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I think it's less "why can't they exist", and more "Why does THAT faction get it?" Particularly when the faction in question seems to have popped up out of nowhere as a major power. If the North, or the South were the ones making these I think you'd have alot fewer people crying foul.
2016/08/11 06:46:42
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] General Discussion Thread
Firebreak wrote: I guess what I mean is when we have conversations about things like, "Why can't Terra Nova X? We can already X!" it's worth remembering that a different picture was in mind when Terra Nova's Set of Rules* was created. The fact is we're going to see a day with better technology and manufacturing than Terra Nova has - because it was designed that way.
The HG universe has quite a bit of high-tech shenanegans in its background. There was an Earth country that had citizens living 250 years, genetic supersoldiers far better than GRELs, and flat out terraforming of planets (over several centuries, but still). Effectively, Rome fell several times in the history of their universe and stuff go lost, priorities changed. We're likely to see huge data losses of our own in near term future unless we adopt some better storage media (though there's some promising techs for that in the works, but it's a matter of actually adopting them).
Mmmpi wrote: I think it's less "why can't they exist", and more "Why does THAT faction get it?" Particularly when the faction in question seems to have popped up out of nowhere as a major power. If the North, or the South were the ones making these I think you'd have alot fewer people crying foul.
It is mainly a question of "why's" and "how's" most of the time, yes. And yes, mainly the problem is that the NuCoal, as a whole and as its now in the official setting, basically is a really big "because I say so" clump with a list tailor made to make the best use out of the (then current) ruleset.
Firebreak wrote: I guess what I mean is when we have conversations about things like, "Why can't Terra Nova X? We can already X!" it's worth remembering that a different picture was in mind when Terra Nova's Set of Rules* was created. The fact is we're going to see a day with better technology and manufacturing than Terra Nova has - because it was designed that way.
The HG universe has quite a bit of high-tech shenanegans in its background. There was an Earth country that had citizens living 250 years, genetic supersoldiers far better than GRELs, and flat out terraforming of planets (over several centuries, but still). Effectively, Rome fell several times in the history of their universe and stuff go lost, priorities changed. We're likely to see huge data losses of our own in near term future unless we adopt some better storage media (though there's some promising techs for that in the works, but it's a matter of actually adopting them).
It certainly has, but as it has been said, a lot of it works the way it does because it was done in the 90s, and as everyone else, well, they didn't really get things right (Where the feth is my flying car? Yes, I do have secondary brains that are connected to the shared conscience of the world, but come on! ).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/11 07:03:12
2016/08/11 11:39:05
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] General Discussion Thread
Firebreak wrote: I guess what I mean is when we have conversations about things like, "Why can't Terra Nova X? We can already X!" it's worth remembering that a different picture was in mind when Terra Nova's Set of Rules* was created. The fact is we're going to see a day with better technology and manufacturing than Terra Nova has - because it was designed that way.
The HG universe has quite a bit of high-tech shenanegans in its background. There was an Earth country that had citizens living 250 years, genetic supersoldiers far better than GRELs, and flat out terraforming of planets (over several centuries, but still). Effectively, Rome fell several times in the history of their universe and stuff go lost, priorities changed. We're likely to see huge data losses of our own in near term future unless we adopt some better storage media (though there's some promising techs for that in the works, but it's a matter of actually adopting them).
Absolutely, and I think that's a big part of what makes (/made) the game work so well. Gates exist, GRELs exist, hover laser tanks exist, but for the most part, Terra Nova, the primary focus, uses cows to plow fields. Gears are, even in their own setting, comparatively low-tech, or perhaps "normalized" is a better way of putting it. It's one of the things that allows us to have such detailed conversations about what a realistic production level for X country is.
But the hallmarks of the 90s are by no means Heavy Gear's fault or failure. Infinity is going to look as dated in 20 years, too. That's something historical wargames never have to worry about, I suppose.
It certainly has, but as it has been said, a lot of it works the way it does because it was done in the 90s, and as everyone else, well, they didn't really get things right (Where the feth is my flying car?
The lack of flying cars is proof that we aren't completely stupid. We can barely trust most people to drive in TWO dimensions.
Firebreak wrote: But the hallmarks of the 90s are by no means Heavy Gear's fault or failure. Infinity is going to look as dated in 20 years, too. That's something historical wargames never have to worry about, I suppose.
I dunno. When was the last time you chose to play a 1970s-era chit-and-hex wargame as anything but a nostalgia-fuelled lark? Even by the mid-80s / 90s, they were showing their age.
Firebreak wrote: But the hallmarks of the 90s are by no means Heavy Gear's fault or failure. Infinity is going to look as dated in 20 years, too. That's something historical wargames never have to worry about, I suppose.
I dunno. When was the last time you chose to play a 1970s-era chit-and-hex wargame as anything but a nostalgia-fuelled lark? Even by the mid-80s / 90s, they were showing their age.
Well... I played ASL a month ago, And Blue Max and OGRE three weeks ago. Still great games.
That said, Firebreak is not talking about the game, but about the setting.
It certainly has, but as it has been said, a lot of it works the way it does because it was done in the 90s, and as everyone else, well, they didn't really get things right (Where the feth is my flying car?
The lack of flying cars is proof that we aren't completely stupid. We can barely trust most people to drive in TWO dimensions.
Whaaaat? You're talking logic and flying cars in the same phraseee? Who are you
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/08/11 18:14:37
2016/08/11 21:04:50
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] General Discussion Thread
Hard hitting interview with Robert posted up by Gamer Goggles from gencon where we find out about the "blessing in disguise" delays that cut two funded stretch goals due to a series of mistakes on DP9's part. Deep, slow breaths, JohnHwang.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/11 21:05:20
Well, I just found an opponent who's about 20miles from me (The same exact distance I'm away from my most commonly patronized FLGS). Found him/her/ze on Rumbl of all things.
Don't even know if this person will accept yet though.
Yay Rumbl?
If it works out this will be my 4th game, and hopefully 2nd that will actually get finished.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/11 22:36:41
2016/08/11 22:42:07
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] General Discussion Thread
warboss wrote: Hard hitting interview with Robert posted up by Gamer Goggles from gencon where we find out about the "blessing in disguise" delays that cut two funded stretch goals due to a series of mistakes on DP9's part. Deep, slow breaths, JohnHwang.
Ten minutes hearing Robert yap about? Yeah, not happening. Someone got a cliff's notes?
Mmmpi wrote: Well, I just found an opponent who's about 20miles from me (The same exact distance I'm away from my most commonly patronized FLGS). Found him/her/ze on Rumbl of all things.
Don't even know if this person will accept yet though.
Yay Rumbl?
If it works out this will be my 4th game, and hopefully 2nd that will actually get finished.
If he just steals your kidneys, can I have your minis?
Also yes I meant about the setting having the hallmarks of the 90s, thanks for that catch Albertorious. Though I suppose even historical games display more nuance nowadays than they would have 30 or 40 years ago.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/12 01:49:33
warboss wrote: Hard hitting interview with Robert posted up by Gamer Goggles from gencon where we find out about the "blessing in disguise" delays that cut two funded stretch goals due to a series of mistakes on DP9's part. Deep, slow breaths, JohnHwang.
Ten minutes hearing Robert yap about? Yeah, not happening. Someone got a cliff's notes?
Here you go:
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Automatically Appended Next Post: Well, I was trying to attach a picture, but the "broken link" symbol seems appropriate.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/08/12 02:49:04
Mmmpi wrote:Well, I just found an opponent who's about 20miles from me (The same exact distance I'm away from my most commonly patronized FLGS). Found him/her/ze on Rumbl of all things.
Don't even know if this person will accept yet though.
Yay Rumbl?
If it works out this will be my 4th game, and hopefully 2nd that will actually get finished.
Congrats and good luck! Hopefully you'll have a steady opponent.
Albertorius wrote:
warboss wrote: Hard hitting interview with Robert posted up by Gamer Goggles from gencon where we find out about the "blessing in disguise" delays that cut two funded stretch goals due to a series of mistakes on DP9's part. Deep, slow breaths, JohnHwang.
Ten minutes hearing Robert yap about? Yeah, not happening. Someone got a cliff's notes?
Nothing new was said. Just some explanations of some (not all) the issues blessings. There is a newer video on the same channel with Wunji talking about the landship game with some new (for me) info that the gears are expected to be roughly 1/500 scale.
warboss wrote: Hard hitting interview with Robert posted up by Gamer Goggles from gencon where we find out about the "blessing in disguise" delays that cut two funded stretch goals due to a series of mistakes on DP9's part. Deep, slow breaths, JohnHwang.
Ten minutes hearing Robert yap about? Yeah, not happening. Someone got a cliff's notes?
Nothing new was said. Just some explanations of some (not all) the issues blessings. There is a newer video on the same channel with Wunji talking about the landship game with some new (for me) info that the gears are expected to be roughly 1/500 scale.
Well, that's 10 minutes of my life that were well spent then, thanks for the sacrifice .
If the Gears are the ones they've shown in pics besides the new landships, they're too big by half. They seem bigger than the old Fleet Scale stuff.
Drahazar1 wrote: so looking for opinions what are peoples opinion of the new rules are they and how did NuCoal and PRDF turn out in it?
I haven't played it yet but from a reading and watching GMG videos it seems a bit faster so that you can reasonably finish a 10-12 model game in less than two hours. I don't think it's streamlined or deadly enough though to fit in the higher model counts (20+ figs) they were initially aiming for during the kickstarter in a reasonable time frame but I have yet to see/participate in a game of that size. About 100-150pts seems to be the current sweetspot albeit with a very low sample size to drawn from.
Nucoal got bloated "variety" with their subfaction rules that their limited model variety can't give them. All in all, I think they get the most varied and powerful subfaction benefits that they pay little or nothing frequently for. It's not bad enough that I'd say they're broken but the power level on a subfaction rules basis seems ramped up for them with the most room for abuse that I saw from the various sublists. Paxton gets a boat load of cheap (1pt) ECM on almost the cheapest gear possible (the basic warrior). Got a gear with no good shot to take? Activate ECM defense (iirc no roll required as its automatic) and your whole squad just got an extra dice for defense for most shots. Yes, Paxton squads carry instantly deployable forest where ever they go (that iirc stacks with actual cover). Other forces have to buy a relatively expensive recon gear that takes up the support option to get that but Paxton gets the option baked into most squads for 1pt. Again, I haven't played but I see those issues as potential ones (along with some discounted benefits for Talons) in the future.
In other words, I think they turned out better than average for NuCoal and PRDF players, one of which includes me (NuCoal).
Peace River indeed got a lot of cheap ECM. This was always the case, but now ECM is more useful. Note that any army can manage this trick by bringing a Recon gear as part of a support unit - sometimes with more dice - but it's more expensive and you don't get the redundancy.
What Peace River doesn't get is much in the way of good Target Designation. Their only TD:1 gear is a Command upgrade, and otherwise you rely on Observer Teams (TD:1) or Drones and Elans (TD:0). Not an army that can make good use of guided weaponry.
It's the utility of having any standard trooper or elite gear/warrior do it that is the real benefit. With a dedicated recon gear, you're having to choose between doing what it was actually meant to do (TD, scan, boost something else, FO, etc) and ECM defense... with paxton, any gear that has nothing better to do can instead potentially benefit the whole team on the fly as needed. If I were a paxton player, I'd add a simple warrior to every squad just for that reason. YMMV.
I wish they had introduced some sort of bonus for the other trooper gears as initially imagined to keep them all at the same cost. Paxton got ECM and better EW for 1pt, Nucoal got faster speeds in return for fragility.. and the polar forces got... well.. squat. Something along the lines of standard panzerfaust or grenades for one polar force like the north and some equivalent for the south. That was at least temporarily the plan but then the only thing that shook out the other end was benefits for the badlands. :(
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/12 17:45:50
John Prins wrote: Peace River indeed got a lot of cheap ECM. This was always the case, but now ECM is more useful. Note that any army can manage this trick by bringing a Recon gear as part of a support unit - sometimes with more dice - but it's more expensive and you don't get the redundancy.
If ECM is much more powerful than before, maybe the price (particularly when you can spam it) should be revisited?
What Peace River doesn't get is much in the way of good Target Designation. Their only TD:1 gear is a Command upgrade, and otherwise you rely on Observer Teams (TD:1) or Drones and Elans (TD:0). Not an army that can make good use of guided weaponry.
Ok, let's see: They have TD: 1 for the Tag upgrade for the Command Skirmisher, also on the Dragonfly and on Observer Teams, Elans have TD: 0.
On the other hand, Peace River doesn´t have than many Guided weapons (LABMs in one Argos variant, ATMs in some Argos, Cats, Coyotes and Red Bull variants, and the Dragonfly, but that one has it's own TD, LAVMs for infantry as everyone else, a single GM in all the list and SAMs on the Dragonfly), only one of those can't be shot directly and all of the designs they are mounted on have variants with non Guided options to do more or less the same, so on the whole I'd say the won't be hurting much in that regard.
warboss wrote: It's the utility of having any standard trooper or elite gear/warrior do it that is the real benefit. With a dedicated recon gear, you're having to choose between doing what it was actually meant to do (TD, scan, boost something else, FO, etc) and ECM defense... with paxton, any gear that has nothing better to do can instead potentially benefit the whole team on the fly as needed. If I were a paxton player, I'd add a simple warrior to every squad just for that reason. YMMV.
I wish they had introduced some sort of bonus for the other trooper gears as initially imagined to keep them all at the same cost. Paxton got ECM and better EW for 1pt, Nucoal got faster speeds in return for fragility.. and the polar forces got... well.. squat. Something along the lines of standard panzerfaust or grenades for one polar force like the north and some equivalent for the south. That was at least temporarily the plan but then the only thing that shook out the other end was benefits for the badlands. :(
Hunters and Hunter UC's get a LPF, though the Gunner, Assault, and Destroyer don't. Jager's get LHG's, though the rest of the variants don't. I think (but haven't checked yet) that more of the Hunter and Jager varients had LPF/LHG's in the last copy of the rules. If those could be made standard to all hunters and jagers, it might be worth it.
Thanks for pointing that out. I need glasses apparently as they both hunters/jaegers got that stuff without me noticing. I'd still have preferred ECM defense to require a roll instead of automatically working but at that point I'm admittedly nitpicking.
Well, that's 10 minutes of my life that were well spent then, thanks for the sacrifice .
If the Gears are the ones they've shown in pics besides the new landships, they're too big by half. They seem bigger than the old Fleet Scale stuff.
Glad I could help. Just to be clear, I didn't see any pics of the new gears for the landship game but rather wunji just said they'd be 1/500. I don't know if he had examples there or not and/or if the pics are floating around on Brandon's facebook group but I didn't see any (admittedly on my mobile device so small screen). At 1/500 or roughly about a third the size of a current gear, they're probably not going to work for what I had intended (namely a 6mm epic 40k style travel heavy gear mass battle game variant).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/08/12 22:13:45
It has one less power (6 vs 7), but actually has a range outside of melee and is AP2 vs AP1. So in raw damage the LVB is better against armor up to 7, while the LPF is probably better against heaver armor. Or is at least more consistent. That's without factoring in range of course.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/13 08:59:57
Ok, let's see: They have TD: 1 for the Tag upgrade for the Command Skirmisher, also on the Dragonfly and on Observer Teams, Elans have TD: 0.
Yes, that's why I qualified the statement with 'gear'. Mostly because it's hard to get TD in the same squad as a unit with guided weapons unless it's infantry. Your only real option here is to take a 4-gear RC squad and put your guided weapons in the support unit.
Note you can take the PSBM army and select southern RC units for Iguanas and even a Silverscale, but then you're borrowing from other army lists to patch holes in your own. I mean, Silverscales are exactly good enough to justify doing it (TD:2 and Sensor Boom), but it's cheese.
On the other hand, Peace River doesn´t have than many Guided weapons (LABMs in one Argos variant, ATMs in some Argos, Cats, Coyotes and Red Bull variants, and the Dragonfly, but that one has it's own TD, LAVMs for infantry as everyone else, a single GM in all the list and SAMs on the Dragonfly), only one of those can't be shot directly and all of the designs they are mounted on have variants with non Guided options to do more or less the same, so on the whole I'd say the won't be hurting much in that regard.
The Skirmisher TAG used to be just a variant, I have no idea why it became a +CMD gear. Guided weapons certainly aren't common in Peace River, but the amount of jumping through hoops you have to do just to get TD:1 is stupid.
And taking an entire RC squad for each guided weapon seems inefficient.
On an unrelated note, I'm trying to decide if I should just magnetize everything, or if there are a few builds that are ubiquitous enough that I can make a fixed version.
I already have several Hunters and Jagers with LAC's as unit fillers.
John Prins wrote: The Skirmisher TAG used to be just a variant, I have no idea why it became a +CMD gear. Guided weapons certainly aren't common in Peace River, but the amount of jumping through hoops you have to do just to get TD:1 is stupid.
It certainly is weird, and I might be misremembering here, but didn't the regular Skirmisher have a basic TD? If so, I'd like to hear the reasons for it. As to using polar designs, well, I've never seen much problem with it, tbh. Paxton Arms did sold a lot of stuff, but never were one for throwing good money after bad. If they already had polar Gears, throwing them out would not seem sensible. But of course, that an RPGer perspective, and from the wargame perspective I guess that they needed recognizable stuff.
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Mmmpi wrote: And taking an entire RC squad for each guided weapon seems inefficient.
On an unrelated note, I'm trying to decide if I should just magnetize everything, or if there are a few builds that are ubiquitous enough that I can make a fixed version.
I already have several Hunters and Jagers with LAC's as unit fillers.
Never got to magnetize HG stuff, too damn fiddly and annoying. I just assembled the stuff I liked/wanted and played count-as when needed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/08/17 06:20:50
2016/08/18 19:23:05
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] General Discussion Thread
John Prins wrote: The Skirmisher TAG used to be just a variant, I have no idea why it became a +CMD gear. Guided weapons certainly aren't common in Peace River, but the amount of jumping through hoops you have to do just to get TD:1 is stupid.
It certainly is weird, and I might be misremembering here, but didn't the regular Skirmisher have a basic TD? If so, I'd like to hear the reasons for it. As to using polar designs, well, I've never seen much problem with it, tbh. Paxton Arms did sold a lot of stuff, but never were one for throwing good money after bad. If they already had polar Gears, throwing them out would not seem sensible. But of course, that an RPGer perspective, and from the wargame perspective I guess that they needed recognizable stuff.
.
Well, in L&L edition the Skirmisher just had ECM3, and you could get the TD as an upgrade. In Blood Debt, same deal. Suddenly NuBlitz it's a +CMD unit, meaning 1 per unit and it's exactly where you don't want it, on your unit commander.
Note that the Skirmisher is always described as a long range patrol gear, while a lot of other, similar gears are described as 'scout' or 'recon'. Maybe PR wants to rely on hoppers for TD? Who knows?
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