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Perhaps a around about fix by fixing transports?
Perhaps lowering the points on rhinos and such.

 Desubot wrote:
Perhaps a around about fix by fixing transports?
Perhaps lowering the points on rhinos and such.

Price reduction...could work, or just AV11 all of the way around would help.
3 HP would also work two.
Smoke not being once shot

I was thinking that too, but in another way: make Rhinoes and Drop Pods cheaper for Tactical Marines only. They're the ones who are supposed to be going places, so shouldn't it be better to get a Rhino for a Tactical Squad than for, say, a Devestator Squad?

What's with all the Tactical Marine hate?

I think they're pretty effective units for what they do. 3+, scoring units with equipment flex?

Packed in drop pods, I think they're one of the best objective takers in the game.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I was thinking that too, but in another way: make Rhinoes and Drop Pods cheaper for Tactical Marines only. They're the ones who are supposed to be going places, so shouldn't it be better to get a Rhino for a Tactical Squad than for, say, a Devestator Squad?

Just do it across the board, who takes Rhinos for Devs anyways, now Razorbacks.

 Anpu42 wrote:

brother marcus wrote:
Exactly my point still got swamped with basically "shut up enjoy what you've got" and pulling the ATSKNF card

I think ATSKNF is great, but it does not make up for all of the AP3 Weapons out there.

It's not AP 3, it's sheer volume of wounds. At least against AP 3 you can get cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 smithy12262 wrote:
What's with all the Tactical Marine hate?

I think they're pretty effective units for what they do. 3+, scoring units with equipment flex?

Packed in drop pods, I think they're one of the best objective takers in the game.

No, they're not, because I don't need any gear to be an "objective taker". If you read my earlier posts, I explained how tacticals are a liability because they don't contribute meaningful offense to your list unlike dire avengers or Kroot or fire warriors.

BTW, drop pod is an extremely hazardous thing for a tac squad. You have to commit them very early in the game and after they drop, they are foot slogging. They can't repel an assault-based attack, and *more importantly*, don't have the firepower to cripple most assault-based squads.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

brother marcus wrote:
Exactly my point still got swamped with basically "shut up enjoy what you've got" and pulling the ATSKNF card

I think ATSKNF is great, but it does not make up for all of the AP3 Weapons out there.

It's not AP 3, it's sheer volume of wounds. At least against AP 3 you can get cover.

Yes, the sheer volumes of wound to...

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I really don't see much AP3 for some reason, I mostly see AP2.

Quoted for truth. For all tactical marines flaws, they are still better than terminators.

Making them cheaper might help but it would have to be by at least 10points

But that's not the biggest problem they have. Marines need that cc weapon to be included in their war gear and I would even accept an increase in points for this. But their low damage output is the main problem IMO
make the Bolter 2 shots
Give devs relentless
All cc units need increase in attacks
Terminators need serious help in this edition
And with psychic powers having a bigger emphasis in 6th why did they change the psychic hood ??

How would people feel if you could buy one type of sternguard ammo I.e. ap3 3pts per model ??

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

brother marcus wrote:
Exactly my point still got swamped with basically "shut up enjoy what you've got" and pulling the ATSKNF card

I think ATSKNF is great, but it does not make up for all of the AP3 Weapons out there.

It's not AP 3, it's sheer volume of wounds. At least against AP 3 you can get cover.

Yes, the sheer volumes of wound to...

I point this out because things like grav and plasma actually aren't that fearsome against BA jumpers. We can get mobile cover from a libby and have FNP everywhere. What IS still a problem is taking 50+ wounds a turn or things that double me out and are AP 2/3. Do marines in general have such weapons? NO. It's all Xenos/IG. Even Necrons, a demonstrably superior list to BA, still can't remove my units nearly as easily as the Tau/Eldar.

brother marcus wrote:
Making them cheaper might help but it would have to be by at least 10points

Well we keep getting price decreases…I am not sure that is the solution.

But that's not the biggest problem they have. Marines need that cc weapon to be included in their war gear and I would even accept an increase in points for this. But their low damage output is the main problem IMO

We just need the Combat Knife, I don’t think we need a price increase for that.

make the Bolter 2 shots

either that or AP4

Give devs relentless

That seems to be everyone’s answer, but, giving the Sergeant an Asuspecs would help a lot.

All cc units need increase in attacks

Chain Swords AP5 would make a big difference or the ability to trade in their chain sword for a second Pistol.

Terminators need serious help in this edition

A price decrease, they should never be more than twice a Tactical Marine.

And with psychic powers having a bigger emphasis in 6th why did they change the psychic hood ??

[Shrugs]

How would people feel if you could buy one type of sternguard ammo I.e. ap3 3pts per model??

We do not need more AP3 out there, we need less [and I am not talking about just marines.

 Anpu42 wrote:

brother marcus wrote:
Making them cheaper might help but it would have to be by at least 10points

Well we keep getting price decreases…I am not sure that is the solution.

But that's not the biggest problem they have. Marines need that cc weapon to be included in their war gear and I would even accept an increase in points for this. But their low damage output is the main problem IMO

We just need the Combat Knife, I don’t think we need a price increase for that.

make the Bolter 2 shots

either that or AP4

Give devs relentless

That seems to be everyone’s answer, but, giving the Sergeant an Asuspecs would help a lot.

All cc units need increase in attacks

Chain Swords AP5 would make a big difference or the ability to trade in their chain sword for a second Pistol.

Terminators need serious help in this edition

A price decrease, they should never be more than twice a Tactical Marine.

And with psychic powers having a bigger emphasis in 6th why did they change the psychic hood ??

[Shrugs]

How would people feel if you could buy one type of sternguard ammo I.e. ap3 3pts per model??

We do not need more AP3 out there, we need less [and I am not talking about just marines.

I used to love running terminators now its not even funny to watch them fold :(

Marines desperately need the extra cc attacks the only good cc we have any more is honour guard
Tacticals should have the combat knife
Assault and vanguard 3 attacks each
I think relentless would better fit a marine though especially a devastator


And I wasn't restricting it to just the ap3 ammo I meant you could buy any type of sternguard ammo for X amount per guy. I think this would make tactical marines damage out put increase a lot and also help sternguard live longer than one turn.

I could go on but it would require a whole differnt threat that would turn into arguments with xenos players claiming "we've got it good"

 Anpu42 wrote:

make the Bolter 2 shots

either that or AP4

What would be the point of heavy bolters than, when you could have more shots at AP4.

brother marcus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

brother marcus wrote:
Making them cheaper might help but it would have to be by at least 10points

Well we keep getting price decreases…I am not sure that is the solution.

But that's not the biggest problem they have. Marines need that cc weapon to be included in their war gear and I would even accept an increase in points for this. But their low damage output is the main problem IMO

We just need the Combat Knife, I don’t think we need a price increase for that.

make the Bolter 2 shots

either that or AP4

Give devs relentless

That seems to be everyone’s answer, but, giving the Sergeant an Asuspecs would help a lot.

All cc units need increase in attacks

Chain Swords AP5 would make a big difference or the ability to trade in their chain sword for a second Pistol.

Terminators need serious help in this edition

A price decrease, they should never be more than twice a Tactical Marine.

And with psychic powers having a bigger emphasis in 6th why did they change the psychic hood ??

[Shrugs]

How would people feel if you could buy one type of sternguard ammo I.e. ap3 3pts per model??

We do not need more AP3 out there, we need less [and I am not talking about just marines.

I used to love running terminators now its not even funny to watch them fold :(

Marines desperately need the extra cc attacks the only good cc we have any more is honour guard
Tacticals should have the combat knife
Assault and vanguard 3 attacks each
I think relentless would better fit a marine though especially a devastator


And I wasn't restricting it to just the ap3 ammo I meant you could buy any type of sternguard ammo for X amount per guy. I think this would make tactical marines damage out put increase a lot and also help sternguard live longer than one turn.

I could go on but it would require a whole differnt threat that would turn into arguments with xenos players claiming "we've got it good"

Don't let them get you down. The mathematics doesn't lie.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

make the Bolter 2 shots

either that or AP4

What would be the point of heavy bolters than, when you could have more shots at AP4.

That's implying that Heavy Bolters currently have a point for Marines though. They don't.

Ap 4 although fluff fitting Would be a little op

Bolters should be 2 shots 3 rapid fire I've actually play tested this Already and it works great. It allows marines to hold their own in fire fights again

Storm bolters 3 shots and heavy bolters 4. This would make heavy bolters slightly better

@martel732

Don't worry dude dosnt get me down I still love playing with marines especially when I win and my opponent goes "that's not supposed to happen" or " I got lucky" but I will bide my time till marines are good again

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

brother marcus wrote:
Exactly my point still got swamped with basically "shut up enjoy what you've got" and pulling the ATSKNF card

I think ATSKNF is great, but it does not make up for all of the AP3 Weapons out there.

It's not AP 3, it's sheer volume of wounds. At least against AP 3 you can get cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 smithy12262 wrote:
What's with all the Tactical Marine hate?

I think they're pretty effective units for what they do. 3+, scoring units with equipment flex?

Packed in drop pods, I think they're one of the best objective takers in the game.

No, they're not, because I don't need any gear to be an "objective taker". If you read my earlier posts, I explained how tacticals are a liability because they don't contribute meaningful offense to your list unlike dire avengers or Kroot or fire warriors.

BTW, drop pod is an extremely hazardous thing for a tac squad. You have to commit them very early in the game and after they drop, they are foot slogging. They can't repel an assault-based attack, and *more importantly*, don't have the firepower to cripple most assault-based squads.

I did read them, I just don't agree

They can contribute meaningfully if you equip them accordingly. Yes, your tactical marines may come in early, but if you have enough pods, you can leave them in reserve. They're a good unit used in support, as long as you play them correctly.

They may not "auto-win" but as a rounded unit, can do most things in a pinch.

What do you legally equip them with to make them useful? I'm just curious. You say you don't agree, so explain. You just can't say "I don't agree" and not give specific reasons.

Reserves come in on a 3+. So, your tac marines will likely be down by turn 3 and on foot. That's pretty easy for most lists to deal with.

My contention is that they can't do ANYTHING in a pinch or not in a pinch. Show me why that is not true. Just don't say it's not true. Myself and others have pointed out very SPECIFIC problems. What is your SPECIFIC reason for disagreeing?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
That's a rather big assumption. If you're at 18" (so max range for Dire Avengers) you need to roll a 1 to get out of Rapid Fire range, so yeah... Number four also assume that the Marines don't miss, so that's a wash. Further, Dire Avengers are a point cheaper than the Marines as well.

And you're stuck on the Dire Avengers; you're the one who brought them up.

It's an assumption you have to make when making a mathematical model. How did they arrive in shooting range? Did they have to move around a corner? Did they advance across a field? Is there terrain in the way for normal advances? How far did the Battle Focus allow them to run? Did they arrive by transport and were dropped at the optimal range and if so how many points are we assigning the Space Marines? Regarding number 4: no, that's a typo. Meant to mean "assuming Dire Avengers didn't miss their pseudo-rending" and is a meta-comment regarding mathematical chance. I assure you that in no case I assumed either force had 100% accuracy. Both had 66% accuracy at all times.

Dire Avengers is the only place I can see where Bladestorm actually is a problem. The other two cases you either need to stop get out-played by Guardians and actually think about shooting them (they still die to a stiff breeze) or you don't get enough shots for the Bladestorm effect to actually be a constant factor enough to complain about. Possible exception is maxed units of War Walkers and Vypers. By the way, each ShuriShuri Vyper/Walker deals 3.33 wounds with a mathematical average of about 50% to have one of those wounds to be rending and it takes 36 bolter shots to destroy one Vyper/Walker. Of these two, the Walker is the mathematically more dangerous one since it can Battle Focus.

Martel732 wrote:
Okay. I understand your point. Now understand mine. Other books have troops that do the same job for less points, AND can contribute meaningfully in the offensive portion of the game. I don't understand why you are content to throw away points on units that don't contribute in a list with model count issues.

This is a fair point. I do it because I feel I can make them count. I feel they are meaningful as they are designed right now, but that doesn't necessarily make me want to, or be able to, spam them - which I shouldn't feel about any unit, that's bad game design!

Slightly off topic, how do you feel about Scouts?

Don't get me wrong I feel like I've got objective sitters and cheerleaders in both 40k forces I play whenever I go into the troop section, but Elites and Heavy Support should do a better job (which is also a problem with Space Marines - you've got your buffed Tacticals, they're called Sternguard or Devastator or similar)

Scouts are interesting. They can obtain 2+ cover saves without a ton of effort. Unfortunately, they start looking really bad compared to sniper Kroot when the ignores cover starts flying around. Note that imperial armies can hose scouts badly with the good ol heavy flamer.

I'd like scouts a lot better if WS didn't ignore cover with the Serpent Shield and Tau didn't have it seemingly at will.

HTH scouts on storms actually have some utility. They are the Emperor's own Orks. I have used IH assault scouts in speeders with heavy flamers and totally pushed around Orks and DE and such. But Tau and Eldar don't give a feth.

If you had to give tac marines something, give them Split Fire, it'd make them more tactical.

 Truth118 wrote:
If you had to give tac marines something, give them Split Fire, it'd make them more tactical.

I gotta be honest. Given the constraints of the game, I have no idea how to make them better other than price. That way, you could add in more units that actually do something. Exercise: pay for some tactical squads but don't actually field them and see how different your army PLAYS, not SCORES. It's pretty shocking how much you don't miss them. Ever. Because they don't do anything. They are like the helpless fools in escort missions in MMORPGs.

 Truth118 wrote:
If you had to give tac marines something, give them Split Fire, it'd make them more tactical.

So much this. In the wider context of the army it allows tac squads to pick up the slack if your anti infantry or anti tank elements whiffed, but without wasting bolter shots against wraithlords or lascannon shots against guardians.

Nid players like myself might be a bit miffed though, as our T6 ends up being worthless due to the redirection of bolter fire towards squishier targets, but thems the breaks.

Tacs have split fire, they just call it combat squads...

 Anpu42 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
So the main problem lies within durability+firepower+cost. Marine's durability was good back in the 5 ed, firepower was meh but oki and point cost was a bit high like 1 point more than it should have been. So what changes now. They get significant point decrease and have all the things like they used to have...but now this rate of firepower is not nearly enough and they have real problems with durability. It's not the marines but xenos that got overbuffed.

So you want to make them more durable? Look at plague marines. Are csm all totally happy with them? t5 fnp is awesome. And they pay for it appropriately pointwise. And when you pay 300 pts for 10 definitely tough guyz they apear to be a pointsink cause they lack punch. At range those 7 bolters, 2 plazmas/meltas and combi-something on serg are not nearly worth 300 pts. So what's left to a really tough guy that has bad firepower? Right - go chop things in mellee. So by increasing toughness you shift tacticals to a heavilly assault-oriented choice.
Don't get me wrong. Plague marines are amazing but i'd never take them en masse cause 1 unit is great and rather reliable. When you mass them - you loose so much firepower - you can no longer do anything.

So you want marines to be shootier! Imagine they all got analogues of pulse rifles but with same durability they got now. U pay points apropriately for it once again. And here you go - stuck with a gunline army that sits behind an adl and shoots the hell out of opponent. So you get a slightly more durable tau gunline for more pointscost that's even more afraid of helldrakes and ap3 barrage.

The way to make them shine is either to nerf others or buff them a bit with a lil point increase. Why not give them all fnp? It's rather fluffy. Why not buff bolter a bit to be something like rapid fire 2/3 and stormbolters rapid fire 3/4. Give them 2 base attacke. And make them cost around 20 pts for all that goodness. I think that will make them good without going over-the top.

You can give then FNP or more accuracy though Chapter Tactics.

But it costs too much. Just what if all the tacticals wold be like slightly cheaper comsquads with better bolters? And Increase pointcost of bikes. They're just too cheap for the benefits they provide!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And price decrease...u kidding? They're allready very cheap. Ig veterans cost 6 and get ws3, t3, ini3, ld7, 5+ save and s3 ap- guns. If you give them carapace - they cost around 9 per model for a 4+ save. And you get totally better stats for 14 pts. Yep, they die as easilly to bale flamers and ap3 stuff but when they get shot at by something else - marines are like 5 times more durable. Also they can't even be compared in mellee. U're asking too much if you want a further point decrease. U've allready got atsknf and chapter tactix for 1 pts compared to chaos marines.
While i agree that tacticals are not great atm, i think they should be improved with a point increase and not remain the same with a point decrease. Just think logically.
A bit better mellee, better durability - but not over-the-top, and some shooting boost. As i've allready said, i find that their statline is fine, maybe cept for attack, but it's easier to give ccw for like 5 pts per 10 man-squad.
They lack survivability vs ignore-armor and rate of fire for their pointcost. Just a 5+ fnp will help without giving too much and still keeping them the same level as they are now vs s8+.
They lack ranged firepower - i think that increasing bolter's stats could be a good move. As said before, rapid fire 2/3 makes bolters effective now and not too overwhelming. No ignore-cover or rending or pinning - just plain bolter + 1 shot.

So let's count - base marine 14 pts atm. +2 pts for better bolter, +4 pts for fnp, +0.5 pts for extra ccw and you got a 20-21 pts cost marine that's totally playable and useful in offence, defence and board controle.
And make a price increase on bikes. They're supposed to be 1/10 of an army and not 9/10. Excluding white scars.

I am actually liking my Tacs bare bones...

150 points for a 10 man squad and a combi weapon, small games take 5 for 80 points. Hard to beat that. I'm used to the idea of my troops floundering around soaking up shots and not doing much in the way of killing thanks to my adventures with CSM, so keeping them cheap makes sense.

And besides, they're just troops. Leave the real killing to the Elites and Heavies.

 koooaei wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
So the main problem lies within durability+firepower+cost. Marine's durability was good back in the 5 ed, firepower was meh but oki and point cost was a bit high like 1 point more than it should have been. So what changes now. They get significant point decrease and have all the things like they used to have...but now this rate of firepower is not nearly enough and they have real problems with durability. It's not the marines but xenos that got overbuffed.

So you want to make them more durable? Look at plague marines. Are csm all totally happy with them? t5 fnp is awesome. And they pay for it appropriately pointwise. And when you pay 300 pts for 10 definitely tough guyz they apear to be a pointsink cause they lack punch. At range those 7 bolters, 2 plazmas/meltas and combi-something on serg are not nearly worth 300 pts. So what's left to a really tough guy that has bad firepower? Right - go chop things in mellee. So by increasing toughness you shift tacticals to a heavilly assault-oriented choice.
Don't get me wrong. Plague marines are amazing but i'd never take them en masse cause 1 unit is great and rather reliable. When you mass them - you loose so much firepower - you can no longer do anything.

So you want marines to be shootier! Imagine they all got analogues of pulse rifles but with same durability they got now. U pay points apropriately for it once again. And here you go - stuck with a gunline army that sits behind an adl and shoots the hell out of opponent. So you get a slightly more durable tau gunline for more pointscost that's even more afraid of helldrakes and ap3 barrage.

The way to make them shine is either to nerf others or buff them a bit with a lil point increase. Why not give them all fnp? It's rather fluffy. Why not buff bolter a bit to be something like rapid fire 2/3 and stormbolters rapid fire 3/4. Give them 2 base attacke. And make them cost around 20 pts for all that goodness. I think that will make them good without going over-the top.

You can give then FNP or more accuracy though Chapter Tactics.

But it costs too much. Just what if all the tacticals wold be like slightly cheaper comsquads with better bolters? And Increase pointcost of bikes. They're just too cheap for the benefits they provide!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And price decrease...u kidding? They're allready very cheap. Ig veterans cost 6 and get ws3, t3, ini3, ld7, 5+ save and s3 ap- guns. If you give them carapace - they cost around 9 per model for a 4+ save. And you get totally better stats for 14 pts. Yep, they die as easilly to bale flamers and ap3 stuff but when they get shot at by something else - marines are like 5 times more durable. Also they can't even be compared in mellee. U're asking too much if you want a further point decrease. U've allready got atsknf and chapter tactix for 1 pts compared to chaos marines.
While i agree that tacticals are not great atm, i think they should be improved with a point increase and not remain the same with a point decrease. Just think logically.
A bit better mellee, better durability - but not over-the-top, and some shooting boost. As i've allready said, i find that their statline is fine, maybe cept for attack, but it's easier to give ccw for like 5 pts per 10 man-squad.
They lack survivability vs ignore-armor and rate of fire for their pointcost. Just a 5+ fnp will help without giving too much and still keeping them the same level as they are now vs s8+.
They lack ranged firepower - i think that increasing bolter's stats could be a good move. As said before, rapid fire 2/3 makes bolters effective now and not too overwhelming. No ignore-cover or rending or pinning - just plain bolter + 1 shot.

So let's count - base marine 14 pts atm. +2 pts for better bolter, +4 pts for fnp, +0.5 pts for extra ccw and you got a 20-21 pts cost marine that's totally playable and useful in offence, defence and board controle.
And make a price increase on bikes. They're supposed to be 1/10 of an army and not 9/10. Excluding white scars.

Totes agree with the Bolter and ccw but the FNP would be pushing the boat out way too far. It would make marines like plague marines super unkillable and it would just get annoying.

All they need is THAT boltgun and a cc weapon included in there stats

Split fire would be lovely but would make them too effective ( wouldn't they be able to then pop transports with a melta/lascannon and the Bolter who ever was in there ?? )

For every 5 marines equip a special weapon. So a 10 man squad would have two specials and one heavy?

Normal costs apply.

brother marcus wrote:


Totes agree with the Bolter and ccw but the FNP would be pushing the boat out way too far. It would make marines like plague marines super unkillable and it would just get annoying.

All they need is THAT boltgun and a cc weapon included in there stats

Split fire would be lovely but would make them too effective ( wouldn't they be able to then pop transports with a melta/lascannon and the Bolter who ever was in there ?? )

I've played vs a fw chapter with mass fnp (sorry, don't remember the name of a chapter - scorpions or something...they have Loth named character) with my orkses. And their survivability was just fine. I'd not say that 5+ fnp for additional points is over-the top. But the combination of t5 + fnp is tough. That's why i'm proposing on nerfing bikes a bit with some even stronger point-increase if we assume marines get fnp for like 4 pts per model.

If they just get a better weapon - they'll be more of a glass cannon which they're not supposed to be. While they need some durability increase, it's hard to say what's best. I just proposed fnp cause a 1/3 chance to prolong a living of a heavilly enchanced uman with a dozen of hearts, lungs and such stuff is not only fluffy but will be good and not shift the meta too hard. Cause they still die to rate of fire, ap3 and stuff. Just a bit more durable.

Iirc you can't shoot the disembarked models with split fire. Cause it happens simultaniously.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll test 21 pts space marines with:
+ccw
+bolter = rapid fire 2/3
+fnp 5+

And will write the results in here.

Okay then I will also test this tonight ( my neighbour plays 40k too and we play when the wife goes work haha )