Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Imperial_Arson wrote:
Marines are like the Spartans from Halo...they're shock troops and special forces, they operate behind enemy lands and disrupt their organization and morale,

The problem is that half the time the Space Marines are fighting pitched battles on front lines, engaging in tank battles, etc, not doing commando-ey things.

And then what happens when you want to kill the enemy leadership that happen to be inside a fortress oblivious to ICBM's, or are 100 feet underground in a bunker, or just so happen to be in a forgeworld factory that produces something absolutely vital to the defense of the imperium? What would you use then, as you obviously don't want to use marines even though they are the best option in said situation.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
And then what happens when you want to kill the enemy leadership that happen to be inside a fortress oblivious to ICBM's, or are 100 feet underground in a bunker, or just so happen to be in a forgeworld factory that produces something absolutely vital to the defense of the imperium? What would you use then, as you obviously don't want to use marines even though they are the best option in said situation.

Actually the assassinorum operatives are the best option in that situation; they're far less likely to produce collateral damage than astartes.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
And then what happens when you want to kill the enemy leadership that happen to be inside a fortress oblivious to ICBM's, or are 100 feet underground in a bunker, or just so happen to be in a forgeworld factory that produces something absolutely vital to the defense of the imperium? What would you use then, as you obviously don't want to use marines even though they are the best option in said situation.

Well, if the fortress is oblivious to the ICBMs then just shoot them with ICBMs! They'll never see it coming!

In that case, I would send in Stormtroopers, Drop Guardsmen or Space Marines since they are perfect in that situation. Space Marines are great at taking out regular humans in close quarters if that's what needs to be done.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
And then what happens when you want to kill the enemy leadership that happen to be inside a fortress oblivious to ICBM's, or are 100 feet underground in a bunker, or just so happen to be in a forgeworld factory that produces something absolutely vital to the defense of the imperium? What would you use then, as you obviously don't want to use marines even though they are the best option in said situation.

As Melissa said, this is why the Officio Assassinorum exists.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Unrelated to that topic, it peeves me that people try to criticize the Black Library without being very knowledgeable about it at all. That scene with the Space Marines being killed by las-weapons in First and Only? Yeah, it was specifically noted multiple times in the story that the las-weapons being used by that particular regiment were considerably stronger than normal lasguns, and also used up much more ammo (they were basically hot-shot lasguns). Which completely fits the fluff of hotshot lasguns going through marine armor (they are AP3, afterall).

Storm of Iron was also cited as an example. Were those hotshots too?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Context, children. People whine about the Black Library because "a guy who knew a guy who read the book told me that X happened. CONTRADICTION."

Sure, misinformation can be a problem...

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Most of the "contradictions" people think they see in the Black Library are just lack of context.

...but contradictions are indeed a thing in BL, they're allowed to deviate a bit. Actual BL authors have said so.

...That can apply equally to things like Gaunts' Ghosts and Storm of Iron, though.

It's not like it says it is only in favour of the marines.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
It's not like it says it is only in favour of the marines.

Not the point I (or Unit1126PLL, rather) was making. Just showing that there are examples of lasguns hurting Marines.

So wait, you won't commit space marines to tackle the situation as they are too valuable a resource but you will commit an assassin that requires a long administration trail to sanction and a resource that are EVEN rarer than marine?

Also, the Officio Assassinorum do like, fail you know? They have a high success rate, but if it's in a relatively suicidal situation then you are just throwing away the operative and well, you can probably replace a whole squad of space marines faster and for cheaper than a single assassin.

If the enemy leadership is a rogue planetary governor going mental with power in a huge fortress with nothing much more than your standard PDF as his army then yeah, fine, send in the assassin, if the enemy happens to be quite a savvy rogue general, or marshall, or warmaster or tau commander or any other combination of dangerous leader combined with dangerous army in close proximity, then who are you going to send in? Stormtroopers won't cut it, and again, there are less of them than marines so it's a waste of resources.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah, and finally, if you think space marines are overhyped in the fluff, how on earth can you justify the assassin operatives fluff?

 TheCustomLime wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
And then what happens when you want to kill the enemy leadership that happen to be inside a fortress oblivious to ICBM's, or are 100 feet underground in a bunker, or just so happen to be in a forgeworld factory that produces something absolutely vital to the defense of the imperium? What would you use then, as you obviously don't want to use marines even though they are the best option in said situation.

Well, if the fortress is oblivious to the ICBMs then just shoot them with ICBMs! They'll never see it coming!

In that case, I would send in Stormtroopers, Drop Guardsmen or Space Marines since they are perfect in that situation. Space Marines are great at taking out regular humans in close quarters if that's what needs to be done.

Cities in 40k have void-shields.
And there have been numerous occasions where nukes have been used in fluff/lore/fiction. they're just not used alot because if they were then all the factions would just be using WMDs all the time and very few of them are okay with it.

Eldar use WMDs very little of the time because most of the time they want to recover something, defend a Maiden World or something, etc.
IoM doesn't just nuke everything , they actually want to preserve planets so they can exploit their resources and use them for habitation.
Necrons want to reap life, not completely destroy it.
Chaos, wants to corrupt and kill personally.
Tyranids, same as Necrons.
Tau, want to convert life to the Greater Good, plus they don't want to destroy potential habitats.
Orks just want to have fun.
Dark Eldar want resources and slaves.

As for " well why don't they just nuke everything" . SOMETIMES THEY DO. It's called exterminatus.
Plus they can always use plasma torpedos, which they do use.


If you don't understand the reasons why WMDs aren't used instead of infantry then why are you on here other then for the tabletop game?
Plus, why deviate the topic when you know this is about Marines not WMDs.
40k /= realistic.
thought you would have known this.

Assassins in general aren't rarer than marines, I should note, even if the Officio Assassinorum operatives are. The Assassinorum, however, is far more competent at killing the target without causing collateral damage than Astartes are. Hell, even non-Assassinorum assassins would be.

A well placed IED, dagger, or bullet can do the same thing as calling in three squads of marines if you're just looking to assassinate a leader.

 Melissia wrote:
Assassins in general aren't rarer than marines, I should note, even if the Officio Assassinorum operatives are. The Assassinorum, however, is far more competent at killing the target without causing collateral damage than Astartes are. Hell, even non-Assassinorum assassins would be.

A well placed IED, dagger, or bullet can do instead of calling in a few squads of marines.

Well they are rather rare and very OP.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Assassins in general aren't rarer than marines, I should note, even if the Officio Assassinorum operatives are.

Well they are rather rare and very OP.

I think you're confusing the general term "assassin" with the specific term "assassinorum operative".

They are not the same.

Hell, the Imperial Guard can provide its own "assassins", albeit of lesser caliber; snipers, infiltration teams (often stormtroopers), camo-cloak wearing scouts, what have you. And it could always hire one of the countless assassins and assassin organizations and death cults if those weren't up to snuff. And if THOSE aren't up to snuff and the target is important enough, they can rely upon the assassinorum to do the job.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hell, Gaunt and Cain both functioned effectively as assassins in this definition of the term: "a murderer of an important person in a surprise attack for political or religious reasons."

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Assassins in general aren't rarer than marines, I should note, even if the Officio Assassinorum operatives are.

Well they are rather rare and very OP.

I think you're confusing the general term "assassin" with the specific term "assassinorum operative".

They are not the same.

Hell, the Imperial Guard can provide its own "assassins", albeit of lesser caliber; snipers, infiltration teams (often stormtroopers), camo-cloak wearing scouts, what have you. And it could always hire one of the countless assassins and assassin organizations and death cults if those weren't up to snuff. And if THOSE aren't up to snuff and the target is important enough, they can rely upon the assassinorum to do the job.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hell, Gaunt and Cain both functioned effectively as assassins in this definition of the term: "a murderer of an important person in a surprise attack for political or religious reasons."

Well, due to the fact that an 'Imperial Assassin' is a rather... Unique fellow, people tend to assume they mean them when you are talking about assassins in comparison to other imperial forces.

Space Marines have assassins as well, in the general definition. Sniper Scouts. Raven Guard. (A Raven Guard infiltrated a Chaos Leviathan Command Vehicle in The Chapter's Due, I think. Caused some trouble for them.)

Again, you're confusing "assassin" with "assassinorum operative".

Seriously, stop. In 40k they are not the same.

There are tons of assassins that are not assassinorum operatives.

 Melissia wrote:
Again, you're confusing "assassin" with "assassinorum operative".

Seriously, stop. In 40k they are not the same.

There are tons of assassins that are not assassinorum operatives.

*Rolleyes*

Pedantics.

When I search 'Imperial Assassin' on Lexicanum (You know, the wiki where everything is cited with page numbers and all?) I am redirected to this page. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Imperial_Assassin#.UtBRHFvuJ8E

I take that as enough justification for not losing sleep over using 'Imperial Assassin' to refer to 'Agent of the Officio Assassinorum'.

Can we go back to the topic now?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Pedantics.

Asserting that a huge segment of the lore simply doesn't exist is... bizarre of you.

There have been countless examples of non-Assassinorum assassins, assassin organizations, and et cetera.

Hell, the tabletop has some of them-- death cultists are a great example of non-assassinorum operative assassins.

"Assassin" is general, "Assassinorum Operative" is specific. "Imperial Assassin" just means that they're an assassin in the Imperium's employ, not that they are an operative of the Officio Assassinorum.

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Pedantics.

Asserting that a huge segment of the lore simply doesn't exist is... bizarre of you.

There have been countless examples of non-Assassinorum assassins, assassin organizations, and et cetera.

Hell, the tabletop has some of them-- death cultists are a great example of non-assassinorum operative assassins.

"Assassin" is general, "Assassinorum Operative" is specific. "Imperial Assassin" just means that they're an assassin in the Imperium's employ, not that they are an operative of the Officio Assassinorum.

Way to miss the point.

I never proclaimed that non-Assassinorum assassins does not exist.

Only that I won't lose sleep over using the term 'Imperial Assassin' to refer to Assassinorum people.

Notice how I refer to these Assassins with an 'A' rather than an 'a'?

If you want to be pedantic, then sure, just check closely whether I say 'Assassin' or 'assassin'.

Because a regular IG sniper is certainly not an Assassin.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Can we go back to the topic now?

To the main point?

I think GW needs to decide what the role of the Space Marines is before they can re-emphasize it. They need to decide whether Warhammer 40K is a game set in a grim, dystopian future where there is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter to the mocking laughter of thirsting gods..... or a game where power armored supersoldiers kill thousands of times their own number of enemies, using a gun that only packs 24 rounds and walk away without a scratch.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I never proclaimed that non-Assassinorum assassins does not exist.

You acted as if they did not, when I asserted that they could be used in this situation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
To the main point?

I think GW needs to decide what the role of the Space Marines is before they can re-emphasize it. They need to decide whether Warhammer 40K is a game set in a grim, dystopian future where there is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter to the mocking laughter of thirsting gods..... or a game where power armored supersoldiers kill thousands of times their own number of enemies, using a gun that only packs 24 rounds and walk away without a scratch.

GW has it set up so that they can have both.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
And then what happens when you want to kill the enemy leadership that happen to be inside a fortress oblivious to ICBM's, or are 100 feet underground in a bunker,

So if this fortress is so well protected that even direct hits from nukes can't touch it how exactly are space marines going to get inside? Knock on the door and ask nicely to have a heroic duel with the enemy commander?

or just so happen to be in a forgeworld factory that produces something absolutely vital to the defense of the imperium?

Nuke it anyway. The enemy probably has a nuke on a dead man's switch just to deny it out of spite if you manage to kill them, and has probably defiled it with chaos corruption/xenos tech-heresy/etc already. You're not getting it back, so you might as well just nuke it and save yourself the trouble.

 Peregrine wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
And then what happens when you want to kill the enemy leadership that happen to be inside a fortress oblivious to ICBM's, or are 100 feet underground in a bunker,

So if this fortress is so well protected that even direct hits from nukes can't touch it how exactly are space marines going to get inside? Knock on the door and ask nicely to have a heroic duel with the enemy commander?

or just so happen to be in a forgeworld factory that produces something absolutely vital to the defense of the imperium?

Nuke it anyway. The enemy probably has a nuke on a dead man's switch just to deny it out of spite if you manage to kill them, and has probably defiled it with chaos corruption/xenos tech-heresy/etc already. You're not getting it back, so you might as well just nuke it and save yourself the trouble.

You really seem to think there is a high prevalence of atomic weaponry in 40k when there isn't, they don't need it. They have orbital weapons and the Dark Age of Technology advanced way beyond the need for them.

Seriously -.- just because IT WOULD MAKE SENSE IN OUR WORLD, doesn't mean it's going to be in 40k. I dont know how hard that can be.

 Imperial_Arson wrote:
You really seem to think there is a high prevalence of atomic weaponry in 40k when there isn't, they don't need it. They have orbital weapons and the Dark Age of Technology advanced way beyond the need for them.

Krieg and Colonel Jurten's 'Purging' is actually a rather good indicator of the scale of atomic weaponry available to the Imperium. When Krieg's civil war started, Colonel Jurten of the 83rd Regiment was tasked with holding Krieg against the rebels but knowing that no fleet would arrive in time to assist his beleaguered loyalists, decided that Krieg would not fall to the rebels. With much of the planet in rebel hands, he unleashed a massive atomic strike against the rebels, using atomic weapon stocks hidden beneath Hive Ferrograd, if I recall it correctly. Krieg was utterly devastated over the next few days with it's ecosystem all but annihilated and the survivors forced to live underground, where they continued the fight, rebel against loyalist, for half a millennia. Such was the enormity of Jurten's strike that Krieg's surface is utterly uninhabitable and would never be habitable again.

Well, "never" in the scope of the 40K timeline, but even radiation does not last forever.

True, but it sounded a little more dramatic. Either way, Krieg is not a planet to go for a Sunday afternoon stroll on.

Oh, of course not. As it currently is in M41, it's a hellhole (and, in fact, the DKOK will be used in my DH campaign, which is also set on a post-nuclear-apocalypse planet...) and will be until everyone in the current era is many millennia dead.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
If the enemy leadership is a rogue planetary governor going mental with power in a huge fortress with nothing much more than your standard PDF as his army then yeah, fine, send in the assassin.

actually you teleport in a squad of Grey Knights and let them deal with it, just like they did in the book "The Emperors Gift"

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:

 Imperial_Arson wrote:
You really seem to think there is a high prevalence of atomic weaponry in 40k when there isn't, they don't need it. They have orbital weapons and the Dark Age of Technology advanced way beyond the need for them.

Krieg and Colonel Jurten's 'Purging' is actually a rather good indicator of the scale of atomic weaponry available to the Imperium. When Krieg's civil war started, Colonel Jurten of the 83rd Regiment was tasked with holding Krieg against the rebels but knowing that no fleet would arrive in time to assist his beleaguered loyalists, decided that Krieg would not fall to the rebels. With much of the planet in rebel hands, he unleashed a massive atomic strike against the rebels, using atomic weapon stocks hidden beneath Hive Ferrograd, if I recall it correctly. Krieg was utterly devastated over the next few days with it's ecosystem all but annihilated and the survivors forced to live underground, where they continued the fight, rebel against loyalist, for half a millennia. Such was the enormity of Jurten's strike that Krieg's surface is utterly uninhabitable and would never be habitable again.

You don't hear about other instances of this much in 40k lore.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't see the relevance, really. Yes, it would make more sense to just bomb a planet or warzone into submission most of the time, but that applies for all of Imperial warfare. Why do Imperial Guard build trenches and have multi-year long trenchwars with rebels (First and Only, Straight Silver)? Why do they waste thousands of men and an entire marine chapter on boarding a a Craftworld to destroy it instead of just destroying it with their fleet?

Because Warhammer 40K. That isn't a criticism that can be allayed specifically to Space Marines, though.


- - - - - - -

Unrelated to that topic, it peeves me that people try to criticize the Black Library without being very knowledgeable about it at all. That scene with the Space Marines being killed by las-weapons in First and Only? Yeah, it was specifically noted multiple times in the story that the las-weapons being used by that particular regiment were considerably stronger than normal lasguns, and also used up much more ammo (they were basically hot-shot lasguns). Which completely fits the fluff of hotshot lasguns going through marine armor (they are AP3, afterall).

Context, children. People whine about the Black Library because "a guy who knew a guy who read the book told me that X happened. CONTRADICTION." Most of the "contradictions" people think they see in the Black Library are just lack of context.

There's also some stuff that is immensely contradictory due to the nature of the Black Library with books made for each faction being vastly different in feats compared to the other- even varying greatly in the books for their own factions. Hell, even in a single book feats can completely vary, simply due to being named exponentially increases your ability to eat bolters while the unnamed book besides you goes down like a punk to a bolter. It's just that the high end for Marines goes above and beyond the high end for guardsmen.

EDIT-

Also, ironically CSM's do enjoy using plasma bombs and planted explosives, especially the Iron Warriors.

Double EDIT-

On the subject of Sisters armor, it's the same quality. Just remember that it's also less. Astartes don't only have the advantage of the black carapace, but being simply larger and stronger, and can thus wear more armor, which thanks to the black carapace, doesn't even feel like armor. The legs and pauldrons of Astartes PA especially comes to mind.

 Imperial_Arson wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
And then what happens when you want to kill the enemy leadership that happen to be inside a fortress oblivious to ICBM's, or are 100 feet underground in a bunker, or just so happen to be in a forgeworld factory that produces something absolutely vital to the defense of the imperium? What would you use then, as you obviously don't want to use marines even though they are the best option in said situation.

Well, if the fortress is oblivious to the ICBMs then just shoot them with ICBMs! They'll never see it coming!

In that case, I would send in Stormtroopers, Drop Guardsmen or Space Marines since they are perfect in that situation. Space Marines are great at taking out regular humans in close quarters if that's what needs to be done.

Cities in 40k have void-shields.
And there have been numerous occasions where nukes have been used in fluff/lore/fiction. they're just not used alot because if they were then all the factions would just be using WMDs all the time and very few of them are okay with it.

Firstly, it was a joke since he said "Oblivious" rather than "Impervious".

Secondly, I don't understand your line of thinking. If they were used all the time then everyone would use them but very few are okay with it? If very few are okay with it then why would they use them? And, more important, no one in 40k gives a damn whether you are okay with the usage of a weapon or not. Conventions of war are pretty much gone in the grim dark future.

Eldar use WMDs very little of the time because most of the time they want to recover something, defend a Maiden World or something, etc.
IoM doesn't just nuke everything , they actually want to preserve planets so they can exploit their resources and use them for habitation.
Necrons want to reap life, not completely destroy it.
Chaos, wants to corrupt and kill personally.
Tyranids, same as Necrons.
Tau, want to convert life to the Greater Good, plus they don't want to destroy potential habitats.
Orks just want to have fun.
Dark Eldar want resources and slaves.

Relevance? We aren't talking about these factions doing what they do. We are talking about the Imperium assaulting a forge world fortress.

As for " well why don't they just nuke everything" . SOMETIMES THEY DO. It's called exterminatus.
Plus they can always use plasma torpedos, which they do use.

I never said that nor did anyone else. But I still don't understand what this has to do with taking a fortress.

If you don't understand the reasons why WMDs aren't used instead of infantry then why are you on here other then for the tabletop game?
Plus, why deviate the topic when you know this is about Marines not WMDs.
40k /= realistic.
thought you would have known this.

Uhhh... okay. Well, I am here because I am a Marine fan who thinks that Space Marines are perceived as being too powerful by some and I am hoping to change their minds through an argument. Plus, I never suggested that we should just nuke everything since there are legitimate reasons for using ground infantry. I even said that you could use Space Marines for this job if the fortress was impervious to Nukes thanks to some missile defense system. Read someone's post before going on a rant. By the way, you are the one who deviated off of the topic, not me.

Also, 40k may not be realistic but that doesn't mean we should throw logic out of the window. There has to be some logic for us to believe what they are saying.

As for the topic... my selection of 40k fluff beats your selection of 40k fluff. I think that's pretty much the argument at this point.