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 Dunklezahn wrote:
Dammit, sigh.

Martel732 wrote:

Oh, and BA ASM don't really care about plasma. Plasma doesn't double me out and marines don't have much access to ignores cover. The tactical squad doesn't have a ghost of a chance, as ASM can jump over the 12" double tap spot.

Except it's not 12", its 18", drop within 18" and they can double tap you. Stay outside of 18" and it's a long charge and the tacs can step back and keep you in single tap. Drop closer and they can hit you with a double. If you start jumping around cover you also can rarely move direct and thus slower, risk dangerous terrain checks, meaning you take more damage coming in. A priest may still give a 5+ against plasma but compared to your 3+ that's a huge drop in survivability, certainly enough to get you killed.

Unless you start right on the deployment lines opposite each other and the BA goes first those Tacs are putting 3 rounds *minimum* into you plus one overwatch then strike simultaneously, they have ASM bang to rights.

Sniper Kroot are good and can damage MC's better but can't fire and move properly nor can they scratch vehicles, Tac's with the right weapons can damage MC's, Vehicles, double out T3-4, don't have terrible morale and stay mobile.

CSM, no, no way, I'm not even arguing how much worse CSM are than tacs for 1 point, they don't get a melee weapon, they can pay for one which makes them more expensive than tacs and have none of the special rules Tacs do.

The others, point for point it's close enough I feel it's good enough, stronger in some cases weaker in others. We discussed Avengers to death, 12 Firewarriors kill like 1.3 marines at 30" and have 0 melee power and terrible morale.

Martel732 wrote:
If you think GW has it roughly right, you need your head examined. Too many useless units and then there are the chosen few god-like units.

Lets take an example, the Tau codex.

OP Units: Riptides, Buffmanders (rolled a few of the buffy SC commanders in here), Broadsides maybe, those are the guys in every list.
Terrible Units: The Ethereal SC's? Vespids maybe but i find they pack a decent punch.
Middle of the road (Balanced) units: Everything else in the book.

Looks like a good hit rate to me, mostly fringe single slot units that are terrible. The big power lists are those 3 units smashed together with the similar entries from the Eldar list and bare minimum troops.

Tacs sit in that last section in the marine dex.

You don't even play in a competitive environment. How can you have a good grasp on what is good and what is middle of the road? You are *abhorred* at the thought of someone list building to win. Marines have poor access to 2++ rerollable and ignores cover. Those two factors alone kick them down to tier 2.

I've never had an issue steamrolling tactical marines with ASM. BA ASM actually do benefit from some expensive synergy with other units in the list. They have a 78% save rate against bolters and with SoS, a 55% save rate against plasma. Getting off a single double tap is not going to save the tacticals. Stepping up to double tap guarantees me an assault and then they're done.

I've played this out against vanilla marines dozens of times. The vanilla marines can't get the job done with tac firepower. Space Wolves are different because I assault them and die. Grey Knights are different because their 12"-24" firepower is so much greater than tac marines. Shoota Boyz are different because there are so many and have more firepower than tacs.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"It is painfully obvious that you haven´t played any other army. ATSKNF (totally broken), Combat Squads (tactical heaven) and Chapter Traits (endless customization, picking up special rules for free!!) are three of the best rules in the game. Most of you are saying that they do not matter, and then say things about other armies that are just plain wrong. "

I've army swapped many times to show others what I have to deal with. They usually don't like the results. ATSKNF is actually far, far from broken. In my experiences, it is virtually useless in the 6th ed meta. My marines DIE. They don't get a chance to roll morale.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

nobody wrote:
I think the problem is that he experiences other people have are with metas so entirely different from his own that they may as well be talking about a different game system, and this would also apply to trying to get his group to nerf their lists so he can compete (which is utterly bizarre, especially if his area is a tourney meta).

I've seen him make suggestions, which you and others have pretty much said "don't need them, tac marines are fine l2play"

Personally I'm pricing the 3 riptides and 2 sky rays for a tournament list

I do not recall any one telling his group to NERF thier Armies.

What we have said is Until the Ingnore-Cover-Anti-AP3 Weapondry goes away MEQs are going to struggle. This is not Telling His Meta to change we are saying GW needs to change.

Yes those of us who has said, they don't need those fixes feel that way. If you have not noticed the past two days I have tried to make sugestions on how to make them better rather than just say Nope, Nope, Nope.

AND...How do we fix this for you?

I also gave you concrete changes, except for how to make the GK the special snowflake again if we give tacs their firepower. I really hate the GK and didn't want to think that hard.

And what are you doing about this?

I'm not moving just to get another play group. Besides, my previous group in another city was THE SAME WAY. Until I came on the boards, I had no idea other people didn't exploit the bejeesus out of GW's ineptitude.

Martel732 wrote:

 Dunklezahn wrote:
Dammit, sigh.

Martel732 wrote:

Oh, and BA ASM don't really care about plasma. Plasma doesn't double me out and marines don't have much access to ignores cover. The tactical squad doesn't have a ghost of a chance, as ASM can jump over the 12" double tap spot.

Except it's not 12", its 18", drop within 18" and they can double tap you. Stay outside of 18" and it's a long charge and the tacs can step back and keep you in single tap. Drop closer and they can hit you with a double. If you start jumping around cover you also can rarely move direct and thus slower, risk dangerous terrain checks, meaning you take more damage coming in. A priest may still give a 5+ against plasma but compared to your 3+ that's a huge drop in survivability, certainly enough to get you killed.

Unless you start right on the deployment lines opposite each other and the BA goes first those Tacs are putting 3 rounds *minimum* into you plus one overwatch then strike simultaneously, they have ASM bang to rights.

Sniper Kroot are good and can damage MC's better but can't fire and move properly nor can they scratch vehicles, Tac's with the right weapons can damage MC's, Vehicles, double out T3-4, don't have terrible morale and stay mobile.

CSM, no, no way, I'm not even arguing how much worse CSM are than tacs for 1 point, they don't get a melee weapon, they can pay for one which makes them more expensive than tacs and have none of the special rules Tacs do.

The others, point for point it's close enough I feel it's good enough, stronger in some cases weaker in others. We discussed Avengers to death, 12 Firewarriors kill like 1.3 marines at 30" and have 0 melee power and terrible morale.

Martel732 wrote:
If you think GW has it roughly right, you need your head examined. Too many useless units and then there are the chosen few god-like units.

Lets take an example, the Tau codex.

OP Units: Riptides, Buffmanders (rolled a few of the buffy SC commanders in here), Broadsides maybe, those are the guys in every list.
Terrible Units: The Ethereal SC's? Vespids maybe but i find they pack a decent punch.
Middle of the road (Balanced) units: Everything else in the book.

Looks like a good hit rate to me, mostly fringe single slot units that are terrible. The big power lists are those 3 units smashed together with the similar entries from the Eldar list and bare minimum troops.

Tacs sit in that last section in the marine dex.

You don't even play in a competitive environment. How can you have a good grasp on what is good and what is middle of the road? You are *abhorred* at the thought of someone list building to win. Marines have poor access to 2++ rerollable and ignores cover. Those two factors alone kick them down to tier 2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"It is painfully obvious that you haven´t played any other army. ATSKNF (totally broken), Combat Squads (tactical heaven) and Chapter Traits (endless customization, picking up special rules for free!!) are three of the best rules in the game. Most of you are saying that they do not matter, and then say things about other armies that are just plain wrong. "

I've army swapped many times to show others what I have to deal with. They usually don't like the results. ATSKNF is actually far, far from broken. In my experiences, it is virtually useless in the 6th ed meta. My marines DIE. They don't get a chance to roll morale.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:

nobody wrote:
I think the problem is that he experiences other people have are with metas so entirely different from his own that they may as well be talking about a different game system, and this would also apply to trying to get his group to nerf their lists so he can compete (which is utterly bizarre, especially if his area is a tourney meta).

I've seen him make suggestions, which you and others have pretty much said "don't need them, tac marines are fine l2play"

Personally I'm pricing the 3 riptides and 2 sky rays for a tournament list

I do not recall any one telling his group to NERF thier Armies.

What we have said is Until the Ingnore-Cover-Anti-AP3 Weapondry goes away MEQs are going to struggle. This is not Telling His Meta to change we are saying GW needs to change.

Yes those of us who has said, they don't need those fixes feel that way. If you have not noticed the past two days I have tried to make sugestions on how to make them better rather than just say Nope, Nope, Nope.

AND...How do we fix this for you?

I also gave you concrete changes, except for how to make the GK the special snowflake again if we give tacs their firepower. I really hate the GK and didn't want to think that hard.

And what are you doing about this?

I'm not moving just to get another play group. Besides, my previous group in another city was THE SAME WAY. Until I came on the boards, I had no idea other people didn't exploit the bejeesus out of GW's ineptitude.

So what is your salution?

Martel732 wrote:

You don't even play in a competitive environment. How can you have a good grasp on what is good and what is middle of the road? You are *abhorred* at the thought of someone list building to win. Marines have poor access to 2++ rerollable and ignores cover. Those two factors alone kick them down to tier 2.

Ergo I must not be a strong player? By playing with a weaker list I am a weaker player? If I cannot see a units strengths how could I balance my list against my opponents?

Martel732 wrote:

I've never had an issue steamrolling tactical marines with ASM. BA ASM actually do benefit from some expensive synergy with other units in the list. They have a 78% save rate against bolters and with SoS, a 55% save rate against plasma. Getting off a single double tap is not going to save the tacticals. Stepping up to double tap guarantees me an assault and then they're done.

Anecdotal, I've never had a problem beating people with tactical marines, irrelevant. Also you just added what, 200 pts of elite and HQ to your unit to make your point, on a unit that was already more expensive than the one it is compared to. Enough to pay for another whole squad and then some.

Yes I'm the one saying play weaker lists, the guy still loving 40k

Marines have poor access to 2++ rerollable and ignores cover

@Martel732


How many armies actually have easy access to 2++ rerollable? You make it sound like marines are the only ones.


Ignores cover?

Thunderfire
Whirlwind
Sternguard special ammo
Tigurius
Flamers
Heavy Flamers
Flamestorms
Legion of the Damned
Grav-guns (depends on how you interpret the rules)

Looks like plenty of ignores cover options for marines.

Is it because you want ignores cover at 2++ re roll for Tact marines? It seems more like you are having issues with the codex more than the tacts.

I agree though that Tacts tend to get ignored in favour of the other more deadly stuff. But you should be playing to that. It stands to reason that your deadly stuff should be softening up the opponent as well. If you can cause enough hurt your opponent likely won't have anything left to be able to dislodge your tact squads as easily as you say. So when they are forced into a Pyrhic victory over all of your elites and stuff, they now have to contend with displacing 30-40 marines with only a few turns left to do it.

If you don't like Tacts then get allies, min max your troops and spend more stuff on the deadlier stuff, through in an Inquisitor and fight cheese with cheese.

I'd be curious to see what kind of C:SM list you run that consitantly gets it's good units wiped out and your tacts wiped out to a man after that. I don't know what your local scene is like so I'd be curious to know.

I think though we can all agree that Marines are not top tier. But someone has to be up there I guess.

As to your suggested fix, Str 5 isn't the solution in my mind. Being able to select two special weapons is good or as I mentioned give their bolters shred when stationary.

 Dunklezahn wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

You don't even play in a competitive environment. How can you have a good grasp on what is good and what is middle of the road? You are *abhorred* at the thought of someone list building to win. Marines have poor access to 2++ rerollable and ignores cover. Those two factors alone kick them down to tier 2.

Ergo I must not be a strong player? By playing with a weaker list I am a weaker player? If I cannot see a units strengths how could I balance my list against my opponents?

Martel732 wrote:

I've never had an issue steamrolling tactical marines with ASM. BA ASM actually do benefit from some expensive synergy with other units in the list. They have a 78% save rate against bolters and with SoS, a 55% save rate against plasma. Getting off a single double tap is not going to save the tacticals. Stepping up to double tap guarantees me an assault and then they're done.

Anecdotal, I've never had a problem beating people with tactical marines, irrelevant. Also you just added what, 200 pts of elite and HQ to your unit to make your point, on a unit that was already more expensive than the one it is compared to. Enough to pay for another whole squad and then some.

Yes I'm the one saying play weaker lists, the guy still loving 40k

We basically are playing two different games. I'm seriously considering your suggestion of moving on because I do enjoy other games much more and I refuse to put more money into this one.

Yes we are playing difrent games apprently

 Crantor wrote:

Marines have poor access to 2++ rerollable and ignores cover

@Martel732


How many armies actually have easy access to 2++ rerollable? You make it sound like marines are the only ones.


Ignores cover?

Thunderfire
Whirlwind
Sternguard special ammo
Tigurius
Flamers
Heavy Flamers
Flamestorms
Legion of the Damned
Grav-guns (depends on how you interpret the rules)

Looks like plenty of ignores cover options for marines.

Is it because you want ignores cover at 2++ re roll for Tact marines? It seems more like you are having issues with the codex more than the tacts.

I agree though that Tacts tend to get ignored in favour of the other more deadly stuff. But you should be playing to that. It stands to reason that your deadly stuff should be softening up the opponent as well. If you can cause enough hurt your opponent likely won't have anything left to be able to dislodge your tact squads as easily as you say. So when they are forced into a Pyrhic victory over all of your elites and stuff, they now have to contend with displacing 30-40 marines with only a few turns left to do it.

If you don't like Tacts then get allies, min max your troops and spend more stuff on the deadlier stuff, through in an Inquisitor and fight cheese with cheese.

I'd be curious to see what kind of C:SM list you run that consitantly gets it's good units wiped out and your tacts wiped out to a man after that. I don't know what your local scene is like so I'd be curious to know.

I think though we can all agree that Marines are not top tier. But someone has to be up there I guess.

As to your suggested fix, Str 5 isn't the solution in my mind. Being able to select two special weapons is good or as I mentioned give their bolters shred when stationary.

That's a whole other can of worms. Marines in general don't cause enough casualties to keep up with the Xeno competition.

I use a variety of lists, but I haven't found any combo that lets me crack Riptide/Buffmander, Screamerstar, or Wave Serpent/Jetseer council. My success rate against other meq lists is actually quite high. There is nothing in the marine codex that gives me the fits that the previously mentioned lists do. In fact, I'm famous in my playgroup for my disdain of other meq lists while playing meqs myself. This is because other meq lists can't shut me down from range like Xeno lists. Even the most potent marine list is a vacation from serpent spam. And marines are very vulnerable compared to other, higher quality lists. But the players I play against have migrated to those other lists because they want to play against the other Riptide/Screamerstar/Jetseer lists.

As for your curiosity about why my games proceed the way they do is pretty straightforward. The Xeno lists can basically ignore tactical squads. This means is if they kill some select other units, they are safe from a damage standpoint. Most marine elite units that cause damage have no extra defenses. Sternguard are a perfect example of this. After their alpha strike, they take damage no better than any other marine. This is crippling. This fact is how I am able to compete against other C:SM lists with BA. Teqs are another example. On a per point basis, their defenses are *inferior* to a tactical marine. A tactical marine who already is getting run off the table by Xeno firepower.

Marines lack throw weight. Their damage is capped by the costly nature of everything about their list. Basically, marines are dying much faster than I can kill back. None of these rules people quote about tacticals over and over help with this one bit. Now that 3+ armor is basically a joke, there is nowhere left to hide for the tactical marine.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Yes we are playing difrent games apprently

If you came to my play group, you would understand. I've had games where tactical marines killed nothing. Nothing. And there was nothing I could do about it.

When your possible targets are: Jetseer council, Wave Serpent, or Wraithknight, you see why I would prefer Kroot snipers, because at least they can down the Wraithknight and take SOME pressure off my killy units.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Yes we are playing difrent games apprently

If you came to my play group, you would understand. I've had games where tactical marines killed nothing. Nothing. And there was nothing I could do about it.

And if you came to play at my group your Tactical Marines would be winning you games. Then you would understand.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Yes we are playing difrent games apprently

If you came to my play group, you would understand. I've had games where tactical marines killed nothing. Nothing. And there was nothing I could do about it.

And if you came to play at my group your Tactical Marines would be winning you games. Then you would understand.

But I'd win even more if I had cheaper units to stand around and not contribute.

And it doesn't sound like your tacs win anything for you. It sounds like your opponents don't bring adequate firepower. Because unless your group is making rules up, I KNOW the tacs aren't killing anything.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Yes we are playing difrent games apprently

If you came to my play group, you would understand. I've had games where tactical marines killed nothing. Nothing. And there was nothing I could do about it.

And if you came to play at my group your Tactical Marines would be winning you games. Then you would understand.

But I'd win even more if I had cheaper units to stand around and not contribute.

And it doesn't sound like your tacs win anything for you. It sounds like your opponents don't bring adequate firepower. Because unless your group is making rules up, I KNOW the tacs aren't killing anything.

You could say that my Tactial Squads don't win by killing things, they dont most of the time. They win my games bt being there on turn 5 sitting on Objectives.

And that's why I say your opponents aren't bringing enough firepower because sometimes I don't have models left in turn 5. Against Xenos. Funny how I can win against meqs no problem, but 6th ed Xenos are killing me down to nothing.

With as many tacticals as you are talking about, you are crippling your own ability to hit back. But, if your opponents don't field lethal lists, then hitting back becomes not as important.

Martel732 wrote:
And that's why I say your opponents aren't bringing enough firepower because sometimes I don't have models left in turn 5. Against Xenos. Funny how I can win against meqs no problem, but 6th ed Xenos are killing me down to nothing.

With as many tacticals as you are talking about, you are crippling your own ability to hit back. But, if your opponents don't field lethal lists, then hitting back becomes not as important.

A 2k Marine list with 33 Plasma Weapons is not killy enough?

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
And that's why I say your opponents aren't bringing enough firepower because sometimes I don't have models left in turn 5. Against Xenos. Funny how I can win against meqs no problem, but 6th ed Xenos are killing me down to nothing.

With as many tacticals as you are talking about, you are crippling your own ability to hit back. But, if your opponents don't field lethal lists, then hitting back becomes not as important.

A 2k Marine list with 33 Plasma Weapons is not killy enough?

Not against a 2K Eldar, Tau or Daemon list. They don't care about your plasma. Neither do mech BA at 2K. Other meqs do, but we've already established I know how to beat them and do so regularly. My lord 2K unlocks double force org. So many Riptides........

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
And that's why I say your opponents aren't bringing enough firepower because sometimes I don't have models left in turn 5. Against Xenos. Funny how I can win against meqs no problem, but 6th ed Xenos are killing me down to nothing.

With as many tacticals as you are talking about, you are crippling your own ability to hit back. But, if your opponents don't field lethal lists, then hitting back becomes not as important.

A 2k Marine list with 33 Plasma Weapons is not killy enough?

Not against a 2K Eldar, Tau or Daemon list. They don't care about your plasma. Neither do mech BA at 2K. Other meqs do, but we've already established I know how to beat them and do so regularly. My lord 2K unlocks double force org. So many Riptides........

How are Blood Angels imune to Plasma?

Mech BA. I'm in a tank shooting you and Baal preds are gunning your little tactical losers down by the bucketful. Think of the Baal pred as an incredibly crappy Wave Serpent. But here it does okay. And you can't pen AV 13 with plasma, so by the time you hull point them out, I just send in the clean up crew.

Granted, there are a ton of lists out there that just wreck BA mech, which is why I don't use it very often anymore. But C:SM plasma spam is not one of them.

Martel732 wrote:
Mech BA. I'm in a tank shooting you and Baal preds are gunning your little tactical losers down by the bucketful. And you can't pen AV 13 with plasma, so by the time you hull point them out, I just send in the clean up crew.

Granted, there are a ton of lists out there that just wreck BA mech, which is why I don't use it very often anymore. But C:SM plasma spam is not one of them.

Yes but they are AV11 from the rear.
I don't need to Pen them, I can Just Glance them to death
I still get my 3+ Save
I don't see the issue right now

Experiences will vary I guess.

How about using Tacticals in more unconventional way and make them your alpha strike (situation and task will vary of course).

Take a 5 man tact. In a drop pod with melta and combi-melta. yes it will die but I've come to expect that with alpha strike units. Anyways this build is suitable for most vehicles. Works even better if you can land two of these and land them together. That 5 man build is about the same cost as one sternguard squad without any upgrades. With Ultra doctrine you could get two melta shots off with a re-roll.

Another build is to take 10 guys but combat squad them when they get out to avoid concentrated fire.

To be honest I run into similar situations but not likely to the same extreme as you.

My SOP is to have Tiggy with a Dev squad and try (but almost always get) the ignores cover divination power.

I have normally two 10 man Tact that are equiped either with plasma cannons or Lascannons but that's it. I park them and take pot shots. while they won't wipe out anything they do contribute to wounds/hp damage etc and can even finish some stuff off.

I've also taken to using a guard blob as allies to sit back and do nothing and keeping Tact costs down. Also unlocks some guard arty for my marines.

A local here suggested creating a SM deathstar using Cassius and a souped up CM with the eternal shield and the teeth of terra sword. They would land with sternguard break off and form a two man unit. 2+ 3++ EW with rampage and with majority toughness are at T6. CM could LOS shots that hit Cassius and the whole two get Zealot. Not a bad alpha strike unit and might actually survive to get into melee.

Anyways were getting off topic.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Mech BA. I'm in a tank shooting you and Baal preds are gunning your little tactical losers down by the bucketful. And you can't pen AV 13 with plasma, so by the time you hull point them out, I just send in the clean up crew.

Granted, there are a ton of lists out there that just wreck BA mech, which is why I don't use it very often anymore. But C:SM plasma spam is not one of them.

Yes but they are AV11 from the rear.
I don't need to Pen them, I can Just Glance them to death
I still get my 3+ Save
I don't see the issue right now

Actually, they're AV 10 on the rear. How do you tactical squads get on the rear? Or even the side of a fast tank? I can move 6" every turn and fire 12 shots at 24". Your 3+ save means nothing against wound spam that you can't retaliate against. As I said, they are crappy Wave Serpents in this scenario.

Drop Pods and/or Storm Ravens
And it is not my Tactical Squads doing the killing, it's my Speeders and Sternguard.

 Anpu42 wrote:
Drop Pods and/or Storm Ravens
And it is not my Tactical Squads doing the killing, it's my Speeders and Sternguard.

How many turns of shooting do you think speeders or Sternguard are going to get compared to a Riptide or Wave Serpent? I'll gladly take on your worst.

Autolas preds and las plas razors will make a mess of the speeders and the Sternguard will be one-shot johnnies. There is not a single quality target in my mech BA list for Sternguard. The best you can get is a pred. Good for you. Kill a pred and then die to the man. Because as I pointed out before, Sternguard are extra points, but can't TAKE fire better than any other marine. And I'm up points on the trade.

I'm well schooled in drop pod defense. I battle Wolves and they do it better than C:SM anyway. A little terrain trickery and unit placement really limits where the pods can come in.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Drop Pods and/or Storm Ravens
And it is not my Tactical Squads doing the killing, it's my Speeders and Sternguard.

How many turns of shooting do you think speeders or Sternguard are going to get compared to a Riptide or Wave Serpent? I'll gladly take on your worst.

Autolas preds and las plas razors will make a mess of the speeders and the Sternguard will be one-shot johnnies. There is not a single quality target in my mech BA list for Sternguard. The best you can get is a pred. Good for you. Kill a pred and then die to the man. Because as I pointed out before, Sternguard are extra points, but can't TAKE fire better than any other marine. And I'm up points on the trade.

I'm well schooled in drop pod defense. I battle Wolves and they do it better than C:SM anyway. A little terrain trickery and unit placement really limits where the pods can come in.

So am I fighting TauDar or Marines here?
Well I will tell what is normal foir me
My Sternguad Drop and put 10 Plasma Shots into the rear of two Vehiles/MCs or HQ each. My Speeders move to a Side shot and shoot down a third Vehicle/MC.
Anything else eats about 6 Plasma Cannons.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
Drop Pods and/or Storm Ravens
And it is not my Tactical Squads doing the killing, it's my Speeders and Sternguard.

How many turns of shooting do you think speeders or Sternguard are going to get compared to a Riptide or Wave Serpent? I'll gladly take on your worst.

Autolas preds and las plas razors will make a mess of the speeders and the Sternguard will be one-shot johnnies. There is not a single quality target in my mech BA list for Sternguard. The best you can get is a pred. Good for you. Kill a pred and then die to the man. Because as I pointed out before, Sternguard are extra points, but can't TAKE fire better than any other marine. And I'm up points on the trade.

I'm well schooled in drop pod defense. I battle Wolves and they do it better than C:SM anyway. A little terrain trickery and unit placement really limits where the pods can come in.

So am I fighting TauDar or Marines here?
Well I will tell what is normal foir me
My Sternguad Drop and put 10 Plasma Shots into the rear of two Vehiles/MCs or HQ each. My Speeders move to a Side shot and shoot down a third Vehicle/MC.
Anything else eats about 6 Plasma Cannons.

Since your list has no blast weapons, why would someone let you drop behind their vehicles? Marines don't bubblewrap super well, but they still can. Compare your alpha strike to what Wave Serpents can do, and I think you'll see why I don't fear marines. Also, notice how much your tacticals are contributing to this attack. Virtually nothing. You basically are engaging your opponent piecemealed. They'll thank you for that.

Martel732 wrote:
"It is painfully obvious that you haven´t played any other army. ATSKNF (totally broken), Combat Squads (tactical heaven) and Chapter Traits (endless customization, picking up special rules for free!!) are three of the best rules in the game. Most of you are saying that they do not matter, and then say things about other armies that are just plain wrong. "

I've army swapped many times to show others what I have to deal with. They usually don't like the results. ATSKNF is actually far, far from broken. In my experiences, it is virtually useless in the 6th ed meta. My marines DIE. They don't get a chance to roll morale.

Perhaps you swapped armies with Eldar and Tau players?

Armies without Morale protection can see their units wiped out with ease. That´s Sweeping Advance. It is a big rule. And you get units running out of the table. ATSKNF makes Marines invulnerable to something that is a BIG problem for most armies. It is like being invulnerable to tanks or to close combat. Tyranids (Instinctive Behavior), Daemons (Daemonic Instability), Guard, Chaos, Sisters... for most armies taking care of morale aspects is key. The fact that you are ignoring this entire part of the game is only because Marines are immune to it.

Also... if you changed armies.... did you used Chaos Space Marines, Sisters or Genestealers, to name a few? They are more or less the same cost than a Tactical Marine, but far worse in all regards. And how can people say "tactical are useless, they are just 70 points to get objectives" when they have played Cultists? Cultists are useless, as in "pick a mission: they will fail trying to do it". Tactical Marines are extremely useful. They are meh compared to other units from their own Codex, but quite good is used properly. And tough. And customizable. And cheap.

What we have said is Until the Ingnore-Cover-Anti-AP3 Weapondry goes away MEQs are going to struggle.

This is true. Marines struggle against two armies. Tau and Eldar.

This is not Telling His Meta to change we are saying GW needs to change. Yes those of us who has said, they don't need those fixes feel that way. If you have not noticed the past two days I have tried to make sugestions on how to make them better rather than just say Nope, Nope, Nope.
I also gave you concrete changes, except for how to make the GK the special snowflake again if we give tacs their firepower. I really hate the GK and didn't want to think that hard.

I agree they will be OK with a little buff.
But then most armies have way more problems. Marines are the "beloved faction" of GW. The last Codex is a testament to that. It is a pure masterpiece compared to any other Codex in 6th regarding everything but competitiveness. You only need to look at the Tyranid Codex, which is about 90% a copy paste of the last Codex, with less units and less options. And if you really want to go deeper, get a Codex: Adepta Sororitas.

"All armies lack the number of options the Marines have. "

It doesn't matter if all the options are bad/overcosted/ineffectual.

Most Marine options are far more powerful, and usually far cheaper, than those from the average army. Again, you seem to focus on Eldar or Tau to say things like that. Look at the CSM Codex to find really, really bad options. Or most other Codexes indeed, including Eldar and Tau, who have some really Good options, but also some completely useless options. GW does not playtest their armies, it seems, with the exception of Marines.

nobody wrote:
(...)
And personally I agree that a LOT of the problem is that certain units need a strong nerf (specifically, I think the riptide needs to lose access to the EWO, Sepent Shields should be one shot only, and rerolled armor/cover/invuln saves should not be any better than 4+)

This is it. Most of the reasons for Marines to "suck" is that they are slightly below the top three. But the top three have just a few broken units. Fix that units instead of buffing all units from most Codexes. A few changes and everyone can be happy.

 Anpu42 wrote:

However I think everyone should read BRB pg 8 upper right(?) corner

The First Rule: "Warhammer 40.000 may be somewhat different to any other game you have played. Above all, it's important to remember that the rules are just the framework to support an enjoyable game. Whether a battle ends in victory or defeat, your goal should always be to enjoy the journey. What's more, Warhammer 40.000 calls on a lot from you, the player. Your job isn't just to follow the rules, it's also to add your own ideas, drama and creativity to the game. Much of the appeal of this game lies in the freedom and open-endedness that this allows; it is in this spirit that the rules have been written."

The only way this game works: if you see something you don´t like, talk with the other player and change it. There is no fun in a one-sided battle.

Martel732 wrote:
Since your list has no blast weapons

Then what are Plasma Cannons?

Why would someone let you drop behind their vehicles?

By not giving them a choice, You can get a drop pod real close to a targets rear with no fear usually.

Marines don't bubble wrap super well, but they still can.
Compare your alpha strike to what Wave Serpents can do, and I think you'll see why I don't fear marines.

So am I fighting Marines or Eldar?

Also, notice how much your Tacticals are contributing to this attack. Virtually nothing. You basically are engaging your opponent piecemealed. They'll thank you for that.

Yes they are, If I did not have Tacticals, who would hold my Objectives?
That is their contribution, doing their job, holding objectives so I can gain VPs and win the game. They are also fielding 2 of the Plasma Cannons, sometimes 3.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Also, notice how much your Tacticals are contributing to this attack. Virtually nothing. You basically are engaging your opponent piecemealed. They'll thank you for that.

Yes they are, If I did not have Tacticals, who would hold my Objectives?
That is their contribution, doing their job, holding objectives so I can gain VPs and win the game. They are also fielding 2 of the Plasma Cannons, sometimes 3.

Same here. I run two tacticals with plasma cannons. They win my games by holding objectives, while the rest of the army does other things. They are reliable, they can handle almost anything save for really strong stuff.

I also run some demi-squad with melta&sword or melta&fist right behind the elite/fast/heavy/hq units that attack the enemy position. They provide some help if needed and, more important, take the objective and win the game for me.

They are not the heros leading the army, but they get their job done.

And that´s something most Troops DO NOT.

Martel732 wrote:
And that's why I say your opponents aren't bringing enough firepower because sometimes I don't have models left in turn 5. Against Xenos. Funny how I can win against meqs no problem, but 6th ed Xenos are killing me down to nothing.

With as many tacticals as you are talking about, you are crippling your own ability to hit back. But, if your opponents don't field lethal lists, then hitting back becomes not as important.

Perhaps it is a cover problem?

There should be lots of cover on the game. Armies are not supposed to destroy the other from afar, this is a game based on objectives. Do you use enough LOS-blocking terrain?

 da001 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Also, notice how much your Tacticals are contributing to this attack. Virtually nothing. You basically are engaging your opponent piecemealed. They'll thank you for that.

Yes they are, If I did not have Tacticals, who would hold my Objectives?
That is their contribution, doing their job, holding objectives so I can gain VPs and win the game. They are also fielding 2 of the Plasma Cannons, sometimes 3.

Same here. I run two tacticals with plasma cannons. They win my games by holding objectives, while the rest of the army does other things. They are reliable, they can handle almost anything save for really strong stuff.

I also run some demi-squad with melta&sword or melta&fist right behind the elite/fast/heavy/hq units that attack the enemy position. They provide some help if needed and, more important, take the objective and win the game for me.

They are not the heros leading the army, but they get their job done.

And that´s something most Troops DO NOT.

Martel732 wrote:
And that's why I say your opponents aren't bringing enough firepower because sometimes I don't have models left in turn 5. Against Xenos. Funny how I can win against meqs no problem, but 6th ed Xenos are killing me down to nothing.

With as many tacticals as you are talking about, you are crippling your own ability to hit back. But, if your opponents don't field lethal lists, then hitting back becomes not as important.

Perhaps it is a cover problem?

There should be lots of cover on the game. Armies are not supposed to destroy the other from afar, this is a game based on objectives. Do you use enough LOS-blocking terrain?

What's "enough"? Every table is randomly generated as per the rules. Tau and Eldar didn't get your memo on not destroying from afar.

I've played without ATSKNF on marines before to prove a point about how not useful this rule is. It all comes down to whether you opponents are optimizing their lists or not I suppose. If your opponent leaves stragglers, they get what they deserve I guess. But I was able to beat CSM without too much trouble even without ATSKNF. Because I mostly shot them to death. That's why lack of ATSKNF really doesn't matter to Tau or Eldar; there are no sweeping advances because there is no CC happening. You die before you can get there.

As for army swap, as if beating C:SM with BA isn't bad enough, I did it with DE as well. That's all I've done that I can think of with regards to C:SM.

I think he also meant what kind of terrain. If you randomnly generate 3 pieces of terrain on one 12x12 area and all you do is place little rocks and low fences or a swamp then yeah I see the issue. What about LOS blocking terrain? The game sI've played in my area have been way better when we introduced LOS blocking terrain as a standard.

 Crantor wrote:
I think he also meant what kind of terrain. If you randomnly generate 3 pieces of terrain on one 12x12 area and all you do is place little rocks and low fences or a swamp then yeah I see the issue. What about LOS blocking terrain? The game sI've played in my area have been way better when we introduced LOS blocking terrain as a standard.

There is a variable amount of LOS blocking terrain available at any given time. I can't really use that as an excuse, though, because I can't reliably beat Tau/Eldar/Daemon even with a lot of terrain. I can handle other meqs not problem either way.

Taudar players want to play on a parking lot, of course.

I don't see how terrain solves the issue of tac marines having pitiful throw weight for their points.

Martel732 wrote:

I don't see how terrain solves the issue of tac marines having pitiful throw weight for their points.

You are exagerating. Pitiful is hardly the word I would use.

Why not do a line by line comparison and how many points base units are.

5 Tact Marines is 70 pts base. Are they better or worse than 10 Guard vets at the same cost? How about 5 scouts? Or the min DE warriors whatever they cost.

If you were to pit a base non upgraded squad against another which one whould you pick? Work from that premise.

Heck even better, max out each troops choice and see how many upgrades and options you could give yourself and see which one you would pick.

Like 10 Tact with ML and plasma gun and combi plasma and razorback. Would you pick that or 30 Gaunts tooled up? Or 10 Fire warriors and a Devil fish?

Martel732 wrote:

 Crantor wrote:
I think he also meant what kind of terrain. If you randomnly generate 3 pieces of terrain on one 12x12 area and all you do is place little rocks and low fences or a swamp then yeah I see the issue. What about LOS blocking terrain? The game sI've played in my area have been way better when we introduced LOS blocking terrain as a standard.

There is a variable amount of LOS blocking terrain available at any given time. I can't really use that as an excuse, though, because I can't reliably beat Tau/Eldar/Daemon even with a lot of terrain. I can handle other meqs not problem either way.

Taudar players want to play on a parking lot, of course.

I don't see how terrain solves the issue of tac marines having pitiful throw weight for their points.

Then don’t play that game, try something difrent.
Tau requite Marker Lights to Ignore Cover and Shoot Well, that means Pathfinders. Remove the Pathfinders from the equation.
Use drop Pods, Lots of Drop Pods:

This is without the knowledge of what you have exactly

2000 Pts - Blood Angels Roster



Now this give you 7 Drop Pods and One Model that Can not be put in Reserve, the Baal Predator.


Turn One:
The only Model you need to concern yourself with it the Baal Predator. If you are going first, Scout it, if not find something to hide behind and prey.
You Drop 4 Pods.
Pod#1] Feed The Pathfinders your Sternguard using Flamers and Ignore Cover Ammo.
Pod #2] If there is a second Pathfinder Group, feed it one of the Assault Squads if no go after the Kroot Snipers hiding in the woods.
Pod #3] Waves Serpents get a Tactical Squad in the rear, oh there are some guardians or something there Go for the Squad.
Pod #4] Tycho and friends land near the Riptide and feed it Melta.

There should be so much Chaos going on your opponent will need to come up defenses on the run as now that he has to live without Marker Lights.

He has Broadsides: Pod #3