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Hey Dakka, I run footslogging BT (soon to become a half, if not wholly, a DP list), with three Crusader squads as my core of troops. My current special weapon loadout for them is 2 plasguns and 1 gravgun, with rockets in each squad too. I'm planning on getting a fourth and final squad, and was wondering which sort of special weapon I should give them from the list above, considering that I most often face Tau, DW, Necrons and other SM?

Meltas are helpful for taking out most units but still letting you assault. But plasma is terrible.

I'm not planning on assaulting with my initiates because they've all got bolters, but please explain why plas is so bad.

Plasma is decent anti-infantry, poor anti-armor (but still possible), which makes it balanced but not excellent.

Meltas are my personal favorite, but I play Salamanders, so I get more mileage out of them than you would.

I think grav weapons are highly overrated.

People are scared of Gets Hot!, that's why.

I think that plasma is the best all-around special weapon.

Graviton weapons are amazing, especially against MC and FMC, but they fail to reliably wound light infantry (GEQ or worse), and they only really shine on Relentless models such as Centurions or Biker Marines.

Meltaguns are great for antitank purposes, but placing meltaguns in your tactical or crusader squads splits their focus. If you use the meltaguns for what they are intended for, the rest of the squad is just soak wounds. And while, yes, melta weapons can kill basically any model, you only get one shot from them. There are far better and more focused anti-tank options, like a Land Speeder with two multi-meltas.

Flamers rock against massed GEQ and worse but they fail pretty hard against MEQ and TEQ, unless your opponent has horrible save rolls.

Plasmaguns are the only special weapon in a tactical squad that can reliably hurt GEQ, MEQ, TEQ, and light & medium vehicles. Because of this, they suffer from Gets Hot! Plasma is the best "take all comers" option, in my opinion. It allows your squad to threaten essentially any unit type except for models with a 4++ or better, AV13 and AV14 vehicles, and flyers.

 Banzaimash wrote:
I'm not planning on assaulting with my initiates because they've all got bolters, but please explain why plas is so bad.

Well the fact is on paper it looks good but it takes a bad string of 1's to take out your 25 pt specialists.

All I can say is don’t fear the Plasma. You can count the things that they won’t hurt one hand exceeding War Machines.
Yes you can kill a model hear and there, but in the long run they kill other things much better. I run Plasma SPAM list, one 2k list with 33 Plasma Weapons. Most Armies just melt before me.
Yes that 29 point model just died, but how many points died to it first.

I admit, a portion of the reason I so favor plasma is because a bad roll can kill the model wielding it. That chance of failure makes the game more exciting to me.

 Anpu42 wrote:
All I can say is don’t fear the Plasma. You can count the things that they won’t hurt one hand exceeding War Machines.
Yes you can kill a model hear and there, but in the long run they kill other things much better. I run Plasma SPAM list, one 2k list with 33 Plasma Weapons. Most Armies just melt before me.
Yes that 29 point model just died, but how many points died to it first.

True but some of the people I play against end up screwing up entire assaults just by having their Plasma guys killing themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But 33 plasma is to be feared. But that is a pretty big risk.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
All I can say is don’t fear the Plasma. You can count the things that they won’t hurt one hand exceeding War Machines.
Yes you can kill a model hear and there, but in the long run they kill other things much better. I run Plasma SPAM list, one 2k list with 33 Plasma Weapons. Most Armies just melt before me.
Yes that 29 point model just died, but how many points died to it first.

True but some of the people I play against end up screwing up entire assaults just by having their Plasma guys killing themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But 33 plasma is to be feared. But that is a pretty big risk.

I loose an averge of one model a turn, but, they kill about 10-15 models a turn. Well worth the risk I think.

In my most competitive army (with the models I have), I run 3 full tacticals, each squad has a role: 1 with combi-flamer, flamer and HB; 1 with combi-melta, melta, MM, 1 with combi-plasma, PG, PC.

What I'm trying to say is that each weapon has its target of choice, you can spam all of one type but you'll leave yourself open to certain weaknesses. While plasma might be the "middle of the road" weapon, it can't pop a monolith or roast a squad of pathfinders.

My setup might be against all the meta (which tends to lean towards spamming and "redundancy"), but I find it works best in a competitive environment where you need a lot of different tools. I use the UM trait so the doctrines get me more mileage out of my tactical squads and there special weapons.

I run Combi-plasmas on my sergeants, but I'm playing Salamanders, and Mastercrafted Plasma is a lot more reliable than regular plasma, and will kill more infantry than melta in the same amount of time.

For special weapons not on the sergeant, I like melta mostly, and not just because of Salamanders. As before, plasma without rerolls is unreliable and more expensive than melta, and as others have said, Grav is only really worth it if you're equipping Relentless units with them (Bikers/Centurion Devs). Otherwise, they're plasmaguns with no get's-hot but pitiful range (because your specialist is almost never in a position to stand still and fire if either in a Rhino or disembarking from a DP). If you want your Tactical squad to be able to engage tough targets, melta is the best bet in my opinion.

I actually don't even use melta for my tactical squad special weapons. I run Flamer/Combi-plasma, because I'm specifically kitting out my squads for Drop Pod anti-infantry roles.

I run tac squads like this, using the Raukaan supplement:

5x tactical marines w/ plasmagun
techmarine w/ servo harness & combi-plasma
sergeant w/ combi-plasma
razorback w/ twin-linked assault cannon & dozer blade

My only regret is that I can't put a twin-linked plasma cannon on the Razorback. That would just be the sexiest thing ever.

Gets Hot! may as well not exist for MEQ. What is the math for dying to your own plasma? Something like 1/36?

MEQ is BS4 3+, not BS3 5+. Your plasma gunner will probably die to pulse or las fire or barrage sniping or heavy weapons before he burns himself to death.

I find grav guns on tactical marines to be underwhelming.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Gets Hot! may as well not exist for MEQ. What is the math for dying to your own plasma? Something like 1/36?

Exactly. There's really no question about the superiority of plasmaguns as a take-all-comers option.

1/18, to be exact.

But I would still agree on plasma as being the best standard special weapon.

Flamers have niche uses.

Grav and flamers would be better if taken on bikes, but on infantry it's plasma all the way.

Actually, u'r chances to die as a 3+ model are 1/18 with every shot. for example, to wound a wraithknight u'll need an average of 5 plazma shots if he's not in cover or without a 5++, if he is u'll need 6-7 shots. Thus if u're gona kill it with plazma-wielders only u'll need ~38 shots which is just 2 deadly overheated marines from shooting a wk. If you shoot 4-5 t guyz though it's like 2 shots to wound before saves. Now it depends on what invul or cover saves they got. So for marines this rate ain't terrible really. Worse for plazmavets and abyssmal for orkses vs t6 or less though Kustom mega blasta actually kills more orkses from overheat than enemies If you decide to shoot assault termies with kmb mekboy you need like 11 shots to do a single wound while those 11 shots are causing 1.5 wounds after a 6+ save

I'd rank them as follows:

Plasma
Melta

Flamer
Grav

I personally like plasma. Risky but gets the job done.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Gets Hot! may as well not exist for MEQ. What is the math for dying to your own plasma? Something like 1/36?

MEQ is BS4 3+, not BS3 5+. Your plasma gunner will probably die to pulse or las fire or barrage sniping or heavy weapons before he burns himself to death.

I find grav guns on tactical marines to be underwhelming.

Tell this to my Ravagers/BA. Before I switched over to the Grav/melta love, I had at least 2 plasma weapon dudes cook themselves before they inflicted a single casualty...in every. single.game. Most often they were my plasma cannons .

Going by stats, I would vote plasma guns. Given my experience, I voted melta. I've just not gotten the hang of using grav weapons yet.

I personally love it when people bring plasma against me as usually it results in me not havig to kill them. The few exceptions for me are master crafted salamanders combi plas sergeants and if your twin linking them or have FNP.

I personally don't think their is a "best" special weapon as they all bring different attributes. I run bikes and salamanders ATM so I wouldn't take anything but grav, melta, or flamers personally I despise plasma.

It doesn't help that almost everyone at my FLGS has an extreme fear of running a Gets Hot weapon. And with good reason. I typically roll so many ones that I started Imperial Fists just because of that.

Well grav weapons on non-relentless models are kinda meh.

On foot troops I'd go with plasma because getting into melta range can be non-trivial.

I'd dump the MLs for sure as well. I'm not sure I'd even use heavies on troops that are planning on moving.

Nobody is bringing up the fact that meltas only have a 12" range. Unless you are drop podding that is a huge disadvantage. Personally plasma works far better than anything else.

I just mentioned it in the post right before yours.

Make sure that all the weapons in the squad work well together. That's the most important thing. All of the options are decent, but make sure the combi- and the special are matching, and that the heavy works well with those two weapons.

 wtwlf123 wrote:
Make sure that all the weapons in the squad work well together. That's the most important thing. All of the options are decent, but make sure the combi- and the special are matching, and that the heavy works well with those two weapons.

This and What will be the Unit's Job.
For Me:
Genreal Dutry/Take on all Comers/Taking Objectives: I find Plasma works best along.
Hank Hunting: Metla/Las Cannons
Poiny Defence: Flamers/Heavy Bolters
Air Defence: Missile Launchers
I use alot of Plasma

Against any flyer you care about, the flakk missiile is not getting the job done. Don't use MLs, especially in the new C:SM codex. They are truly awful now.

Martel732 wrote:
Against any flyer you care about, the flakk missiile is not getting the job done. Don't use MLs, especially in the new C:SM codex. They are truly awful now.

um no they are awesome (at least in my experience) it gets rid of EVERYTHING.

Flakk missiles are terrible. No interceptor, poor strength and ap vaules. Also ridiculously overcosted.

Against other targets they are the middle ground between anti armour and anti infantry. Capable of dong something against both, but not great at either. Specializing is normally a better choice.