Alexander, USMC (Ret), from 'Utmost Savagery, The Three Days of Tarawa''
"I tell you there is something splendid in a man who will not always obey. Why, if we had done as the kings had told us five hundred years ago, we should have all been slaves. If we had done as the priests told us, we should have all been idiots. If we had done as the doctors told us, we should have all been dead.
We have been saved by disobedience." - Robert G. Ingersoll
"At this point, I'll be the first to admit it, I so do not give them the benefit of the doubt that, if they saved all the children and puppies from a burning orphanage, I would probably suspect them of having started the fire. " - mrondeau, on DP9
"No factual statement should be relied upon without further investigation on your part sufficient to satisfy you in your independent judgment that it is true." - Small Wars Journal
2014/06/10 12:42:55
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
I hadn't checked before, but he didn't change the credits in this last re-release, or at least not as yet. Must have slipped his mind.
That's probably because he's planning to blame you when the problems come out. After all, neither Saleem nor him can be responsible for any problems, since their work is obviously perfect. All problems in a DP9 product are either unavoidable or caused by an ex-employee.
Always.
2014/06/10 17:04:37
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
mrondeau wrote: That's probably because he's planning to blame you when the problems come out. After all, neither Saleem nor him can be responsible for any problems, since their work is obviously perfect. All problems in a DP9 product are either unavoidable or caused by an ex-employee.
Always.
Yeah, that has definitely become pretty apparent over this Spring and late Winter.
After his two word "YOUR BANNER" message I haven't heard a thing from him.
But there is simply no way he is going to respond to a post that tears apart his rant and raves to show where all of these perceived "problems" were pretty much exclusively of his own doing.
"Now I did a job; and got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words in regard to my character. So let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job... and then I get paid. Go run your little world."- Mal Reynolds, Firefly
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/01/31 03:58:40
"These reports were remarkably free of self-serving rhetoric. Most commanders admitted mistakes, scrutinized plans and doctrine, and suggested practical improvements." - Col. Joseph H. Alexander, USMC (Ret), from 'Utmost Savagery, The Three Days of Tarawa''
"I tell you there is something splendid in a man who will not always obey. Why, if we had done as the kings had told us five hundred years ago, we should have all been slaves. If we had done as the priests told us, we should have all been idiots. If we had done as the doctors told us, we should have all been dead.
We have been saved by disobedience." - Robert G. Ingersoll
"At this point, I'll be the first to admit it, I so do not give them the benefit of the doubt that, if they saved all the children and puppies from a burning orphanage, I would probably suspect them of having started the fire. " - mrondeau, on DP9
"No factual statement should be relied upon without further investigation on your part sufficient to satisfy you in your independent judgment that it is true." - Small Wars Journal
2014/06/10 18:47:39
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
So I'll try and get things back on track slightly.
Heavy Gear was a game I always wanted to play. I bought a bunch of the RPG books. loved the art style. Loved the Mechs.
I'm huge on mini games, and will often play/collect multiple games. My group and I were huge on the idea of Heavy Gear, and we're Canadian so go local game company.
Here's why we tried, but couldn't get into the game.
Alright... I want this game. I gotta play it! I'll grab the starter box.
$60 online (plus shipping), $80 in Canada. Six mechs, the rule book and some dice. Not really a good deal when you compare it to other game starter sets (Dropzone, Flames of War, Dystopian Wars etc etc).
That's not a great value, but man oh man I want to play this game.
Then I find out the rulebook isn't valid anymore...
Then I find out the included mechs literally can't play a game as Blitz uses 5 mech squads, and there's 3 mechs on each side. Wait, how many damn mechs do I need for this?
So why am I buying a starter box?
Alright, screw it. I'll buy the PDF read the rules and figure it out from there.
Read the rules, they honestly look kind of weak. Seems like people will spend a lot of time shooting at each other with nothing happening? Wait, what are these dice I'm supposed to have beside each mech? How many special dice am I going to have to buy? Also, seem overly complicated for little benefit. Watch a gameplay demo. Several shots, literally nothing hits. Okay...
But I still love those mechs. Figure I'll need three squads for a decentish game. Looks like each squad is 250-300 points, and a battle is between 500 and 1000 points. In Canada that's about $100-$150 after tax. Most of the group balks, way to much to simply try a game that has a terrible reputation.
A friend and I decide to still do it. We're going to get the units we need, buy the book. It's about $300 when we're at the store for everything we need.
We look around, seeing everything with a much better price, and more support.
For $300 we left with the Dropzone Commander Starter Box, Dust Tactics Starter Box, and a Malifaux crew each.
More support for those games, better rules IMO and we ended up with far more minis then we would have if we had played Heavy Gear.
If there was ever a game that needed a complete rebuild from scratch it's Heavy Gear. Most people forget it exists. Do a kickstarter maybe? Or a decent starter set? Even if they have to use plastic minis, do it. The goal of a starter set is you give me enough to play a few great games, but wet my appetite for more. 3 mechs a side for a game that requires a minimum of four isn't going to do it for me.
2014/06/10 19:36:42
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Twelvecarpileup wrote: For $300 we left with the Dropzone Commander Starter Box, Dust Tactics Starter Box, and a Malifaux crew each.
More support for those games, better rules IMO and we ended up with far more minis then we would have if we had played Heavy Gear.
If there was ever a game that needed a complete rebuild from scratch it's Heavy Gear. Most people forget it exists. Do a kickstarter maybe? Or a decent starter set? Even if they have to use plastic minis, do it. The goal of a starter set is you give me enough to play a few great games, but wet my appetite for more.
Yeah, for such a great setting the implementation has been shortsighted and very ugly for most of it's history, especially in the Blitz!-era.
I've got a full set of 2e RPG & Tactical books, and almost all of the Blitz! books as physical copies, along with ~60 pre-Blitz! miniatures for North & South.
But those Gears are not assembled, as no one I know has ever been willing to touch the game. And as you pointed out the title is so unknown that it's all but impossible to unload any of those things you can't use, sometimes even at give-away prices.
After the (2) botched HG Assault kickstarters though I don't know that the DP9 company could get anyone to trust the Heavy Gear name anymore.
Because along with that a bit of quick web research is going to turn up stuff like this thread, or the one over on RPG.net.
Twelvecarpileup wrote: 3 mechs a side for a game that requires a minimum of four isn't going to do it for me.
The original concepts for what got turned into the Alpha ruleset revamp was supposed to allow (3) model units to function as individual teams, with force construction being more open while allowing specialist attachments like tanks and whatnot to be added as single models.
So of course that didn't last long, as now it's all based on "actions" to ensure a minimum number of single action models have to still be purchased, while essentially all that is getting released for new models is rule of cool $$$-grab things as the exact opposite of that process.
But the Pod always chooses to ignore how badly priced their individual models tend to be compared with other games or companies that don't have a monopoly on the production.
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This message was edited 9 times. Last update was at 2015/01/31 03:56:12
"These reports were remarkably free of self-serving rhetoric. Most commanders admitted mistakes, scrutinized plans and doctrine, and suggested practical improvements." - Col. Joseph H. Alexander, USMC (Ret), from 'Utmost Savagery, The Three Days of Tarawa''
"I tell you there is something splendid in a man who will not always obey. Why, if we had done as the kings had told us five hundred years ago, we should have all been slaves. If we had done as the priests told us, we should have all been idiots. If we had done as the doctors told us, we should have all been dead.
We have been saved by disobedience." - Robert G. Ingersoll
"At this point, I'll be the first to admit it, I so do not give them the benefit of the doubt that, if they saved all the children and puppies from a burning orphanage, I would probably suspect them of having started the fire. " - mrondeau, on DP9
"No factual statement should be relied upon without further investigation on your part sufficient to satisfy you in your independent judgment that it is true." - Small Wars Journal
2014/06/10 19:58:49
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Arena would have allowed small teams. Encouraged them, even. But when you spend over half the book talking about running a season, and then completely botch one of the most basic elements of the gameplay - i.e. the salary cap - it's pretty clear that there are some big problems with the rules.
I remember when I finally sat down to figure out how the whole "build a team" thing worked, I ran the numbers... and figured out that I couldn't even outfit an entire team with bricklayers and stay within the salary cap.
There were other things that made me go "Huh?" But the salary cap issue was so obvious...
And the worst of it was that despite multiple forum posts on the subject, the Pod never once even acknowledged the criticism of the cap. Even when the FAQ and Errata was released, there wasn't a single word devoted to the salary cap.
2014/06/10 20:05:40
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
I still dont know how the hell Arena is supposed to be played, and years after the release, the game has not been fixed. Man I wanted that game SO MUCH...
2014/06/10 20:34:58
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Eumerin wrote: Arena would have allowed small teams. Encouraged them, even. But when you spend over half the book talking about running a season, and then completely botch one of the most basic elements of the gameplay - i.e. the salary cap - it's pretty clear that there are some big problems with the rules.
And the worst of it was that despite multiple forum posts on the subject, the Pod never once even acknowledged the criticism of the cap. Even when the FAQ and Errata was released, there wasn't a single word devoted to the salary cap.
Albertorius wrote: I still dont know how the hell Arena is supposed to be played, and years after the release, the game has not been fixed. Man I wanted that game SO MUCH...
In retrospect I think it's kind of telling that Saleem was one of the primary testers for Arena, which seems to be how he got to be be a developer in the first place.
Twelvecarpileup wrote: We wanted to try the racing one, but have barely heard anything about it... really poor marketing.
The rules can be gotten as a free PDF, but yeah, then you'll need minis again unless y'all try it out with paper counters.
For all the effort the Pod put into it though, as it was essentially the only product they brought out last year and likewise managed to get to GenCon, yes, the marketing aspect has been largely absent once again.
Their DP9 Chatter person vanished pretty quickly too, but did manage to interview, guess who, AL13N... funny how he keeps showing up in everything.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/01/31 03:54:56
"These reports were remarkably free of self-serving rhetoric. Most commanders admitted mistakes, scrutinized plans and doctrine, and suggested practical improvements." - Col. Joseph H. Alexander, USMC (Ret), from 'Utmost Savagery, The Three Days of Tarawa''
"I tell you there is something splendid in a man who will not always obey. Why, if we had done as the kings had told us five hundred years ago, we should have all been slaves. If we had done as the priests told us, we should have all been idiots. If we had done as the doctors told us, we should have all been dead.
We have been saved by disobedience." - Robert G. Ingersoll
"At this point, I'll be the first to admit it, I so do not give them the benefit of the doubt that, if they saved all the children and puppies from a burning orphanage, I would probably suspect them of having started the fire. " - mrondeau, on DP9
"No factual statement should be relied upon without further investigation on your part sufficient to satisfy you in your independent judgment that it is true." - Small Wars Journal
2014/06/10 21:14:10
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
We wanted to try the racing one, but have barely heard anything about it... really poor marketing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As a side note, I think a skirmish based Heavy Gear game, with decent mechanics could be a home run.
I don't know about that last part. I've come to the conclusion over the last year that DP9 has pretty much pissed away most of the good will they garnered during their heyday of the RPG and the video games with back to back to back to back blunders. With this complaint thread being the second most active independent place to discuss HG on the whole internet (second only to a very long running complaint thread on RPG.net), I don't think there are that many previous players willing to spend yet again and be possibly misled. It seems that most of the time the game is brought up the only people that care to comment about it are ones that have been burned (usually multiple times) in the past by bad decisions made at Dp9. YMMV. In any case, I agree with most of your points made in the earlier larger thread and even made a fair amount of them myself last year in a series of constructive criticism/advice threads (much more optimistic that this thread) over in the grog subforums at dp9. The advice of armchair quarterbacks has always been out in the open and seemingly always ignored; in retrospect, the fans who don't run tabletop gaming businesses seem to have a keener sense of what customers want than those making the decisions.
On a similar note, I asked about the format of the rpg "Rumble in the Jungle" pdf over on the official forums and got an answer. Apparently, the product will NOT look like existing Blitz or previous RPG products from DP9 and instead use the much plainer large font and no embellishment ebook look. As someone who initially was brought into DP9 products specifically because of their revolutionary at the time look (Macross II manuals for the Robotech RPG in the early 1990s), I'm a bit bummed out about that.
They're working with just the skeleton and modular armor plates, trying stuff out, I think. Should be able to get some coverings for those joints soon enough.
