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Martel732 wrote:
ATSKNF is actually not that useful anymore. I'm struggling to have marines survive. There aren't any left to do the regroup trick you are speaking of. Also, realize that sometimes you WANT to be swept in combat so you can shoot more. Especially in 6th.

They don't have weapons that do anything. They don't have a transport that does anything. They aren't a threat in HTH, despite paying for bolt pistol, WS 4, S4.

Until you actually play marines against Xeno lists *that mean business*, not this "oh my meta doesn't use war walkers!" you probably will not understand the frustration. Your guys just die in droves despite their "eliteness".

You do not want marines as troops. They are overcosted and are a tax on your list. They look great on paper, but in reality that have a bunch of rules and gear that don't matter or don't help.

Not my Experiance at all. There is nothing thay can not kill.
So I take it in your local Meta Tactical Marines are not used much?

Yeah what's going on is people expect marines to be able to put out A LOT of game winning shots and weapons. No, they can possibly have 1 Las cannon that hits and pens a vehicle and it explodes, people expect it to be like a devastator squad with 4 Las cannons, not what a tactical squad is meant for. They are the only basic troop choice that can take various upgrades for many different situations.

And yes I know what several different combinations of 3 war Walkers are like, double scatter laser on each for 24 shots, remember I passed 23 3+ saves before, war Walkers


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh man on a side note you guys should have seen this 4 way free for all we did, I was space marines raven guard chapter tactics, the other players were necron, tau, and tyranids. My chapter master with jump pack shield eternal and thunder hammer lived through the entire last round of shooting from so many things, I passed that round alone 17 2+ saves and 9 3+ out of 10. He ended game with 1 wound and he earned slay the warlord for me eventually after the necron player finally failed his reanimation protocol on his over lord, which are a freaking pain in close combat.

Tactical Marines are good, but if I were to tweak them it would be by modifying Bolt weapons; make them AP 5, but AP 4 on rolls to wound of 6.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
Or take Black Templars Crusader Squads, who have the ability to take 2 power fists, a power weapon, a heavy and a special weapon in a 5-man squad ^_^

They don't.

They can upgrade one model to a sword brother and take a power weapon/fist
They can upgrade one model to a heavy weapon or power weapon/fist
They can upgrade one model to a special weapon

They can therefore take three upgraded models in a five man (or 19 man) squad.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
ATSKNF is actually not that useful anymore. I'm struggling to have marines survive. There aren't any left to do the regroup trick you are speaking of. Also, realize that sometimes you WANT to be swept in combat so you can shoot more. Especially in 6th.

They don't have weapons that do anything. They don't have a transport that does anything. They aren't a threat in HTH, despite paying for bolt pistol, WS 4, S4.

Until you actually play marines against Xeno lists *that mean business*, not this "oh my meta doesn't use war walkers!" you probably will not understand the frustration. Your guys just die in droves despite their "eliteness".

You do not want marines as troops. They are overcosted and are a tax on your list. They look great on paper, but in reality that have a bunch of rules and gear that don't matter or don't help.

No.

I flat out refuse to believe that Marines are less durable than Sisters against basic weapons, and my Sisters don't fold like you're describing.

Sounds like you aren't playing the right opponents. 50+ wounds a turn will cause any power armor list to fold. S6 Eldar weapons don't care if they are shooting marines or sisters. Except that they kill more points when a marine rolls a "1" or a "2". Even sisters are better bullet catchers against Eldar than marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
ATSKNF is actually not that useful anymore. I'm struggling to have marines survive. There aren't any left to do the regroup trick you are speaking of. Also, realize that sometimes you WANT to be swept in combat so you can shoot more. Especially in 6th.

They don't have weapons that do anything. They don't have a transport that does anything. They aren't a threat in HTH, despite paying for bolt pistol, WS 4, S4.

Until you actually play marines against Xeno lists *that mean business*, not this "oh my meta doesn't use war walkers!" you probably will not understand the frustration. Your guys just die in droves despite their "eliteness".

You do not want marines as troops. They are overcosted and are a tax on your list. They look great on paper, but in reality that have a bunch of rules and gear that don't matter or don't help.

Not my Experiance at all. There is nothing thay can not kill.
So I take it in your local Meta Tactical Marines are not used much?

There is a lot they can not kill. This is from both mathhammer and experience.

I try not to use them. But they get used. Tactical marines are one of the reasons that my BA still can steal games from C:SM. Because every tactical marine is a unit I don't have to really worry about. Not like a dire avenger than can rend a model with 2+ armor.

"And yes I know what several different combinations of 3 war Walkers are like, double scatter laser on each for 24 shots, remember I passed 23 3+ saves before, war Walkers "

And somewhere else someone completely botched their saves. Luck can't hold forever, and the law of large amounts of dice is firmly in the Eldar's corner. It sounds like you rely purely on your dice luck to survive, which is not a good plan over many, many games.

Dat Guy wrote:

And yes I know what several different combinations of 3 war Walkers are like, double scatter laser on each for 24 shots, remember I passed 23 3+ saves before, war Walkers

I've had my only Drop Pod model kill the Swarmlord, Lysander, Logan, Abaddon, Calgar, The Sanguinor, Ghazghkull, and numerous no-name HQs with its Storm Bolters. The conclusion is not that Drop Pods are the best shooting units in the game, it's that those were statistical flukes.

You know, like I pointed out last time you mentioned that...

Melee is a joke in 6th ed thats why you don't enjoy Tactical Marines. There not gak they just have useless stats,
like Ws4 when they only need Ws1 & Str4 again 1 would have done fine.
Back in the good old days of 3rd & 4th ed, there were no AP 3 flamers. Power armour was awesome all power weapons were AP2, Grey knights were gak & Orks had Choppa's & all was right in the world.
I'm hoping that in the 6th ed Ork codex, that grot have the new stat line of Ws0 Bs3 S0 T1 W1 A0 Ld2 Sv- equipment grot blaster (las gun) krak bombs (krak grenades)
with codex creep they should about 2 point each but if matt the ward has written the codex you never know 1/2 a point maybe 1/3 of a point. It's all down to how much he never play tested the units before a release. Maybe he will do a Grey knight codex & because the unit has a the word force in the weapons title, he made a wholearmy of force weapons. wait for IT all Grots get Grotzooka from the Killa Kans . You know because of the Grot zooka bit. Come On You Know He Is That Dumb

Charcaradon chapter tatics make marines a cc threat and you can buy extra cc weapons for your tacticals. Unfortunatly they have few alies. Still I love you now forgeworld.

Yorkskargrim wrote:
Melee is a joke in 6th ed thats why you don't enjoy Tactical Marines. There not gak they just have useless stats,
like Ws4 when they only need Ws1 & Str4 again 1 would have done fine.
Back in the good old days of 3rd & 4th ed, there were no AP 3 flamers. Power armour was awesome all power weapons were AP2, Grey knights were gak & Orks had Choppa's & all was right in the world.
I'm hoping that in the 6th ed Ork codex, that grot have the new stat line of Ws0 Bs3 S0 T1 W1 A0 Ld2 Sv- equipment grot blaster (las gun) krak bombs (krak grenades)
with codex creep they should about 2 point each but if matt ward has written the codex you never know 1/2 a point maybe 1/3 of a point. It's all down to how much he never play tested the units before a release. Maybe he will do a Grey knight codex & because the unit has a the word force in the weapons title, he made a wholearmy of force weapons. wait for IT all Grots get Grotzooka from the Killa Kans. You know because of the Grotzooka bit. Come On You Know He Is That Dumb

...you do realize that the Nemesis Force Weapons have been the iconic weapon for the Grey Knights since forever, and worked as Force Weapons in 3rd ed, right? Speaking of dumb stuff, I mean.

The Nemesis Force Weapons gave you +2 str bro
You had to Be an IC for it to be a real Force Weapons


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm i really the only person on here that actually played 3ed, 4th & 5th

I did.

I started with 1st when it was Rouge Trader and the big red book.

Played second and third. Kinda skipped fourth, played a bit of fifth, then sixth came out. *shrug*

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Played second and third. Kinda skipped fourth, played a bit of fifth, then sixth came out. *shrug*

Exact same experience here. 4th hit right when I went to college, then grad school, and by the time I got back to playing again 5th was like halfway over.

If tactical squads ever had a "golden age" it would be 3rd, when rhino rush was a possibility and you could stay relatively safe in close combat for the entire game, consolidating from combat to combat. So I'd say Yorkskargrim is partly right (aside from the nearly incoherent rambling that made up the last half of that post). Tactical marines are paying for WS, Strength, and Initiative that hardly ever get used in 6th, and a higher Toughness and 3+ save that are more relevant in close combat than against shooting (proliferation of high strength and/or low AP weapons and the easy availability of 4+ cover make toughness and armor less relevant against shooting than in hand to hand, where the vast majority of units in the game have S3/4 and no AP).

Lack of assault vehicles, inability to consolidate into new combats, and rapid fire weapons limiting your firepower on any turn you do manage to set up an assault, are probably the biggest issues tactical marines face (and most marine units in general). You're paying for abilities that 6th edition is stacked against and that no competent enemy will let you utilize.

Yorkskargrim wrote:
The Nemesis Force Weapons gave you +2 str bro
You had to Be an IC for it to be a real Force Weapons


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm i really the only person on here that actually played 3ed, 4th & 5th

...so it worked like a Force Weapon then?

Honestly, complaining that Mat Ward gave Grey Knights Force Weapons all around is silly, since he went with what they were described as wielding. Your comparison to Grotzookas is frankly insane, and your PM to me to shut up is rude. If you can't argue in a coherent way without insulting people I suggest you don't argue at all.

Not the way they do now, 4th ed were not what they are now.

Yorkskargrim wrote:
The Nemesis Force Weapons gave you +2 str bro
You had to Be an IC for it to be a real Force Weapons


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm i really the only person on here that actually played 3ed, 4th & 5th

It doesn't matter. Your warhammer tenure means feth all. This isn't 5th edition, isn't 4th edition, and it isn't third. It's sixth.

I know it's 6th ed. Because I can't get anyone to play a game. There only interested in playing blood bowl or hordes. Other then Flyers, snap fire, overwatch, rapidfire, and challenged. Melee being a total joke & any Codex written by Matt Ward. 6th ed is kind of playable


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A friend of mine said best he has invested too much money to quit playing now and I feel like that's where most of you are coming from. Have you had the rumours that GW is already thinking about releasing 7th ed because 6th ed was so terrible,

Well, in my day, all Grey Knights were Terminators! And they had force halberds! With built-in storm bolters!

You modern upstarts with your gauntlet-mounted storm bolters and PAGK and nemesis force guisarmes don't know how good you've got it!

Humph.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
...3+ tissue paper armor...

3+ is tissue paper armour? It's the second best armour in the game.

Which doesn't matter when the enemy has Bladestorm on every single weapon, or throws around 1204162371254609125460125402184658021652401625402.5 shots. Fpr the points, Power Armour is rubbish, which is what we've been saying throughout the thread.

Bladestorm is your argument? BLADESTORM!?

Do you realize how many shots you need to get a single Bladestorm wound on the Tacticals? It may be an argument for Terminators that are twice as expensive or more as the Tacticals with twice the life expectancy (for the unenlightened) but for Space Marine Tactical Squad that's not a big issue. It takes a full squad of Dire Avengers to get to an average of one semi-rend. One. The last edition Dire Avengers had a better version of Bladestorm for taking care of Tactical Marines, and those Dire Avengers while the only decent troop choice was still not a very good choice compared to that edition's Tactical squad.

Try again and try better.

 Mahtamori wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
...3+ tissue paper armor...

3+ is tissue paper armour? It's the second best armour in the game.

Which doesn't matter when the enemy has Bladestorm on every single weapon, or throws around 1204162371254609125460125402184658021652401625402.5 shots. Fpr the points, Power Armour is rubbish, which is what we've been saying throughout the thread.

Bladestorm is your argument? BLADESTORM!?

Do you realize how many shots you need to get a single Bladestorm wound on the Tacticals? It may be an argument for Terminators that are twice as expensive or more as the Tacticals with twice the life expectancy (for the unenlightened) but for Space Marine Tactical Squad that's not a big issue. It takes a full squad of Dire Avengers to get to an average of one semi-rend. One. The last edition Dire Avengers had a better version of Bladestorm for taking care of Tactical Marines, and those Dire Avengers while the only decent troop choice was still not a very good choice compared to that edition's Tactical squad.

Try again and try better.

You missed the 1204162371254609125460125402184658021652401625402.5 shots.

 Mahtamori wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
...3+ tissue paper armor...

3+ is tissue paper armour? It's the second best armour in the game.

Which doesn't matter when the enemy has Bladestorm on every single weapon, or throws around 1204162371254609125460125402184658021652401625402.5 shots. Fpr the points, Power Armour is rubbish, which is what we've been saying throughout the thread.

Bladestorm is your argument? BLADESTORM!?

Do you realize how many shots you need to get a single Bladestorm wound on the Tacticals? It may be an argument for Terminators that are twice as expensive or more as the Tacticals with twice the life expectancy (for the unenlightened) but for Space Marine Tactical Squad that's not a big issue. It takes a full squad of Dire Avengers to get to an average of one semi-rend. One. The last edition Dire Avengers had a better version of Bladestorm for taking care of Tactical Marines, and those Dire Avengers while the only decent troop choice was still not a very good choice compared to that edition's Tactical squad.

Try again and try better.

Ok, how about the fact that I can put an AP2 weapon on every Eldar vehicle?

 Mahtamori wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
...3+ tissue paper armor...

3+ is tissue paper armour? It's the second best armour in the game.

Which doesn't matter when the enemy has Bladestorm on every single weapon, or throws around 1204162371254609125460125402184658021652401625402.5 shots. Fpr the points, Power Armour is rubbish, which is what we've been saying throughout the thread.

Bladestorm is your argument? BLADESTORM!?

Do you realize how many shots you need to get a single Bladestorm wound on the Tacticals? It may be an argument for Terminators that are twice as expensive or more as the Tacticals with twice the life expectancy (for the unenlightened) but for Space Marine Tactical Squad that's not a big issue. It takes a full squad of Dire Avengers to get to an average of one semi-rend. One. The last edition Dire Avengers had a better version of Bladestorm for taking care of Tactical Marines, and those Dire Avengers while the only decent troop choice was still not a very good choice compared to that edition's Tactical squad.

Try again and try better.

Scatterlasers. Done. Eldar are disgusting this edition. Don't even try to pretend marines are good against Eldar. They're not.

Martel732 wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
...3+ tissue paper armor...

3+ is tissue paper armour? It's the second best armour in the game.

Which doesn't matter when the enemy has Bladestorm on every single weapon, or throws around 1204162371254609125460125402184658021652401625402.5 shots. Fpr the points, Power Armour is rubbish, which is what we've been saying throughout the thread.

Bladestorm is your argument? BLADESTORM!?

Do you realize how many shots you need to get a single Bladestorm wound on the Tacticals? It may be an argument for Terminators that are twice as expensive or more as the Tacticals with twice the life expectancy (for the unenlightened) but for Space Marine Tactical Squad that's not a big issue. It takes a full squad of Dire Avengers to get to an average of one semi-rend. One. The last edition Dire Avengers had a better version of Bladestorm for taking care of Tactical Marines, and those Dire Avengers while the only decent troop choice was still not a very good choice compared to that edition's Tactical squad.

Try again and try better.

Scatterlasers. Done. Eldar are disgusting this edition. Don't even try to pretend marines are good against Eldar. They're not.

Agreed Dire avenger dive out of a wave serpent and what ever marines are there are always going to be destroyed end of

McNinja: An ap2 weapon on every vehicle? Really? I can understand if someone complains about the Scatter Laser, but the AP2 weapons?! You do realize that Space Marines have access to better AP2 weapons, right? And you realize that this is a thread about Tactical Marines and their supposed short comings and not about Terminators?

brother marcus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
...3+ tissue paper armor...

3+ is tissue paper armour? It's the second best armour in the game.

Which doesn't matter when the enemy has Bladestorm on every single weapon, or throws around 1204162371254609125460125402184658021652401625402.5 shots. Fpr the points, Power Armour is rubbish, which is what we've been saying throughout the thread.

Bladestorm is your argument? BLADESTORM!?

Do you realize how many shots you need to get a single Bladestorm wound on the Tacticals? It may be an argument for Terminators that are twice as expensive or more as the Tacticals with twice the life expectancy (for the unenlightened) but for Space Marine Tactical Squad that's not a big issue. It takes a full squad of Dire Avengers to get to an average of one semi-rend. One. The last edition Dire Avengers had a better version of Bladestorm for taking care of Tactical Marines, and those Dire Avengers while the only decent troop choice was still not a very good choice compared to that edition's Tactical squad.

Try again and try better.

Scatterlasers. Done. Eldar are disgusting this edition. Don't even try to pretend marines are good against Eldar. They're not.

Agreed Dire avenger dive out of a wave serpent and what ever marines are there are always going to be destroyed end of

Oh no, you guys, don't get me started on Wave Serpents. I'm neither blind, nor stupid, I know where the overpowered piles lie smelling in my own codex, I'm railing against the fact that someone actually had the gall to claim that 1 AP2 wound out of 6 from a 10 man 130+ point unit of Dire Avengers would somehow make for a good example of how Space Marines in Power Armour was underpowered. In a straight up fire fight, Dire Avengers will slowly lose against Tactical Marines, with a slight evenness if assuming the same point cost, unless the Space Marines make it into close combat at which point they will slaughter the Dire Avengers. The only hope Dire Avengers have against Tactical Marines is to stack the odds, meaning bringing far superior numbers/points to bear to eliminate key targets.

Dire Avengers are nice, but they are on the same level as Tactical Marines.

The problem you have with Dire Avengers is, again, Wave Serpents. Which are with their Serpent Shield and the interaction of Scatter Laser, a pile of gak as far as game balance is concerned. Wave Serpents are not the same as Dire Avengers nor do Wave Serpents benefit much at all from Bladestorm. Bladestorm is there to make Eldar infantry NOT SUCK, since otherwise their weapon would be a heavily nerfed Bolter (which you guys seem to hate).

Do you know what has bladestorm other than Dire Avengers? Shuriken Cannons. Do you know what platform Shuriken Cannons come on? I'll give you a hint: I never mentioned Dire Avengers, that was you.

Also, for the record, you still missed the 1204162371254609125460125402184658021652401625402.5 shots that I mentioned.

I'll just direct you to earlier parts of the thread where we pointed out how troops that don't overpay for their armour save is much better than those that do, because cover is free.

 Mahtamori wrote:
McNinja: An ap2 weapon on every vehicle? Really? I can understand if someone complains about the Scatter Laser, but the AP2 weapons?! You do realize that Space Marines have access to better AP2 weapons, right? And you realize that this is a thread about Tactical Marines and their supposed short comings and not about Terminators?

brother marcus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
...3+ tissue paper armor...

3+ is tissue paper armour? It's the second best armour in the game.

Which doesn't matter when the enemy has Bladestorm on every single weapon, or throws around 1204162371254609125460125402184658021652401625402.5 shots. Fpr the points, Power Armour is rubbish, which is what we've been saying throughout the thread.

Bladestorm is your argument? BLADESTORM!?

Do you realize how many shots you need to get a single Bladestorm wound on the Tacticals? It may be an argument for Terminators that are twice as expensive or more as the Tacticals with twice the life expectancy (for the unenlightened) but for Space Marine Tactical Squad that's not a big issue. It takes a full squad of Dire Avengers to get to an average of one semi-rend. One. The last edition Dire Avengers had a better version of Bladestorm for taking care of Tactical Marines, and those Dire Avengers while the only decent troop choice was still not a very good choice compared to that edition's Tactical squad.

Try again and try better.

Scatterlasers. Done. Eldar are disgusting this edition. Don't even try to pretend marines are good against Eldar. They're not.

Agreed Dire avenger dive out of a wave serpent and what ever marines are there are always going to be destroyed end of

Oh no, you guys, don't get me started on Wave Serpents. I'm neither blind, nor stupid, I know where the overpowered piles lie smelling in my own codex, I'm railing against the fact that someone actually had the gall to claim that 1 AP2 wound out of 6 from a 10 man 130+ point unit of Dire Avengers would somehow make for a good example of how Space Marines in Power Armour was underpowered. In a straight up fire fight, Dire Avengers will slowly lose against Tactical Marines, with a slight evenness if assuming the same point cost, unless the Space Marines make it into close combat at which point they will slaughter the Dire Avengers. The only hope Dire Avengers have against Tactical Marines is to stack the odds, meaning bringing far superior numbers/points to bear to eliminate key targets.

Dire Avengers are nice, but they are on the same level as Tactical Marines.

The problem you have with Dire Avengers is, again, Wave Serpents. Which are with their Serpent Shield and the interaction of Scatter Laser, a pile of gak as far as game balance is concerned. Wave Serpents are not the same as Dire Avengers nor do Wave Serpents benefit much at all from Bladestorm. Bladestorm is there to make Eldar infantry NOT SUCK, since otherwise their weapon would be a heavily nerfed Bolter (which you guys seem to hate).

No. I refuse to believe this I play a lot of eldar and my tacticals have never been able to outshoot dire avengers

And let's be honest tactical marines do suck I mean yes they can combat squad which I think is pretty pointless it just makes them easier to kill. ATSKNF Is severely overrated Aswel

And yes the boltgun sucks its only effective as a weapon when Bolter drill is included from IF. I mean eldar get bladestorm necrons get glance on 6's, orks get loads of shots guard have orders and weight of fire making lasguns effective, tau have s5 range 30 and what do marines get a s4 ap5 single shot weapon gee thanks for that

Lets be fair tactical marines really dont suck, theyre actually right in the "balanced" zone of unit power I think. They have decent survivability, decent weapons, and a good statline. Theyre effective against all targets in some way (very few troops units have this advantage) and they cost the same as a dire avengers, which while being stronger close range than tacticals, are not as flexible and far weaker. Also the argument for cover is actually a bit of a moot point when discussing eldar infantry due to their short weapon ranges.

Yes wave serpents are overpowered, and they make eldar infantry very good, everyone knows this and itll stay this way until the next eldar codex which hopefully puts the serpent shield back to something like it was in 4th ed.

Tacticals though, are not bad units. Infact I think armies with large numbers of tactical marines actually fare rather well. I think maybe some of it is the SM oriented metagame still, which means people plan their armies around killing space marines. This is starting to die out now which is a good thing, but definately around 4th and 5th, you would specifically build your army and rate weapon choices on "how good is this at killing space marines"

If you want to talk about a bad space marine unit lets bring up the subject of assault marines

Bobug wrote:
Lets be fair tactical marines really dont suck, theyre actually right in the "balanced" zone of unit power I think. They have decent survivability, decent weapons, and a good statline. Theyre effective against all targets in some way (very few troops units have this advantage) and they cost the same as a dire avengers, which while being stronger close range than tacticals, are not as flexible and far weaker. Also the argument for cover is actually a bit of a moot point when discussing eldar infantry due to their short weapon ranges.

Yes wave serpents are overpowered, and they make eldar infantry very good, everyone knows this and itll stay this way until the next eldar codex which hopefully puts the serpent shield back to something like it was in 4th ed.

Tacticals though, are not bad units. Infact I think armies with large numbers of tactical marines actually fare rather well. I think maybe some of it is the SM oriented metagame still, which means people plan their armies around killing space marines. This is starting to die out now which is a good thing, but definately around 4th and 5th, you would specifically build your army and rate weapon choices on "how good is this at killing space marines"

If you want to talk about a bad space marine unit lets bring up the subject of assault marines

If only there were some sort of post in this thread outlining why generalists are worse than specialists... if only...

Bobug wrote:
Lets be fair tactical marines really dont suck, theyre actually right in the "balanced" zone of unit power I think. They have decent survivability, decent weapons, and a good statline. Theyre effective against all targets in some way (very few troops units have this advantage) and they cost the same as a dire avengers, which while being stronger close range than tacticals, are not as flexible and far weaker. Also the argument for cover is actually a bit of a moot point when discussing eldar infantry due to their short weapon ranges.

Yes wave serpents are overpowered, and they make eldar infantry very good, everyone knows this and itll stay this way until the next eldar codex which hopefully puts the serpent shield back to something like it was in 4th ed.

Tacticals though, are not bad units. Infact I think armies with large numbers of tactical marines actually fare rather well. I think maybe some of it is the SM oriented metagame still, which means people plan their armies around killing space marines. This is starting to die out now which is a good thing, but definately around 4th and 5th, you would specifically build your army and rate weapon choices on "how good is this at killing space marines"

If you want to talk about a bad space marine unit lets bring up the subject of assault marines

Yes, they do suck because they overpay for being generalists. This is not a game of generalists.

"Oh no, you guys, don't get me started on Wave Serpents. I'm neither blind, nor stupid, I know where the overpowered piles lie smelling in my own codex, I'm railing against the fact that someone actually had the gall to claim that 1 AP2 wound out of 6 from a 10 man 130+ point unit of Dire Avengers would somehow make for a good example of how Space Marines in Power Armour was underpowered. In a straight up fire fight, Dire Avengers will slowly lose against Tactical Marines, with a slight evenness if assuming the same point cost, unless the Space Marines make it into close combat at which point they will slaughter the Dire Avengers. The only hope Dire Avengers have against Tactical Marines is to stack the odds, meaning bringing far superior numbers/points to bear to eliminate key targets.

Dire Avengers are nice, but they are on the same level as Tactical Marines.

The problem you have with Dire Avengers is, again, Wave Serpents. Which are with their Serpent Shield and the interaction of Scatter Laser, a pile of gak as far as game balance is concerned. Wave Serpents are not the same as Dire Avengers nor do Wave Serpents benefit much at all from Bladestorm. Bladestorm is there to make Eldar infantry NOT SUCK, since otherwise their weapon would be a heavily nerfed Bolter (which you guys seem to hate).'"

In the current meta, I'll take DIre Avengers everytime. They can put wounds on any toughness value, and rend though any armor. And run after the fact. Yes, maybe in a vacuum, the tacticals slowly kill them, but in the bigger picture, DA are way better.