Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey Dakka,

A friend has decided he would like to play a traitor legion back in the day. Has anyone had any experience playing 30k armies against 40k armies?

It doesn't need to be perfectly balanced, what Dex is?

Thanks

Depends on the army. 30K armies don't do well against Tau or Eldar (But who does?) and are okay against the rest.

The thing is.... Its two whole diffrent games!

It pretty much does work. It has been suggested by Alan Bligh that a good way of doing this is having the 40k Army use the Crusade Army List Force Org Chart.

However, they are not INTENDED to work together. Also I would add that 30k forces in the HH books are intended to be played at 2000 points or higher.

 phatonic wrote:
The thing is.... Its two whole diffrent games!

With the exact same system between them. There's nothing different when it comes down to rules and that's all that matters.

Played against one the other day. I only had one model left at the end of the game. But still won as that single strike marine happened to be holding onto the relic.

So speaking from experience I would say go for it but make a few rules. One is the force Org. Make him take a normal 40k foc. The other is ban the moritat. This thing killed a dreadknight in one turn with 14 plasma hits. I was not happy by this and with 2+ save and jump pack was able to stay away from charges and stay alive.

That single model has really made me think twice before I want to play a list with forge world again.

 tuiman wrote:
Played against one the other day. I only had one model left at the end of the game. But still won as that single strike marine happened to be holding onto the relic.

So speaking from experience I would say go for it but make a few rules. One is the force Org. Make him take a normal 40k foc. The other is ban the moritat. This thing killed a dreadknight in one turn with 14 plasma hits. I was not happy by this and with 2+ save and jump pack was able to stay away from charges and stay alive.

That single model has really made me think twice before I want to play a list with forge world again.

You didn't have anything that could kill a T4/W2 model at 12" range? And couldn't deal with something that couldn't fire every other turn nor assault, that can only join one specific set of units? And that at the cost level you just mentioned costs MORE then a bare kit dreadknight?

Honestly it just sounds like your list was pretty poor.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 tuiman wrote:
Played against one the other day. I only had one model left at the end of the game. But still won as that single strike marine happened to be holding onto the relic.

So speaking from experience I would say go for it but make a few rules. One is the force Org. Make him take a normal 40k foc. The other is ban the moritat. This thing killed a dreadknight in one turn with 14 plasma hits. I was not happy by this and with 2+ save and jump pack was able to stay away from charges and stay alive.

That single model has really made me think twice before I want to play a list with forge world again.

You didn't have anything that could kill a T4/W2 model at 12" range? And couldn't deal with something that couldn't fire every other turn nor assault, that can only join one specific set of units? And that at the cost level you just mentioned costs MORE then a bare kit dreadknight?

Honestly it just sounds like your list was pretty poor.

I'm going to have to agree here.

GK have an over abundance of ways, to kill the Moritat.

Also, playing two different game systems, that FW has explicitly said, are not meant to play together, makes you think twice about playing a Forgeworld list again? That's just silly.

Played against a Legio Cybernetica list, with 18 models total.

I seized the initiative with my daemons, rushed forward and basically massacred him. He did manage to down my Bloodthirster in a single volley of fire, but hey..

His firepower was impressive but he lacked in the CC department.

Depends if your hq is a primarch I suppose, or the meq 30k army.

EyeOfDC wrote:
Depends if your hq is a primarch I suppose, or the meq 30k army.

Honestly, primarchs are no worse than what you can do in normal 40k these days. Screamerstar, Warhound/Revenant titans, etc, are just as bad, if not worse. Just don't make up some kind of weird house rule where primarchs are legal but other lords of war options aren't.

H'mm...that's very true..

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 tuiman wrote:
Played against one the other day. I only had one model left at the end of the game. But still won as that single strike marine happened to be holding onto the relic.

So speaking from experience I would say go for it but make a few rules. One is the force Org. Make him take a normal 40k foc. The other is ban the moritat. This thing killed a dreadknight in one turn with 14 plasma hits. I was not happy by this and with 2+ save and jump pack was able to stay away from charges and stay alive.

That single model has really made me think twice before I want to play a list with forge world again.

You didn't have anything that could kill a T4/W2 model at 12" range? And couldn't deal with something that couldn't fire every other turn nor assault, that can only join one specific set of units? And that at the cost level you just mentioned costs MORE then a bare kit dreadknight?

Honestly it just sounds like your list was pretty poor.

My opponent never made it clear that it couldn't shoot or assault afterwards even though I asked about his heresy list and what most things do. Maybe it's my fault for not taking time to read the 30k rules. But I have no access to the book and the last thing I want to do is sit down and read through every single unit, wargear and special rules right before a game.

I was playing a mordrak style rush list which I have never played before but is quite competitive as far as the gk codex goes these days. But thanks for assuming it was a bad list.

Incinerator s6 ap4
Storm bolter with psybolt s5 ap5
Psycannon s7 ap4

As per most gk armies we have little access to ap2 or better weapons. We rely on rending psycannon to do tbe work. But when your opponent has dreads or vindicators that you are able to shunt behind and attack rear Armour your not going to be wasting them on one model. Also having the jet pack made it easy for him to hide behind cover. Survive my initial strike then spring out and kill something.

Against a gun line army then sure it's going to not do much but if you play an army that has to be close to be effective so it has a chance to shoot then it will do an insane amount of damage for what it really should be doing. Also don't get my started on using it with a divination Libby.

Also find me one player that uses a knight with not a single upgrade. To be useful its going to be 200-250 points.

Edit for spelling

 tuiman wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 tuiman wrote:
Played against one the other day. I only had one model left at the end of the game. But still won as that single strike marine happened to be holding onto the relic.

So speaking from experience I would say go for it but make a few rules. One is the force Org. Make him take a normal 40k foc. The other is ban the moritat. This thing killed a dreadknight in one turn with 14 plasma hits. I was not happy by this and with 2+ save and jump pack was able to stay away from charges and stay alive.

That single model has really made me think twice before I want to play a list with forge world again.

You didn't have anything that could kill a T4/W2 model at 12" range? And couldn't deal with something that couldn't fire every other turn nor assault, that can only join one specific set of units? And that at the cost level you just mentioned costs MORE then a bare kit dreadknight?

Honestly it just sounds like your list was pretty poor.

My opponent never made it clear that it couldn't shoot or assault afterwards even though I asked about his heresy list and what most things do. Maybe it's my fault for not taking time to read the 30k rules. But I have no access to the book and the last thing I want to do is sit down and read through every single unit, wargear and special rules right before a game.

I was playing a mordrak style rush list which I have never played before but is quite competitive as far as the gk codex goes these days. But thanks for assuming it was a bad list.

Incinerator s6 ap4
Storm bolter with psybolt s5 ap5
Psycannon s7 ap4

As per most gk armies we have little access to ap2 or better weapons. We rely on rending psycannon to do tbe work. But when your opponent has dreads or vindicators that you are able to shunt behind and attack rear Armour your not going to be wasting them on one model. Also having the jet pack made it easy for him to hide behind cover. Survive my initial strike then spring out and kill something.

Against a gun line army then sure it's going to not do much but if you play an army that has to be close to be effective so it has a chance to shoot then it will do an insane amount of damage for what it really should be doing. Also don't get my started on using it with a divination Libby.

Also find me one player that uses a knight with not a single upgrade. To be useful its going to be 200-250 points.

Edit for spelling

Yes, this still sounds like you were unprepared, and got trounced. Understanding an opponents army, and target priority is part of playing effectively. It is certainly not forgeworlds fault.

My opponent never made it clear that it couldn't shoot or assault afterwards even though I asked about his heresy list and what most things do. Maybe it's my fault for not taking time to read the 30k rules. But I have no access to the book and the last thing I want to do is sit down and read through every single unit, wargear and special rules right before a game.

Then the least you can do is figure out what he is taking, and look those up. Being unprepared is your issue, not your opponents.

I was playing a mordrak style rush list which I have never played before but is quite competitive as far as the gk codex goes these days. But thanks for assuming it was a bad list.

I've never honestly heard of Mordrak rush being competitive so that might be my confusion or I'm just not sure what the GK's are up to, last I checked the main competitive was Hench spam. I just remember Mordrak being the fluffy choice because he wasn't that effective in many situations.

As per most gk armies we have little access to ap2 or better weapons. We rely on rending psycannon to do tbe work. But when your opponent has dreads or vindicators that you are able to shunt behind and attack rear Armour your not going to be wasting them on one model. Also having the jet pack made it easy for him to hide behind cover. Survive my initial strike then spring out and kill something.

That single model has really made me think twice before I want to play a list with forge world again.

If that model is a glass cannon who cannot take a hit, but can deal good damage, you'll want to waste a bit of firepower to deal with it. That's a bad tactical mistake to leave something that can deal with your list effectively. I've stopped using him in my own 30k Lists because people learned his tricks, and just killed him without letting him deal.

Against a gun line army then sure it's going to not do much but if you play an army that has to be close to be effective so it has a chance to shoot then it will do an insane amount of damage for what it really should be doing. Also don't get my started on using it with a divination Libby.

It's still a 12" range Get's Hot! shooter, 24" max but that involves it moving out of cover since it's gotta see it's target to do things, and then with a Div Libby it's now a 200+ two model that you could easily splat it.

As Sasori has said, you didn't look at your opponents tools and so you got trounced when it came down to target Prioritization. Dread's don't even do as much damage as the Moritat, and die easier and by dealing with them you left yourself vulnerable.

As far as I am aware you are forbidden from presciencing a Moriat. Aside from that , it really shouldn't be an issue, if it's taking out a Dreadknight a turn you ought to deal with it pretty quickly - It's not a waste of firepower if it's doing a number on your army.

12" means nothing when you play an army that equally relys on short range and assault.

As per my original post. I still won the game even with only a single model alive at the end of the game. So my hate of the moritat is not from losing the game.

I play 40k regularly and have owned a lot of the codexs and pretty much know most armies. Im sorry that I can't afford to spend a lot of money on forge world imperial Armour or heresy books so I learn all the rules. I turn up for a casual game with a mate and when I get there he says he will play a heresy list. Something I know nothing about. I did look through the rules but in a 2k game im not going to remember everything.

So yes you can say I was un prepared and paid for it. Im sorry for being able to afford the heresy books and know all there rules. I have was just trying to be nice and let the guy play a heresy army. Im not blaming forge world but it's the fact that people who play it and don't tell you all the tricks before it starts that give me this view.

To stop derailing this thread. To the op. Yes you can play 30k vs 40k if you really want to. Just be aware that they are technically not designed to be used together and try and find a copy of the rules for you to read before and know what everything does.

And make sure to use the up to date FAQ rules!

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/B/Betrayal_FAQ_Errata_v.2.pdf

Never go without em.

You can, but not 'out of the box' either you are going to have to use his FOC or he will have to use yours, especially in regards to Lords of War, because the 30k lords of war are more restricted than 40k, and even then, the games are balanced around pretty different meta's, I don't know that you'll be able to hold a fair fight against one another.

It usually works really well for the 30k guy....

As stated above, they are not designed to work together (silly gw).

I have the 30k books, and they are very cool...but its pretty obvious if you look at it objectively.

If you have a 30k player who thinks they are fair, offer to swap lists....then see what he thinks....I have found this changes things dramatically.

davethepak wrote:
It usually works really well for the 30k guy....

As stated above, they are not designed to work together (silly gw).

I have the 30k books, and they are very cool...but its pretty obvious if you look at it objectively.

If you have a 30k player who thinks they are fair, offer to swap lists....then see what he thinks....I have found this changes things dramatically.

Our club has quite a few players, it's just a normal list with some fancier gear, with the more unique Mechanicus on the side.

As I said, they still can't stand up to Daemons, Eldar, Tau, and really have some issues with some lists, more fun to deal with then Riptides, jetseer/wave, and invulnerable daemons though.

Didn’t the update say it could be used, and in lower point games you are supposed to use the 40k chart anyways. The disadvantage falls on the Heresy player not the 40k player. Heresy pays a prime for ability’s that 40k does not (stubborn was used in the reference). I think they work well together and make for a really interesting narrative game (when its non-space marines anyways, thou old school chapters Vs. new school ones is kind of neat, not fluffy but neat) the biggest thing I notice about 30k vs.40k is the mindset of the players, I been playing using borrowed books, 40k mini's, and lots of proxies and it’s been the best games of my life. But 40k tends to be more WAAC in my area where 30k is have fun, and help each other remember all the rules and what not. So my .02 I think that they use the same system and use the same scale, and there’s no reason not to use them agents each other. And a note on FOC there is no double FOC in 30k so once you get over 2k points it is still fair in my view, especially with Lords of War being in 40k.

*rant over*

You could fluff it up so the 40k marines have looked into the 30k past and been trapped there bya greater demon of tzeentch.

Yah I defiantly think that a little bit of imagination can make it work and I would love to see Iron hands old Vs. new like the new heavy bionic Vs. the old less heavy bionic (don’t need a fluff flame war just an observation)
but my meaning was that it take a little imagining to make that work (fluff wise) everything else just works.

30K works with 40k. If anyone tells you how it's OP and not fair, point them in the direction of Tau and Eldar.

30K armies fit really easily into 40k. They have their own set of strength and weaknesses that any player has to identify. I would not call them OP especially when you compare them to what is available in 40k. Yes, the Mortrait is OP but you are only ever going to face 1, maybe 2 at a time in an army. But you compare that to say, 3 helldrakes, necron airforce, vendetta spam, Eldar Seer council, Deamon Flying Circus, 2++ rerollable, screamerstar, triple riptides, etc... and 30k looks rather balanced.

Just some General Notes:
Units are generally more expensive but are meant to be taken in large units.
ATSKNF doesn't exist so the units can be swept if they lose combat. Nothing says "Sad Panda" like losing a whole unit of terminators to one poor combat.
Very few things have fearless and stubborn. Units can break pretty easily.
There are a lot of new things so make sure you ask questions but that goes to all codexes, 30k and 40k. I've lost because my opponent forgot to mention a rule or ability.

Just use the normal 40k FOC and treat it like any other codex. It really isn't that bad. But if someone is power gaming with a 30k army then don't play them. Hate the player before the codex. That's what my meta did to a guy who played deamon flying circus, everyone just stopped playing him because it wasn't fun.

I almost forgot to mention. Because ATSKNF doesn't exist in 30k, the best thing to do is get them into CC and sweep them. I lost a 400+ pt unit of Mechanicus Thallax Cohort to a sisters of battle squad because I lot combat.

I've actually been thinking really ahrd about running a Legio Cybernetica list. Part of their weakness is they don't have a l;ot of options, and some of their really good ones are just oh my god expensive. 900 points for ten Secutors with 2x Fusils? Fun to look at, but I would hate to lose it, sinc you just dropped half your army right there.

Also, no real fast attack choices. You can have Sentry Guns or Air Support. Pick one. Neither one really seems super awesome. Another issue is that I've read some people taking the stance that Ordo Reductor and Legio Cybernetica are separate lists, so no Mechanicum Land Raider for your Thallax if you play the Legio list. It's one reason I'm tempted to rely on Castellax, and Adsecularis Thralls for my troops picks.

Also also, because I have a tendency to ramble, elites choices. I can't really see any reason for a person to take a Enginseer Auxilia when they have access to no vehicles. Unless you add in a Reductor AD, which might actually go quite a ways towards making this list a bit better.

 shamroll wrote:


Just use the normal 40k FOC and treat it like any other codex.

Go the other direction - have both armies use the 30k Crusader FOC.

MIni MIehm wrote:
I've actually been thinking really ahrd about running a Legio Cybernetica list. Part of their weakness is they don't have a l;ot of options, and some of their really good ones are just oh my god expensive. 900 points for ten Secutors with 2x Fusils? Fun to look at, but I would hate to lose it, sinc you just dropped half your army right there.

Also, no real fast attack choices. You can have Sentry Guns or Air Support. Pick one. Neither one really seems super awesome. Another issue is that I've read some people taking the stance that Ordo Reductor and Legio Cybernetica are separate lists, so no Mechanicum Land Raider for your Thallax if you play the Legio list. It's one reason I'm tempted to rely on Castellax, and Adsecularis Thralls for my troops picks.

Also also, because I have a tendency to ramble, elites choices. I can't really see any reason for a person to take a Enginseer Auxilia when they have access to no vehicles. Unless you add in a Reductor AD, which might actually go quite a ways towards making this list a bit better.

If you take Ferrox on the Thrallax they become Fast Attack.

Also forgeworld themselves said they are separate lists, but they can be allied.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

MIni MIehm wrote:
I've actually been thinking really ahrd about running a Legio Cybernetica list. Part of their weakness is they don't have a l;ot of options, and some of their really good ones are just oh my god expensive. 900 points for ten Secutors with 2x Fusils? Fun to look at, but I would hate to lose it, sinc you just dropped half your army right there.

Also, no real fast attack choices. You can have Sentry Guns or Air Support. Pick one. Neither one really seems super awesome. Another issue is that I've read some people taking the stance that Ordo Reductor and Legio Cybernetica are separate lists, so no Mechanicum Land Raider for your Thallax if you play the Legio list. It's one reason I'm tempted to rely on Castellax, and Adsecularis Thralls for my troops picks.

Also also, because I have a tendency to ramble, elites choices. I can't really see any reason for a person to take a Enginseer Auxilia when they have access to no vehicles. Unless you add in a Reductor AD, which might actually go quite a ways towards making this list a bit better.

If you take Ferrox on the Thrallax they become Fast Attack.

Also forgeworld themselves said they are separate lists, but they can be allied.

Yeah, but Thallax are fairly mediocre troops anyway, from what I can tell. The drop in cover saves is nice, but I feel like the weapons are too short ranged, and the assault isn't quite good enough to make up for their weaknesses. I'm really waiting for more stuff to be added to the Cybernetica list or the Reductor list in the next Heresy book, but I have no idea when we're going to get it, or what it's going to be.