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Martel732 wrote:
Yes, Grey Hunters are ironically not really any better against Tau/Eldar/Daemons even they are super good against lists they give them a chance to live and play.
Which is another reason I don't blame Tau/Eldar/Daemon players, because Grey Hunters are straight up unfair if you don't shoot them to death. I used to hate Grey Hunters more than anything until we got Helldrake/Tau/Eldar/Daemons on the scene.
They are the original reason I started shooting with BA in 5th.

How are they unfair, because we have +1 Attack and can take a second Plasma Gun?
Both those are worth about the same as some of the Chapter Tactics Bonuses.
The only real advantage Grey Hunters have is that you can’t single out the Power Weapon in a Challenge.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Both those are worth about the same as some of the Chapter Tactics Bonuses.

Yeah no. Double specials is vastly superior to any of the Chapter Tactics, barring possibly White Scars. Counter-attack and the extra CCW means you can actually use your bolters in Rapid Fire and still fight back. Think about it, if a Grey Hunter squad is charged by anything, it'll have 300% (!!) the damage output of a Tactical Squad. Sure, the same things that kill Tacticals kill Grey Hunters, but the Grey Hunters deal more damage to it while dying.

If we then further consider the impact of having the option of taking Sergeants with Terminator Armour the survivability increases dramatically., especially in CC with a Wolf Banner.

So yeah, the only real advantage the Grey Hunters have is that they do more damage, live longer, and have access to better support options. Sounds fair for 1PPM.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Both those are worth about the same as some of the Chapter Tactics Bonuses.

Yeah no. Double specials is vastly superior to any of the Chapter Tactics, barring possibly White Scars. Counter-attack and the extra CCW means you can actually use your bolters in Rapid Fire and still fight back. Think about it, if a Grey Hunter squad is charged by anything, it'll have 300% (!!) the damage output of a Tactical Squad. Sure, the same things that kill Tacticals kill Grey Hunters, but the Grey Hunters deal more damage to it while dying.

If we then further consider the impact of having the option of taking Sergeants with Terminator Armour the survivability increases dramatically., especially in CC with a Wolf Banner.

So yeah, the only real advantage the Grey Hunters have is that they do more damage, live longer, and have access to better support options. Sounds fair for 1PPM.

Yes, but if you stay 25" away They can do nothing so I am forced to go after my opponent if they decide to Gunline like Tau. They are better in a strait out shootout, but are not as flexable and I loose my Second Special weapon if I want to go Mechanised with LD9

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Both those are worth about the same as some of the Chapter Tactics Bonuses.

Yeah no. Double specials is vastly superior to any of the Chapter Tactics, barring possibly White Scars. Counter-attack and the extra CCW means you can actually use your bolters in Rapid Fire and still fight back. Think about it, if a Grey Hunter squad is charged by anything, it'll have 300% (!!) the damage output of a Tactical Squad. Sure, the same things that kill Tacticals kill Grey Hunters, but the Grey Hunters deal more damage to it while dying.

If we then further consider the impact of having the option of taking Sergeants with Terminator Armour the survivability increases dramatically., especially in CC with a Wolf Banner.

So yeah, the only real advantage the Grey Hunters have is that they do more damage, live longer, and have access to better support options. Sounds fair for 1PPM.

Yes, but if you stay 25" away They can do nothing so I am forced to go after my opponent if they decide to Gunline like Tau. They are better in a strait out shootout, but are not as flexable and I loose my Second Special weapon if I want to go Mechanised with LD9

The flexibility means squat. Having 5 Marines sit around in the Deployment zone to fire a lascannon is a waste of 90+ points for one S9 AP2 shot a turn. Yes, you're better in a shootout, which is the problem with Tacticals: they're a unit designed for shootouts at short ranges that are awful at it.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Both those are worth about the same as some of the Chapter Tactics Bonuses.

Yeah no. Double specials is vastly superior to any of the Chapter Tactics, barring possibly White Scars. Counter-attack and the extra CCW means you can actually use your bolters in Rapid Fire and still fight back. Think about it, if a Grey Hunter squad is charged by anything, it'll have 300% (!!) the damage output of a Tactical Squad. Sure, the same things that kill Tacticals kill Grey Hunters, but the Grey Hunters deal more damage to it while dying.

If we then further consider the impact of having the option of taking Sergeants with Terminator Armour the survivability increases dramatically., especially in CC with a Wolf Banner.

So yeah, the only real advantage the Grey Hunters have is that they do more damage, live longer, and have access to better support options. Sounds fair for 1PPM.

Yes, but if you stay 25" away They can do nothing so I am forced to go after my opponent if they decide to Gunline like Tau. They are better in a strait out shootout, but are not as flexable and I loose my Second Special weapon if I want to go Mechanised with LD9

The flexibility means squat. Having 5 Marines sit around in the Deployment zone to fire a lascannon is a waste of 90+ points for one S9 AP2 shot a turn. Yes, you're better in a shootout, which is the problem with Tacticals: they're a unit designed for shootouts at short ranges that are awful at it.

Well I don't fight the same as you do, so I cant say much about that.

Martel732 wrote:

Why should they have to self-nerf? Why would they not field the best army they can and expect me to do the same? The whole point of list building is to try to get another tick in the win column so why not take a sure thing?

Evidently, you have bought into the "forge the narrative" crap. I have never seen this done, not in nearly 20 years of playing this. I have never seen a cooperative game, ever. I've mostly seen guys trying (and usually failing) to table each other. I've gotten more cooperation from *actual* "competitive" games. GW's rules are always trying to be bent in favor of my opposition as well. I'm always part general, part barrister. Welcome to playing against war gamers.

These comments left me speechless, they really did, it's been incredibly hard to find them to reply. If you already know what the result is before the game even starts why play the game? I literally can't understand why you would bother?

You are saying that in 20 years of playing no-one *ever* talked to their opponent beforehand and said "you know what, my list is way too strong compared to yours, let me just take out a few of the top tier elements and replace them and make it a game" (or the equivalent) they always just steamrolled the other guy and called it a day? Never? That is so alien to me.

It's not buying into forging the narrative (which is the battlecry of people who want to mock 6th ed), you aren't the only one with 20+ years of play under your belt. I just cannot comprehend why you wouldn't work with your opponent to roughly even the playing field before you started then let play and the dice decide the winner.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
If you're playing against someone you don't know it's a bit hard to avoid Riptides and the like; sure, you can choose not to play, but that means that you, well... don't get to play. Frankly, I'm still confused that anyone could argue that Tactical Marines are fine by excluding some of the units that cause the problem. It's like arguing that Terminators are OP because one dude passed 66 armour saves.

That's why I said find a like minded group, then no-one has to self nerf if they don't want, the problem is you want to play a game where the designers don't want to play competitively, competitively with an army that fate has decreed doesn't quite match up. The designers have made it clear they could give two jots about that kind of play so expecting it to change to suit it is the definition of madness.

The analogy is off though, if 99% of people played WS/Riptide spam it would hold water, I even the playing field suggesting (and I personally think it's a lot lower given they are only 2 factions in one playstyle) 50% of people did. That means the units you keep calling out as the OP standard everything needs to be at are present in less than half the games played and for the rest of games tac marines are fine.

Martel732 wrote:
(WD lists) They would be obliterated where I play.

No doubt, but it sounds like they have a lot more fun playing the game than you do, and really that's all that matters. They write the rules around how they play, your group plays very differently. I just always get the impression from your posts you don't enjoy the game, I'd say find a new group but if BA were ever buffed to Eldar levels you'd be the same guy you have issue with playing Eldar/Tau now, you'd be happy I guess but what if they aren't? Personally I think if the game is causing this much annoyance you should simply move on, leave it behind, 40k has never been, nor I doubt will it ever be the game you want it to be.
(Please do not take offense at that, it's my genuine observation not a STFU or GTFO type comment)

I... what? Yes, I understand that Tactical Marines work if you have a group that collectively agrees not to take things that kill them, but that means that Tau players, for example, are restricted in their choice of what units to field, essentially moving the problem to them instead. Sure, your problem is solved, but now someone else is restricted. In an ideal world, anyone ought to be able to take any unit and not have it suck at its intended role, but that's not the case with Tactical Marines.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I... what? Yes, I understand that Tactical Marines work if you have a group that collectively agrees not to take things that kill them, but that means that Tau players, for example, are restricted in their choice of what units to field, essentially moving the problem to them instead. Sure, your problem is solved, but now someone else is restricted. In an ideal world, anyone ought to be able to take any unit and not have it suck at its intended role, but that's not the case with Tactical Marines.

So what is your salution?

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I... what? Yes, I understand that Tactical Marines work if you have a group that collectively agrees not to take things that kill them, but that means that Tau players, for example, are restricted in their choice of what units to field, essentially moving the problem to them instead. Sure, your problem is solved, but now someone else is restricted. In an ideal world, anyone ought to be able to take any unit and not have it suck at its intended role, but that's not the case with Tactical Marines.

So what is your salution?

Ideally, remove the Tactical Squad entry and replace it with Grey Hunters.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I... what? Yes, I understand that Tactical Marines work if you have a group that collectively agrees not to take things that kill them, but that means that Tau players, for example, are restricted in their choice of what units to field, essentially moving the problem to them instead. Sure, your problem is solved, but now someone else is restricted. In an ideal world, anyone ought to be able to take any unit and not have it suck at its intended role, but that's not the case with Tactical Marines.

So what is your salution?

Ideally, remove the Tactical Squad entry and replace it with Grey Hunters.

I don't think that would help alot with some of the core issues or are Grey Hunters that much better that if nullifies all of the other paroblems.

Here is my true responce, If you want Grey Hunters, Play Space Wolves.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I... what? Yes, I understand that Tactical Marines work if you have a group that collectively agrees not to take things that kill them, but that means that Tau players, for example, are restricted in their choice of what units to field, essentially moving the problem to them instead. Sure, your problem is solved, but now someone else is restricted. In an ideal world, anyone ought to be able to take any unit and not have it suck at its intended role, but that's not the case with Tactical Marines.

So what is your salution?

Ideally, remove the Tactical Squad entry and replace it with Grey Hunters.

I don't think that would help alot with some of the core issues or are Grey Hunters that much better that if nullifies all of the other paroblems.

Here is my true responce, If you want Grey Hunters, Play Space Wolves.

They have the same role, Grey Hunters are better. They die just as easily but can actually fight. Your response more or less equates to "yes, these are useful, but you can't have them", which doesn't solve anything.

Grey Hunters are what tactical marines should be in the first place. But at the end of the day, they die to Eldar/Tau/Daemons just the same. Their utter superiority over tactical marines is really on display in meq on meq action and now Tyranids. Go ahead, gaunts, charge those grey hunters and get CRUSHED. The same gaunts charge tac marines and wipe them up. 200% extra damage when assaulted makes the rapid fire weapons they possess no longer a death sentence at close ranges.

"You are saying that in 20 years of playing no-one *ever* talked to their opponent beforehand and said "you know what, my list is way too strong compared to yours, let me just take out a few of the top tier elements and replace them and make it a game" (or the equivalent) they always just steamrolled the other guy and called it a day? Never? That is so alien to me. "

Nope, I guess I've played at competitive FLGSs. It's not very satisfying not being able to take on a list's best build. It's not a victory if your opponent has to hold back. Also, we usually bring lists ahead of time with no prior knowledge of our opponent. There is no time or opportunity to work something like that out. It's alien to me to even consider pulling punches. I always put the most vicious list I think of together because I expect my opponent will do the same.

"you know what, my list is way too strong compared to yours"

That was the intent of the list building. To punish opponent for bad list decisions. But GW cheapens those decisions by bad balance.

" I just always get the impression from your posts you don't enjoy the game, I'd say find a new group but if BA were ever buffed to Eldar levels you'd be the same guy you have issue with playing Eldar/Tau now, you'd be happy I guess but what if they aren't? Personally I think if the game is causing this much annoyance you should simply move on, leave it behind, 40k has never been, nor I doubt will it ever be the game you want it to be. "

If BA were somehow equal to Tau/Eldar, then I could have an actual game against them. But, yes, the other lists would be bad match ups. It's not about just winning. It's about winning because I make correct decisions and my opponent does not. The crazy codex balance makes my correct decisions less valuable and their incorrect decisions less damaging. That's what's annoying. Not just the losing.

I do find myself playing 6th ed less and less. I've maybe 3 games in the last month of 40K vs hundreds of Starcraft matches.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
They have the same role, Grey Hunters are better. They die just as easily but can actually fight. Your response more or less equates to "yes, these are useful, but you can't have them", which doesn't solve anything.

Yes when it come to the FOC they fulfill the same roll, Taking up 2 Troop Choices, but they do not on the battlefield.

Tactical Squads are the core of the Space Marine army and thus are supposed to fulfill their roll of a Jack of Trades Role. They are supposed to fill all roles from Basic Battle to Anti-Swarm to Anti-Armor and if they need to take the fight to the enemy.
>I admit they are not as good as they should be. Maybe this has changed, but this is what they are supposed to be.
>In that role I think they should be able to take 2 Special Weapon or Two Heavy Weapons.

Grey Hunters are the Core of the Space Wolf Battle Doctrines. Witch is to be aggressive and take the fight to the enemy. A Heavy Weapon would slow them down so they take two special weapons and a Chain Sword because they know they are going to get close and want to.

"Grey Hunters are the Core of the Space Wolf Battle Doctrines. Witch is to be aggressive and take the fight to the enemy."

But they don't. They stand and shoot and dare chumps to assault them and make them stop.

A single heavy weapon does not really help tactical squads at all. All it does it encourage people to stand still when they might should be moving. Tactical marines at the very least should get double special weapons, no heavy and a CC weapon. I'll give Space Cheese (Wolves) their counter attack, although I think Sternguard should get counterattack as well to help with their outrageous price.

Martel732 wrote:
"Grey Hunters are the Core of the Space Wolf Battle Doctrines. Witch is to be aggressive and take the fight to the enemy."

But they don't. They stand and shoot and dare chumps to assault them and make them stop.

A single heavy weapon does not really help tactical squads at all. All it does it encourage people to stand still when they might should be moving. Tactical marines at the very least should get double special weapons, no heavy and a CC weapon. I'll give Space Cheese (Wolves) their counter attack, although I think Sternguard should get counterattack as well to help with their outrageous price.

But then they would not be Tactical Marines, they would be come funny colored Space Wolves.
Giving Tactical Squads double Heavy Weapons would make a difrence, especialt to those whom Combat Squad.
Giving them Back thier Combat Blades would be nice and not be to "Wolfy" as they had them in previos editions.

Give them fleet.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Grey Hunters are the Core of the Space Wolf Battle Doctrines. Witch is to be aggressive and take the fight to the enemy."

But they don't. They stand and shoot and dare chumps to assault them and make them stop.

A single heavy weapon does not really help tactical squads at all. All it does it encourage people to stand still when they might should be moving. Tactical marines at the very least should get double special weapons, no heavy and a CC weapon. I'll give Space Cheese (Wolves) their counter attack, although I think Sternguard should get counterattack as well to help with their outrageous price.

But then they would not be Tactical Marines, they would be come funny colored Space Wolves.
Giving Tactical Squads double Heavy Weapons would make a difrence, especialt to those whom Combat Squad.
Giving them Back thier Combat Blades would be nice and not be to "Wolfy" as they had them in previos editions.

There never should have been such a gulf between tacs and Space Wolves to begin with. Double heavy still wouldn't mean anything, as Imperial heavy weapons are overcosted. This just makes the problem worse. I care about efficacy, not what's "Wolfy". The Space Wolves have had it too good for too long anyway. The only silver lining is that at least now they lose to the new power codices just like everyone else.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Grey Hunters are the Core of the Space Wolf Battle Doctrines. Witch is to be aggressive and take the fight to the enemy."

But they don't. They stand and shoot and dare chumps to assault them and make them stop.

A single heavy weapon does not really help tactical squads at all. All it does it encourage people to stand still when they might should be moving. Tactical marines at the very least should get double special weapons, no heavy and a CC weapon. I'll give Space Cheese (Wolves) their counter attack, although I think Sternguard should get counterattack as well to help with their outrageous price.

But then they would not be Tactical Marines, they would be come funny colored Space Wolves.
Giving Tactical Squads double Heavy Weapons would make a difrence, especialt to those whom Combat Squad.
Giving them Back thier Combat Blades would be nice and not be to "Wolfy" as they had them in previos editions.

There never should have been such a gulf between tacs and Space Wolves to begin with. Double heavy still wouldn't mean anything, as Imperial heavy weapons are overcosted. This just makes the problem worse. I care about efficacy, not what's "Wolfy". The Space Wolves have had it too good for too long anyway. The only silver lining is that at least now they lose to the new power codices just like everyone else.

So we have established That you want Grey Hunters.
What else would you sugest to salve the problem?

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"Grey Hunters are the Core of the Space Wolf Battle Doctrines. Witch is to be aggressive and take the fight to the enemy."

But they don't. They stand and shoot and dare chumps to assault them and make them stop.

A single heavy weapon does not really help tactical squads at all. All it does it encourage people to stand still when they might should be moving. Tactical marines at the very least should get double special weapons, no heavy and a CC weapon. I'll give Space Cheese (Wolves) their counter attack, although I think Sternguard should get counterattack as well to help with their outrageous price.

But then they would not be Tactical Marines, they would be come funny colored Space Wolves.
Giving Tactical Squads double Heavy Weapons would make a difrence, especialt to those whom Combat Squad.
Giving them Back thier Combat Blades would be nice and not be to "Wolfy" as they had them in previos editions.

There never should have been such a gulf between tacs and Space Wolves to begin with. Double heavy still wouldn't mean anything, as Imperial heavy weapons are overcosted. This just makes the problem worse. I care about efficacy, not what's "Wolfy". The Space Wolves have had it too good for too long anyway. The only silver lining is that at least now they lose to the new power codices just like everyone else.

So we have established That you want Grey Hunters.
What else would you sugest to salve the problem?

Well, Grey Hunters largely solve problems where 12" firing is feasible and the boltgun can do damage and you can expect a counter assasult. None of this is directly relevant and against Tau/Eldar and only helps a little vs Daemons.

I'm not really sure about the answer to that, to be honest. I keep coming back to "not having meqs as troops". What else do you recommend when I'm losing my ass from 30" most games? The double heavy thing is cute, but the Xenos are going to laugh it off. The tactical squad is just the poster boy for the issue. Marines are outclassed in firepower in a shooting edition.

Martel732 wrote:


I'm not really sure about the answer to that, to be honest. I keep coming back to "not having meqs as troops". What else do you recommend when I'm losing my ass from 30" most games? The double heavy thing is cute, but the Xenos are going to laugh it off. The tactical squad is just the poster boy for the issue. Marines are outclassed in firepower in a shooting edition.

Then what do you put there?

The real problem is not the MEQs, it is the Gaming Environment. In order to quiet down the “Marines Get Everything crowd” GW overcompensated. MEQs have been fodder since the Necron Codex Came out.

You want a simple fix, Give Marine Armor a 5++ or 6++ or FNP. That is what it will probably take to give them some survivability.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


I'm not really sure about the answer to that, to be honest. I keep coming back to "not having meqs as troops". What else do you recommend when I'm losing my ass from 30" most games? The double heavy thing is cute, but the Xenos are going to laugh it off. The tactical squad is just the poster boy for the issue. Marines are outclassed in firepower in a shooting edition.

Then what do you put there?

The real problem is not the MEQs, it is the Gaming Environment. In order to quiet down the “Marines Get Everything crowd” GW overcompensated. MEQs have been fodder since the Necron Codex Came out.

You want a simple fix, Give Marine Armor a 5++ or 6++ or FNP. That is what it will probably take to give them some survivability.

BA have that, but they pay at least 50 pts for an IC that can be barrage sniped out to get it. That's not a bad idea, but doesn't change the problem of shooting back spit balls and having Sniper Kroot be a more potent troops choice.

The other way to look at it is that the gaming environment changed, but meq didn't That DOES make meq the problem unfortunately.

Martel732 wrote:
BA have that, but they pay at least 50 pts for an IC that can be barrage sniped out to get it. That's not a bad idea, but doesn't change the problem of shooting back spit balls and having Sniper Kroot be a more potent troops choice.
The other way to look at it is that the gaming environment changed, but meq didn't That DOES make meq the problem unfortunately.

The Bolt Gun does it’s job, you just need a lot of them, like any Army. A single Tactical has 10 Guys. Think about a 20 or 30 model Tactical Squad.
Bolt Guns are not Spit-Wads, They are S4, that means they wound most armies on a 3+ and AP5 ignores the armor on a lot of armies. The only “Trooper Gun” out there better is the Pulse Rifle.
Fix the Bolt Gun…Give it Rending or AP4 and then it becomes Fluffy.
That is how I would fix the “Bolt Gun Problem”
What would be your salution.

As a note I still don’t agree that they “SUCK”, but I do relies they have there problems.

I'll take the dire avenger catapult over the boltgun any day. And twice on Fridays.

I'll let you in on a little news flash: S4 is the new S3 or even S2. S4 hits are beneath the real lists like Tau and Eldar and even Daemons. S5 and up is where its at.

Bolters with rending would be interesting, but I doubt they would copy the Eldar's trick so closely.

It's hard to get a lot of a gun on a 14 pt model and still have points left for other part of the army. Especially given the amount of models now that either can't be hurt by bolters or are only wounded on a "6".

You talk of wounding enemies on "3"s and the AP 5, but most good players will not just offer up their troops into optimum range. Maybe after they bombard you with a few ion accelerators, and then you have quite a few fewer marines.

Martel732 wrote:
I'll take the dire avenger catapult over the boltgun any day. And twice on Fridays.

I'll let you in on a little news flash: S4 is the new S3 or even S2. S4 hits are beneath the real lists like Tau and Eldar and even Daemons. S5 and up is where its at.

Bolters with rending would be interesting, but I doubt they would copy the Eldar's trick so closely.

It's hard to get a lot of a gun on a 14 pt model and still have points left for other part of the army. Especially given the amount of models now that either can't be hurt by bolters or are only wounded on a "6".

You talk of wounding enemies on "3"s and the AP 5, but most good players will not just offer up their troops into optimum range. Maybe after they bombard you with a few ion accelerators, and then you have quite a few fewer marines.

Again, those are Taudar things. Not Every Army has those...yet at the rate things are going.
Now I have have played a few games using the Standard of Deveistion and it does give you some good fire power.
How ever I see giving a Better Bolt Gun will not help at all. The moment the Marine shoots the improved bolter the guy is just going to go out and get another Riptide to counter them.

It's not my fault GW published the Riptide. It's not the fault of players for legally taking them. It IS the fault of GW by pricing them too low.

Taudar is going to come up a lot because those are the two most popular armies and I myself *can't avoid them*. And the players won't pull punches because GW hosed meqs this edition. They won't pull punches and they shouldn't have to.

Martel732 wrote:
It's not my fault GW published the Riptide. It's not the fault of players for legally taking them. It IS the fault of GW by pricing them too low.

Taudar is going to come up a lot because those are the two most popular armies and I myself *can't avoid them*. And the players won't pull punches because GW hosed meqs this edition. They won't pull punches and they shouldn't have to.

I have never said anything about all of that.

I am going to come back and try to bet back On Topic.

How would you fix the Bolt Gun?

Make them stormbolters with the option for psyammo to get access to STR 5. Ie, get GK troop weapons for all marines. Now tacticals can lay 4 ish wounds on an MC at 24" Now they have to be paid attention to.

Martel732 wrote:
Make them stormbolters with the option for psyammo to get access to STR 5. Ie, get GK troop weapons for all marines. Now tacticals can lay 4 ish wounds on an MC at 24" Now they have to be paid attention to.

Well I will ask these two.
We make Tactical Squads into Grey Hunters, what do we give Grey Hunters to make them not Tactical Marines?
We give Storm Bolters and Psy Ammo to Tactical Squads, What do we give Grey Knight to make them not Tactical Marines?

Those are the things that make them [GH/GK] Different than normal Marines. I would be fine with this if GH/GK were still unique

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Make them stormbolters with the option for psyammo to get access to STR 5. Ie, get GK troop weapons for all marines. Now tacticals can lay 4 ish wounds on an MC at 24" Now they have to be paid attention to.

Well I will ask these two.
We make Tactical Squads into Grey Hunters, what do we give Grey Hunters to make them not Tactical Marines?
We give Storm Bolters and Psy Ammo to Tactical Squads, What do we give Grey Knight to make them not Tactical Marines?

Those are the things that make them [GH/GK] Different than normal Marines. I would be fine with this if GH/GK were still unique

Give them more stuff. Give Grey Hunters WS 5 for starters. Make their CC weapons AP 4.

For Grey Knights, I'd have to think harder.

But basically, the "special" meqs are where the normal meqs need to be, which means they need to be more special. Because right now, I'd pretty much take a sniper Kroot over any meq troop.

I would love for Chain Swords to be AP5 or Rending.
WS5 Grey Hunters...As a Space Wolf Player this would be great, but I don't think this is the way to go.

I am not sure myself what is needed. That I will have to say is beouse I am not having these issues you keep haiving.