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Via NPR:

Starting Jan. 1, every woman in the Marines Corps was supposed to meet a new physical standard by performing three pullups. But that has been put off.

The Marine Corps announced it quietly. There was no news conference — just a notice on its social media sites and an item on its own TV show, The Corps Report.

Lance Cpl. Ally Beiswanger explained that the pullup test had been put off until sometime next year, to gather more data and "ensure all female Marines are given the best opportunity to succeed."

So far, female Marines are not succeeding. Fifty-five percent of female recruits tested at the end of boot camp were doing fewer than three pullups; only 1 percent of male recruits failed the test.

The three pullups is already the minimum required for all male Marines. Now the Marine Corps has postponed the plan, and that's raising questions about whether women have the physical strength to handle ground combat, which they'll be allowed to do beginning in 2016.

Marine officers would not talk to NPR on tape. They said they delayed the pullup requirement to avoid losing not only recruits but also current female Marines who can't pass the test.

The Marine Corps has been using it to test upper body strength for men for more than 40 years. And that upper body strength, they say, is necessary to serve in ground combat: to pull yourself out of a canal in Afghanistan, to climb over a mud wall, to carry an ammunition box.

Full story here.

I was going to comment about it till i realized i can barely pull 3 pullups :/

As a former Marine, let me tell you how shocked, SHOCKED I am at this.

Jesus. My not-in-great-shape ass can do two.

This is where gender politics breaks down: at inescapable facts regarding gender based differences.

Don't women generally make better pilots, due to their higher resistance to g-forces?

feeder wrote:

Don't women generally make better pilots, due to their higher resistance to g-forces?

Maverick and Ice Man certainly don't think so

But, we do know that generally speaking, women are better at situps and other abdominal muscle exercises. The military maintains that women have "smaller hearts" (physically) on a proportional level, which is why they cant run as fast... to which I call BS, because I have known plenty of female soldiers who routinely smoke their male counterparts on the run (this could also be due to them not being as tired, since they dont have as many pushups to do either ) it's just that many play off of, and get away with the type that women are slower runners, so they do enough to pass their standards (which are, again, garbage)

So while I cannot actually comment on their abilities to handle G-s, there are plenty of other facets where we can observe gender differences.

Did they take there breath away?


Iv always heard women have better pain tolerance. duno if its true or not.

Even I can do three, and I'm a wargamer.

But then again, women do have a lot less upper body strength than men. I remember reading an article which says that women only half half the body mass on men on the upper body, mostly due to the fact that they have smaller muscles.

 Desubot wrote:
Did they take there breath away?


Iv always heard women have better pain tolerance. duno if its true or not.

If, after intercourse, I was going to have to gak a cantaloupe, I'd shoot myself in the face instead.

Holy crap, 3 as a minimum?

It helps that I'm travel-sized, but 3 series of 15-20 is my daily regimen, and that barely maintains my really-not-that-great shape...

Is this pull-ups in nothing but fatigues? Or pull-ups with full kit/equivalent weight?

Gender equality doesn't require fair outcomes, it requires fair opportunities. It's possible for a test to output gender imbalanced outcomes without being sexist based on the facts of human biology.

If the requirements are a realistic requirement of what is expected of a combat Marine, the standards should not be changed. However I also don't see any reason not to alter basic training regimens to include more upper body strength training opportunities for women, either - it would serve the best interests of recruits and the Corps both.

 Avatar 720 wrote:
Is this pull-ups in nothing but fatigues? Or pull-ups with full kit/equivalent weight?

That is a good question even i could do a good number of the first.. but the second... fuggedaboutit

I can do between 3 and 6 depending on whether I do it at the start of my workout or the end. I'm coming 17 and relatively healthy but not muscular.

Then again, if its in full combat gear I doubt I could manage 1.

feeder wrote:
Don't women generally make better pilots, due to their higher resistance to g-forces?

Male pilot's s pass out more it's true.

When they see a cloud in the shape of a pair of boobs (or even one boob) the blood flows from their brain to their crotch, which with the added g-force results in loss of consciousness and quite often tragedy.

But at least they get to die with a raging boner.



As for pullups I could manage about one I think.

But only if,


1, It was a matter of life or death.

2, I'd had a good bowel movement recently.

3, I had a pair of Sherpa's pushing me from below.

4, There was a slice of cake (chocolate) and Reece's peanut butter cup at the top.

Not surprised. Give them the time to improve. A year is fair.

For the longest time I struggled to do 1, let alone 3, and I was basically done after 1 "set", right now I'm doing sets of 10, probably doing 5 sets a night (up from basically 0 months ago)rock climbing helps... a LOT, but I think most of it is just getting your body used to it... I dated a girl who good do like 30-40 of them though, she wasn't particularly strong, she just weighed less than 100 lbs soaking wet.

I remember the time my class did a training day with the marines. We did some of the exercises they did, pull ups where hard, I could do none. Most of the girls could do 2-3, the only one that couldnt was built like a stich fiqure so couldnt. What happens if the marines, already in service, cant meet it?

 Desubot wrote:
Iv always heard women have better pain tolerance. duno if its true or not.

It is sort of true. When a woman is pregnant her pain tolerance is upped through hormones to prepare her for the childbirth, but when not pregnant it isn't higher.

 Ma55ter_fett wrote:

feeder wrote:
Don't women generally make better pilots, due to their higher resistance to g-forces?

Male pilot's s pass out more it's true.

When they see a cloud in the shape of a pair of boobs (or even one boob) the blood flows from their brain to their crotch, which with the added g-force results in loss of consciousness and quite often tragedy.

But at least they get to die with a raging boner.



As for pullups I could manage about one I think.

But only if,


1, It was a matter of life or death.

2, I'd had a good bowel movement recently.

3, I had a pair of Sherpa's pushing me from below.

4, There was a slice of cake (chocolate) and Reece's peanut butter cup at the top.

This was hilarious, but verging off topic. I am strangely reminded of Jack Black's impressive push up style, which you may google if you are curious.

I am not for compromising physical requirements of combat troopers- that's their job. I doubt any marine wants someone incapable of pulling them out of the line of fire if they're hit in the name of equal opportunity.

The only alternative I can see is replace the arbitrary pull up test with a series of combat activities that must be completed to a certain level in order to pass. Say, hauling ammo drums, pulling a wounded trooper back into a foxhole.

As a tiny (5'6" and 130 lbs) SCA fighter (wooden swords, heavy armor) I can tell you that I'd never be able to hit legally with a straight shot from the shoulder. But I can deliver a powerful blow using my hips and legs to generate the power I need. Perhaps female combatants can also skin the cat of combat operations in a different way. I say give them a combat style PT test, and see what they come up with.

Keep the minimum in place, if it is there for combat roles.

When it's life and death situations like combat, the woman should be able to meet any standard that the man has to.

If they can't, then their should be no reason they are on the front line. You'll only be putting others lives in danger all for the sake of political correctness, and that is wrong.

 djones520 wrote:
Keep the minimum in place, if it is there for combat roles.

When it's life and death situations like combat, the woman should be able to meet any standard that the man has to.

If they can't, then their should be no reason they are on the front line. You'll only be putting others lives in danger all for the sake of political correctness, and that is wrong.

Completely agree.

Ok, for some filler to the discussion.
3 pullups is the minimum; and it's nowhere near an acceptable score. 10 is borderline with 15 being good and 20 a perfect score. This is done in PT (shorts, running shoes, tshirt) gear, from a straight arm dead hang position and NO KIPPING. Women traditionally have done a flexed arm hang (holding your head above the pullup bar) for a period of time, 70 seconds being a perfect score, 15 the minimum. I'm not clear on the new standards; either women will have to do the three pullups (pass/fail) AND a flexed arm hang (for points) or just the pullups. If it's the pullups, women are going to face a lot of adversity promotion-wise until they can compete with the average Male Marine as your total PFT score holds a deal of weight on your promotion chances (don't want to get technical). Failing a PFT depends on your unit, but typically you'll at least receive an adverse counseling statement, put on remedial PT, and generally be held in low regard until you improve.

A point to make is that PT in Boot Camp isn't meant to get you in great shape. It's simply meant to get you into good enough shape. Recruiters are gonna have to start working with female recruits on their pullups before they head off to bootcamp. The Marines also have a Combat Fitness Test which is meant to be a supplement to the traditional PFT, not replace it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Fitness_Test

Gitzbitah, I fight SCA too, and using your hips would result in kipping, which is a no-no.

feeder wrote:
This is where gender politics breaks down: at inescapable facts regarding gender based differences.

Don't women generally make better pilots, due to their higher resistance to g-forces?

Not in my experience.

 DEUS VULT wrote:
Ok, for some filler to the discussion.
3 pullups is the minimum; and it's nowhere near an acceptable score. 10 is borderline with 15 being good and 20 a perfect score. This is done in PT (shorts, running shoes, tshirt) gear, from a straight arm dead hang position and NO KIPPING. Women traditionally have done a flexed arm hang (holding your head above the pullup bar) for a period of time, 70 seconds being a perfect score, 15 the minimum. I'm not clear on the new standards; either women will have to do the three pullups (pass/fail) AND a flexed arm hang (for points) or just the pullups. If it's the pullups, women are going to face a lot of adversity promotion-wise until they can compete with the average Male Marine as your total PFT score holds a deal of weight on your promotion chances (don't want to get technical). Failing a PFT depends on your unit, but typically you'll at least receive an adverse counseling statement, put on remedial PT, and generally be held in low regard until you improve.

A point to make is that PT in Boot Camp isn't meant to get you in great shape. It's simply meant to get you into good enough shape. Recruiters are gonna have to start working with female recruits on their pullups before they head off to bootcamp. The Marines also have a Combat Fitness Test which is meant to be a supplement to the traditional PFT, not replace it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Fitness_Test

Gitzbitah, I fight SCA too, and using your hips would result in kipping, which is a no-no.

Back in the old days, when I went through boot camp, the record was 50 pullups. Had that changed much when you went through?

My experience is that most dudes had a hard time doing a flexed arm hang.

 djones520 wrote:
Keep the minimum in place, if it is there for combat roles.

When it's life and death situations like combat, the woman should be able to meet any standard that the man has to.

If they can't, then their should be no reason they are on the front line. You'll only be putting others lives in danger all for the sake of political correctness, and that is wrong.

Thank you for saying what I was thinking

If there is a reason for the standard, then it should be met regardless of the sex of the person that is required to make it.
If you can meet the standard, then you should be allowed to do the job.
If you can't meet it, then you shouldn't

That should be the end of the discussion.

I have never understood the difference between holding men to a higher physical standard in the military.

In my age group I am required to be able to do a minimum of 33 push ups in one minute. Females are required to do 18. I have to be able to run 1.5 miles in 13:36 minumum, while they have nearly 3 minutes longer to run the same distance.

A womans job is in no way shape or form any different from mine, so why do I have significantly different physical standards?

I understand that yes there is a significant physical difference between the two sexes, but if the AF determines that I am unable to complete my mission without being able to do 33 push ups, then how does the female sitting next to me with the same rank, doing the same job, with the same amount of time in service, get it done?

 djones520 wrote:
I have never understood the difference between holding men to a higher physical standard in the military.

In my age group I am required to be able to do a minimum of 33 push ups in one minute. Females are required to do 18. I have to be able to run 1.5 miles in 13:36 minumum, while they have nearly 3 minutes longer to run the same distance.

A womans job is in no way shape or form any different from mine, so why do I have significantly different physical standards?

I understand that yes there is a significant physical difference between the two sexes, but if the AF determines that I am unable to complete my mission without being able to do 33 push ups, then how does the female sitting next to me with the same rank, doing the same job, with the same amount of time in service, get it done?

Airforce PT standards are a joke anyway...

On topic, I agree with this.