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Even the explosive shells, the part that bullet is going to hit is not the part that blows up (the shell is designed to blow up from the middle, to throw shrapnel outward in a ball.)

Fairly typical shell-design here:

 Psienesis wrote:
Incidentally....

... putting a bullet down the cannon barrel of a tank does not cause the round in said cannon to explode. The front of that shell is not the blowy-uppy part.

If you hit the detonator at the tip of the shell, it could detonate it. Needs one hell of a push though.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I'd honestly doubt that Sororitas Power Armour provides as much protection, though. Marines are stronger, faster and have superior stamina even than what is proportional to their size, so they can wear more armour without negative effects.

From Codex: Witch Hunters:

The Sororitas Power Armor worn by the Battle Sisters of the Orders Militant is based upon the same archaic systems as that worn by the brethren of the Adeptus Astartes. It provides the same degree of armoured protection, yet must forego the more advanced life support systems and strength-enhancing abilities used by the Space Marines, as the Sisters are not implanted with the Black Carapace that allows the Astartes to interface fully with their own armour.

Furthermore, the tabletop game gives them the same armour save. Fluff and crunch agree on this one, the Sororitas power armour is as protective as Marine power armour.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
We know that Marines are far more resistant to this as well. Resilience is not just armour.

And that's the extra point in toughness. But I was talking about armour, not toughness.

 Troike wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I'd honestly doubt that Sororitas Power Armour provides as much protection, though. Marines are stronger, faster and have superior stamina even than what is proportional to their size, so they can wear more armour without negative effects.

From Codex: Witch Hunters:

The Sororitas Power Armor worn by the Battle Sisters of the Orders Militant is based upon the same archaic systems as that worn by the brethren of the Adeptus Astartes. It provides the same degree of armoured protection, yet must forego the more advanced life support systems and strength-enhancing abilities used by the Space Marines, as the Sisters are not implanted with the Black Carapace that allows the Astartes to interface fully with their own armour.

Furthermore, the tabletop game gives them the same armour save. Fluff and crunch agree on this one, the Sororitas power armour is as protective as Marine power armour.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
We know that Marines are far more resistant to this as well. Resilience is not just armour.

And that's the extra point in toughness. But I was talking about armour, not toughness.

So Guardsmen equal Orks in strength fluffwise too?

Strange, everywhere I read says the contrary.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Marines

I don't read fanfiction.

Go ahead, keep holding your hands over your ears, close your eyes and say NO NO NO IM NOT LISTENING, if that is what you prefer. But if you'd like, I can dig up the original, official source for each statement.

Calling the 6th edition rulebook 'fanfiction', for example, is rather bold in my eyes.

The IG/Ork thing notwithstanding (because IG aren't schlubs, and the bogstandard Ork Boy isn't an eight-foot monster)...

... the fluff has always stated that Sororitas PA is as equally bullet-proof as SM PA. It doesn't have all the other tech-wizardry that a SM has, and the Sister doesn't have the Black Carapace, so she doesn't wear it like a second skin...

.... but they are equally protective of the person wearing it.

So you're ignoring the fact that the lore explicitly says the armor protection is equal.

That's not really the point I was making. That's just a tabletop thing. In this case, we have studio fluff saying something (SoB armour is as protective as Marine armour) and being represented on the tabletop. Sounds like a pretty consistent idea to me.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Go ahead, keep holding your hands over your ears, close your eyes and say NO NO NO IM NOT LISTENING, if that is what you prefer. But if you'd like, I can dig up the original, official source for each statement.

No you can't.

I mean here you are talking about how I'm supposedly screaming and closing my eyes and ignoring everything, but you are explicitly ignoring the lore.

 Melissia wrote:
So you're ignoring the fact that the lore explicitly says the armor protection is equal.

Hypocrisy is fun, isn't it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alright, lemme go dig 'em up.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Hypocrisy is fun, isn't it?

I wouldn't know.

Unlike you, I don't practice it.

Troike already gave you the quote that is going to prove you wrong.

 Psienesis wrote:
Troike already gave you the quote that is going to prove you wrong.

That is not what I am trying to disprove. More the fact that Melissia calls the wiki page 'fanfiction'

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Go ahead, keep holding your hands over your ears, close your eyes and say NO NO NO IM NOT LISTENING, if that is what you prefer. But if you'd like, I can dig up the original, official source for each statement.

Calling the 6th edition rulebook 'fanfiction', for example, is rather bold in my eyes.

Just a little tip, the 40K wiki doesn't have the best reputation, for some. I'm sure that a lot of it is accurate enough, but uncited claims and, indeed, outright fanfiction do seep into its articles from time to time. The 40K Lexicanum is generally regarded as more accurate, since it has an emphasis on trying to make sure that all of its information is properly cited in-text, so you can see exactly where a given piece of information came from. Though it's not perfect, but it's pretty accurate as wikis go.

That site you linked does permit fanfiction to be included/interpreted into pages.

That is why most people use Lexicanum, which has much stricter (though not perfect) editorial control.

Interesting, so Power armor unless it is Runic or otherwise noted is made universally the same?

 Asherian Command wrote:
Interesting, so Power armor unless it is Runic or otherwise noted is made universally the same?

Are you seriously suggesting that, when BOTH the lore and tabletop agree that Sororitas power armor provides equal protection to Astartes armor, that means that every example of power armor is utterly identical?

Oe rather, are you trying to claim that anyone here other than you is arguing that?

 Melissia wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Interesting, so Power armor unless it is Runic or otherwise noted is made universally the same?

Are you seriously suggesting that, when BOTH the lore and tabletop agree that Sororitas power armor provides equal protection to Astartes armor, that means that every example of power armor is utterly identical?

See my post regarding pointing and laughing at Wyzilla earlier.

No. I am asking does this suggest they are created in the same way?

 Asherian Command wrote:
No. I am asking does this suggest they are created in the same way?

It states that Sororitas Power Armor and Astartes Power Armor are based off of the same general concepts, with the exception that the Astartes power armor has a few more features regarding life support, and superior strength enhancement.

It makes no statement about other kinds of power armor.

Example sources:

Warhammer 40.000 compendium, page 129 explains

Marines are physically, mentally, and spiritually superior to any other Imperial soldier.

Space Marines 5th edition codex

They are mankind's foremost defence against a dark and brooding galaxy [...]

There is thus one Space Marine for each of the million worlds in the Imperium, a small number to be sure, yet sufficient for the task at hand.

That's two of them. Go check the 'Space Marines' section of the fluff parts in the 6th and 5th ed rulebook, as well as the latest codex, and you will see the rest. (If you insist, I can go grab them as well.)

You can only wave it off on 'codex bias' so many times, you know. And the rulebooks & compendium are not codices.

Or is it only fanfiction if it disagrees with you?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Or is it only fanfiction if it disagrees with you?

I wouldn't know, I'm not the one practicing it here. That would be you, as you explicitly ignore fluff citations that disagree with your positions on Space Marines.

Furthermore, none of those quotes actually support any of your arguments in this thread, especially regarding the invulnerability of power armor and the idea taht marines cannot be killed by lasguns.

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Or is it only fanfiction if it disagrees with you?

I wouldn't know, I'm not the one practicing it here. That would be you, as you explicitly ignore fluff citations that disagree with your positions on Space Marines.

Furthermore, none of those quotes actually support any of your arguments in this thread, especially regarding the invulnerability of power armor and the idea taht marines cannot be killed by lasguns.

Ah I remember when I use to write fan fluff. Until I finally moved onto my own universe. :B

Space Marines are not all powerful. They have weaknesses, just like the Primarchs. Infact they are not super warriors, nor are they true super human. Super human includes evolutional qualities such as increased brain function beyond human comprehension and muscle flexibility/agiliness. Name one time where a space marine solved an advanced equation in a matter of seconds. There are none. Only one brief lore bit from White Dwarf 300 proves that sentiment wrong. Which lists that an average space marine's IQ could be around 300-400. (Which in itself is impossible because that is not how IQ works XD)

Space Marines are tougher, but without their armor it does not mean they can take a tank shell, they are still at risk of dying. They cannot survive in the vacuum of space, they have to go into stasis mode in order to avoid it, but even then they still have a high chance of dying due to the vacuum.

(Edited)

I edited my post Asherian, mind adding the rephrased statement in to your quote?

Also, I disagree with nothing you posted there.

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Or is it only fanfiction if it disagrees with you?

I wouldn't know, I'm not the one practicing it here. That would be you, as you explicitly ignore fluff citations that disagree with your positions on Space Marines.

Furthermore, none of those quotes actually support any of your arguments in this thread, especially regarding the invulnerability of power armor and the idea taht marines cannot be killed by lasguns.

Do not evade the point. I listed sources. You can go check them yourself. I can list more if you want to. Do you still insist that the Compendium is fanfiction? If so, what 40K document is not fanfiction in your eyes?

Again, hypocrisy. Pointing out that I go against an argument based on a single quote from a Codex (Don't you guys usually question single Codex quotes, reasoning it may just be codex bias?) which goes against reason (Space Marine armour is bigger; just look at those shoulderpads, logic certainly says it'd be more protective, though perhaps clunky), despite the fact that you insist that 'reason' is the way to go in an unreasonable universe.

Pauldrons does not an armor make...

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Do not evade the point

I didn't.

You are once again changing the subject away from the ludicrous claims you have made.

I take it, then, that you are no longer defending them?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Again, hypocrisy.

Nope.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Don't you guys usually question single Codex quotes, reasoning it may just be codex bias?

Not when the codex says something very specific and factual instead of a general platitude. When a codex says an Ork can survive having his head removed if it's put back on its body (or a new body for that matter), that is pretty specific. When a codex says "Sororitas power armor is equivalent in protection to Astartes power armor" this is specific. When a codex states "Ultramarines are based off of Ultramar", that's pretty specific. Saying "ermagerd, spehss muhreenz are so coll!" is not. Saying "Sisters of Battle are shining examples of all that is good about humanity" is not specific, either, for that matter, even though it "proves" that Sisters are better than Space Marines just like your quotes "prove" the same about them.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Space Marine armour is bigger

That just makes them bigger targets.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Pauldrons does not an armor make...

No matter how small the difference may be, it is still a difference, which would contradict that statement about identical protection.

Besides, Sororitas appear to have rather tiny greaves.

Do not evade the point. I listed sources. You can go check them yourself. I can list more if you want to. Do you still insist that the Compendium is fanfiction? If so, what 40K document is not fanfiction in your eyes?

Again, hypocrisy. Pointing out that I go against an argument based on a single quote from a Codex (Don't you guys usually question single Codex quotes, reasoning it may just be codex bias?) which goes against reason (Space Marine armour is bigger; just look at those shoulderpads, logic certainly says it'd be more protective, though perhaps clunky), despite the fact that you insist that 'reason' is the way to go in an unreasonable universe.

It's now 2 or 3 Codices that support the statement that SoB PA is as bullet-proof as SM PA. Which is the only argument.

Just because the SM's armor is bigger does not make it more protective... it's bigger because the guy inside it is bigger, and it's packed full of all kinds of gubbins that an SM *might* need in his role as a take-all-comers combatant, who's primary duty, every day, is to go out and kill things for the Imperium, in a very wide variety of environments.

That doesn't mean his armor is any more bullet-proof, it just means it packs more toys. No one is arguing that. What you quoted is... entirely irrelevant to the question as to whether their PA is better than the SOB's PA, or anyone's PA in general.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
(Don't you guys usually question single Codex quotes, reasoning it may just be codex bias?)

I for one tend not to do that, actually.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
which goes against reason (Space Marine armour is bigger; just look at those shoulderpads, logic certainly says it'd be more protective, though perhaps clunky),

Well, the codex quote does note that the SoB armour loses a lot of systems that Marine Armour has. It could be explained as SoB armour being built mostly for protection while Marine armour does more things beyond that.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
despite the fact that you insist that 'reason' is the way to go in an unreasonable universe.

If you're so comfortable with it being an "unreasonable" setting, then why the problem with SoB armour being as protective as Marine armour? If you think it's that illogical, then surely it's only a relatively small suspension of disbelief to make, considering some of the crazier stuff in 40K?

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Do not evade the point

I didn't.

You are once again changing the subject away from the ludicrous claims you have made.

I take it, then, that you are no longer defending them?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Again, hypocrisy.

Nope.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Don't you guys usually question single Codex quotes, reasoning it may just be codex bias?

Not when the codex says something very specific and factual instead of a general platitude. When a codex says an Ork can survive having his head removed if it's put back on its body (or a new body for that matter) is pretty specific. Saying "ermagerd, spehss muhreenz are so coll!" is not.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Space Marine armour is bigger

That just makes them bigger targets.

What ludicrous claims? That Ceramite plate is impenetrable to lasguns? Do I need to explain why they are? I am not sure if I am going to bother answering to the 'invulnerability of power armour' and 'Marines cannot be killed by lasguns' strawmen. They can, but it is too unlikely for me to bother debating percentages.

That you say 'Nope' does not make your hypocrisy less of a fact.

That Space Marines are the foremost fighting force of the Imperium seems rather specific and factual to me. Also, nice strawman you threw in there.

Bigger targets or not, it still would logically give better protection assuming a shot hit anyway, yes?

Except, news flash, logic does not work in this setting.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
That Ceramite plate is impenetrable to lasguns?

A ludicrous claim unsupported by the lore.

To quote my earlier post: "You are making gak up."