Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Flashgitz

Ratlings

And any BT named character haha

 Solosam47 wrote:
Flashgitz

Ratlings

And any BT named character haha

Joking about the BT named chars right? far from the worst in the codex.

Demon prince doesn't have eternal warrior? (But the demon army one does and you have to pay more points for power armor?)
Defiler's weapon load out not making any sense?
Tzeentch sorcerers some of the worst psykers in the game?
Mutilators suck for CC unit?
Warp Talons....just, no.
1kSons Marines cost as much as terminators and can't take heavy weapons or really do much at all?

Did GW even read this book before they sent it to the printers?

For Eldar its pretty easy. They have a few bums in the codex.
Elites
1. Howling Banshees Jesus H Christ they suck. No grenades 4+ armor and only AP3 weapons. Can't even kill characters and can't assault vehicles. They could but it'd be pointless.
2. Harlequins. No dedicated transport kills them. Well that and they suck.
Troops
1. Storm Guardians I see people play these and say to myself "you must be stupid, stupid, stupid...."
FA
1. Shining Spears god they are crappy too. 6" range you have to buy hit and run (Spiders get it free) basic PL is S6AP3 not exactly a devastating weapon there. Ohh and explain to me how a suicide unit works with a race going extinct.
2. Hemlock isn't that awful but you have to build around it and its soooooo situational.
Heavy
1. Falcon its actually decent but so many other BETTER choices in this slot.
2. Wraithlord not because its bad but Fire Prisms, Vauls HS guns, WK, Dark Reapers and War Walkers all give better value.

I love how these threads always just turn into codex whine. "oh it's ALL terrible!"

The object of the exercise is to pick out the ONE unit in your codex that you think takes the cake and explain why. Not ramble on about everything you don't like in your codex.

Mine would merging BT with SM. I wish BT have a codex, since they feel like plain, stupid vanilla SM. Unless I put my touch on my army.

 lobbywatson wrote:
For Eldar its pretty easy. They have a few bums in the codex.
Elites
1. Howling Banshees Jesus H Christ they suck. No grenades 4+ armor and only AP3 weapons. Can't even kill characters and can't assault vehicles. They could but it'd be pointless.
2. Harlequins. No dedicated transport kills them. Well that and they suck.
Troops
1. Storm Guardians I see people play these and say to myself "you must be stupid, stupid, stupid...."
FA
1. Shining Spears god they are crappy too. 6" range you have to buy hit and run (Spiders get it free) basic PL is S6AP3 not exactly a devastating weapon there. Ohh and explain to me how a suicide unit works with a race going extinct.
2. Hemlock isn't that awful but you have to build around it and its soooooo situational.
Heavy
1. Falcon its actually decent but so many other BETTER choices in this slot.
2. Wraithlord not because its bad but Fire Prisms, Vauls HS guns, WK, Dark Reapers and War Walkers all give better value.

Codes CSM would fall and its knees and beg for some of the units you listed there...

XXXX

 Unholyllama wrote:
Necrons:
Lychguard - slow, expensive, and a crappy save even with the shield (and in IA they get worse). Flayed ones are cheap and have some use. Praetorians (with void blades) need a DLord but are more agile and maneuverable.

Orks:
TankBustas - Gloryhog is their downfall.

Dark Eldar:
Archon's court - only because you have to take one of each model else it'd be Mandrakes.

CSM:
Mutilators - Slow, Expensive, and really make no sense other than GW's need to have a CC clone of Oblits for some reason.

Until this post, I kept thinking people were talking about oblits. I asked myself: "the feth is wrong here?", then I read this and realized you're all discussing the CC cousin. Much more sense now.

Could someone explain why the Hydra isn't on this list? It could be redeemed by taking 2 in a squad for the price of a single LR for lots of TL dakka, but with no skyfire, how does it do anything to fliers? I'd much rather have skyfire than an anti-jink special rule. That said, I've never used them yet, so if they actually have worth, please do explain their usefulness to me.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 Banzaimash wrote:
Rhinos.

Rhinos work pretty well for my IF and Sisters. I count them as a "Must take."

It's probably just my personal experience of them then. They just always seem to give first blood and not go very far. I prefer footslogging because the squads inside them are more durable and my BT cover 10-12" a turn with running, so they can still cover ground quite fast.

FAQd, Hydras have skyfire but not intercept.

so no one agrees with me about some of the phoenix lords

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
so no one agrees with me about some of the phoenix lords

most of the Phoenix Lords are pretty good beat sticks, and pretty survivable at that. Expensive, yes, but not overly so when compared to other named HQ for other armies. Baharroth is probably the weakest one of the bunch, and only just because he has an AP3 close combat weapon but his abilities and other wargear help alleviate this.

 Artanis wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
Even in an entire codex full of garbage, Possessed are the worst units in the Chaos Space Marine book.

I'd like to nominate the Helbrute to join the CSM garbage heap so far discussed. An inconsistent slow AV12 walker with Crazed.

That makes the list of poor units: Possessed, Mutilators, Warp Talons, Defilers, Helbrutes, Berserkers, Thousand Sons, Dark Apostle, Lucius, Ahriman

There's a reason why people call our book Codex: Heldrakes

That makes the list of poor units: Basic Chaos Space Marines, Possessed, Mutilators, Warp Talons, Defilers, Helbrutes, Berserkers, Thousand Sons, Dark Apostle, Lucius, Ahriman

Fixed that for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and for everyone bitching about the CSM dex, yes it is underpowered in the general meta.

BUT, they are very balanced against other marine builds. In fact, if you have pure CSM army, I would suggest only playing them against other marines.

You can get some epic battles going with CSM vs. Marines that are very fun.

Xenos rule 6th right now, and it is not worth fighting them with CSM competitively. Compare a basic Eldar Guardian to a basic Chaos Space Marine...
The Guardian has rending, all of the Eldar troops have fricking RENDING! And we are not even talking about Battle Focus.

MEQ need to stay in the playground and play each other for balance.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Space Marines? Assault Centurions.

Dark Eldar? Mandrakes.

Grey Knights? Hmmm...I have a limited army. Interceptors? Can't really say...

Tau? Again, pretty unsure. Vespid, maybe?

I might have to disagree about the Mandrakes, at least based my experience. I have usually used them on the fringe part of battles, backing up other units until they get buffed enough to send in on their own. They can be a surprisingly good tarpit unit at that point.

Dark Apostle. nuff said

Codex: Space Marines: Centurions

Reasons:
1) TERRIBLE synergy with other Chapter Tactics (counting out the Iron Hands, that possibly makes them at least decent, should someone wants to field them).
2) They don't do anything that other units would do better or cheaper.
3) Two wounds, but no invulnerable save... 'scuse me, mate, but WAT? STR10 / AP2 will wipe 'em off the table.
4) They can't overwatch or sweeping advance, so opponent's models will ALWAYS run away when Ld test fails, so melee will look silly when Assault Centurions just watch how their recently poked target just flees and possibly launches a counter-attack next turn.
5) Devastator Centurions' lack of power weapons and any melee prowess whatsoever just screams tarpitting them with anything lousy and cheap.
6) 190 points for 3 man squad, 60 points per extra model. I will rather invest into hammernators or missile devastators.

Despite the "good" sides of these guys (2 wounds, can fire two weapons, and twin-linked everywhere), they are just crushed by the bad sides that makes them unplayable or at least undesired in my ears, disregarding their unaesthetic look and "meh"-class fluff.

 Tigramans wrote:
Codex: Space Marines: Centurions

Reasons:
1) TERRIBLE synergy with other Chapter Tactics (counting out the Iron Hands, that possibly makes them at least decent, should someone wants to field them).
2) They don't do anything that other units would do better or cheaper.
3) Two wounds, but no invulnerable save... 'scuse me, mate, but WAT? STR10 / AP2 will wipe 'em off the table.
4) They can't overwatch or sweeping advance, so opponent's models will ALWAYS run away when Ld test fails, so melee will look silly when Assault Centurions just watch how their recently poked target just flees and possibly launches a counter-attack next turn.
5) Devastator Centurions' lack of power weapons and any melee prowess whatsoever just screams tarpitting them with anything lousy and cheap.
6) 190 points for 3 man squad, 60 points per extra model. I will rather invest into hammernators or missile devastators.

Despite the "good" sides of these guys (2 wounds, can fire two weapons, and twin-linked everywhere), they are just crushed by the bad sides that makes them unplayable or at least undesired in my ears, disregarding their unaesthetic look and "meh"-class fluff.

This a book with devastator marines, the Stormraven, assault marines, tactical marines, dreadnoughts, hunters, and vanguards and this is what you come up with?

Aftermath. wrote:

 Artanis wrote:

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
Even in an entire codex full of garbage, Possessed are the worst units in the Chaos Space Marine book.

I'd like to nominate the Helbrute to join the CSM garbage heap so far discussed. An inconsistent slow AV12 walker with Crazed.

That makes the list of poor units: Possessed, Mutilators, Warp Talons, Defilers, Helbrutes, Berserkers, Thousand Sons, Dark Apostle, Lucius, Ahriman

There's a reason why people call our book Codex: Heldrakes

That makes the list of poor units: Basic Chaos Space Marines, Possessed, Mutilators, Warp Talons, Defilers, Helbrutes, Berserkers, Thousand Sons, Dark Apostle, Lucius, Ahriman

Fixed that for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and for everyone bitching about the CSM dex, yes it is underpowered in the general meta.

BUT, they are very balanced against other marine builds. In fact, if you have pure CSM army, I would suggest only playing them against other marines.

You can get some epic battles going with CSM vs. Marines that are very fun.

Xenos rule 6th right now, and it is not worth fighting them with CSM competitively. Compare a basic Eldar Guardian to a basic Chaos Space Marine...
The Guardian has rending, all of the Eldar troops have fricking RENDING! And we are not even talking about Battle Focus.

MEQ need to stay in the playground and play each other for balance.

The only problem I have with this.... is this falls apart at the start . SM tend to be better at duels and CSM are generally inferior to their loyalist brothers that for a single point get a zoo and a petting horse. And then there is the heldrake which really ruins this as this single unit has brought undying hatred to CSM for many with it being a tanky flyer that has a template that slaughters marines and can vector strike.

Anyways... another. I know there are worse units but I'll toss him out to point something... Yarrick. He's a badass. He's a cool character that has a fething ork power claw. The dude is crazy and even has his own personal baneblade! One problem... he doesn't bring much synergy to your army. He's a CC beatstick in an army that prefers to shoot and really doesn't bring any real buffs to your army.

What on earth are you comparing these units to?
I don't know if you're serious, or just joking, but I'll answer in all seriousness:

Devastators are underrated, and overshadowed by the new Centurion models that even can't do their job well enough. For SM players who use the Imperial Fists Chapter Tactics, they are a nice welcome to their defence lines because they're more dynamic and survivable. In addition, re-rolling failed glances/pens sounds a delight to heavy weapon squads. The group is larger than Dev-Cents, so they don't start running so quickly off the table, and can do the same work cheaper.
They lack twin-linked? Let's include Ordo Malleus Inquisitor there with Psyker level 1 with Prescience - 55 points more. Problem solved.

Martel732 wrote:
the Stormraven

Well, even though the quick nigh-unstoppable reign of Stormravens is over since their first release (and all the rage that came with it), it's still a decent flyer pick for anyone. An assault vehicle that can transport a Dreadnought, alongside with a bunch of dudes? AV12? Twin-linked hard-hitting arsenal? They do a diddely for even heavy targets, and pop Land Raiders, should they stay in the air long enough. I understand, that picking flyers nowadays has become a more careful business, due to increase in anti-air, but still: Stormraven it's NOT bad, far away from the worst. It's simply decent because of the same reason as the Vindicator: it's a massive fire magnet, and you need at least two of them to pull out a nice move.

Martel732 wrote:
assault marines

Well, if you wish to compare to BA Assault Marines, well yes, they are inferior. But seriously; even this unit got a nice buff in the latest codex, and are actually worth taking. Now that they're cheaper, have access to grav weapons and cheaper wargear in general, fielding a full squad with a melee-oriented HQ makes them effective objective cleaners.

Martel732 wrote:
tactical marines

What do you expect from Tactical Marines? They do their job well in this edition, and also served me as well. They're meant to be a "basic" choice for Troops, and to be decent at everything.

Martel732 wrote:
dreadnoughts

...Which are now actually worth taking - ESPECIALLY Venerable Dreads, since the +25pts Venerable upgrade is a steal nowadays. However, the only thing I miss is their lack of wielding dual-fists, but looks like BA snatched that option to themselves. Oh well, just a little note...

Martel732 wrote:
hunters

I've yet to meet a player who has said it sucks. So far my mates in my FLGS disagree with you.

Martel732 wrote:
and vanguards and this is what you come up with?

Also Vanguards got a nice boost when the pointcosts were reduced, and I use them in almost every second match. Have worked as expected till this day: butchered key targets, and countered Death Company with ease.

Seriously; Centurions are way too overrated and overcosted in points.

I'll take dev cents over any of those units, because unlike most of the units I listed, they can actually do a lot of damage.

Martel732 wrote:
I'll take dev cents over any of those units, because unlike most of the units I listed, they can actually do a lot of damage.

...And also be a massive attention magnet. Due to lack of decent close combat defensive capabilities, anything can tarpit them.

 Tigramans wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'll take dev cents over any of those units, because unlike most of the units I listed, they can actually do a lot of damage.

...And also be a massive attention magnet. Due to lack of decent close combat defensive capabilities, anything can tarpit them.

The marines suffer from a serious lack of firepower compared to Tau/Eldar even in the new codex. The grav cents offer a weapon system that Wave Serpents have to respect. Tiggy supported las/ml can do the trick as well, but I prefer Stormraven delivered grav cents with hurricane bolters. Keep them as cheap as possible.

The units I listed are mainly overcosted due to lack of offense, or in the case of the Raven, fragility for price.

The hunter is a total joke with only one shot. Your mates are wrong.

GoingtoHell wrote:

 lobbywatson wrote:
For Eldar its pretty easy. They have a few bums in the codex.
Elites
1. Howling Banshees Jesus H Christ they suck. No grenades 4+ armor and only AP3 weapons. Can't even kill characters and can't assault vehicles. They could but it'd be pointless.
2. Harlequins. No dedicated transport kills them. Well that and they suck.
Troops
1. Storm Guardians I see people play these and say to myself "you must be stupid, stupid, stupid...."
FA
1. Shining Spears god they are crappy too. 6" range you have to buy hit and run (Spiders get it free) basic PL is S6AP3 not exactly a devastating weapon there. Ohh and explain to me how a suicide unit works with a race going extinct.
2. Hemlock isn't that awful but you have to build around it and its soooooo situational.
Heavy
1. Falcon its actually decent but so many other BETTER choices in this slot.
2. Wraithlord not because its bad but Fire Prisms, Vauls HS guns, WK, Dark Reapers and War Walkers all give better value.

Codes CSM would fall and its knees and beg for some of the units you listed there...

XXXX

I'm really sorry for you then. Yikes. I mean they aren't all bad but they are the worst of Eldar and truly only two of them are worthless and unplayable. Banshees and Shining Spears.

Eldar do have some internal balance issues, but the choices are usually between decent/good units and OMGZ WHAT IS THIS DOING HERE? Yeah, banshees and spears suck, but compared to marines, they have far more quality across the board.

Martel732 wrote:

The marines suffer from a serious lack of firepower compared to Tau/Eldar even in the new codex. The grav cents offer a weapon system that Wave Serpents have to respect. Tiggy supported las/ml can do the trick as well, but I prefer Stormraven delivered grav cents with hurricane bolters. Keep them as cheap as possible.

The units I listed are mainly overcosted due to lack of offense, or in the case of the Raven, fragility for price.

The hunter is a total joke with only one shot. Your mates are wrong.

If you think Space Marines can play in the same league with Tau and Eldar... no... just no. Please don't do that comparison ever again.

Tigurius is too expensive for a simple Prescience trick, and exclusive to smurfs. Not worth it, unless you build your army around him.

Centurions inside a Stormraven? That's at least 400 points in a single spot, just waiting for that single flakk missile to deal a pen. Sounds really risky for a SM player. Also; Ork boyz won't take crap from grav weapons, for you'll wound 'em with 6+. Good luck with receiving a massive tarpit.

When it comes to Hunter's "only one shot"; don't forget that it's meant to annihilate the target with that one shot. S7 AP2 Armourbane hurts - a lot. If it misses, big deal, it hits in the REAR in next turn. I wouldn't call that a joke. I'd call it a threat.

Lack of offence? Play White Scars or Raven Guard. Heck, tons of T5 scoring bikers driving through rubble like they were nothing, coming to yoink your objectives is scary and it happens fast.
Personally, I play with IF detachment, and that makes us like day and night. I have no problems with regular dev-squads nor anything else you listed as crud. Instead of taking sluggish and expensive Centurions, fielding two Thunderfire cannons is cheaper and more efficient in the terms of firepower and flexibility - AND they reach further.

All codex sm

 Tigramans wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

The marines suffer from a serious lack of firepower compared to Tau/Eldar even in the new codex. The grav cents offer a weapon system that Wave Serpents have to respect. Tiggy supported las/ml can do the trick as well, but I prefer Stormraven delivered grav cents with hurricane bolters. Keep them as cheap as possible.

The units I listed are mainly overcosted due to lack of offense, or in the case of the Raven, fragility for price.

The hunter is a total joke with only one shot. Your mates are wrong.

If you think Space Marines can play in the same league with Tau and Eldar... no... just no. Please don't do that comparison ever again.

.

Well they fundamentally can beat Tau and Eldar lists. Bringing Tau and Eldar by no means guarantees victory and so that comparison is perfectly valid.

XXXX

 Tigramans wrote:
STR10 / AP2 will wipe 'em off the table.

No hard feelings, but IMO, this isn't what defines unit a bad one
Yeah, you had other points as well but seems rather amusing that you had this line in there

zilka86 wrote:
All codex sm

Really? Wow. The whole codex is terrible?

 Tigramans wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

The marines suffer from a serious lack of firepower compared to Tau/Eldar even in the new codex. The grav cents offer a weapon system that Wave Serpents have to respect. Tiggy supported las/ml can do the trick as well, but I prefer Stormraven delivered grav cents with hurricane bolters. Keep them as cheap as possible.

The units I listed are mainly overcosted due to lack of offense, or in the case of the Raven, fragility for price.

The hunter is a total joke with only one shot. Your mates are wrong.

Also; Ork boyz won't take crap from grav weapons, for you'll wound 'em with 6+

fielding two Thunderfire cannons is cheaper and more efficient in the terms of firepower and flexibility - AND they reach further.

I agree with all of your points but these two. Why are you bringing specialist armor/TEQ killers like Cents against something like the green tide? Or any swarm/horde list that can easily tarpit less-mobile shooty units. That is why we have the TFC. However against armies like Deathwing, GK and IG tank coys, I'm pretty sure either one of us would take las/ML cents over a pair of TFCs. My point being, both units have their place and are quite capable when used accordingly.