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I wouldn't say that Heavy Gear is foundering. The company is still afloat, despite of everything, and they're going to be able to roll out the new product at GenCon, booth #1321.

Nomeny wrote:
I wouldn't say that Heavy Gear is foundering. The company is still afloat, despite of everything, and they're going to be able to roll out the new product at GenCon, booth #1321.

So going from a licensed cartoon, multiple popular RPG lines, multiple successful video games by one of the biggest names in videogames, multiple games run each day at gencon (some official, others fan run), and available in most stores and most distributors to a largely direct order, one distributor carrying the product, no successful licensed finished products, all but one rpg dead in the water and the flagship RPG still in dry dock with no ETA on the launch, an videogame by a relative unknown still in alpha 4 years after the announcement, not available in most stores whether online or brick and mortar, with no games at gencon apparently scheduled isn't floundering? I'll admit that the game/company/IP is in a better state now than it was a year or two ago with the impending release of the plastics but that isn't a high bar to overcome. The titanic was afloat for hours after hitting the iceberg but that didn't prevent it from sinking. I hope it does do well with these changes though and they don't feth it up again.

 warboss wrote:

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On an unrelated note, has anyone here played a good amount or tried to play a good amount of arena? Why did that game fail specifically? (beyond the usual bugbears inherent with using the blitz silhouette system) They gave away a free copy of the rules a few years ago in some contest or promo (for HGA on facebook?) that I downloaded but I must not have kept it on more than one hard drive as I can't find it anymore.

It was released half finished, full of typos, some critical elements missing, etc... It read like it was written in a couple of weeks, and from what I was told by the people involved, it basically was.
A well-deserved dud.

 warboss wrote:
The difference is that Japan was then rebuilt thanks to the country that nuked it which also provided for its protection

That's what Earth is TRYING to do!

Dream Pod 9 is absolutely foundering less than a couple years ago when they were going to do a kickstarter for a black and white rulebook. That can safely be called foundering. Today, they are in a better place.

Heavy gear, the IP, is not in a good place. Two essentially dead games (Assault and the new RPG), and an as-yet untested relaunched flagship game. We're still at a point where the new game could reignite popularity for Heavy Gear, or it could just fizzle on.

 warboss wrote:

Nomeny wrote:
I wouldn't say that Heavy Gear is foundering. The company is still afloat, despite of everything, and they're going to be able to roll out the new product at GenCon, booth #1321.

So going from a licensed cartoon, multiple popular RPG lines, multiple successful video games by one of the biggest names in videogames, multiple games run each day at gencon (some official, others fan run), and available in most stores and most distributors to a largely direct order, one distributor carrying the product, no successful licensed finished products, all but one rpg dead in the water and the flagship RPG still in dry dock with no ETA on the launch, an videogame by a relative unknown still in alpha 4 years after the announcement, not available in most stores whether online or brick and mortar, with no games at gencon apparently scheduled isn't floundering? I'll admit that the game/company/IP is in a better state now than it was a year or two ago with the impending release of the plastics but that isn't a high bar to overcome. The titanic was afloat for hours after hitting the iceberg but that didn't prevent it from sinking. I hope it does do well with these changes though and they don't feth it up again.

I'm not disagreeing that they've seen better days. I do think that the impending release of the plastic Heavy Gear Blitz: War for Terra Nova set should see a turn-around in their fortunes. The fact that they've managed to get it produced despite the hurdles faced by the Kickstarter, and stay in business in the meantime, is a good sign to me. I'm hoping that it's something that they can build on from here.

Fun fact... I've been saying floundering (flapping around helplessly like a dying fish out of or in shallow water) and you guys have been saying foundering (a ship filling up with water and sinking). I suppose both may be appropriate.


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Nomeny wrote:
I'm not disagreeing that they've seen better days. I do think that the impending release of the plastic Heavy Gear Blitz: War for Terra Nova set should see a turn-around in their fortunes. The fact that they've managed to get it produced despite the hurdles faced by the Kickstarter, and stay in business in the meantime, is a good sign to me. I'm hoping that it's something that they can build on from here.

Change "should" to "could" (the onus being on their future continued positive efforts rather than maintaining the status quo your word implies) and I agree completely. It's a seemingly subtle difference but important (to me at least) nonetheless.


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 HudsonD wrote:
It was released half finished, full of typos, some critical elements missing, etc... It read like it was written in a couple of weeks, and from what I was told by the people involved, it basically was.
A well-deserved dud.

Thanks. I remember there being issues and a call for a long and immediate FAQ/errata to fix things but didn't recall exactly what they were. I skimmed through the pdf when I got it from the promo but focused more on the art than a detailed reading of the rules. The combos intrigued me as did the expanded combat system but as completely new mechanics (along with DP9's playtesting habits) I figured they may not hold up to much scrutiny. At least we got a few new minis out of it and some new poses for existing ones.

I think the difference is that I would like them to succeed, and I plan to volunteer some of my time to cultivate the Heavy Gear part of my hobby.

Like most of the "haters" posting in this thread, I've been there, done that... and it was neither appreciated nor particularly productive. Hopefully this new leaf the company is turning won't fall off and rot come Autumn like so many of the previous ones.

At Gencon this year, there are some Robotech Tactics games actually being run in the mini's hall. They are all sold out, but they look to be more like 2 hour demo's then "bring a list and play". Thomas Roache is running them- he was one of the writers for tactics I believe.

And there are some Robotech RPG events going on too.

As far as Pacific Rim is concerned, I'd say have a look at Monsterpoclypse by Privateer Press. It's not dead, it's just in limbo due to Pacific Rim. And before you ask, yes there is some drama there, and MonPoc came first, but someone REALLY wanted to get a movie made, so he sold the rights and didn't read the fine print. On a more happy note, PacRim 2 is back on, and there is a MonPoc script being floated around, so maybe we'll see the return- MonPoc II: A Whole New Disaster.

What's the term for a drowning victim after they stop floundering?

 Tamwulf wrote:
What's the term for a drowning victim after they stop floundering?

Age of Sigmar?

 Firebreak wrote:

 Tamwulf wrote:
What's the term for a drowning victim after they stop floundering?

Age of Sigmar?

Bwaaahhaaa! Inb4JohnHwangdefendsAO$.

Psh. According to GW, AoS did fine financially, and is growing. This is entirely possible, given where WFB was.

I had forgotten about MonPoc, but it doesn't quite appeal to me. Maybe it doesn't have enough GrimDark?

It'll be interesting to see how HG does, whether the new plastics actually drive player growth and retailer support. Or whether it was just selling to the existing base.

 Tamwulf wrote:
At Gencon this year, there are some Robotech Tactics games actually being run in the mini's hall. They are all sold out, but they look to be more like 2 hour demo's then "bring a list and play". Thomas Roache is running them- he was one of the writers for tactics I believe.

And there are some Robotech RPG events going on too.

Ah, thanks. He must've submitted those later. A friend going let me know about his robotech options when it first opened; he mentioned the rpg games but I wasn't referring to related games in other genres. And iirc was the guy who originally proposed the different original game and a playtesting lead on this one...and a staunch defender of Palladium's ability to deliver in full despite three years of delays and no end in sight.


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 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Psh. According to GW, AoS did fine financially, and is growing. This is entirely possible, given where WFB was.

I had forgotten about MonPoc, but it doesn't quite appeal to me. Maybe it doesn't have enough GrimDark?

Would you really expect GW to say otherwise? The few retailers who commented here said it was a stinker and the summer 3 month premiere dropped all their sales including 40k (iirc Mikhailia said 40% lost sales month over month). Gw only admits failure if they can pin it on an external source. As for Monpoc, it's about as grimdark as Spectreman and other 60s and 70s japanese scifi faire.

Nomeny wrote:
I'm not disagreeing that they've seen better days. I do think that the impending release of the plastic Heavy Gear Blitz: War for Terra Nova set should see a turn-around in their fortunes. The fact that they've managed to get it produced despite the hurdles faced by the Kickstarter, and stay in business in the meantime, is a good sign to me. I'm hoping that it's something that they can build on from here.

I'd say that their biggest hurdle begins now: they have successfully produced the game, and they've given it a decent starting price point.

But thee most important part is that now the game must reach stores and distributors. It doesn't matter how good the new game and starter might be or not be if no one checks it out because it's only sold directly on the pod store. Even getting it on stores and a strong advertising campaing for a solid starter are not surefire measures, as the Halo fleet game clearly indicates, but if the game doesn't even get to that... it will fade and die, simple as that. Or well, limp away as it does currently.

Given how the world is going on lately, not having an overseas distributor basically means that people over here (generic "here" to basically mean EU) won't buy the game, to spare themselves the aggravation and additional costs. So that leaves you basically with the american and canadian market, where the Pod has a... reputation, with stores and distributors. They will need to overcome that, and have luck.


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 Tamwulf wrote:
And about the nuking of Paxton and landship yards, etc. etc. DP9 just uses the events of WWII as a play book for their own history. PAXTON got nuked just like Hiroshima, but Japan moved on to become a leading electronics and automotive industrial juggernaut after the war.

The bombing of Pearl Harbor made it such that many wrote off the US Pacific Fleet... but it just so happened that all the aircraft carriers were not in port that day, and it turned out those aircraft carriers won the Pacific Theater for the US.

Again, and again, DP9 has "ripped off" history for their own universe. I'm not saying it's a bad thing or not, just that that is where they get a lot of their inspiration from. Does it make any sense? /shrug

The southern landship shipyards could be argued to have been ripped off from Pearl Harbor, I guess, if you squint a bit, although if anything I would link it with the allies' bombing of Germany's manufacturing assets. But I don't really see the similarities with Peace River and Hiroshima/Nagasaki. Completely different situation, and completely different scope. Maybe the aftermath (although, again, very different scope), but honestly speaking, that came from the Blitz retcon and was not linked to the original idea in any way, so who knows.


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 Firebreak wrote:
Peace River and Port Arthur getting attacked sets up an interesting scenario regarding NuCoals NuGears, too. Some of them - I'd still see most of them disappear - could exist as part of a NATO-style joint defense program. (That is, behind schedule, overbudget, and lacking most of the features everyone wanted.) It would bulk out Paxton's line and make a little more sense than SUDDENLY HUMANIST GENIUS MAGIC. I'd like to see the Dark upgrades remain, but maybe the Claw series not launch or even enter development until the WfTN actually begins.

That would probably be a much more sensible approach than the current one.

Politically speaking, a double nuking of Peace River and Port Arthur would probably give the survivors of both factions (or rather, the multiple factions: Port Arthur and PAK survivors, Peace River and PRDF survivors, Mayen's surviving followers and the rest of the original NuCoal at the very least, with even the possible addition of Roskiman's sandrider tribe, the Desert Wolves and lastly, Proust... yes, extreme circunstances might make for strange bedfellows) compelling reasons to unite and work together against a common enemy, that being the Yakut Brotherhood and CEF agents,plus the actual CEF later on. The NuCoal has decent manufacturing capabilities for the Badlands, and among the PR survivors were some R&D teams in secreted locations, so they might provide a number of new designs for manufacturing, just nowhere near the ones that PR and NuCoal got, and they'd have to account for limited high tech resources (in other words, the designs should be done for reliability).

The Dark Project would make more sense as a joint TN effort rather than mainly a PR Skunk Works one, too, and I basically agree with the Claws.

A United Badlands led by Proust fighting Earth insurgents would be quite the twist for the Cabinet to swallow.

So lads, I stopped following this back in 2008 as it seemed like a massive cluster-feth.

Am I right in thinking from reading this thread that there are plastics "on the way" but the rules have gone further to pot than they previously were?

 Firebreak wrote:
A United Badlands led by Proust fighting Earth insurgents would be quite the twist for the Cabinet to swallow.

It is probably too out of left field, given his involvement in at least the Peace River bombing, but with enough desperation, it's not completely impossible that he could end up feeling the need to ally himself with former enemies to save the twin he has, for example; discovering the truth behind the FLAILs could make him snap, too.

 Zaku212 wrote:
So lads, I stopped following this back in 2008 as it seemed like a massive cluster-feth.

Am I right in thinking from reading this thread that there are plastics "on the way" but the rules have gone further to pot than they previously were?

I like the new beta rules, but to be fair I couldn't get into the previous edition of rules.

Honestly you should check out the rules and come to your own conclusion.

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/144759/Heavy-Gear-Blitz-Tabletop-Wargaming--Living-Rulebook-Beta?filters=0_0_0_0&manufacturers_id=19&affiliate_id=4310

 Zaku212 wrote:
So lads, I stopped following this back in 2008 as it seemed like a massive cluster-feth.

Am I right in thinking from reading this thread that there are plastics "on the way" but the rules have gone further to pot than they previously were?

Well, the rules are a new core, so it kind of remains to be seen. I'd say it has been lightly streamlined from what there was before, but I'm not sure how much of a net gain it can end up being.

 Zaku212 wrote:
So lads, I stopped following this back in 2008 as it seemed like a massive cluster-feth.

Am I right in thinking from reading this thread that there are plastics "on the way" but the rules have gone further to pot than they previously were?

You were right to stop back in 2008 (I did a few years earlier.. but then restarted around 2012) as it was a continuing mess. There was a bump with a new tweak of the rules after that along with a bump for a new style army book but that only lasted about a year. This is a good time to relook at the game since so much is changing in so little time. The new plastics are being produced right now with a premiere later this summer and the new rules that will accompany them just came out a few days ago. This is the first time in 20 years that HG has a completely new ruleset instead of a tweak of an existing one so you'll have to decide on your own if the changes are worthwhile. I recommend checking out the last half dozen kickstarter updates for looks at the painted plastics and drivethrurpg for the free download of the new rules (the July 4th update).

 warboss wrote:

 Zaku212 wrote:
So lads, I stopped following this back in 2008 as it seemed like a massive cluster-feth.

Am I right in thinking from reading this thread that there are plastics "on the way" but the rules have gone further to pot than they previously were?

You were right to stop back in 2008 (I did a few years earlier.. but then restarted around 2012) as it was a continuing mess. There was a bump with a new tweak of the rules after that along with a bump for a new style army book but that only lasted about a year. This is a good time to relook at the game since so much is changing in so little time. The new plastics are being produced right now with a premiere later this summer and the new rules that will accompany them just came out a few days ago. This is the first time in 20 years that HG has a completely new ruleset instead of a tweak of an existing one so you'll have to decide on your own if the changes are worthwhile. I recommend checking out the last half dozen kickstarter updates for looks at the painted plastics and drivethrurpg for the free download of the new rules (the July 4th update).

I have a quiet friday in work here so I'll read up on the brb, which is looking great so far for a free PDF release!

anything even close to an ETA on retail versions of the plastics being available?

Last I heard about the plastics making it to retail was sometime after GenCon, so maybe August or later this year.

sqir666 wrote:
Last I heard about the plastics making it to retail was sometime after GenCon, so maybe August or later this year.

Perfect excuse for me to get them as a bday gift to myself then

 Zaku212 wrote:

sqir666 wrote:
Last I heard about the plastics making it to retail was sometime after GenCon, so maybe August or later this year.

Perfect excuse for me to get them as a bday gift to myself then

Indeed!

I plan on gifting myself the new CEF stuff for Xmas.

No idea. They planned to start shipping from the KS comments to backers in North America later this month and just sent out (according to the KS comments) the bill for international backer shipping. After that, who knows. My guess (based on going to gencon for 10 years but not on any concrete info) is that they'll premiere it at gencon for the first week of retail sales (that they collect 100% of) and then ship it out to their single distributor and whatever stores have direct accounts with them the week after.

Wayland Games in the UK a few years back was announced as the official exclusive distributor for Europe... and barely reordered any out of stock items after the first year post annoucement. I looked last week and couldn't find HG products in any of the online stores in any quantity I looked at. The few products I did find looked like left overs after a clearance (like Wayland). For those wishing to buy these new products, it's going to apparently be an uphill battle and one that DP9 needs to work on very quickly. It will only be worse for you as an international player.


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http://dp9forum.com/index.php?showtopic=17468&page=6#entry301831

The entry here by Dave (the line developer and caster) is an example of what I find/found frustrating about working on playtesting with DP9. While he still is an improvement over bonkers and biased Saleem, he finally posts in a 6 page thread about a potential issue with balance... and skips 5 pages of constructive criticism and suggestions to say that he doesn't like the single word title used to describe the potential mechanic. He then goes on to address a side discussion that Albertorius casually mentioned in a throw away post and then politely started another thread for when that side discussion took on a life of its own and threatened to derail the original. Five pages of various suggestions ignored because he didn't like the word "scoped" to describe one suggestion (not my own but I do like it). He does admittedly say why he doesn't like that one word (and he does have a point) but comments nothing on the actual topic of discussion which is the mechanics/roll/balance of the rifle overall in the new rules. Ughh... That didn't happen with IceRaptor or Smilodon on their projects. I certainly was a vocal proponent of certain topics that didn't go my way but I always felt that the issue was at least considered appropriately even if I didn't agree with the final decision. All it took in that thread was for Dave to say something like "No, I like the rifle as is. I want it to be a medium range inaccurate but hard hitting single shot weapon as the dice roller results show." to both acknowledge the potential issue raised as well as put it to bed. Instead, we get the tabletop gaming equivalent of the princess and the pea. I saw that happen multiple times two years ago (for instance with the 4 player starter idea when I suggested it should be a 2 player one at a lower cost... or the massive UA squad spam that has now been cut in half with the very latest update... both of which were ignored completely or dismissed out of hand when suggested) and it seems that at least that hasn't changed. :( It's not a huge deal but in the end frustratingly consistent with DP9.

 warboss wrote:
He does admittedly say why he doesn't like that one word (and he does have a point) but comments nothing on the actual topic of discussion which is the mechanics/roll/balance of the rifle overall in the new rules. Ughh...

For what it's worth - the original concept was that ACs were reliable damage (+1D), rifles were higher damage with a situational boost (+1D when braced) and burst-ACs were lower damage, bigger spread weapons (+2D). This was back when you could choose to allocate your base dice pool to any targets within 3" of each other, so a AC could split fire or concentrate to ensure they did damage. The (rough) equivalencies were a strength autocannon:6 == rifle:8 == burst-autocannon:4 - but that was before heavy play-testing, so YMMV.

I'm sorta surprised that people are still hanging in here. I figured I'd find a ghost-town.

The product is in production, ready to launch, and there's been a stream of pre-production content. Why wouldn't we be here discussing it? I mean, I get why you or warboss or Albertorius might not be here, but some of us are kind of excited about this.

 IceRaptor wrote:

I'm sorta surprised that people are still hanging in here. I figured I'd find a ghost-town.

It was but it picked up a bit. I'd pop over there maybe once a week or so and only see a handfull of topics active in the last 24 hours (usually 2-4). I just recently logged in for the first time in over two years last month when I got a mess of rafm minis and had some questions. I always said I'd pop back in when the final results shook out the other end of the development pipeline so the timing for me was rather fortuitous.


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Nomeny wrote:
but some of us are kind of excited about this.

As well you should be since it is a big step and they have been doing better than the rinse, repeat, charge full price yet halfbaked premature releases of L&L and FM (and 2nd and 3rd edition RPG even). It's just that those of use who were there for some or all of those and saw the initial pie in the sky enthusiasm turn to frustration once the dust settled.. or even warned about it from the beginning seeing the problems ahead of time and watching them not be fixed... experience has shown us that we shouldn't count those chicks before they're hatched.

 warboss wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Psh. According to GW, AoS did fine financially, and is growing. This is entirely possible, given where WFB was.

I had forgotten about MonPoc, but it doesn't quite appeal to me. Maybe it doesn't have enough GrimDark?

Would you really expect GW to say otherwise? The few retailers who commented here said it was a stinker and the summer 3 month premiere dropped all their sales including 40k (iirc Mikhailia said 40% lost sales month over month). Gw only admits failure if they can pin it on an external source. As for Monpoc, it's about as grimdark as Spectreman and other 60s and 70s japanese scifi faire.

I'd expect them to say nothing, as they said basically nothing about Fantasy for years.

AOS released Summer 2015. 40k 7E released May 2014. That 40% year-over-year drop makes perfect sense when they don't have a major relaunch of THE only game that matters to a miniatures wargaming store. Quite frankly, GW launching 7E early in 2014 vs waiting until 2015-2016 was a bonus boon to the retailers. Those retailers whining might make more sense when compared to the last WFB launch. Or even 2013 when nothing launched (basically the same thing).


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 warboss wrote:
This is the first time in 20 years that HG has a completely new ruleset instead of a tweak of an existing one

It's been a while since I looked at the old HGB rules, and, yeah, the new version is much cleaner.

Nomeny wrote:
Why wouldn't we be here discussing it? I mean, I get why you or warboss or Albertorius might not be here, but some of us are kind of excited about this.

It wasn't a criticism - just an observation. I figured interest would have fizzled out here, since that tends to be the cycle. My surprise was to find Warboss and Albertorius still engaged, as I would have figured them to have moved on by now. You might presume malice where none exists?