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 mdauben wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

...huh. Just for reference, a 40k Rhino is 115x75x50...so that thing is almost twice as long and about 25% wider and higher... for a 1/144 game. and $85, because their stuff is not crazy expensive as it is already.

Not that DP9 stuff isn't generally more expensive than their competitors, but in all fairness you are comparing a mass produced plastic model to a limited run resin model (not limited as in LE but limited in the number of people willing to buy it)

Right. That doesn't sound stupid at all. Something Rhino sized is already too fething big for that scale, so what the hell, let's more than double it.

The size of the vehicle does match the fluff, FWIW. Admittedly, it does seem stupid big for the scale of HG, but then I think a lot of the bigger Forge World Imperial Armour vehicles are stupid big for the scale of 40K. Some people just like ginormous tanks.

Hum, I was comparing the dimensions of the Rhino, not the prices. Were I to do that I would agree with you... with the caveat that GW doesn't price their stuff following that logic, but the "we're the Rolls Royce of miniatures gaming, so we charge as much as we fething want", so... well, let's just say that if you only look comparatively affordable when compared with GW, you're in trouble.

As to the other... don't get me started, or I will tell you, extensively and in detail, what I think about having knights, superheavies, titans and all the other melon-fething Epic stuff in 40k games where it does not belong >_>.

GW prices somewhat in proportion to points, with a small bump if the item is metal.

 Albertorius wrote:
Hum, I was comparing the dimensions of the Rhino, not the prices.

My mistake. You did mention both them both (dimensions & price) in the same statement, though, which is why I evidently misunderstood you.

to do that I would agree with you... with the caveat that GW doesn't price their stuff following that logic, but the "we're the Rolls Royce of miniatures gaming, so we charge as much as we fething want", so... well, let's just say that if you only look comparatively affordable when compared with GW, you're in trouble.

Not quite sure the point you are trying to make here? My only "logic" in the previous post was that big, resin models are more expensive than "similar" sized mass produced plastic models. That's true whether we are talking about the DP9 or GW/FW.

As to the other... don't get me started, or I will tell you, extensively and in detail, what I think about having knights, superheavies, titans and all the other melon-fething Epic stuff in 40k games where it does not belong >_>.

You're preaching to the choir on that issue, brother!

 mdauben wrote:
My mistake. You did mention both them both (dimensions & price) in the same statement, though, which is why I evidently misunderstood you.

Fair enough ^_^

Not quite sure the point you are trying to make here? My only "logic" in the previous post was that big, resin models are more expensive than "similar" sized mass produced plastic models. That's true whether we are talking about the DP9 or GW/FW.

That's actually not always true. With the exception of some of the Horus Heresy series minis, FW and GW characters are very similarly priced, even though FW ones are resin and GW ones are plastic (and the HH ones tend to have humongously huge resin bases to try ans justify their prices, which puts them on the same range that mega character plastic kits from GW).

My point is that big, resin models by DP9 and GW/FW tend to be comparatively more expensive than similar items from other companies, as a general thing. And that being "comparable or a bit cheaper" with GW/FW in similar stuff is not exactly something good, because the rest of the miniatures world use to be cheaper, with the clear exception of boutique minis, but the general quality of DP9's sculpts does not justify those prices (their resin was good the last time I bought it, though).

And then, of course, is the fact that you can only buy their stuff directly from them, which in my case, and I expect that in the case of anyone from this side of the ocean, puts them at a significant disadvantage, because it can as much as double the actual price to pay.

You're preaching to the choir on that issue, brother!

Heya guys, I'm just kind of jumping into this thread, but for the first time I'm going to be trying my hand at some Heavy Gear with a local group.

2nd edition was the last time I looked at any fluff and I didn't really actively play even back then.

Can anyone give me advice for starting out? I'm kind of having a hard time even figuring out which books are current in this line.

Also, which faction is the most mad-max?

 Swabby wrote:
Heya guys, I'm just kind of jumping into this thread, but for the first time I'm going to be trying my hand at some Heavy Gear with a local group.

2nd edition was the last time I looked at any fluff and I didn't really actively play even back then.

Can anyone give me advice for starting out? I'm kind of having a hard time even figuring out which books are current in this line.

A lot really depends on which group you want to start with, honestly.

In regards to books, it has been a while, but they were working on a living manual for Blitz at one point available on DriveThruRPG. I haven't looked it up in a year, though.

 Swabby wrote:
Also, which faction is the most mad-max?

The Leagueless are the most dystopian group, I believe. A bit hard to build straight out, kind of like Mercenaries in Warmachine. The North and the South have sub-factions which tend to rely on cheaper numbers then elite units, such as the North's Western Frontier Protectorate, and the South's MILICIA or ESE (if I remember that right).

CEF, the North, and the South are all the big names in the conflict. The Black Talons are the anti-CEF black ops group, relying on elite units to do the job. Peace River and NuCoal are both "small" factions which have a lot of punch to them. So, in general those don't generally qualify, but you can always paint them up to look a bit more "Mad Max".

 Swabby wrote:
Heya guys, I'm just kind of jumping into this thread, but for the first time I'm going to be trying my hand at some Heavy Gear with a local group.

2nd edition was the last time I looked at any fluff and I didn't really actively play even back then.

Can anyone give me advice for starting out? I'm kind of having a hard time even figuring out which books are current in this line.

Also, which faction is the most mad-max?

IIRC this should be the current rulebook. It's supposed to be a living ruleset with yearly updates but I haven't kept track of the rules for a few years so I don't know when the next one is coming up.

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/144759/Heavy-Gear-Blitz-Tabletop-Wargaming--Living-Rulebook

There is also a quick start ruleset on drivethrurpg last I checked but I'm not sure what the difference is between the two. As for Mad Max, the faction that would best go with that theme would be leagueless... think desert gypsies who prowl the badlands with somewhat out of date but rugged equipment from most of the other factions. I don't know how well their army building translated over to the post kickstarter ruleset though.

http://dp9.com/content/leagueless

Yeah, that's the current rulebook Warboss linked to, they recently updated it back in October so it should be safe to print out without needing to reprint it for a good while.

Best place to start out is either the 2-player starter or the plastic starter sets. None of them are particularly Mad-Max, but they'll all make 100 point armies and possibly stretch to 150 depending on the force (those are the 2 standard size games, 100 and 150). There's a lot of people that dislike the plastics, but having done a basic 100 point force for each i think they're great

Out of curiosity, how many people have active groups that play Heavy Gear? I've always liked the miniatures and the background, but it seems that no matter where I go I can't find anyone to play against.

Has anyone successfully started an HG group, and if so, how did you swing that?

 godswildcard wrote:
Out of curiosity, how many people have active groups that play Heavy Gear? I've always liked the miniatures and the background, but it seems that no matter where I go I can't find anyone to play against.

Has anyone successfully started an HG group, and if so, how did you swing that?

I have a fairly active group in my area. Ironically most of the people I found in my area where already interested in Heavy Gear but could never find others that played until I popped up. I literally demoed a lot during a few conventions last year and kept showing up to the game store the same day/time consistently. I've now run a short league for them and we're talking about running a campaign soon.

Also, funnily enough I know of a few people in your area that have Heavy Gear stuff. Send me a PM and I'll do my best to get you in touch with them.

I swung by the official forums for the first time in a while (still getting used to the new forum software change) and found an interesting thread:

http://dp9forum.com/index.php?/topic/18237-squad-based-attacks-alpha-fast-dice-rolling-mechanics-discussion/&do=findComment&comment=310766

My goal here was to show that there is work going behind the scenes, and that often in development we go to places where the rules will not fit into the regular paradigm. Baconradar is correct. This is an attempt to allow squad based play, a thing that is really difficult to do. In the current Heavy Gear there are a lot of barriers to entry for new players, the level of complication of the rules aside. One is the speed and complexity of the game. There is a lot going on and it is very hard to evaluate all the choices you can make.

This rule won't see beta in HGB because it adds more complexity rather than simplifying it.

It is clear that Heavy Gear Blitz is a skirmish game, and most of the players like it like that. Which is cool. Heavy Gear blitz will always be a well supported game for Dream Pod 9. However we profit by selling miniatures, and sometimes you just want to play a big game without it taking a day and a half to play.

It would be great if there was a rules set that allowed larger armies to play. It would be simpler rules set to appeal to a larger base of players but this is something Dream Pod 9 needs, more players. Heavy Gear Blitz is a good rules set but it is not an easy rules set.

-Dave

Dave posted some overly complex rules for "fast dice rolling" squad based activations that paradoxically would apparently slow the game down. Full disclosure, I didn't try testing it myself but, just going off of a read of the rules, I agree with the general thread consensus and Dave's own later admission bolded above that it adds complexity despite the thread title. Regardless, the main reason it spock'ed my eyebrow is the second part of the bolded section (my emphasis) about HGB being a skirmish game despite the desire to sell minis. Full disclosure... I prefer HG as a skirmish game and my own house rules that I started my blog linked in my sig specifically to publish dealt with turning the old HG FM Blitz rules into a better skirmish game. The key part though is that when I was brought on by Gerrit to playtest what ultimately morphed into the LRB rules that he told me the goal and indeed the original pitch for the rules was to make HG more mass battle.

 IceRaptor wrote:


The original 'goal' was 30 vs. 30 in 3-4 hours, with 20 v 20 in 2-3 hours a reasonable compromise. Initial testing showed that 15v15 in 2-3 hours was a better 'feel', not sacrificing too much grit but also allowing some simplifications. However, those were games intended to be run very 'objective light', so YMMV.

Despite a paradoxical noticeable decrease in lethality as well as simultaneous increase in complexity over the proof of concept work Ice Raptor did until the the alpha release, the goal was scaled down a bit but mostly still the same:

A game should take two hours with forces between 8 and 20 models (2-4 units). This of course should be modified by the skill level of the players.

http://dp9forum.com/index.php?/topic/16531-design-intentionphilosophy/&do=findComment&comment=288957

By the final release (at least in the latest version July 2016 I downloaded of the LRB), it was down to:

Heavy Gear provides a rule set that enables two players, with a force of 100 points each (approximately 10 models), to play a
game in two hours or less. These rules are intended to allow a fast-paced, yet involved, play experience.

If the goal was to have larger model count games (along with the corresponding sales to facilitate them), then the rules shouldn't have been made more complex yet less lethal. YMMV. I did some initial theory crafting a few years back on simplifying the rules further including squad activation for a potential blog and Gear Up! article but my enthusiasm waned since. I still think it's possible as a supplement but it will require significantly more than just a cumbersome shooting rule to incorporate.

 warboss wrote:
I did some initial theory crafting a few years back on simplifying the rules further including squad activation for a potential blog and Gear Up! article but my enthusiasm waned since.

OTOH, I spent a HUGE amount of time radically simplifying the HGB rules to produce KOG light. I doubt the Pod would be interested in licensing my Kl engine, though...

On that we agree. Any simplification for mass battles would/should be based on the current rules for better or worse. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know which though personally. I can't even remember half of what I scribbled down by hand on some sheets of printer paper a couple years ago in my own attempt at a compatible system.

It's not really possible to be completely "compatible" and an order of magnitude simpler. What is possible is to have something that broadly captures the overall feel and general flow. It's just that HGB is so very clunky and rooted in early RPG Tactical that the expectation of detail makes it really difficult.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
It's not really possible to be completely "compatible" and an order of magnitude simpler. What is possible is to have something that broadly captures the overall feel and general flow.

Agreed. What I was referring to was using most of the same mechanics and being able to "convert" existing blitz models within a few seconds to a simplified mass battle version. For instance, I still had armor/hull but there were half the number of boxes roughly for each model; the mechanism for determining MOS and damage was the same overall but with specific edge case rules like AP were changed. The nublitz flavor was still there and instantly recognizable but was overhauled to less time and be more lethal.

Yeah, that works!

But that's not what the Pod wants, I think.

So, the new kickstarter went up a little while ago.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/heavygearblitz/heavy-gear-blitz-utopia-armed-forces-plastic-minia

probably not going to join this one.

 Mmmpi wrote:


probably not going to join this one.

I might throw $10 on the pile as goodwill, but I really never had any interest in the Utopia faction. I always thought they were bad mecha designs with good drone designs. Utopia would have been far more interesting with gear-strider sized units controlling units of drones, it also could have explained how Terra Nova got gearstrider tech (reverse engineered from CEF Utopian auxiliaries or from Black Talon spy reports). But that's just me.

Hard pass, no surprise.
____

For the KS to fund at $30k, the Pod needs 430+ out of the 238 previous pledges.

I'll be generous and put 169 as the over/under.

What say you?

I don't own any Utopia minis so I'm in, but I'm guessing it won't fund. Which is a little sad, but it seems to be a matter of a lack of showmanship. The goods are there it just needs to be spun a little.

 Mmmpi wrote:
So, the new kickstarter went up a little while ago.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/heavygearblitz/heavy-gear-blitz-utopia-armed-forces-plastic-minia

probably not going to join this one.

Not a game I'd want to invest more money into, nowadays, and much less directly into the company, so...

Neither the backstory nor the models (especially!) of Utopia appeal to me so I'm out. Besides, I have several thousand points (old blitz scale) of painted figs from three different factions already that I'm not using. I wish them luck and hopefully existing and potential Utopian players show up and pledge en masse (if they exist) because I suspect this truly is the last chance to expand their faction if it doesn't fund.

Looks like that KS is doing rather poorly already. Can't say I'm very surprised at all, although it's still quite amusing to watch happening.

 Mmmpi wrote:
So, the new kickstarter went up a little while ago.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/heavygearblitz/heavy-gear-blitz-utopia-armed-forces-plastic-minia

probably not going to join this one.

 John Prins wrote:
I might throw $10 on the pile as goodwill, but I really never had any interest in the Utopia faction.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Hard pass, no surprise.

Huh. Guess I'm the odd one, I pledged the Commander Level ($175CAN) as this looks like and interesting and different faction.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

For the KS to fund at $30k, the Pod needs 430+ out of the 238 previous pledges.

I pulled out of the previous KS before it even closed, just because I was only interested in Utopia and it became clear the campaign would never break enough stretch goals to build a reasonable Utopia force. I think they put this one together betters, so hopefully it will get a better response. This new KS has the full Utopia force available in the basic pledges, so if they can just reach the basic level its good. The stretch goal this time are just duplicates of the sprues in the base campaign.

 warboss wrote:
Neither the backstory nor the models (especially!) of Utopia appeal to me so I'm out. Besides, I have several thousand points (old blitz scale) of painted figs from three different factions already that I'm not using. I wish them luck and hopefully existing and potential Utopian players show up and pledge en masse (if they exist) because I suspect this truly is the last chance to expand their faction if it doesn't fund.

Well, they could always pay themselves for it. It is something people do, I hear.

Albertorius wrote:

 warboss wrote:
Neither the backstory nor the models (especially!) of Utopia appeal to me so I'm out. Besides, I have several thousand points (old blitz scale) of painted figs from three different factions already that I'm not using. I wish them luck and hopefully existing and potential Utopian players show up and pledge en masse (if they exist) because I suspect this truly is the last chance to expand their faction if it doesn't fund.

Well, they could always pay themselves for it. It is something people do, I hear.

Luddite. That's so second millenium business think, Albertorius.

mdauben wrote:Huh. Guess I'm the odd one, I pledged the Commander Level ($175CAN) as this looks like and interesting and different faction.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

For the KS to fund at $30k, the Pod needs 430+ out of the 238 previous pledges.

I pulled out of the previous KS before it even closed, just because I was only interested in Utopia and it became clear the campaign would never break enough stretch goals to build a reasonable Utopia force. I think they put this one together betters, so hopefully it will get a better response. This new KS has the full Utopia force available in the basic pledges, so if they can just reach the basic level its good. The stretch goal this time are just duplicates of the sprues in the base campaign.

Nothing odd about that. If you're interested in the faction, pledge for it. I wholeheartedly support you putting your money where your mouth is and this campaign is tailor made for customers like you (no sarcasm intended). I personally don't think that there are enough folks like yourself to make it financially viable though buit that's another story. I guess we'll see in a few days if that is the case since we all know the *real* funding period to determine cancellation is the first couple of days and not the actual listed one. I do think though that this will be the last hurrah for Utopia if it doesn't fund. YMMV.

 Albertorius wrote:

Well, they could always pay themselves for it. It is something people do, I hear.

I know, right? Just put the minis up for sale instead of holding them hostage to a Kickstarter for the least popular faction. There's several Peace River minis being held up for the same reason. Dream Pod 9 has completely abandoned regular releases for Kickstarters, and I can't see the logic to it. Games live or die based on the release schedule, and if the KS fulfillment date is real, they won't release anything until early 2019. The last regular release for the game seems to have been Nov 2015 (Titan attack helicopter). The first KS released in Sept 2016, so it will be over 2 years between any releases and over 3 years from a regular release (and more than that since I made an order from DP9, because there's no new stuff to order).

 mdauben wrote:
Huh. Guess I'm the odd one, I pledged the Commander Level ($175CAN) as this looks like and interesting and different faction.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

For the KS to fund at $30k, the Pod needs 430+ out of the 238 previous pledges.

I pulled out of the previous KS before it even closed, just because I was only interested in Utopia

That's entirely reasonable, but I don't think that Utopia is as compelling for those who got in based on the original N/S designs, which is why this campaign is not going to fund. But keep your pledge in, as that's what *you* want.

warboss wrote:Luddite. That's so second millenium business think, Albertorius.

Guilty as charged. I keep looking at their KS and say to myself "you know... I'm gonna spend about that much on reforming the kitchen. I could totally pay for that, right now". IMHO, KS's original purpose has been completely perverted, by now.

John Prins wrote:I know, right? Just put the minis up for sale instead of holding them hostage to a Kickstarter for the least popular faction. There's several Peace River minis being held up for the same reason. Dream Pod 9 has completely abandoned regular releases for Kickstarters, and I can't see the logic to it. Games live or die based on the release schedule, and if the KS fulfillment date is real, they won't release anything until early 2019. The last regular release for the game seems to have been Nov 2015 (Titan attack helicopter). The first KS released in Sept 2016, so it will be over 2 years between any releases and over 3 years from a regular release (and more than that since I made an order from DP9, because there's no new stuff to order).

Wow. Really? I know I haven't been paying attention, but... that is utterly ridiculous. You mean to tell me that a company that nowadays basically rely on selling to the fans (more or less like Palladium, come to think about it) is not actually releasing new stuff so that the aforementioned fans could buy stuff? That's... something, alright.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 mdauben wrote:
Huh. Guess I'm the odd one, I pledged the Commander Level ($175CAN) as this looks like and interesting and different faction.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

For the KS to fund at $30k, the Pod needs 430+ out of the 238 previous pledges.

I pulled out of the previous KS before it even closed, just because I was only interested in Utopia

That's entirely reasonable, but I don't think that Utopia is as compelling for those who got in based on the original N/S designs, which is why this campaign is not going to fund. But keep your pledge in, as that's what *you* want.

Indeed; mdauben, in your case it makes absolutely perfect sense. It's just that I think you're a minority.

 John Prins wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

Well, they could always pay themselves for it. It is something people do, I hear.

I know, right? Just put the minis up for sale instead of holding them hostage to a Kickstarter for the least popular faction. There's several Peace River minis being held up for the same reason. Dream Pod 9 has completely abandoned regular releases for Kickstarters, and I can't see the logic to it. Games live or die based on the release schedule, and if the KS fulfillment date is real, they won't release anything until early 2019. The last regular release for the game seems to have been Nov 2015 (Titan attack helicopter). The first KS released in Sept 2016, so it will be over 2 years between any releases and over 3 years from a regular release (and more than that since I made an order from DP9, because there's no new stuff to order).

I suppose your point depends on whether those sales through normal retail channels (or more accurately direct from DP9's online store as I suspect that's where the bulk now is) pay for themselves (labor and materials) in a timely fashion. The first plastics kickstarter doesn't seemed to have kickstarted a renaissance in HG gaming like the original LeClerc blitz era redo did. When I posted above about the dp9 forums, I was surprised at how little interaction there is now. There was a moderator on the forum with only 100 posts (!) and only two of the top 10 forum posters by leaderboard thumbs up ranking still post (yourself and samuli). Churn is a normal part of every community but I didn't see the "new" zealots (that would shout down criticism 2-3 years ago from veterans) posting any more nor much in the way of new posters either to replace the old timers who voluntarily left or were kicked out for dubious reasons. I can't help but think that the player base and therefore sales have suffered similarly. Of course this is all outsider looking in conjecture but the reliance on prefunding at others' expense in order to create new product leans towards that as well (over and above the industry shift to crowdfunding overall that is).