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I was playing a friendly game today and this came up:

My CSM squad was behind a ruined wall (pretty much just a straight line wall) and where about to be charged by my buddies DA company vet squad. I rolled for my overwatch and did nothing, and then he rolled for his charge.

Now other then this one wall which my CSM are taking cover behind the area is completely clear of any terrain. My gut instinct was that my buddy needed to roll 3D6 and take the two lowest for his charge distance (as per the BRB page 22) because he would have to pass over the wall to get to my CSM.

However he pointed out that technically because the 2 closest CSM where in base contact he would not need to clear the wall to be in base contact (as per the barricade and walls rules BRB page 104) and could roll 2D6 instead. This was the crucial point of the game (if this charge succeeded he would probably go on to win the game, however if it failed I would probably win) so there was a little debate. In the end we went with my gut feeling of the 3D6, purely because if either of us had thought of this we would both keeping our models slightly off base contact and what not, which is a little silly for a fun game.

That said I was wondering if we did play it out the right way or if he was in fact correct and he should only roll a 2D6 for that charge move?

TD;LR: Model charges a model in base contact with a wall. 3D6 or 2D6?

 captsabre wrote:
TD;LR: Model charges a model in base contact with a wall. 3D6 or 2D6?

By RAW at the moment, it would be 2D6, as you only have to move up to the barricade, not over it.

Logically it probably should be 3D6, as you would still be trying to move into base contact with the enemy, you're just allowed to stop at the barricade and call it close enough. But that's not what the rules actually call for.

Ah I see!

So im guessing by RAW if I moved my models just slightly away from the wall, so just off base contact, my opponent would have to clear the wall so roll 3D6?

Yes. And it likely wouldn't affect cover at all.
Which is why that rule is one of the dumbest in the book.
They already have WMS to make sure you can put the models on either side of the wall instead of on top of it. No reason for this useless rule.

Yeah it is pretty silly. Thanks for the help guys!

 captsabre wrote:
Ah I see!

So im guessing by RAW if I moved my models just slightly away from the wall, so just off base contact, my opponent would have to clear the wall so roll 3D6?

That is indeed the tactic: Move back the turn before they attack.
However!
On that specific turn of shooting, the enemy would get a 4+ cover from all your shots as you are no longer "at the barricade" and it is now terrain between you and the enemy.

3D6 charge instead of 2D6, OR give enemy cover from your shots, up to you! =)

 BlackTalos wrote:

 captsabre wrote:
Ah I see!

So im guessing by RAW if I moved my models just slightly away from the wall, so just off base contact, my opponent would have to clear the wall so roll 3D6?

That is indeed the tactic: Move back the turn before they attack.
However!
On that specific turn of shooting, the enemy would get a 4+ cover from all your shots as you are no longer "at the barricade" and it is now terrain between you and the enemy.

3D6 charge instead of 2D6, OR give enemy cover from your shots, up to you! =)

only if True Line of Sight obscured the enemy models. There is no rule for shots going over cover grant cover saves, with the exception of forest terrain.

If he backed up 1/2 an inch, and the wall did not hide the enemy, no cover save is given.

 BlackTalos wrote:

On that specific turn of shooting, the enemy would get a 4+ cover from all your shots as you are no longer "at the barricade" and it is now terrain between you and the enemy

There is no such rule.

The enemy would only receive a cover save if they were sufficiently obscured by the wall. Being up against the barricade or not makes no difference to how LOS and cover work.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 captsabre wrote:
Ah I see!

So im guessing by RAW if I moved my models just slightly away from the wall, so just off base contact, my opponent would have to clear the wall so roll 3D6?

That is indeed the tactic: Move back the turn before they attack.
However!
On that specific turn of shooting, the enemy would get a 4+ cover from all your shots as you are no longer "at the barricade" and it is now terrain between you and the enemy.

3D6 charge instead of 2D6, OR give enemy cover from your shots, up to you! =)

only if True Line of Sight obscured the enemy models. There is no rule for shots going over cover grant cover saves, with the exception of forest terrain.

If he backed up 1/2 an inch, and the wall did not hide the enemy, no cover save is given.

As in, when you back off from the line, on flat ground, the enemy gets the same cover you get from them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

On that specific turn of shooting, the enemy would get a 4+ cover from all your shots as you are no longer "at the barricade" and it is now terrain between you and the enemy

There is no such rule.

The enemy would only receive a cover save if they were sufficiently obscured by the wall. Being up against the barricade or not makes no difference to how LOS and cover work.

Of course applying LOS 25% obscured by the barricade.

 BlackTalos wrote:

As in, when you back off from the line, on flat ground, the enemy gets the same cover you get from them.

This is not automatically the case. Due to TLOS, it is entirely possible for one unit to be in cover from the other's perspective, while on the inverse the other unit is not obscured.

There is also no exception to the cover rules for being up against a wall. Even if you are in base contact with the wall, the enemy will get a cover save if the wall obscures your LOS.

 captsabre wrote:
So im guessing by RAW if I moved my models just slightly away from the wall, so just off base contact, my opponent would have to clear the wall so roll 3D6?

Well, not quite. Your opponent would have to roll 3D6 and drop the highest for moving through difficult terrain, but the charge would automatically fail because the charging model can't get into base contact. If your models are even 0.000000000000001" out of base contact with the wall (but not so far away that a model can stand between them and the wall) then the "opposite sides of a wall" rule does not apply and the charge fails. The rule seems to assume either that both players really love melee combat and want to get into the fight ASAP regardless of those pesky walls, or that everyone will "be reasonable" and allow the charge to succeed despite clear rules stating that it fails.

Yes, this makes an ADL a near-perfect defense against assault units as long as you can prevent them from going around to the side or shooting a hole in your squad to place the initial charger.

rigeld2 wrote:
They already have WMS to make sure you can put the models on either side of the wall instead of on top of it. No reason for this useless rule.

WMS wouldn't apply here. It would allow you to count the models as being on top of the wall (where they can be placed, but it would be very difficult to keep them balanced properly), but that wouldn't bring them into base contact. The "opposite sides of a wall" rule is necessary to make the charge possible at all, the only problem with it is that it should have applied if the defending models are within X" of the wall and not required them to be in base contact.

Peregrine,
I do see the point as the rule does call for base to base contact. Any models placed on top of the wall would not be able to touch base to base with the model, and they would not be able to move through the model or be placed somehow overlapping allow by Wobbly Model Syndrome so they must be placed on top of the wall using this rule. They might be touching base to the enemies head or base to the enemy body but this is not base to the enemies base. Once more we encounter the phenomenon of Game Workshop rules being written without the third dimension in mind!

... Though there is some debate if you can use wobbly model syndrome to place the model clipping through terrain ...

Lot's of hokiness going on here.

Example enemy models are 6" apart with a 1" wall between them and SOME of the enemy models are in base contact with the wall.

Now the rules say if a model charges through difficult terrain however it should be IF it might charge through difficult terrain.

First the assault distance rolled has to be enough to reach the model. So you would move initial charger.
The next model MUST get B2B with a unengaged enemy model IF possible.

So say he's got 1 guy touching the wall, and the next is 1/2" back from the wall.

Your #2 guy MUST try to get into base contact with the guy 1/2" back from the wall. He cannot just choose to not. If he rolls enough range to reach he would therefore be crossing the wall to reach him.

Which requires a difficult terrain roll.

So the only time really you would not roll difficult terrain would be when...
1. He has almost an equal number of models all in B2B with the wall as you have chargers. IE they can all get in B2B with the wall, and within 2" of an unengaged enemy model ALSO in B2B with the wall.

2. He has a model in B2B with the wall and you only have 1 charger.

3. Even with a maximum charge roll of 12" only 1 model could possible get in B2B contact. The rest at best could get to within 2" of an enemy models he was in B2B with or not reach combat range at all. IE half your guys can't fight because they're strung out in a line.

Correction, as far as RAW, you do not roll difficult terrain unless one of your models must pass through difficult terrain. This may end up with in a bizarre scenario where you don't have to roll for charging through difficult terrain until you roll your charge range. I the situation you described a result 5" might be enough to get your initial charger into base contact with the wall(and therefore into B2B) but may not be enough to cause your other models to even make it to the wall. In that case no difficult terrain must be crossed. If the result is 10", you'd then move the initial charger into base contact with the wall but then you definitely must cross difficult terrain with you other models and at that point the BRB kindly informs you 'oh, you need to roll for charging over difficult terrain. That's 3d6 drop the highest, not that 2d6 you already rolled.'

At that point you need to roll charging difficult terrain and determine a new charge range. You only do this up front when the initial charger is going to have to pass through difficult terrain. It's weird but that's what they wrote.

Also remember you choose the order the rest of your models move in. depending on the order you choose and the distance you roll you can manipulate these mandatory movements somewhat.

 Abandon wrote:
This may end up with in a bizarre scenario where you don't have to roll for charging through difficult terrain until you roll your charge range.

No it can't, because the picture later on the page explains exactly how it works. You must draw the path between each charging model and its target before moving any models or making any rolls, and then if any of the paths cross difficult terrain you must follow the rules for charging through difficult terrain. If you fail to make it to the difficult terrain because of a bad charge range roll then you just don't get to move far enough but the result of the roll still stands.

No the assault rules say the distance rolled must be the distance to the enemy model.

IE he's 5" from the wall, and 6" from an enemy model in B2B with the wall. He needs a 6" charge otherwise it's a failed charge. IE he has to roll high enough to reach the model not the wall.
The charge rules for determining a successful charge do not mention B2B at all.

Second it says if ANY model would have to cross difficult terrain.

Pg. 21 BRB under moving charging models. Charging units must attempt to engage as many enemy models as possible.

Must attempt. Meaning if there is a guy 1/2" back from the wall, and 2 guys touching the wall. You have 3 guys charging. 1 of them MUST attempt to reach the 3rd man.

It even says "No holding back or trying to avoid terrain."

Since you must try to engage as many enemy models in the unit as possible, and to do so would involved crossing difficult terrain.

You must roll difficult terrain. You cannot simply roll full charge and then elect to have all of them stop at the wall.

And you definitely can't roll full charge, and then if you would actually wind up crossing difficult terrain re-roll the charge.

Mind = Blown

After talking to my buddy about it, we figured that the way we played it was a fair outcome for both of us. By rolling 3D6 but only having to reach the wall to be on base contact worked fine for us.

On a side note, because we left the game set up with the unit in question still in the same position as it was charged, it turns out they where slightly of base contact anyways. Heh.

So yeah, even if its not the RAW, we worked it out for the best of both of us, as my buddy would have needed to get over the wall it instead of bass contact, it would have added an extra inch in effect anyway.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
This may end up with in a bizarre scenario where you don't have to roll for charging through difficult terrain until you roll your charge range.

No it can't, because the picture later on the page explains exactly how it works. You must draw the path between each charging model and its target before moving any models or making any rolls, and then if any of the paths cross difficult terrain you must follow the rules for charging through difficult terrain. If you fail to make it to the difficult terrain because of a bad charge range roll then you just don't get to move far enough but the result of the roll still stands.

In the depiction those models will, without question, have to move through difficult terrain even on a minimum charge range roll. That is not the described scenario and to the letter of the text charging through difficult terrain is not something that needs to be rolled for until you find that a model must charge through difficult terrain.

 Abandon wrote:
In the depiction those models will, without question, have to move through difficult terrain even on a minimum charge range roll. That is not the described scenario and to the letter of the text charging through difficult terrain is not something that needs to be rolled for until you find that a model must charge through difficult terrain.

But that's not the point. That picture very clearly shows that you draw a line between each model and its intended charge target, and if any of those lines go through difficult terrain the entire unit has to roll for difficult terrain. You do this before any charge distances are rolled or models are moved.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
In the depiction those models will, without question, have to move through difficult terrain even on a minimum charge range roll. That is not the described scenario and to the letter of the text charging through difficult terrain is not something that needs to be rolled for until you find that a model must charge through difficult terrain.

But that's not the point. That picture very clearly shows that you draw a line between each model and its intended charge target, and if any of those lines go through difficult terrain the entire unit has to roll for difficult terrain. You do this before any charge distances are rolled or models are moved.

The picture is not a rule. No rule tells you to draw lines(excepting LOS). If you look at the rules as they are written you'll realize it is only demonstrating a situation where one or more of your models must move through difficult terrain. That does not mean that you must roll for it when one or more models might have to cross difficult terrain. You don't always know that until you roll your charge range and start moving your models.

Example:
If the enemy unit is 8 inches away and the path between your unit and them is open ground. On either side of the enemy unit though there is difficult terrain. You declare you charge, overwatch misses all shots so you go to roll your charge range.
If you roll an 8 or 9 then you can only make base contact with a few models in the front and cross no difficult terrain.
If you roll 10, 11 or 12 then members of your unit, after the first few models make base contact directly with the front model, must start moving around to the sides of the enemy unit and through difficult terrain.

Now do you initially roll for charging through difficult terrain be cause you might need to move through it? No. Even drawing little lines will tell you that. So you roll normal charge distance and come up with 11 inches of charge move. You move your first few models so all the front models in the enemy unit are engaged in base contact. Now several unmoved models in your charging unit can make base contact with the units flanks but you must move through difficult terrain to do so ...and you must do so. Now the BRB tells you you must roll difficult terrain and determine your charge range again...

It's not when you might have to move through difficult terrain, it's when you must.
Do you disagree and why?

 Abandon wrote:
Do you disagree and why?

Because the rules clearly tell you to determine the path for each model before rolling any charge distances or moving any models, and impose the difficult terrain penalty if any model's path would go through difficult terrain. And because the rules tell you to roll for charge range once and only once, and provide no support for your idea that you roll for charge range, resolve overwatch, move some models, and then roll charge range again to see if you successfully charge or not. You're talking about the absurd situation where you can attempt a charge, succeed and move half the models in your unit, then realize that you actually failed the charge and have to move everything back.

 Peregrine wrote:
actually failed the charge and have to move everything back.

It's not that absurd - happens to me about every other game. Only with my gants, but still.

rigeld2 wrote:
It's not that absurd - happens to me about every other game. Only with my gants, but still.

So where are the rules that handle succeeding with a charge, moving models into base contact, rolling a new distance, and then moving everything back? Because I don't remember seeing anything about being allowed to roll charge distance more than once, or moving models back to being kind of in the same spot that they started from. In fact the rules seem pretty clear that once you successfully move the initial charging model into base contact any models that fail to charge are simply out of range to attack until they pile in closer.

 Peregrine wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's not that absurd - happens to me about every other game. Only with my gants, but still.

So where are the rules that handle succeeding with a charge, moving models into base contact, rolling a new distance, and then moving everything back? Because I don't remember seeing anything about being allowed to roll charge distance more than once, or moving models back to being kind of in the same spot that they started from. In fact the rules seem pretty clear that once you successfully move the initial charging model into base contact any models that fail to charge are simply out of range to attack until they pile in closer.

FYI, it hasn't happened to me in a tournament yet, because I'm far more careful with my assaults there.
But in friendlies HIPI was to roll the extra die and if that still didn't help. Move the 1-2 models I had already moved back.
Near zero hassle, as close to RAW as we wanted to play right then.

Edit: my point was that it isn't an absurd example where rolling above a 9 would force you to move through terrain, but under a 9 would be fine.

rigeld2 wrote:
Edit: my point was that it isn't an absurd example where rolling above a 9 would force you to move through terrain, but under a 9 would be fine.

But, like I said, there's no "if you roll short enough you're fine". You draw the line from each model to its goal, and the unit rolls for difficult terrain if any of those lines crosses difficult terrain at any point. A model failing to reach its goal just means that it didn't roll well enough, it doesn't change the model's intended path. It's just like how having difficult terrain in front of the entire unit doesn't place it into some impossible to resolve circle where you roll 9" and make the charge, but you had to go through difficult terrain so you suffer the penalty and only charge 2", but that doesn't take you into the terrain so there's no penalty and you're back to 9", but that's a penalty and back to 2", and so on with no possible resolution.

And there's certainly no rule that allows you to roll for charge distance, do some stuff and see what happens, and then go back and re-roll it and change the outcome. Charge distance is a one-time roll.

 Peregrine wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Edit: my point was that it isn't an absurd example where rolling above a 9 would force you to move through terrain, but under a 9 would be fine.

But, like I said, there's no "if you roll short enough you're fine". You draw the line from each model to its goal, and the unit rolls for difficult terrain if any of those lines crosses difficult terrain at any point. A model failing to reach its goal just means that it didn't roll well enough, it doesn't change the model's intended path. It's just like how having difficult terrain in front of the entire unit doesn't place it into some impossible to resolve circle where you roll 9" and make the charge, but you had to go through difficult terrain so you suffer the penalty and only charge 2", but that doesn't take you into the terrain so there's no penalty and you're back to 9", but that's a penalty and back to 2", and so on with no possible resolution.

And there's certainly no rule that allows you to roll for charge distance, do some stuff and see what happens, and then go back and re-roll it and change the outcome. Charge distance is a one-time roll.

Indeed, but i understand Rigeld2's position:

You have rolle 2 Dice, but realise you need 3 so roll the 3rd later. Definitely completely out of RaW but a quick way to solve an issue.
We usually find out about if we need the 3rd Dice BEFORE models are moved, but i can easily see it happening.

Have personally been in positions where Whole squads move back because the 1st guy was actually dead. Breaking RaW, yes, but acceptable in friendlies?

 Peregrine wrote:

Because the rules clearly tell you to determine the path for each model before rolling any charge distances or moving any models, and impose the difficult terrain penalty if any model's path would go through difficult terrain. And because the rules tell you to roll for charge range once and only once, and provide no support for your idea that you roll for charge range, resolve overwatch, move some models, and then roll charge range again to see if you successfully charge or not. You're talking about the absurd situation where you can attempt a charge, succeed and move half the models in your unit, then realize that you actually failed the charge and have to move everything back.

The rules don't work as written. Lets look at a possible example.



In this image the green unit has declared a charge against the red unit. The red unit is behind a wall, represented by the back box. The gray lines represent 1" squares of otherwise open ground. We know that "If,when charging,one or more models have to move through difficult terrain" we need to roll 3D6 and take the two lowest . But how do we determine "If,when charging,one or more models have to move through difficult terrain"? The only rules we have for determining where my chargers will end up requires I roll 1st.
In this example lets pretend the green unit gets a charge range of 3 inches. Model A will be able to move up to the wall and stop. Model A will be in base contact with model D because both A and D will be within 2 inches of each other and in base contact with the same wall. Model B with only 3" of movement will not be able to reach either models E or F, nor will it be able to reach model D. Model B will have to end its move within 2 inces of model A. The same will be true for model C. At this point we have followed all the rules on page 21 for charging and none of the models have needed to move through any terrain.
Now lets pretend the green unit gets a charge range of 7 inches. Now at least two of the models in the green group will be able to make it into base contact with either models D or E and one of the models in the green unit will have to charge through the wall to do so. But we already rolled the charge distance.

 DJGietzen wrote:
The rules don't work as written. Lets look at a possible example.

But your example is wrong. Each model must attempt to reach base contact, and that determines its path. Moving it into contact with a friendly engaged model or just maintaining unit coherency is something you do after you've attempted to make the required move (including rolling to see how far you move) and failed. So, in your example:

Model A is the closest model and must attempt to get into contact with model D. The line between the two crosses difficult terrain, so you roll 3D6 and drop the highest for your charge distance.

Models B and C must attempt to get into contact with models E and F (paired as you wish). Their required movement paths cross difficult terrain, so even if you didn't have to roll it because of A you certainly do now.

Now you roll charge distance. After attempting to move you end up with A and D in base contact with the wall and within 2", so they are engaged. This gives you permission to move B and C. If they rolled well enough (including their difficult terrain penalty) to reach their required target model they move into base contact. If they did not roll well enough they must move into base contact with A. If they did not roll well enough to do even that they must move to maintain 2" coherency.

nah its pretty simple. If you dont roll the 3d6 then the models in the unit can not pass through terrain, even if range allowed them to do so.

But either way, model a, in order to charge model d, has to pass through terrain (regardless of whether he stops on the opposite side of the wall) because in order to get into b2b he would have to. Therefore you would roll 3d6. in the above scenario.

 Peregrine wrote:

Model A is the closest model and must attempt to get into contact with model D. The line between the two crosses difficult terrain, so you roll 3D6 and drop the highest for your charge distance.

Models B and C must attempt to get into contact with models E and F (paired as you wish). Their required movement paths cross difficult terrain, so even if you didn't have to roll it because of A you certainly do now.

This exactly. Even if Model A didn't need to make a difficult terrain test, Models B and C do, and you HAVE to roll your 3D6 because of this.

Even then, I still think A has to make a difficult terrain test. The rule for assault says you have to get into base contact to launch your assault, it doesn't say anything about stopping at a barricade. That's much different from the barricade rule which says you're allowed to strike blows over a barricade. Just because A is allowed to strike blows over the barricade doesn't mean he gets to stop at the barricade for the purposes of launching the assault.