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In the nicest way possible your opinion dosnt really count any more if you haven't had the displeasure of your tactical marines being destroyed by eldar and tau

Then perhapes the thread should be:
Making Tactical Marines suck less vs Eldar and Tau

 Anpu42 wrote:
Then perhaps the thread should be:
Making Tactical Marines suck less vs Eldar and Tau

Considering that those armies are the top 2 armies right now, it makes sense that Tactical marines would be compared to them and their troops.

Of course I would have to agree, in what is a basically a 5th edition meta, Tactical marines are just fine because they got a point reduction. However, if you start playing with 6th edition armies, and especially the two best armies, you'll soon realize that tactical marines really aren't that good.

 McNinja wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Then perhaps the thread should be:
Making Tactical Marines suck less vs Eldar and Tau

Considering that those armies are the top 2 armies right now, it makes sense that Tactical marines would be compared to them and their troops.

Of course I would have to agree, in what is a basically a 5th edition meta, Tactical marines are just fine because they got a point reduction. However, if you start playing with 6th edition armies, and especially the two best armies, you'll soon realize that tactical marines really aren't that good.

Thank you for not saying "They Suck"

But tacticals don't even stand up to BA. BA ASM will literally jump over your optimum range and take minimal casualties in the process. BA ASM work against SM tacticals because tacticals represent a nontrivial investment. Compare this to assaulting Kroot only to get hit with the Riptide splat cannon as a reward for winning. SM have to work HARD to get my BA off the table. The Tau and Eldar yawn and I die.

Martel732 wrote:
But tacticals don't even stand up to BA. BA ASM will literally jump over your optimum range and take minimal casualties in the process. BA ASM work against SM tacticals because tacticals represent a nontrivial investment. Compare this to assaulting Kroot only to get hit with the Riptide splat cannon as a reward for winning. SM have to work HARD to get my BA off the table. The Tau and Eldar yawn and I die.

By BA, you mean Blood Angels?

Yes. And BA are the worst list and vanilla marines still have to work pretty hard. Even grav bikers don't get a pass because I have SoS and FNP. Marines just can't shell out the wounds fast enough to cripple me.

 McNinja wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:
McNinja: An ap2 weapon on every vehicle? Really? I can understand if someone complains about the Scatter Laser, but the AP2 weapons?! You do realize that Space Marines have access to better AP2 weapons, right? And you realize that this is a thread about Tactical Marines and their supposed short comings and not about Terminators?

You do realize that I started the thread, right? Anyway, the fact that the Eldar have access on every single vehicle to powerful AP2 weaponry is indeed an issue for Marines.

They do not have access to better AP2 weapons. Sure, grav-guns are good, but those are really only taken on Bikes or Centurions so you can get full number of shots. SM plasma is not as good as Eldar plasma, if only because it can't be spammed nearly as much. Not only does almost every weapon have the potential to be AP2/1, but you can put those weapon on literally every vehicle. There is not a single Eldar vehicle than cannot be equipped with an AP2 weapon.

Can every marine vehicle have an AP2 weapon stuck on it? And for that matter, why do marines pay 20 points for an assault cannon when Eldar pay half or less for a Shuriken Cannon or Starcannon?

Even thread starters can go off topic.

AP2 weapons: yeah, I think the Imperium has better AP2 weapons. They usually shoot longer, hard and/or on a larger area than the Eldar variants (and typically pay for it with Gets Hot!)

Assault Cannon: I love those things. Why more expensive than the Shuriken Cannon? One extra shot and real rending, maybe? Can't gauge whether these advantages are worth the price difference, 'cause I haven't reflected on it at all. All I have reflected on them is that they are oddly highly priced when compared to the Cyclone Missile Launcher (which I should note is a very inexpensive, all things considered) - but they look so much more cool, which is why I still have them modelled and tend to use them as a stand-in.
Scatter Laser? Don't understand why those got both a cost decrease (by 5 in most cases, iirc) and Laser Lock. Either or would've done it if they needed even that. I'm not going to defend Scatter Lasers.

Vehicles: Imperium loves their asymmetrical Dreadnought set ups, which makes min/maxing harder. I've gone through the Dark Angels codex (right now I don't know where I put my iPad so can't check C:SM) and I can say "Yes, all Marine chassis can take one or more AP2 weapons, with the exception of the Drop Pod". Lascannons are extremely common, and multi-meltas are likewise common on models that do not have access to Lascannons. However, is AP2 a big deal? What do you need AP2 against? Other Space Marines? Terminators? Weren't those the kind of troops that suck because there's too much AP2? I'll grant you that Marine vehicles are bad at AP3 (although so is Eldar vehicles, where Marine weapons tend to be AP4 or AP2, Eldar tend to be AP- with gimmick or AP2). Also, the Nightspinner can't fit any AP2 weapons on it, it's only getting 1-in-6 hits to be AP2.

My stance remains unimpressed. Tacticals do not suck. Yeah, of course stuff could do with refinements, but the amount of fan service some people seem to be demanding is ridiculous (and the hyperbole when griefing about the Eldar). And before you say anything, that's exactly how I often reacted about some (recurring) suggestions to make Eldar suck less during 5th edition, there are just so many fewer die-hard Eldar players on these forums that those threads didn't need to spill over from the proposed rules forum.

Give them a chainsword (reward them when they get into that juicy place where their power armour really shine). Maybe allow them to choose between any combination of 1 to 2 heavy or special weapons. That's about it.

Now if you make a thread about assault marines, I'll jump aboard the band wagon, 'cause a chainsword is not as good as a bolter and a jump pack do not cost 4 points per model and loss of scoring/troop slot.

Martel732 wrote:
Yes. And BA are the worst list and vanilla marines still have to work pretty hard. Even grav bikers don't get a pass because I have SoS and FNP. Marines just can't shell out the wounds fast enough to cripple me.

What Chapter Tactics have you delt with so far?

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Yes. And BA are the worst list and vanilla marines still have to work pretty hard. Even grav bikers don't get a pass because I have SoS and FNP. Marines just can't shell out the wounds fast enough to cripple me.

What Chapter Tactics have you delt with so far?

All the usual, IH, White Scars, Salamanders, the siege dudes. They are jokes compared to Tau and Eldar. There's nothing they can field that kills me even 2/3 as quickly as the Tau or Eldar. Inquisition allies help a lot, but at the end of the day, they have too few weapons being hit by that cheap prescience. Imperials can't compete with a prescienced war walker squad. I still lose about half the time, but I'm using BA. My games against Eldar are usually over by turn 3.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mahtamori wrote:

 McNinja wrote:

 Mahtamori wrote:
McNinja: An ap2 weapon on every vehicle? Really? I can understand if someone complains about the Scatter Laser, but the AP2 weapons?! You do realize that Space Marines have access to better AP2 weapons, right? And you realize that this is a thread about Tactical Marines and their supposed short comings and not about Terminators?

You do realize that I started the thread, right? Anyway, the fact that the Eldar have access on every single vehicle to powerful AP2 weaponry is indeed an issue for Marines.

They do not have access to better AP2 weapons. Sure, grav-guns are good, but those are really only taken on Bikes or Centurions so you can get full number of shots. SM plasma is not as good as Eldar plasma, if only because it can't be spammed nearly as much. Not only does almost every weapon have the potential to be AP2/1, but you can put those weapon on literally every vehicle. There is not a single Eldar vehicle than cannot be equipped with an AP2 weapon.

Can every marine vehicle have an AP2 weapon stuck on it? And for that matter, why do marines pay 20 points for an assault cannon when Eldar pay half or less for a Shuriken Cannon or Starcannon?

Even thread starters can go off topic.

AP2 weapons: yeah, I think the Imperium has better AP2 weapons. They usually shoot longer, hard and/or on a larger area than the Eldar variants (and typically pay for it with Gets Hot!)

Assault Cannon: I love those things. Why more expensive than the Shuriken Cannon? One extra shot and real rending, maybe? Can't gauge whether these advantages are worth the price difference, 'cause I haven't reflected on it at all. All I have reflected on them is that they are oddly highly priced when compared to the Cyclone Missile Launcher (which I should note is a very inexpensive, all things considered) - but they look so much more cool, which is why I still have them modelled and tend to use them as a stand-in.
Scatter Laser? Don't understand why those got both a cost decrease (by 5 in most cases, iirc) and Laser Lock. Either or would've done it if they needed even that. I'm not going to defend Scatter Lasers.

Vehicles: Imperium loves their asymmetrical Dreadnought set ups, which makes min/maxing harder. I've gone through the Dark Angels codex (right now I don't know where I put my iPad so can't check C:SM) and I can say "Yes, all Marine chassis can take one or more AP2 weapons, with the exception of the Drop Pod". Lascannons are extremely common, and multi-meltas are likewise common on models that do not have access to Lascannons. However, is AP2 a big deal? What do you need AP2 against? Other Space Marines? Terminators? Weren't those the kind of troops that suck because there's too much AP2? I'll grant you that Marine vehicles are bad at AP3 (although so is Eldar vehicles, where Marine weapons tend to be AP4 or AP2, Eldar tend to be AP- with gimmick or AP2). Also, the Nightspinner can't fit any AP2 weapons on it, it's only getting 1-in-6 hits to be AP2.

My stance remains unimpressed. Tacticals do not suck. Yeah, of course stuff could do with refinements, but the amount of fan service some people seem to be demanding is ridiculous (and the hyperbole when griefing about the Eldar). And before you say anything, that's exactly how I often reacted about some (recurring) suggestions to make Eldar suck less during 5th edition, there are just so many fewer die-hard Eldar players on these forums that those threads didn't need to spill over from the proposed rules forum.

Give them a chainsword (reward them when they get into that juicy place where their power armour really shine). Maybe allow them to choose between any combination of 1 to 2 heavy or special weapons. That's about it.

Now if you make a thread about assault marines, I'll jump aboard the band wagon, 'cause a chainsword is not as good as a bolter and a jump pack do not cost 4 points per model and loss of scoring/troop slot.

Assault cannons are crap. Not to derail, but Imperial heavy weapons are not good. Not at all. Especially those for loyalist marines.

Okay; I'll change from "tacticals suck" to "tacticals are awful". Better?

Martel732 wrote:
Assault cannons are crap. Not to derail, but Imperial heavy weapons are not good. Not at all. Especially those for loyalist marines.

Okay; I'll change from "tacticals suck" to "tacticals are awful". Better?

They don't suck. Actually, some of them may suck in the same way that Starcannons and Brightlances used to suck*. Which is to say that a small cost decrease can very well make them ultimately more attractive. Just keep in mind that Eldar did pay for their buffs in a very weird way - I now have to rip all my missile launchers off my vehicles because they are so bloody expensive they're indefensible to use. (They cost more than a Cyclone Missile Launcher, which has double rate of fire and near exact same stats)

I don't see the big fuss at all with regards to Tacticals. I'm sure you and me would be able to sit down and make a through analysis of the entire codex and eventually come to an agreement, but I just don't see a major issue here that requires massive buffs.

* Honestly, my Marine list building is more an exercise in "what kind of weapons can I actually use on my models" rather than min/maxing, because I'm dead set on only using Scibor models and that sort of limits my use of missile launchers and heavy bolters. I still do fairly well, albeit my Gets Hot! rolls are strictly below average usually resulting in me losing more plasma models to Gets Hot! than I do to enemy actions prior to turn 3.

Tacticals suck because they don't DO anything. No pro-tactical person has explained how they accomplish anything with these troops. I have given very specific reasons why tacticals are terrible.

They're objective sitters or drop-pod troops in a low objectives game for me. Usually does the job fine. Needs other more dedicated troops to accomplish things. Glorious? No. Suck? No.

Okay. I understand your point. Now understand mine. Other books have troops that do the same job for less points, AND can contribute meaningfully in the offensive portion of the game. I don't understand why you are content to throw away points on units that don't contribute in a list with model count issues.

 Mahtamori wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Do you know what has bladestorm other than Dire Avengers? Shuriken Cannons. Do you know what platform Shuriken Cannons come on? I'll give you a hint: I never mentioned Dire Avengers, that was you.

Also, for the record, you still missed the 1204162371254609125460125402184658021652401625402.5 shots that I mentioned.

I'll just direct you to earlier parts of the thread where we pointed out how troops that don't overpay for their armour save is much better than those that do, because cover is free.

Oh, skip the exaggregation, please.

10 Dire Avengers kill 1,42 Space Marines without Rending and 2,2 with Rending shots.
7 Space Marines kill 3 and a slightly larger fraction of a Dire Avenger in return fire.
6 Space Marines kill 2,61 Dire Avengers

Assumptions:
1. Space Marines do not have a heavy weapon.
2. Dire Avengers are not able to Battle Focus out of Rapid Fire range.
3. Space Marines do not have cover.
4. Dire Avengers actually got lucky and didn't miss

That's a rather big assumption. If you're at 18" (so max range for Dire Avengers) you need to roll a 1 to get out of Rapid Fire range, so yeah... Number four also assume that the Marines don't miss, so that's a wash. Further, Dire Avengers are a point cheaper than the Marines as well.

And you're stuck on the Dire Avengers; you're the one who brought them up.

Martel732 wrote:
Okay. I understand your point. Now understand mine. Other books have troops that do the same job for less points, AND can contribute meaningfully in the offensive portion of the game. I don't understand why you are content to throw away points on units that don't contribute in a list with model count issues.

This, for the love of small furry critters, this! Being able to plop down 10 Guardians with a heavy weapon, or 10 Cultists, or 10 Grots, or 10 Kroot, or 10 Nurglings, or 10... in cover, sitting on an objective is better than paying 50+ points more to do the same. Those 50 points add up across the army (as I've demonstrated). If you're going to throw a unit at a backfield objective it really needs to be cheap so it can benefit from cover. Plopping 5 Marines with a Lascannon down at a backfield objective isn't done because it's good, it's done because there's no option to take 10 models for 50 points who can simply hide all game, while investing the saved 40-odd points in something that'll actually kill people.

Martel732 wrote:
Okay. I understand your point. Now understand mine. Other books have troops that do the same job for less points, AND can contribute meaningfully in the offensive portion of the game. I don't understand why you are content to throw away points on units that don't contribute in a list with model count issues.

They are suposed to do the same job as every other Troop out there. I think with the exeption of Imperial Guard evey other Army's Troop Choice has a specific Job they perform within the Army.
Space Marine Tactical Squads are suposed to do everything! Whehn you do that you loose out on some things. Thier Flexability is thier weakness. You are givien the tools to do any job that is required, but it is always in a Stop-Gap way. This is the way they have been designed from day one.
You need to Assault a position you want Assualt Marines
You want to take down Vehicles you take Devistaters
You want to Assisnate a HQ/MC you take Sternguad/Terminators
You want to do everything you take Tactical Marines.
That is what they are for. That is what they do.
If I know I am facing Tau or Eldar, I will probably go with a pod list just to get close to you, most lickly using Imperial Fist or Ultramarines to get thos re-rolls with my weapons and try to inflict as much damage as posible and I have the tools to do it. Your Riptide will probably take 20 Plasma Shots from my Sternguard, Broadside will take 7 Boltguns, 4 Plasma Shots and probably Heavy Bolters or Multi Melta's., thene there is my turn 2. If I realy felt I needed to kill somthing add 10 Melta-Guns in there someplace from my second Sternguard inplace of one of my Tactical Squads.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Okay. I understand your point. Now understand mine. Other books have troops that do the same job for less points, AND can contribute meaningfully in the offensive portion of the game. I don't understand why you are content to throw away points on units that don't contribute in a list with model count issues.

They are suposed to do the same job as every other Troop out there. I think with the exeption of Imperial Guard evey other Army's Troop Choice has a specific Job they perform within the Army.
Space Marine Tactical Squads are suposed to do everything! Whehn you do that you loose out on some things. Thier Flexability is thier weakness. You are givien the tools to do any job that is required, but it is always in a Stop-Gap way. This is the way they have been designed from day one.

And the approach sucks. We've been over why generalists are rubbish already.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Okay. I understand your point. Now understand mine. Other books have troops that do the same job for less points, AND can contribute meaningfully in the offensive portion of the game. I don't understand why you are content to throw away points on units that don't contribute in a list with model count issues.

They are suposed to do the same job as every other Troop out there. I think with the exeption of Imperial Guard evey other Army's Troop Choice has a specific Job they perform within the Army.
Space Marine Tactical Squads are suposed to do everything! Whehn you do that you loose out on some things. Thier Flexability is thier weakness. You are givien the tools to do any job that is required, but it is always in a Stop-Gap way. This is the way they have been designed from day one.
You need to Assault a position you want Assualt Marines
You want to take down Vehicles you take Devistaters
You want to Assisnate a HQ/MC you take Sternguad/Terminators
You want to do everything you take Tactical Marines.
That is what they are for. That is what they do.
If I know I am facing Tau or Eldar, I will probably go with a pod list just to get close to you, most lickly using Imperial Fist or Ultramarines to get thos re-rolls with my weapons and try to inflict as much damage as posible and I have the tools to do it. Your Riptide will probably take 20 Plasma Shots from my Sternguard, Broadside will take 7 Boltguns, 4 Plasma Shots and probably Heavy Bolters or Multi Melta's., thene there is my turn 2. If I realy felt I needed to kill somthing add 10 Melta-Guns in there someplace from my second Sternguard inplace of one of my Tactical Squads.

And they are overcharged for their capabilities.

Martel732 wrote:
And they are overcharged for their capabilities.

They=Tactical Squads, right

This whole thread has devolved into worshipping our new Taudar overlords and how much SM suck in the light of their immense glory.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
This whole thread has devolved into worshipping our new Taudar overlords and how much SM suck in the light of their immense glory.

Yeup!

So the main problem lies within durability+firepower+cost. Marine's durability was good back in the 5 ed, firepower was meh but oki and point cost was a bit high like 1 point more than it should have been. So what changes now. They get significant point decrease and have all the things like they used to have...but now this rate of firepower is not nearly enough and they have real problems with durability. It's not the marines but xenos that got overbuffed.

So you want to make them more durable? Look at plague marines. Are csm all totally happy with them? t5 fnp is awesome. And they pay for it appropriately pointwise. And when you pay 300 pts for 10 definitely tough guyz they apear to be a pointsink cause they lack punch. At range those 7 bolters, 2 plazmas/meltas and combi-something on serg are not nearly worth 300 pts. So what's left to a really tough guy that has bad firepower? Right - go chop things in mellee. So by increasing toughness you shift tacticals to a heavilly assault-oriented choice.
Don't get me wrong. Plague marines are amazing but i'd never take them en masse cause 1 unit is great and rather reliable. When you mass them - you loose so much firepower - you can no longer do anything.

So you want marines to be shootier! Imagine they all got analogues of pulse rifles but with same durability they got now. U pay points apropriately for it once again. And here you go - stuck with a gunline army that sits behind an adl and shoots the hell out of opponent. So you get a slightly more durable tau gunline for more pointscost that's even more afraid of helldrakes and ap3 barrage.

The way to make them shine is either to nerf others or buff them a bit with a lil point increase. Why not give them all fnp? It's rather fluffy. Why not buff bolter a bit to be something like rapid fire 2/3 and stormbolters rapid fire 3/4. Give them 2 base attacke. And make them cost around 20 pts for all that goodness. I think that will make them good without going over-the top.

 koooaei wrote:
So the main problem lies within durability+firepower+cost. Marine's durability was good back in the 5 ed, firepower was meh but oki and point cost was a bit high like 1 point more than it should have been. So what changes now. They get significant point decrease and have all the things like they used to have...but now this rate of firepower is not nearly enough and they have real problems with durability. It's not the marines but xenos that got overbuffed.

So you want to make them more durable? Look at plague marines. Are csm all totally happy with them? t5 fnp is awesome. And they pay for it appropriately pointwise. And when you pay 300 pts for 10 definitely tough guyz they apear to be a pointsink cause they lack punch. At range those 7 bolters, 2 plazmas/meltas and combi-something on serg are not nearly worth 300 pts. So what's left to a really tough guy that has bad firepower? Right - go chop things in mellee. So by increasing toughness you shift tacticals to a heavilly assault-oriented choice.
Don't get me wrong. Plague marines are amazing but i'd never take them en masse cause 1 unit is great and rather reliable. When you mass them - you loose so much firepower - you can no longer do anything.

So you want marines to be shootier! Imagine they all got analogues of pulse rifles but with same durability they got now. U pay points apropriately for it once again. And here you go - stuck with a gunline army that sits behind an adl and shoots the hell out of opponent. So you get a slightly more durable tau gunline for more pointscost that's even more afraid of helldrakes and ap3 barrage.

The way to make them shine is either to nerf others or buff them a bit with a lil point increase. Why not give them all fnp? It's rather fluffy. Why not buff bolter a bit to be something like rapid fire 2/3 and stormbolters rapid fire 3/4. Give them 2 base attacke. And make them cost around 20 pts for all that goodness. I think that will make them good without going over-the top.

You can give then FNP or more accuracy though Chapter Tactics.

It won't help this edition at all, but a good first step is give them all close combat weapons to go with their bolt pistols.

Martel732 wrote:
It won't help this edition at all, but a good first step is give them all close combat weapons to go with their bolt pistols.

That would help a little.

Yea having a cc weapon would help.

I also started another thread on making the Bolter better hell I only recommended giving it an extra shot and the thread turned into "stfu!! look at the marine player moaning again" from a lot of xenos players

So good luck with that

The Xeno players are just high on being OP. Although I must say that Xenos have had more zeniths than marines now for some time. 3rd edition was the only edition where marines were truly, truly OP.

Exactly my point still got swamped with basically "shut up enjoy what you've got" and pulling the ATSKNF card

brother marcus wrote:
Exactly my point still got swamped with basically "shut up enjoy what you've got" and pulling the ATSKNF card

I think ATSKNF is great, but it does not make up for all of the AP3 Weapons out there.

I really don't see much AP3 for some reason, I mostly see AP2.