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" It is painfully obvious that you haven´t played any other army."

I have, and being swept is a good thing sometimes. I don't know why you are so fixated on ATSKNF. It hasn't won me a game in a long time.

EDIT: Gah! Dakka swallowed half my reply!

 da001 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 da001 wrote:

The points saved add up, allowing you to purchase specialized units that perform better. Whether or not the Marines kill Cultists or not is irrelevant, neither of the two Troops choices can meaningfully threaten killy things, so the only thing left to do for them is to objective camp. Cultists are better at that.

Wrong.
A Tactical Space Marine properly customized can threat anything.
A basic Tactical Space Marine can still deal with small objectives, including walkers and light vehicles and most "infantry that suck". They can do it reliably and they are tough. They need special gear to be properly dealt with.
A Cultist, against most targets, can only cry, and pray to the Darks Gods the Marines player focuses on other things.

Oh for the love of... READ what you're responding to. A Tactical squad with a Heavy Bolter does not meaningfully threaten a squad of Boyz, just like a Tactical Squad with a Lascannon does not meaningfully threaten a Land Raider.

Heavy Bolters?
You equip your Tactical Marines with Heavy Bolters?

Hey perhaps we have found the reason your Tac do nothing. Know what? Heavy Bolters suck.
Use Plasma Cannon -> your Tac Marines are a big menace to Heavy Infantry
Use Lascannon -> Your Tac Marines are a big manace to big scary Heavy Vehicles.
Meltagun, Plasma Guns, Missile Launchers... there are many ways to make a Tactical Marine matters.

And, by the way, you skipped all the Vehicle/Walkers part.

No, I don't equip Tacticals with Heavy Bolters, and I have absolutely no idea why you came to that conclusion. As you correctly stated, they suck. That's where you ran out of steam, though. As I said in the second half of the very sentence you reacted to, a Tactical Squad with a Lascannon isn't a meaningful threat to heavy armour. Similarly, a Plasma Cannon Tactical squad isn't a meaningful threat to Heavy Infantry, nor Missile Launchers (of all things) to anything. You simply do not put out a meaningful amount of shots from the special or heavy weapons, which is why I feel both Sisters and CSM are better due to double specials. When you've got one shot you're much more vulnerable to statistical outliers than when you've got several, just as Marines (and Sisters, and other low-model-count armies) are more vulnerable to a round of bad saves than Orks or Tyranids.

I skipped the Vehicle/Walkers part because the only Walkers that see competetive play are AV13 anyway, making the point rather moot. Further, I've already explained the difference between specialists and generalists. For the points you save not overspending on Tactical Marines you can buy a proper anti-tank unit instead, and do everything better than the Marines.

 da001 wrote:

While we have already found why your Tactical Marines do nothing (avoid Heavy Bolters and you will be fine) we have yet to find the answer to this mistery: how can your Marines die against a single Termagant unit in assault? Ans a question such as "how on Earth are they gonna get to melee with Sisters of Battle?" begets another question: how it comes your marines die so easily?

I mean, you know if a couple of Tac marines touches the Sisters, they will probably die, do you? They will lose the combat by two or three -> Sweeping -> all dead. So what if they kill one Marine with meltas? Where are your Meltas? Do you realize both units are similarly costed? How can you compare Tactical Marines to Sisters and claim than "Marines suck" with a straight face?

For the HB comment, see above.

Tactical Marines die to a single Termagant squad the same way Sisters do: by rolling badly. It was a response to your claim that you've seen Sisters squads wiped out by Termagant Squads (which I don't doubt BTW) to illustrate the fact that outliers are not the norm.

And I can claim that Sisters are better because having two meltaguns (or flamers) makes them more reliable at doing their job than Marines. Having a unit that can take 2784 options on the army list doesn't matter, what matters is what they can do in-game. If you want a tank-hunting unit, Sisters are probably going to do that better. If you want an anti-infantry unit, Sisters are probably going to do that better. This, in turn, lets you build the rest of the list to deal with things the Sisters themselves can't. I'd still not call Sisters a good Troops unit, but they're better than Tacticals.

You're a bit stuck on Sweeping Advances. What are you getting killed by that wouldn't chew through a Tactical Squad in short order?

 da001 wrote:


You said: Whether or not the Marines kill Cultists or not is irrelevant, neither of the two Troops choices can meaningfully threaten killy things, so the only thing left to do for them is to objective camp. Cultists are better at that.
I said: that´s not true. Then I gave you scores of situations where the Tactical Marines were able to do lots of things other than that. Other people posted more situations. On the other side, the Cultist were completely unable to do any other thing that objective camp.

Your answer? You said "Oh for the love of... READ what you're responding to. A Tactical squad with a Heavy Bolter does not meaningfully threaten a squad of Boyz, just like a Tactical Squad with a Lascannon does not meaningfully threaten a Land Raider." and change the size of your sentence.

1: I did answer your question, proving I had read it.
2: You didn´t answer to what I posted. At all. The fact that you quoted part of it makes it even more obvious.
3: Your answer does not make sense at all. Do you admit Tactical Marines can actually do everything I said while still claiming that they are bad just because they cannot kill Boyz with Heavy Bolters? Or do you believe Tactical Marines cannot deal with, say, light vehicles that go too near, walkers, Heavy Infantry (with the help of plasma), and so on?

You didn't answer the question though; none of the examples you posted have any sort of meaningful application in-game. Whether or not Marines can kill a walker is irrelevant when no one takes walkers with lower than AV13 front because they're bad.

 da001 wrote:

Wrong.
If you played that way, you played it wrong.
Here are some reasons why ATSKNF is such an awesome rule. Some reasons why so many people claim it is broken.

-> Tyranids are only Fearless under Synapse. Break the Synapse and they start running, killing themselves by getting out the table or even start attacking each other. A tyranid player who forget morale is bound to be defeated. As a Marine player, you should know this and try to breake the Synapse. If you do, that, the lack of ATSKNF will do the rest.
-> Chaos has VorLW and Fearless?? Really? Check that.
-> Daemons. Well at least you ask "what morale test?" here. I already answer your that question in a previous post. The rule is called Daemonic Instablity. As a Marine player, you should know that units with low Ld will suffer a lot in close combat, if they lose the combat, because the lack of ATSKNF.
-> Orks are only Fearless in numbers. Big units of elite troops are expensive and do not usually have numbers enough to keep it. That´s a major advantage for a Marine player.
-> Tau have Bonding Knives. Oh my! totally like ATSKNF. They still die touching the border, and they die in scores by sweeping advance. A single "useless" tactical marine can destroy the entire Tau line if let alive. Try it. Get some Tac Marines near the Fire Warriors. Either the Tau player will address the 70 points problem (thus ignoring other threats) or the useless tac marines will have a chance of unbalancing the game, all by themselves. And, by the way, this is something you can do with cultists too. The difference is that tac marines have lots of viable options to get there, and actually have a chance of getting close and even surviving some Tau firepower.
-> IG have Comissars? Didn´t know they got them in every unit, for free. That´s the problem: you are assuming Marines should receive incredible expensive special rules and then complain that it is not enough. Comissars are awesome... but they are expensive and if they die you have a problem. ATSKNF is free for every single one of your units.

So you think these armies have a ATSKNF equivalent? A free rule for all models that allows them to ignore Morale?
I said it before and I am saying it again: It is painfully obvious that you haven´t played any other army.

Could you please point out the place I said that they're equivalent to ATSKNF? I'll wait.

As a closing statement, I'd like to ask you to stop assuming that I don't know anything about Morale. As a Black Templars player, I can assure you I do.

 dracpanzer wrote:
Somehow I've read the entire thread, and while I admire those who have defended the notion that Tactical Marines are not worth their points. I just can't find it in me to argue against those who think all the options Tacticals have somehow make them stronger. They are a point sink, if your Meta doesn't prove that to you each and every game. Good for you. That doesn't mean anything to those of us who take the field against armies that hit the table looking to wreck face every game. Are Tactical Marines the worst troop choice in the game? No. Are they the best? No. Are they worth the points in a competitive Meta?

No.

 da001 wrote:
I mean, you know if a couple of Tac marines touches the Sisters, they will probably die, do you? They will lose the combat by two or three -> Sweeping -> all dead. So what if they kill one Marine with meltas? Where are your Meltas? Do you realize both units are similarly costed? How can you compare Tactical Marines to Sisters and claim than "Marines suck" with a straight face?

Must be nice to play against SoB players who don't run priests AND run melta's in their battle sister squads.

That sould be Ultra-Compeative Meta. We have at least for us a very compeative Meta. Now we don't have TauDar running around, but We would all like to change that. Our group is also not into the whole Turny mind set, so we will never see the Tripple Riptide.
And yes you can have a competative Meta without Tripple Riptides, bcouse Tripple TauDar Riptide list are anything but Competative.

 Anpu42 wrote:

And yes you can have a competative Meta without Tripple Riptides, bcouse Tripple TauDar Riptide list are anything but Competative.

No, you can't.




See, I can make up stuff without backing it up too!

EDIT:

Let's put it this way: between the top 16 players of NOVA 2013, top 16 of Adepticon 2013 and the top 15 of the BAO 2013 there's a grand total of 10 Tactical Marines. Those are in Tony Kopach's runner-up list and are two squads of five Marines with a combi-melta because he had to fill his minimum Troops requirement. Admittedly that was before the current book, but even with price drops Tacticals aren't too different.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

And yes you can have a competative Meta without Tripple Riptides, bcouse Tripple TauDar Riptide list are anything but Competative.

No, you can't.




See, I can make up stuff without backing it up too!

EDIT:

Let's put it this way: between the top 16 players of NOVA 2013, top 16 of Adepticon 2013 and the top 15 of the BAO 2013 there's a grand total of 10 Tactical Marines. Those are in Tony Kopach's runner-up list and are two squads of five Marines with a combi-melta because he had to fill his minimum Troops requirement. Admittedly that was before the current book, but even with price drops Tacticals aren't too different.

No the Superbowl is Competative.
Three Riptives vs an Army that has no defence against them in Domination.

And they are dominating because tac marines can't bring enough hurt to make the Xenos honest.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 da001 wrote:

Have you seen a Chaos Terminator running out of the table?

I have not. Thus far all my units either have an IoV, VotLW and/or an Independent in them, making them very difficult to force off via morale. It's sad as I like IoE and IoR, but oh well.(...) CSM should have fearless or ATSKNF baseline, Legion Tactics, and be 14 pts base just like Tacticals... And even then they need fixes just like Tacs do.

We are in agreement then. Chaos have a problem with morale, and you need to buy stuff to get through it.

I was OK with getting Tactical Marines fixed, they need fixing. I actually proposed some. Getting them a CCW and the possibility of getting a second special (or heavy) sounds really good.

The point of the discussion is "Tactical Marines suck and cannot do anything" vs "they are one of the best Troop basic unit in the game". There are many other troops in a worse situation... starting with CSM. When I pointed out the advantage ATSKNF (among many other rules) means for loyalists, I was answered that Chaos Space Marines get Fearless. Well they do not. Some people here is claiming lots of odd things.

Your post came right there.

Tacticals should be able to gun down other ranged forces, though not entirely points effectively, and chop down melee enemies, though not entirely points effectively.

They do neither. The 'counter' units are so extremely easy to target the Marines with so their supposed advantages become irrelevant. My Forgefiend does not care if it is Gretchin or Tacticals it is shooting at, and only the Forgefiend (Which is not an awesome unit in itself) pretty much completely invalidates footslogging Tacs unless the enemy can kill it quickly.

I disagree,

They are a basic 70 points Troop option. They are not there to "gun down ranged forces" or "chop down melee enemies". They hold objectives and can lay a hand in many situations. That´s all they are supposed to do, and with the last buff in 6th they are quite good at it. A Heldrake kills them? Yeah, sure. Compare it with a similarly costed unit. And remember that they try to be able to help at anything. They are generalists.

 dracpanzer wrote:

 da001 wrote:
I mean, you know if a couple of Tac marines touches the Sisters, they will probably die, do you? They will lose the combat by two or three -> Sweeping -> all dead. So what if they kill one Marine with meltas? Where are your Meltas? Do you realize both units are similarly costed? How can you compare Tactical Marines to Sisters and claim than "Marines suck" with a straight face?

Must be nice to play against SoB players who don't run priests AND run melta's in their battle sister squads.

Sorry I thought we were talking about basic Troops. I didn´t know your Sisters got a priest attached. Anyway Tacticals will still destroy them because they have both Marneus Calgar and Tigurius attached.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know why you are so fixated on ATSKNF. It hasn't won me a game in a long time.

It is a nice rule, that help a lot in many situations. And I am not "fixated", it is just one rule. I also mentioned Chapter Tactics and Combat Squads. If Marines suck, then many other Troops suck even harder, because Marines have a lot of nice rules that, all put together, gets them over the average basic Troop.

It all boils down to wheter or not we are comparing Marines with Tau/Eldar and claiming Tac Marines are useless because they have zero chances against a Riptide.

 da001 wrote:


It all boils down to wheter or not we are comparing Marines with Tau/Eldar and claiming Tac Marines are useless because they have zero chances against a Riptide.

Or Daemons. Or Tyranids. Or CSM. Or Sisters. Or Orks. Or...

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 da001 wrote:


It all boils down to wheter or not we are comparing Marines with Tau/Eldar and claiming Tac Marines are useless because they have zero chances against a Riptide.

Or Daemons. Or Tyranids. Or CSM. Or Sisters. Or Orks. Or...

Funny My Tactical Marines handle them all of the time.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 da001 wrote:


It all boils down to wheter or not we are comparing Marines with Tau/Eldar and claiming Tac Marines are useless because they have zero chances against a Riptide.

Or Daemons. Or Tyranids. Or CSM. Or Sisters. Or Orks. Or...

Funny My Tactical Marines handle them all of the time.

How do Tactical Marines handle CSM? They get twice the plasma you do.

How do Tactical Marines handle Tyranids? They get T6 W6 MCs.

How do Tactical Marines handle Daemonettes? Or Nurglings who aren't anywhere near you and just sit around to score for cheap?

Even against Orks, who ought to be a prime target for Tactical Marines, they don't do too well, because if you're in Rapid Fire range you're in comfortable charge range next turn, and you're not beating charging Orks. If you first shoot and then charge them with 10 Tactical Marines you kill around 7 Orks, assuming you live through Overwatch, don't shoot yourself out of range and somehow manage to get within charging distance of Orks without them charging you first. Then you'll be ground down.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 da001 wrote:


It all boils down to wheter or not we are comparing Marines with Tau/Eldar and claiming Tac Marines are useless because they have zero chances against a Riptide.

Or Daemons. Or Tyranids. Or CSM. Or Sisters. Or Orks. Or...

Funny My Tactical Marines handle them all of the time.

I think we've established that the players in your meta aren't using good lists. If you guys have fun with that, great, but don't try to pass it off like some kind of metric that means something. That BA list you suggested would be massacred in my play group. Admittedly, BA in general get massacred, but the fact that you thought that list had a legitimate chance says a lot. Yeah, you might call us "elitist", but to others, we are merely "effective".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 da001 wrote:


It all boils down to wheter or not we are comparing Marines with Tau/Eldar and claiming Tac Marines are useless because they have zero chances against a Riptide.

Or Daemons. Or Tyranids. Or CSM. Or Sisters. Or Orks. Or...

Funny My Tactical Marines handle them all of the time.

How do Tactical Marines handle CSM? They get twice the plasma you do.

How do Tactical Marines handle Tyranids? They get T6 W6 MCs.

How do Tactical Marines handle Daemonettes? Or Nurglings who aren't anywhere near you and just sit around to score for cheap?

Even against Orks, who ought to be a prime target for Tactical Marines, they don't do too well, because if you're in Rapid Fire range you're in comfortable charge range next turn, and you're not beating charging Orks. If you first shoot and then charge them with 10 Tactical Marines you kill around 7 Orks, assuming you live through Overwatch, don't shoot yourself out of range and somehow manage to get within charging distance of Orks without them charging you first. Then you'll be ground down.

And the Nob with the power claw that was in the middle of the squad eventually gets into HTH and its over.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 da001 wrote:


It all boils down to wheter or not we are comparing Marines with Tau/Eldar and claiming Tac Marines are useless because they have zero chances against a Riptide.

Or Daemons. Or Tyranids. Or CSM. Or Sisters. Or Orks. Or...

Funny My Tactical Marines handle them all of the time.

How do Tactical Marines handle CSM? They get twice the plasma you do.

How do Tactical Marines handle Tyranids? They get T6 W6 MCs.

How do Tactical Marines handle Daemonettes? Or Nurglings who aren't anywhere near you and just sit around to score for cheap?

Even against Orks, who ought to be a prime target for Tactical Marines, they don't do too well, because if you're in Rapid Fire range you're in comfortable charge range next turn, and you're not beating charging Orks. If you first shoot and then charge them with 10 Tactical Marines you kill around 7 Orks, assuming you live through Overwatch, don't shoot yourself out of range and somehow manage to get within charging distance of Orks without them charging you first. Then you'll be ground down.

2k list with 33 Plasma Weapons.

2K Orks don't care about your plasma. Been there, seen that. Small templates don't kill enough Orks. And plasma can't stop Battlewagons.

Martel732 wrote:
And the Nob with the power claw that was in the middle of the squad eventually gets into HTH and its over.

That why my Sarg's usaly have a Lighting Claw


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
2K Orks don't care about your plasma. Been there, seen that. Small templates don't kill enough Orks. And plasma can't stop Battlewagons.

Not from the front and that is not what Tactical Squads are for?
LErned that the hard way when dealng with 4 Battlewagone with Defroller.
You catch them from the side with Land Speeder Typhoons and Plasma from the rear.

Back to the same talking points about drop pods and the like. Your speeders are not likely to be able to get through the AV 12 KFF shielded wagons in time to prevent disaster.

For sarges with lightning claws, just wait till the sarge is dead. The sarge with a lightning claw is just a waste of points. But whatever, keep telling us how you totally have Battlewagon Orks handled with tactical squads.

Martel732 wrote:
Back to the same talking points about drop pods and the like. Your speeders are not likely to be able to get through the AV 12 KFF shielded wagons in time to prevent disaster.

For sarges with lightning claws, just wait till the sarge is dead. The sarge with a lightning claw is just a waste of points. But whatever, keep telling us how you totally have Battlewagon Orks handled with tactical squads.

I DON'T have them handeled with my Tactical Squads
I Have them Handled with my Army that my Tactical Squads are PART OF!

Tactical Squads will not win you the Battle if that is all you have, that is what everything out their is for.
The Sternguard in a Pod make you HAVE to deal with them at some point.
The Land Speeders are for Flanking and getting at your sides and rear.
The Devistators Are for dealing with your Elite Units
My Choice of useing Pedro give me Army wide Re-Roll 1s with Bolters off all type [exept for Sternguard Special Ammo]

Tactical Squads make up the core and and generaly kill off a good number before they get close from normal wounds and the fact that my Overwatch fire will hit more [Thanks Perdro].
With the Challange System My Sarge gets his chance to kill off your Attack.
Odds are I will kill more Orks than Marines forcing them to make a moral chack if thay are under 11 [normaly is this way at this time] usaly with a penalty and i will most likely make the Sweepeing advance.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

No, I don't equip Tacticals with Heavy Bolters, and I have absolutely no idea why you came to that conclusion

I quoted the part where you used it an an example. Actually you quoted me back your own sentence while quoting me.

It was a bad example. We were discussing about how you can customize your Tactical Marines to make them do some support and you gave two examples. Here is the quote again: "A Tactical squad with a Heavy Bolter does not meaningfully threaten a squad of Boyz, just like a Tactical Squad with a Lascannon does not meaningfully threaten a Land Raider."

The second example is more or less OK. I think you mean "reliably" when saying "meaningfully". A single Lascannon can "meaningfully" threaten a LR because it has a chance (and not a particularly low one) to utterly destroy it in a single shot. It doesn´t "reliably" threatens it because it is one single shot. Tactical Marines cannot destroy Heavy Vehicles reliably, which should be expected, given that they are a basic unit. But they can have a go at it and, potentially, change the course of the battle. They are low-level threats. It is not a game-winner unit, but a humble one. Like most Troops. But then again, they are better at doing that that most other Troops in the game.

Your first example didn´t make sense and I quoted it for that reason: you were stretching your reasonings, giving Marines crappy weapons and then blaming them for not doing their job.

For the points you save not overspending on Tactical Marines you can buy a proper anti-tank unit instead, and do everything better than the Marines.

That´s where the Objective-oriented thing and the FOC strikes. Your are FORCED to buy Troops. They are compulsory.
Of course there are more powerful things. But a rule of the game is there to force you to buy "basic" troops, instead of turning the game into a "superheroes" match.

Of all the "normal people" you are forced to buy, point by point Tactical Marines are among the best.

Tactical Marines die to a single Termagant squad the same way Sisters do: by rolling badly. It was a response to your claim that you've seen Sisters squads wiped out by Termagant Squads (which I don't doubt BTW) to illustrate the fact that outliers are not the norm.

No Marines don´t die that way.

I used that example to explain the reason ATSKNF is a really good rule. Sisters are far weaker in combat, to the point that a basic unit, like a basic Termagant Squad, can easily win a close combat against them by a wound or two. Then, using Sweeping Advance, the entire squad is wiped out.

I was not talking about "bad rolls". Do the math: Termagants are I4 -> they strike first. Both have BS 3 so they hit with a 4+, and both have S3 T3 so they wound with a 4+ too. A basic 10 Termagant means 20 attacks on charge. That´s 20/2 = 10 hits and 10/2 = 5 wounds, which means 1,66 models less. A 60 points Sister squad is 4 sisters and a superior, that should be priority target. If they get two casualties they strike back with 3 attacks, hitting with a 4+, wounding with a 4+, save 6+. That´s 0,625 wounds.

Then Sweeping Advance and the full unit is destroyed.

Wanna see the same numbers with Marines?

Even if you roll really, really, really bad, you will still survive thanks to ATSKNF and the quite good stats Marines have.

Marines suck? Not compared with many armies. And the 12 points Sister Vs 14 points Marine is a joke of a comparison. If you play Sisters, you really need to be careful of where you sent them: anything has a good chance of hurting them. Not with Marines. By the way, at ranged combat they are more or less the same, it is in close combat when the WS3 S3 T3 I3 stats kick. And then Sweeping Advance and your scoring unit is gone. Regarding CSM vs SM, by far the most common match I have met year after year, the difference is quite easy to see: they have roughly about 50% chance of winning or losing the assault. If Chaos wins, nothing happens. If SM wins, the Chaos unit is destroyed roughly 50% of the times.

I'd still not call Sisters a good Troops unit, but they're better than Tacticals

No way.

You're a bit stuck on Sweeping Advances. What are you getting killed by that wouldn't chew through a Tactical Squad in short order?

Anything that is not super-killy. Termagants, other marines, Sisters, CSMs... most units in the game actually. One of my main points is that you are talking as if everything were able to destroy marines with ease.

Last time I played, a CSM squad with a Chaos Lord attached assaulted a 5 men basic demi-squad holding an objective. Not particularly bad rolls, but they got 3 casualties and ran away. The two remaining Marines didn´t die (ATSKNF). They became a threat, because it was turn 5 and they, without help, were potentially able to contest the objective or get another one. The other player could not ignore them. And shooting at them would be a waste of effort. It would have been even better if the plasma cannon dude wasn´t one of the fallen. A plasma blast is quite meaningful against CSM.

Sisters, cultists, nids out of Synapse and the like would have died, and CSM too, depending on the Sweeping Advance roll.
And to be clear: I am talking about basic troops holding an objective.

You didn't answer the question though; none of the examples you posted have any sort of meaningful application in-game.

I did answer your question. You just think my answer is wrong. Because our opinions differ. Not the same thing

Could you please point out the place I said that they're equivalent to ATSKNF? I'll wait.

Here:

 da001 wrote:

It is painfully obvious that you haven´t played any other army. ATSKNF (totally broken), Combat Squads (tactical heaven) and Chapter Traits (endless customization, picking up special rules for free!!) are three of the best rules in the game. Most of you are saying that they do not matter, and then say things about other armies that are just plain wrong.

Oh look, another thing you're wrong about. I've played Orks, IG and CSM too. And guess what? They have ways of coping with morale too. Orks get Fearless and Boss Poles, IG have Orders and Commissars, Chaos has VotLW and Fearless. The same is true for Tau (Bonding Knives), Daemons (what morale test?), and Tyranids have Fearless. It's not just Marines that have ways around morale.

If you were not trying to compare these things to ATSKNF, I don´t know what is this list supposed to mean. That other armies have rules or options, far more expensive and far worse than what Marines get?

It really sounded as if you were comparing ATSKNF with a list of things.... all of them wrong. Bonding Knives, no less. And apparently CSM are Fearless. And you ignored how Morale works for Daemons. And Orks and IG and nids.

As a closing statement, I'd like to ask you to stop assuming that I don't know anything about Morale. As a Black Templars player, I can assure you I do.

Seriously?
If you are talking about Templars before the 6th ed Codex, they were Fearless in close combat, no less. "Righteous Zeal" was a slight inconvenience compared to what Morale can do to not-Fearless units. Try a not-Marine army. Try a nid army without many Synapse bugs. Try Sisters. Try Chaos.

... and try Tau. They have big problems regarding morale in close combat. Even a cultist unit is a danger for them in close combat. That´s the way Tau are supposed to be "balanced" against other factions (I don´t think they are).

"With the Challange System My Sarge gets his chance to kill off your Attack. "

Not if I deny it. If your sergeants have claws, your list is deficient somewhere else. It's unlikely your sarge makes his points back clawing down boyz.

I think this line of debate is pointless. Even in your above description of how your army works, the tactical squads are just a tax.

I don't think your list sounds very good. I can tell you that devastator marines and land speeders in 6th edition are both quite bad. Sternguard in pods seem to be being phased out in favor of Sternguard being used in a less brute force manner. I don't think you would beat most of the Ork players I know with your list.

But it really doesn't matter, because we all know that GW is never going to change tactical squads in a meaningful manner. So I guess the only real litmus test is head to head between marine lists build around tac squads and those lists that minimize them at all costs. And also compare those two approaches' records against the field.

After all, you admitted yourself you don't have much of a chance against Triple Riptide. I've beaten that list with my approach, but my success rate is poor. I don't see how adding tacticals to my lists will improve my success rate against triple riptide.

 da001 wrote:

Could you please point out the place I said that they're equivalent to ATSKNF? I'll wait.

Here:

 da001 wrote:

It is painfully obvious that you haven´t played any other army. ATSKNF (totally broken), Combat Squads (tactical heaven) and Chapter Traits (endless customization, picking up special rules for free!!) are three of the best rules in the game. Most of you are saying that they do not matter, and then say things about other armies that are just plain wrong.

Oh look, another thing you're wrong about. I've played Orks, IG and CSM too. And guess what? They have ways of coping with morale too. Orks get Fearless and Boss Poles, IG have Orders and Commissars, Chaos has VotLW and Fearless. The same is true for Tau (Bonding Knives), Daemons (what morale test?), and Tyranids have Fearless. It's not just Marines that have ways around morale.

If you were not trying to compare these things to ATSKNF, I don´t know what is this list supposed to mean. That other armies have rules or options, far more expensive and far worse than what Marines get?

It really sounded as if you were comparing ATSKNF with a list of things.... all of them wrong. Bonding Knives, no less. And apparently CSM are Fearless. And you ignored how Morale works for Daemons. And Orks and IG and nids.

Comparing =/= saying they're equivalent. I pointed out that other armies have rules that let them cope with morale too. And yes, Chaos Lords make units they're in Fearless. Daemons are Fearless too, as are Plague Zombies.

Morale still works for Marines, you're just as dead as everyone else if you run off the board. Everyone else, on the other hand, aren't (usually) at risk of having one model survive and keep something that you'd rather shoot at locked in combat.

 da001 wrote:

As a closing statement, I'd like to ask you to stop assuming that I don't know anything about Morale. As a Black Templars player, I can assure you I do.

Seriously?
If you are talking about Templars before the 6th ed Codex, they were Fearless in close combat, no less. "Righteous Zeal" was a slight inconvenience compared to what Morale can do to not-Fearless units. Try a not-Marine army. Try a nid army without many Synapse bugs. Try Sisters. Try Chaos.

... and try Tau. They have big problems regarding morale in close combat. Even a cultist unit is a danger for them in close combat. That´s the way Tau are supposed to be "balanced" against other factions (I don´t think they are).

Ld 7 Target Priority Tests all of 5th edition. The rule didn't even exist in the BRB anymore. But I'm sure I know nothing of morale issues, and nothing of having Terminators run off the table due to taking 20% casualties (yes 20%, not 25%). And nothing of having lascannons pulled out of position due to having to consolidate in 6th edition.



To break the stalemate a bit, I'd like to revisit the idea of specialist ammunition we had earlier in the thread. I was thinking, suppose you gave Tactical Squads the following ammo types:

Dragonfire bolt: R24" S4 AP- Ignores Cover Rapid Fire

Hellfire round: R24" S1 AP- Rapid Fire, Poisoned (5+)

Kraken bolt: R30" S4 AP6 Rapid Fire

"Normal" bolt: R24" S4 AP5 Rapid Fire

Rename the Sternguard equivalent ammunition to "Master-crafted X bolt".

This way Tacticals could actually adapt to different targets, choosing whatever ammunition type is better, without stealing all the thunder from other races. Dark Eldar would still do poisoned shooting better, Tau would still have the superior long-range small-arm, and Sternguard would still have better shooting than Tactical Marines.

It'd also open up the possibility for more diversity between the bolter-wielding Codices. Chaos Space Marines would obviously not have access to the same ammunition types as the Imperium, but they'd have their own variations on a similar-yet-different theme. Same with Sisters. Imperial Guard wouldn't get any bolter ammo except for the "normal" bolts, as they're not valuable enough to justify spending the massive resources these bolts cost on.

Martel732 wrote:
"With the Challange System My Sarge gets his chance to kill off your Attack. "

Not if I deny it. If your sergeants have claws, your list is deficient somewhere else. It's unlikely your sarge makes his points back clawing down boyz.

I think this line of debate is pointless. Even in your above description of how your army works, the tactical squads are just a tax.

I don't think your list sounds very good. I can tell you that devastator marines and land speeders in 6th edition are both quite bad. Sternguard in pods seem to be being phased out in favor of Sternguard being used in a less brute force manner. I don't think you would beat most of the Ork players I know with your list.

But it really doesn't matter, because we all know that GW is never going to change tactical squads in a meaningful manner. So I guess the only real litmus test is head to head between marine lists build around tac squads and those lists that minimize them at all costs. And also compare those two approaches' records against the field.

After all, you admitted yourself you don't have much of a chance against Triple Riptide. I've beaten that list with my approach, but my success rate is poor. I don't see how adding tacticals to my lists will improve my success rate against triple riptide.

I know you were talking with Anpu42, but there is something jarring here.

This is Proposed Rules. The topic is about how Tactical Marines can be fixed, not using a tactic, but by changing the rules. You are talking as if a competitive solution is possible. Well it is not. Competitive people will not let you change the rules to bolster your army. As you yourself pointed out, it is nearly impossible that GW will fix the unit in the near future . But if you fix the tactical with a rule... why not fixing Riptides with another rule? The problem is not really the Tactical, there are lots of units in a far worse situation. Fix the overpowered units and that´s all.

I am saying that because you are talking about changing units on the go. Instead of trying to find a fix for one of your units, the "competitive solution" to this problem is quite easy: play Tau/Eldar. This is not the thing I would do, but it is what I see competitive players doing.

Martel732 wrote:
"With the Challange System My Sarge gets his chance to kill off your Attack. "

Not if I deny it. If your sergeants have claws, your list is deficient somewhere else. It's unlikely your sarge makes his points back clawing down boyz.

I think this line of debate is pointless. Even in your above description of how your army works, the tactical squads are just a tax.

I don't think your list sounds very good. I can tell you that devastator marines and land speeders in 6th edition are both quite bad. Sternguard in pods seem to be being phased out in favor of Sternguard being used in a less brute force manner. I don't think you would beat most of the Ork players I know with your list.

But it really doesn't matter, because we all know that GW is never going to change tactical squads in a meaningful manner. So I guess the only real litmus test is head to head between marine lists build around tac squads and those lists that minimize them at all costs. And also compare those two approaches' records against the field.

After all, you admitted yourself you don't have much of a chance against Triple Riptide. I've beaten that list with my approach, but my success rate is poor. I don't see how adding tacticals to my lists will improve my success rate against triple riptide.

I never said they would.
I already Admited that in your local group my list won't work, but you and a couple of others seem to take it beecouse they don't work tin their envoriment they must Suck Everwhere!
And me and a couple of other keep saying, you are right, but they are working for us.

Because it's easier to get people to agree to buffs for other armies than for nerfs for their own. We can't stuff the Taudar genie back in the bottle without fans of those lists being upset.

I think the above rules proposed by Walrus might be the best yet. Ghetto sternguard ammo would at least give the tactical squad options where they have none now. The one heavy and one special per ten men is a joke as it stands. Your single plasma cannon is not getting you anywhere except against paste eaters who clump up teqs. The rest of the 40K universe is not scared of your plasma cannon.

The 40K universe is at least concerned about mass Kroot snipers.

And I would say there are SOME units worse off, but not as many as I'm sure you would claim. The most obvious example is CSM, because they are mainly marine--, but I'd take plague marines over tacs any day. I just don't think it's clicking with many just how incapable tac marines are for their points. After watching a game that involved the new Tyranid codex, I find myself wishing that tacs were as useful as hormagaunts.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
(...)
To break the stalemate a bit, I'd like to revisit the idea of specialist ammunition we had earlier in the thread. I was thinking, suppose you gave Tactical Squads the following ammo types:

Dragonfire bolt: R24" S4 AP- Ignores Cover Rapid Fire

Hellfire round: R24" S1 AP- Rapid Fire, Poisoned (5+)

Kraken bolt: R30" S4 AP6 Rapid Fire

"Normal" bolt: R24" S4 AP5 Rapid Fire

Rename the Sternguard equivalent ammunition to "Master-crafted X bolt".

This way Tacticals could actually adapt to different targets, choosing whatever ammunition type is better, without stealing all the thunder from other races. Dark Eldar would still do poisoned shooting better, Tau would still have the superior long-range small-arm, and Sternguard would still have better shooting than Tactical Marines.

It'd also open up the possibility for more diversity between the bolter-wielding Codices. Chaos Space Marines would obviously not have access to the same ammunition types as the Imperium, but they'd have their own variations on a similar-yet-different theme. Same with Sisters. Imperial Guard wouldn't get any bolter ammo except for the "normal" bolts, as they're not valuable enough to justify spending the massive resources these bolts cost on.

Yeah, better to break the stalemate.

Your rule works fine, but it is quite complicated, and it is taking the "mojo" out of another unit (one of my favs btw). Special ammo is Sternguard thing.

I will fix the Tactical by making two changes:
1: allowing 10 Marines squads to get items from both the Special and Heavy Weapons lists, instead of one of each. That way they will be highly customizable. I don´t get why vanilla Marines don´t get that.
2: giving them a CCW. They have it in the fluff. And it doesn´t make much sense that they lack it.

About CSM: the same (CCW) and then Legion Traits. That´s what all players miss.
About Sisters: the same (CCW) and then Order Traits.

 da001 wrote:


Your rule works fine, but it is quite complicated, and it is taking the "mojo" out of another unit (one of my favs btw). Special ammo is Sternguard thing.

GK have special ammo. Scout Heavy Bolters have special ammo. Telion has special ammo. Cassius has special ammo. Tycho has special ammo. There's more than Sternguard with special ammo, so it's not unheard of. Plus, Sternguard would still have better ammo, combi-weapons and access to Vengeance Rounds for AP3.

 da001 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
(...)
To break the stalemate a bit, I'd like to revisit the idea of specialist ammunition we had earlier in the thread. I was thinking, suppose you gave Tactical Squads the following ammo types:

Dragonfire bolt: R24" S4 AP- Ignores Cover Rapid Fire

Hellfire round: R24" S1 AP- Rapid Fire, Poisoned (5+)

Kraken bolt: R30" S4 AP6 Rapid Fire

"Normal" bolt: R24" S4 AP5 Rapid Fire

Rename the Sternguard equivalent ammunition to "Master-crafted X bolt".

This way Tacticals could actually adapt to different targets, choosing whatever ammunition type is better, without stealing all the thunder from other races. Dark Eldar would still do poisoned shooting better, Tau would still have the superior long-range small-arm, and Sternguard would still have better shooting than Tactical Marines.

It'd also open up the possibility for more diversity between the bolter-wielding Codices. Chaos Space Marines would obviously not have access to the same ammunition types as the Imperium, but they'd have their own variations on a similar-yet-different theme. Same with Sisters. Imperial Guard wouldn't get any bolter ammo except for the "normal" bolts, as they're not valuable enough to justify spending the massive resources these bolts cost on.

Yeah, better to break the stalemate.

Your rule works fine, but it is quite complicated, and it is taking the "mojo" out of another unit (one of my favs btw). Special ammo is Sternguard thing.

I will fix the Tactical by making two changes:
1: allowing 10 Marines squads to get items from both the Special and Heavy Weapons lists, instead of one of each. That way they will be highly customizable. I don´t get why vanilla Marines don´t get that.
2: giving them a CCW. They have it in the fluff. And it doesn´t make much sense that they lack it.

About CSM: the same (CCW) and then Legion Traits. That´s what all players miss.
About Sisters: the same (CCW) and then Order Traits.

Even this is better than nothing to me. I'm not that greedy. If tacs had that second CC weapon, then when I build a TAC list, I can put in more points to anti-Riptide and anti-Wave Serpent tech and spend less covering my ass against hordes. For all the Space Wolf players out there: you don't know how spoiled you are against Orks, gaunts, and other horde units. You just sit and laugh as they get massacred *on the assault*. How any Space Wolf player has ever lost to Orks is beyond me. Compare this situation to tac marines. 10 attacks. That's all you get when assaulted. Assuming all your guys lived. You are hard pressed to break anything with only 10 swings. Your opponent's lack of ATSKNF means nothing in CC against tacs, because they'll never lose.

Martel732 wrote:
Even this is better than nothing to me. I'm not that greedy. If tacs had that second CC weapon, then when I build a TAC list, I can put in more points to anti-Riptide and anti-Wave Serpent tech and spend less covering my ass against hordes. For all the Space Wolf players out there: you don't know how spoiled you are against Orks, gaunts, and other horde units. You just sit and laugh as they get massacred *on the assault*. How any Space Wolf player has ever lost to Orks is beyond me. Compare this situation to tac marines. 10 attacks. That's all you get when assaulted. Assuming all your guys lived. You are hard pressed to break anything with only 10 swings. Your opponent's lack of ATSKNF means nothing in CC against tacs, because they'll never lose.

As a Space Would player who is protective of my [and yes I said MY] Codex, I would have no issues for Every Marine in power Armor a Close Combat Weapon.

The only issue I have with the Special Ammo for Tacticals is adding all of them for free. Have them as an option say for 1 or 2 point a models.

It's nice to see a consensus on this, double special/heavy and the ccw are good to me as well. I'm iffy on the ammo bit personally, but I wouldn't turn it down.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Even this is better than nothing to me. I'm not that greedy. If tacs had that second CC weapon, then when I build a TAC list, I can put in more points to anti-Riptide and anti-Wave Serpent tech and spend less covering my ass against hordes. For all the Space Wolf players out there: you don't know how spoiled you are against Orks, gaunts, and other horde units. You just sit and laugh as they get massacred *on the assault*. How any Space Wolf player has ever lost to Orks is beyond me. Compare this situation to tac marines. 10 attacks. That's all you get when assaulted. Assuming all your guys lived. You are hard pressed to break anything with only 10 swings. Your opponent's lack of ATSKNF means nothing in CC against tacs, because they'll never lose.

As a Space Would player who is protective of my [and yes I said MY] Codex, I would have no issues for Every Marine in power Armor a Close Combat Weapon.

The only issue I have with the Special Ammo for Tacticals is adding all of them for free. Have them as an option say for 1 or 2 point a models.

Counter attack for free is still extremely dubious, but the Grey Hunters would no longer be insanely better than tacs, just substantially better. I'd pay 2 points for the special ammo. It's worth it to have a unit in the troop slot that can hurt MCs.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Even this is better than nothing to me. I'm not that greedy. If tacs had that second CC weapon, then when I build a TAC list, I can put in more points to anti-Riptide and anti-Wave Serpent tech and spend less covering my ass against hordes. For all the Space Wolf players out there: you don't know how spoiled you are against Orks, gaunts, and other horde units. You just sit and laugh as they get massacred *on the assault*. How any Space Wolf player has ever lost to Orks is beyond me. Compare this situation to tac marines. 10 attacks. That's all you get when assaulted. Assuming all your guys lived. You are hard pressed to break anything with only 10 swings. Your opponent's lack of ATSKNF means nothing in CC against tacs, because they'll never lose.

As a Space Would player who is protective of my [and yes I said MY] Codex, I would have no issues for Every Marine in power Armor a Close Combat Weapon.

The only issue I have with the Special Ammo for Tacticals is adding all of them for free. Have them as an option say for 1 or 2 point a models.

Counter attack for free is still extremely dubious, but the Grey Hunters would no longer be insanely better than tacs, just substantially better. I'd pay 2 points for the special ammo. It's worth it to have a unit in the troop slot that can hurt MCs.

Counter Attack should stay a Space Wolf thing. Besides then all they would be is funny named Tacticals.
Now a Character that gave them Counter Attack...

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Even this is better than nothing to me. I'm not that greedy. If tacs had that second CC weapon, then when I build a TAC list, I can put in more points to anti-Riptide and anti-Wave Serpent tech and spend less covering my ass against hordes. For all the Space Wolf players out there: you don't know how spoiled you are against Orks, gaunts, and other horde units. You just sit and laugh as they get massacred *on the assault*. How any Space Wolf player has ever lost to Orks is beyond me. Compare this situation to tac marines. 10 attacks. That's all you get when assaulted. Assuming all your guys lived. You are hard pressed to break anything with only 10 swings. Your opponent's lack of ATSKNF means nothing in CC against tacs, because they'll never lose.

As a Space Would player who is protective of my [and yes I said MY] Codex, I would have no issues for Every Marine in power Armor a Close Combat Weapon.

The only issue I have with the Special Ammo for Tacticals is adding all of them for free. Have them as an option say for 1 or 2 point a models.

Counter attack for free is still extremely dubious, but the Grey Hunters would no longer be insanely better than tacs, just substantially better. I'd pay 2 points for the special ammo. It's worth it to have a unit in the troop slot that can hurt MCs.

Counter Attack should stay a Space Wolf thing. Besides then all they would be is funny named Tacticals.
Now a Character that gave them Counter Attack...

I have no problem with Grey Hunters being different and better than tactical marines. In fact, I'd even let them keep their pricing, especially in 6th edition. Your counterattack only matters in CCs where you have a chance to begin with, and that doesn't happen that often unfortunately in competitive play.