Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Wounds are an unfluffy stat anyway. Why does a Company Commander have 3 wounds and a Brotherhood Champion one?

Wounds does help, even if it does to a lesser degree. On average a D weapon does 3 wounds. It can very well make the difference between being oneshotted and surviving to lift off again the next turn, you know.

I won't go into who beats who fluffwise, not now, but him surviving a shot from that Lynx or not can make all the difference.

Let's not start that gak again.
It's every single source that agrees with me, so it's not up for debate.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
He costs far more, that is undoubtable. Go check the codex. It's less than 580, no matter what you throw at it, I assure you.

He is, fluffwise, stronger than a Codex Bloodthirster. Not stronger against Ka'bandha, perhaps. Or An'ggrath. But stronger than a non-special character Bloodthirster, certainly.

He is just as vulnerable to strength D, since it ignores his toughness and saves. Hence he needs to fly and have more wounds to be able to justify his price. Otherwise he'll be wiped off the table by a Pulsar turn 1 and that'd be sort of underwhelming for his cost.

Wounds matter next to nothing if he is being targeted by D weapons while on the ground he's dead anyway. Thus additional wounds add nothing and serve as inconsistencies according to fluff.

They serve to meet with the fluff, actually.
Primarchs casually crush vanilla greater daemons as shown multiple times throughout the HH.
Like how Magnus crushed that Minor (incredibly) Warp God in his hands, or what Guilliman did to Samus.
Fluffwise an Ascended Angron would be more powerful than An'ggrath given what Sanguinius did to Ka'Bandha (An'ggrath's equal), or how Lorgar crushed An'ggrath.

You get the very basic facts right of the fluff you reference but you always blow the event massively out of proportion. Firstly the God that Magnus crushed was actually Tzeentch taking the form of a snake to corrupt Magnus, Magnus did not kill him. Secondly Primarchs vary rarely "crush" grater daemons, they usually triumph through a great feat of arms and at great cost to themselves. Secondly how have you established that Ka'bandah was and is An'ggraths equal? The fact that they are both described as Khornes greatest servant is irrelevant as An'ggrath was formed after Ka'Bandah and is the new "most powerful servant of Khorne". Thirdly Lorgar did not crush An'ggrath. He very narrowly defeated him, sustaining injuries of such a degree that he collapsed in agony and exhaustion afterwards.
The logic that if one Primarch of 'X' strength defeats a certain daemon that is 'Y' strength does not mean that another Primarch who is stronger can suddenly easily defeat an opponent equal to strength 'Y'. This was discussed in another of your threads.
Therefore the fluff does not directly show that he should be awarded the number of wounds you have given him. Besides they make no real difference to him in the battles that you say you will be using him in. Flying yes makes a huge difference, hence my encouragement of putting it on him. An additional wound does not.

At this point, though, it's no longer a fluff discussion but a balance one.

Balance is not my cup of tea, but I'm sure we can get in someone else who is good at it to judge.

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
He costs far more, that is undoubtable. Go check the codex. It's less than 580, no matter what you throw at it, I assure you.

He is, fluffwise, stronger than a Codex Bloodthirster. Not stronger against Ka'bandha, perhaps. Or An'ggrath. But stronger than a non-special character Bloodthirster, certainly.

He is just as vulnerable to strength D, since it ignores his toughness and saves. Hence he needs to fly and have more wounds to be able to justify his price. Otherwise he'll be wiped off the table by a Pulsar turn 1 and that'd be sort of underwhelming for his cost.

Wounds matter next to nothing if he is being targeted by D weapons while on the ground he's dead anyway. Thus additional wounds add nothing and serve as inconsistencies according to fluff.

They serve to meet with the fluff, actually.
Primarchs casually crush vanilla greater daemons as shown multiple times throughout the HH.
Like how Magnus crushed that Minor (incredibly) Warp God in his hands, or what Guilliman did to Samus.
Fluffwise an Ascended Angron would be more powerful than An'ggrath given what Sanguinius did to Ka'Bandha (An'ggrath's equal), or how Lorgar crushed An'ggrath.

You get the very basic facts right of the fluff you reference but you always blow the event massively out of proportion. Firstly the God that Magnus crushed was actually Tzeentch taking the form of a snake to corrupt Magnus, Magnus did not kill him. Secondly Primarchs vary rarely "crush" grater daemons, they usually triumph through a great feat of arms and at great cost to themselves. Secondly how have you established that Ka'bandah was and is An'ggraths equal? The fact that they are both described as Khornes greatest servant is irrelevant as An'ggrath was formed after Ka'Bandah and is the new "most powerful servant of Khorne". Thirdly Lorgar did not crush An'ggrath. He very narrowly defeated him, sustaining injuries of such a degree that he collapsed in agony and exhaustion afterwards.
The logic that if one Primarch of 'X' strength defeats a certain daemon that is 'Y' strength does not mean that another Primarch who is stronger can suddenly easily defeat an opponent equal to strength 'Y'. This was discussed in another of your threads.
Therefore the fluff does not directly show that he should be awarded the number of wounds you have given him. Besides they make no real difference to him in the battles that you say you will be using him in. Flying yes makes a huge difference, hence my encouragement of putting it on him. An additional wound does not.

The snake wasn't Tzeentch. I'm pretty sure of that. And yeah that snake thing was killed.
And Magnus killing Tzeentch isn't blowing this out of proportion /
Ka'Bandha and An'ggrath are magnitudes stronger than normal Bloodthirsters and they were beaten by Primarchs.
That means that Angron could pretty handily mutilate a Bloodthirster. Before being Ascended to being a 30 foot monstrosity telling Kharne to make Thrones from hundreds of skulls.

He didn't really kill Tzeentch, though, if it was him/it. More like Tzeentch faking death. But I don't know, I haven't read that yet.

I agree about the Thirsters though.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
He costs far more, that is undoubtable. Go check the codex. It's less than 580, no matter what you throw at it, I assure you.

He is, fluffwise, stronger than a Codex Bloodthirster. Not stronger against Ka'bandha, perhaps. Or An'ggrath. But stronger than a non-special character Bloodthirster, certainly.

He is just as vulnerable to strength D, since it ignores his toughness and saves. Hence he needs to fly and have more wounds to be able to justify his price. Otherwise he'll be wiped off the table by a Pulsar turn 1 and that'd be sort of underwhelming for his cost.

Wounds matter next to nothing if he is being targeted by D weapons while on the ground he's dead anyway. Thus additional wounds add nothing and serve as inconsistencies according to fluff.

They serve to meet with the fluff, actually.
Primarchs casually crush vanilla greater daemons as shown multiple times throughout the HH.
Like how Magnus crushed that Minor (incredibly) Warp God in his hands, or what Guilliman did to Samus.
Fluffwise an Ascended Angron would be more powerful than An'ggrath given what Sanguinius did to Ka'Bandha (An'ggrath's equal), or how Lorgar crushed An'ggrath.

You get the very basic facts right of the fluff you reference but you always blow the event massively out of proportion. Firstly the God that Magnus crushed was actually Tzeentch taking the form of a snake to corrupt Magnus, Magnus did not kill him. Secondly Primarchs vary rarely "crush" grater daemons, they usually triumph through a great feat of arms and at great cost to themselves. Secondly how have you established that Ka'bandah was and is An'ggraths equal? The fact that they are both described as Khornes greatest servant is irrelevant as An'ggrath was formed after Ka'Bandah and is the new "most powerful servant of Khorne". Thirdly Lorgar did not crush An'ggrath. He very narrowly defeated him, sustaining injuries of such a degree that he collapsed in agony and exhaustion afterwards.
The logic that if one Primarch of 'X' strength defeats a certain daemon that is 'Y' strength does not mean that another Primarch who is stronger can suddenly easily defeat an opponent equal to strength 'Y'. This was discussed in another of your threads.
Therefore the fluff does not directly show that he should be awarded the number of wounds you have given him. Besides they make no real difference to him in the battles that you say you will be using him in. Flying yes makes a huge difference, hence my encouragement of putting it on him. An additional wound does not.

The snake wasn't Tzeentch. I'm pretty sure of that. And yeah that snake thing was killed.
And Magnus killing Tzeentch isn't blowing this out of proportion /
Ka'Bandha and An'ggrath are magnitudes stronger than normal Bloodthirsters and they were beaten by Primarchs.
That means that Angron could pretty handily mutilate a Bloodthirster. Before being Ascended to being a 30foot monstrosity telling Kharne to make Thrones from hundreds of skulls.

Actually read my post properly before you post. I specifically said that Magnus did not kill Tzeentch. And yes that serpent was tzeentch trying to corrupt Magnus. That is made very obvious in the book. Magnus merely disperses the incarnation, most likely by tzeentchs own will. Also another example of you hugely overblowing fluff. Where is he ever described as 30 foot?
Lastly I agree that Angron could mutilate a generic Bloodthrister but not easily by any means. In the end this has no relevant ego his wound statistics which is what we are discussing.

XXXX

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
He didn't really kill Tzeentch, though, if it was him/it. More like Tzeentch faking death. But I don't know, I haven't read that yet.

I agree about the Thirsters though.

If it was Tzeentch Magnus would have been swayed then and there. He is the Great Deceiver. Tzeentch is a Chaos God and thus one arrogant blowhard. He would never let himself be killed so easily in such an undignified matter.
Nope Magnus just crushed that Greater Daemon in his hands. While in the Warp.

I think +1W gives him a 50% (Not sure on the maths though) better chance to survive a Pulsar or a Turbo-Laser Destructor.

Significant, and important since Pulsars and Turbolasers are a dime a dozen.

And Primordial, I think it was just Tzeentch sending some lesser essence of himself that he intended for Magnus to crush.

Tzeentch may be a god, but he loves nothing more than complicated plans and deception, which this is.

Now, back to the wounds?

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
He didn't really kill Tzeentch, though, if it was him/it. More like Tzeentch faking death. But I don't know, I haven't read that yet.

I agree about the Thirsters though.

If it was Tzeentch Magnus would have been swayed then and there. He is the Great Deceiver. Tzeentch is a Chaos God and thus one arrogant blowhard. He would never let himself be killed so easily in such an undignified matter.
Nope Magnus just crushed that Greater Daemon in his hands. While in the Warp.

Your denial doesn't change the fact that it was Tzeentch...

XXXX


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I think +1W gives him a 50% (Not sure on the maths though) better chance to survive a Pulsar or a Turbo-Laser Destructor.

Significant, and important since Pulsars and Turbolasers are a dime a dozen.

And Primordial, I think it was just Tzeentch sending some lesser essence of himself that he intended for Magnus to crush.

Tzeentch may be a god, but he loves nothing more than complicated plans and deception, which this is.

Now, back to the wounds?

There is no further need for discussion on the wounds, either he puts them in or he doesn't. It's a matter of what he wants to do. It's essentially pointless to put them on but there is no real unexplored argument as to whether or not he should put them on.

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
He costs far more, that is undoubtable. Go check the codex. It's less than 580, no matter what you throw at it, I assure you.

He is, fluffwise, stronger than a Codex Bloodthirster. Not stronger against Ka'bandha, perhaps. Or An'ggrath. But stronger than a non-special character Bloodthirster, certainly.

He is just as vulnerable to strength D, since it ignores his toughness and saves. Hence he needs to fly and have more wounds to be able to justify his price. Otherwise he'll be wiped off the table by a Pulsar turn 1 and that'd be sort of underwhelming for his cost.

Wounds matter next to nothing if he is being targeted by D weapons while on the ground he's dead anyway. Thus additional wounds add nothing and serve as inconsistencies according to fluff.

They serve to meet with the fluff, actually.
Primarchs casually crush vanilla greater daemons as shown multiple times throughout the HH.
Like how Magnus crushed that Minor (incredibly) Warp God in his hands, or what Guilliman did to Samus.
Fluffwise an Ascended Angron would be more powerful than An'ggrath given what Sanguinius did to Ka'Bandha (An'ggrath's equal), or how Lorgar crushed An'ggrath.

You get the very basic facts right of the fluff you reference but you always blow the event massively out of proportion. Firstly the God that Magnus crushed was actually Tzeentch taking the form of a snake to corrupt Magnus, Magnus did not kill him. Secondly Primarchs vary rarely "crush" grater daemons, they usually triumph through a great feat of arms and at great cost to themselves. Secondly how have you established that Ka'bandah was and is An'ggraths equal? The fact that they are both described as Khornes greatest servant is irrelevant as An'ggrath was formed after Ka'Bandah and is the new "most powerful servant of Khorne". Thirdly Lorgar did not crush An'ggrath. He very narrowly defeated him, sustaining injuries of such a degree that he collapsed in agony and exhaustion afterwards.
The logic that if one Primarch of 'X' strength defeats a certain daemon that is 'Y' strength does not mean that another Primarch who is stronger can suddenly easily defeat an opponent equal to strength 'Y'. This was discussed in another of your threads.
Therefore the fluff does not directly show that he should be awarded the number of wounds you have given him. Besides they make no real difference to him in the battles that you say you will be using him in. Flying yes makes a huge difference, hence my encouragement of putting it on him. An additional wound does not.

The snake wasn't Tzeentch. I'm pretty sure of that. And yeah that snake thing was killed.
And Magnus killing Tzeentch isn't blowing this out of proportion /
Ka'Bandha and An'ggrath are magnitudes stronger than normal Bloodthirsters and they were beaten by Primarchs.
That means that Angron could pretty handily mutilate a Bloodthirster. Before being Ascended to being a 30foot monstrosity telling Kharne to make Thrones from hundreds of skulls.

Actually read my post properly before you post. I specifically said that Magnus did not kill Tzeentch. And yes that serpent was tzeentch trying to corrupt Magnus. That is made very obvious in the book. Magnus merely disperses the incarnation, most likely by tzeentchs own will. Also another example of you hugely overblowing fluff. Where is he ever described as 30 foot?
Lastly I agree that Angron could mutilate a generic Bloodthrister but not easily by any means. In the end this has no relevant ego his wound statistics which is what we are discussing.

XXXX

In Betrayer his head reaches the top of the deck they have him restrained on, after his transformation is complete. 4 decks in every direction of the deck Angron is imprisoned on have their walls and floors become bleeding, scarred faces.
Statwise Angron unascended would beat a Bloodthirsters brains out, one handed, while he was half asleep.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
He didn't really kill Tzeentch, though, if it was him/it. More like Tzeentch faking death. But I don't know, I haven't read that yet.

I agree about the Thirsters though.

If it was Tzeentch Magnus would have been swayed then and there. He is the Great Deceiver. Tzeentch is a Chaos God and thus one arrogant blowhard. He would never let himself be killed so easily in such an undignified matter.
Nope Magnus just crushed that Greater Daemon in his hands. While in the Warp.

Your denial doesn't change the fact that it was Tzeentch...

XXXX


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I think +1W gives him a 50% (Not sure on the maths though) better chance to survive a Pulsar or a Turbo-Laser Destructor.

Significant, and important since Pulsars and Turbolasers are a dime a dozen.

And Primordial, I think it was just Tzeentch sending some lesser essence of himself that he intended for Magnus to crush.

Tzeentch may be a god, but he loves nothing more than complicated plans and deception, which this is.

Now, back to the wounds?

There is no further need for discussion on the wounds, either he puts them in or he doesn't. It's a matter of what he wants to do. It's essentially pointless to put them on but there is no real unexplored argument as to whether or not he should put them on.

Where does it say it was Tzeentch?
I read the book and have it with me right now. Nowhere does it say that.

I explained how it is not pointless at all to put the wound on. 50% is massive against D weapons and it makes a lot of difference against non-D as well.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I explained how it is not pointless at all to put the wound on. 50% is massive against D weapons and it makes a lot of difference against non-D as well.

I intend to play this in games with non existant S: D or games with S: D is basically treated as S:11 like in the old rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I don't know why this has slipped my mind for so long.
The reason he's not an FMC is because Daemon Angron never flies, in any of his descriptions. The wings are in theory just there for show.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
He costs far more, that is undoubtable. Go check the codex. It's less than 580, no matter what you throw at it, I assure you.

He is, fluffwise, stronger than a Codex Bloodthirster. Not stronger against Ka'bandha, perhaps. Or An'ggrath. But stronger than a non-special character Bloodthirster, certainly.

He is just as vulnerable to strength D, since it ignores his toughness and saves. Hence he needs to fly and have more wounds to be able to justify his price. Otherwise he'll be wiped off the table by a Pulsar turn 1 and that'd be sort of underwhelming for his cost.

Wounds matter next to nothing if he is being targeted by D weapons while on the ground he's dead anyway. Thus additional wounds add nothing and serve as inconsistencies according to fluff.

They serve to meet with the fluff, actually.
Primarchs casually crush vanilla greater daemons as shown multiple times throughout the HH.
Like how Magnus crushed that Minor (incredibly) Warp God in his hands, or what Guilliman did to Samus.
Fluffwise an Ascended Angron would be more powerful than An'ggrath given what Sanguinius did to Ka'Bandha (An'ggrath's equal), or how Lorgar crushed An'ggrath.

You get the very basic facts right of the fluff you reference but you always blow the event massively out of proportion. Firstly the God that Magnus crushed was actually Tzeentch taking the form of a snake to corrupt Magnus, Magnus did not kill him. Secondly Primarchs vary rarely "crush" grater daemons, they usually triumph through a great feat of arms and at great cost to themselves. Secondly how have you established that Ka'bandah was and is An'ggraths equal? The fact that they are both described as Khornes greatest servant is irrelevant as An'ggrath was formed after Ka'Bandah and is the new "most powerful servant of Khorne". Thirdly Lorgar did not crush An'ggrath. He very narrowly defeated him, sustaining injuries of such a degree that he collapsed in agony and exhaustion afterwards.
The logic that if one Primarch of 'X' strength defeats a certain daemon that is 'Y' strength does not mean that another Primarch who is stronger can suddenly easily defeat an opponent equal to strength 'Y'. This was discussed in another of your threads.
Therefore the fluff does not directly show that he should be awarded the number of wounds you have given him. Besides they make no real difference to him in the battles that you say you will be using him in. Flying yes makes a huge difference, hence my encouragement of putting it on him. An additional wound does not.

The snake wasn't Tzeentch. I'm pretty sure of that. And yeah that snake thing was killed.
And Magnus killing Tzeentch isn't blowing this out of proportion /
Ka'Bandha and An'ggrath are magnitudes stronger than normal Bloodthirsters and they were beaten by Primarchs.
That means that Angron could pretty handily mutilate a Bloodthirster. Before being Ascended to being a 30foot monstrosity telling Kharne to make Thrones from hundreds of skulls.

Actually read my post properly before you post. I specifically said that Magnus did not kill Tzeentch. And yes that serpent was tzeentch trying to corrupt Magnus. That is made very obvious in the book. Magnus merely disperses the incarnation, most likely by tzeentchs own will. Also another example of you hugely overblowing fluff. Where is he ever described as 30 foot?
Lastly I agree that Angron could mutilate a generic Bloodthrister but not easily by any means. In the end this has no relevant ego his wound statistics which is what we are discussing.

XXXX

In Betrayer his head reaches the top of the deck they have him restrained on, after his transformation is complete. 4 decks in every direction of the deck Angron is imprisoned on have their walls and floors become bleeding, scarred faces.
Statwise Angron unascended would beat a Bloodthirsters brains out, one handed, while he was half asleep.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
He didn't really kill Tzeentch, though, if it was him/it. More like Tzeentch faking death. But I don't know, I haven't read that yet.

I agree about the Thirsters though.

If it was Tzeentch Magnus would have been swayed then and there. He is the Great Deceiver. Tzeentch is a Chaos God and thus one arrogant blowhard. He would never let himself be killed so easily in such an undignified matter.
Nope Magnus just crushed that Greater Daemon in his hands. While in the Warp.

Your denial doesn't change the fact that it was Tzeentch...

XXXX


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I think +1W gives him a 50% (Not sure on the maths though) better chance to survive a Pulsar or a Turbo-Laser Destructor.

Significant, and important since Pulsars and Turbolasers are a dime a dozen.

And Primordial, I think it was just Tzeentch sending some lesser essence of himself that he intended for Magnus to crush.

Tzeentch may be a god, but he loves nothing more than complicated plans and deception, which this is.

Now, back to the wounds?

There is no further need for discussion on the wounds, either he puts them in or he doesn't. It's a matter of what he wants to do. It's essentially pointless to put them on but there is no real unexplored argument as to whether or not he should put them on.

Where does it say it was Tzeentch?
I read the book and have it with me right now. Nowhere does it say that.

Is not directly stated but is so heavily implied that it is extremely obvious it's Tzeentch. As for him beating a bloodthirster easily no. Just no. Unless you have extreme psychic power you cannot just brush aside a bloodthirster. It is the avatar of the god of war (it's WS 10 for a reason). It is immensely skilled in combat to the point where it is more skilled with a blade than Horus or pre Hersey Angron. You don't just brush one aside. No matter the opponent, in CC a bloodthirster is never an easy kill.

XXXX

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
He costs far more, that is undoubtable. Go check the codex. It's less than 580, no matter what you throw at it, I assure you.

He is, fluffwise, stronger than a Codex Bloodthirster. Not stronger against Ka'bandha, perhaps. Or An'ggrath. But stronger than a non-special character Bloodthirster, certainly.

He is just as vulnerable to strength D, since it ignores his toughness and saves. Hence he needs to fly and have more wounds to be able to justify his price. Otherwise he'll be wiped off the table by a Pulsar turn 1 and that'd be sort of underwhelming for his cost.

Wounds matter next to nothing if he is being targeted by D weapons while on the ground he's dead anyway. Thus additional wounds add nothing and serve as inconsistencies according to fluff.

They serve to meet with the fluff, actually.
Primarchs casually crush vanilla greater daemons as shown multiple times throughout the HH.
Like how Magnus crushed that Minor (incredibly) Warp God in his hands, or what Guilliman did to Samus.
Fluffwise an Ascended Angron would be more powerful than An'ggrath given what Sanguinius did to Ka'Bandha (An'ggrath's equal), or how Lorgar crushed An'ggrath.

You get the very basic facts right of the fluff you reference but you always blow the event massively out of proportion. Firstly the God that Magnus crushed was actually Tzeentch taking the form of a snake to corrupt Magnus, Magnus did not kill him. Secondly Primarchs vary rarely "crush" grater daemons, they usually triumph through a great feat of arms and at great cost to themselves. Secondly how have you established that Ka'bandah was and is An'ggraths equal? The fact that they are both described as Khornes greatest servant is irrelevant as An'ggrath was formed after Ka'Bandah and is the new "most powerful servant of Khorne". Thirdly Lorgar did not crush An'ggrath. He very narrowly defeated him, sustaining injuries of such a degree that he collapsed in agony and exhaustion afterwards.
The logic that if one Primarch of 'X' strength defeats a certain daemon that is 'Y' strength does not mean that another Primarch who is stronger can suddenly easily defeat an opponent equal to strength 'Y'. This was discussed in another of your threads.
Therefore the fluff does not directly show that he should be awarded the number of wounds you have given him. Besides they make no real difference to him in the battles that you say you will be using him in. Flying yes makes a huge difference, hence my encouragement of putting it on him. An additional wound does not.

The snake wasn't Tzeentch. I'm pretty sure of that. And yeah that snake thing was killed.
And Magnus killing Tzeentch isn't blowing this out of proportion /
Ka'Bandha and An'ggrath are magnitudes stronger than normal Bloodthirsters and they were beaten by Primarchs.
That means that Angron could pretty handily mutilate a Bloodthirster. Before being Ascended to being a 30foot monstrosity telling Kharne to make Thrones from hundreds of skulls.

Actually read my post properly before you post. I specifically said that Magnus did not kill Tzeentch. And yes that serpent was tzeentch trying to corrupt Magnus. That is made very obvious in the book. Magnus merely disperses the incarnation, most likely by tzeentchs own will. Also another example of you hugely overblowing fluff. Where is he ever described as 30 foot?
Lastly I agree that Angron could mutilate a generic Bloodthrister but not easily by any means. In the end this has no relevant ego his wound statistics which is what we are discussing.

XXXX

In Betrayer his head reaches the top of the deck they have him restrained on, after his transformation is complete. 4 decks in every direction of the deck Angron is imprisoned on have their walls and floors become bleeding, scarred faces.
Statwise Angron unascended would beat a Bloodthirsters brains out, one handed, while he was half asleep.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
He didn't really kill Tzeentch, though, if it was him/it. More like Tzeentch faking death. But I don't know, I haven't read that yet.

I agree about the Thirsters though.

If it was Tzeentch Magnus would have been swayed then and there. He is the Great Deceiver. Tzeentch is a Chaos God and thus one arrogant blowhard. He would never let himself be killed so easily in such an undignified matter.
Nope Magnus just crushed that Greater Daemon in his hands. While in the Warp.

Your denial doesn't change the fact that it was Tzeentch...

XXXX


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I think +1W gives him a 50% (Not sure on the maths though) better chance to survive a Pulsar or a Turbo-Laser Destructor.

Significant, and important since Pulsars and Turbolasers are a dime a dozen.

And Primordial, I think it was just Tzeentch sending some lesser essence of himself that he intended for Magnus to crush.

Tzeentch may be a god, but he loves nothing more than complicated plans and deception, which this is.

Now, back to the wounds?

There is no further need for discussion on the wounds, either he puts them in or he doesn't. It's a matter of what he wants to do. It's essentially pointless to put them on but there is no real unexplored argument as to whether or not he should put them on.

Where does it say it was Tzeentch?
I read the book and have it with me right now. Nowhere does it say that.

Is not directly stated but is so heavily implied that it is extremely obvious it's Tzeentch.

Bro the whole point of the Gods in the HH is that they're an unseen presence guiding this entire Treason along.
Emphasis on Unseen.
Never is it implied that it is Tzeentch.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
He costs far more, that is undoubtable. Go check the codex. It's less than 580, no matter what you throw at it, I assure you.

He is, fluffwise, stronger than a Codex Bloodthirster. Not stronger against Ka'bandha, perhaps. Or An'ggrath. But stronger than a non-special character Bloodthirster, certainly.

He is just as vulnerable to strength D, since it ignores his toughness and saves. Hence he needs to fly and have more wounds to be able to justify his price. Otherwise he'll be wiped off the table by a Pulsar turn 1 and that'd be sort of underwhelming for his cost.

Wounds matter next to nothing if he is being targeted by D weapons while on the ground he's dead anyway. Thus additional wounds add nothing and serve as inconsistencies according to fluff.

They serve to meet with the fluff, actually.
Primarchs casually crush vanilla greater daemons as shown multiple times throughout the HH.
Like how Magnus crushed that Minor (incredibly) Warp God in his hands, or what Guilliman did to Samus.
Fluffwise an Ascended Angron would be more powerful than An'ggrath given what Sanguinius did to Ka'Bandha (An'ggrath's equal), or how Lorgar crushed An'ggrath.

You get the very basic facts right of the fluff you reference but you always blow the event massively out of proportion. Firstly the God that Magnus crushed was actually Tzeentch taking the form of a snake to corrupt Magnus, Magnus did not kill him. Secondly Primarchs vary rarely "crush" grater daemons, they usually triumph through a great feat of arms and at great cost to themselves. Secondly how have you established that Ka'bandah was and is An'ggraths equal? The fact that they are both described as Khornes greatest servant is irrelevant as An'ggrath was formed after Ka'Bandah and is the new "most powerful servant of Khorne". Thirdly Lorgar did not crush An'ggrath. He very narrowly defeated him, sustaining injuries of such a degree that he collapsed in agony and exhaustion afterwards.
The logic that if one Primarch of 'X' strength defeats a certain daemon that is 'Y' strength does not mean that another Primarch who is stronger can suddenly easily defeat an opponent equal to strength 'Y'. This was discussed in another of your threads.
Therefore the fluff does not directly show that he should be awarded the number of wounds you have given him. Besides they make no real difference to him in the battles that you say you will be using him in. Flying yes makes a huge difference, hence my encouragement of putting it on him. An additional wound does not.

The snake wasn't Tzeentch. I'm pretty sure of that. And yeah that snake thing was killed.
And Magnus killing Tzeentch isn't blowing this out of proportion /
Ka'Bandha and An'ggrath are magnitudes stronger than normal Bloodthirsters and they were beaten by Primarchs.
That means that Angron could pretty handily mutilate a Bloodthirster. Before being Ascended to being a 30foot monstrosity telling Kharne to make Thrones from hundreds of skulls.

Actually read my post properly before you post. I specifically said that Magnus did not kill Tzeentch. And yes that serpent was tzeentch trying to corrupt Magnus. That is made very obvious in the book. Magnus merely disperses the incarnation, most likely by tzeentchs own will. Also another example of you hugely overblowing fluff. Where is he ever described as 30 foot?
Lastly I agree that Angron could mutilate a generic Bloodthrister but not easily by any means. In the end this has no relevant ego his wound statistics which is what we are discussing.

XXXX

In Betrayer his head reaches the top of the deck they have him restrained on, after his transformation is complete. 4 decks in every direction of the deck Angron is imprisoned on have their walls and floors become bleeding, scarred faces.
Statwise Angron unascended would beat a Bloodthirsters brains out, one handed, while he was half asleep.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
He didn't really kill Tzeentch, though, if it was him/it. More like Tzeentch faking death. But I don't know, I haven't read that yet.

I agree about the Thirsters though.

If it was Tzeentch Magnus would have been swayed then and there. He is the Great Deceiver. Tzeentch is a Chaos God and thus one arrogant blowhard. He would never let himself be killed so easily in such an undignified matter.
Nope Magnus just crushed that Greater Daemon in his hands. While in the Warp.

Your denial doesn't change the fact that it was Tzeentch...

XXXX


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I think +1W gives him a 50% (Not sure on the maths though) better chance to survive a Pulsar or a Turbo-Laser Destructor.

Significant, and important since Pulsars and Turbolasers are a dime a dozen.

And Primordial, I think it was just Tzeentch sending some lesser essence of himself that he intended for Magnus to crush.

Tzeentch may be a god, but he loves nothing more than complicated plans and deception, which this is.

Now, back to the wounds?

There is no further need for discussion on the wounds, either he puts them in or he doesn't. It's a matter of what he wants to do. It's essentially pointless to put them on but there is no real unexplored argument as to whether or not he should put them on.

Where does it say it was Tzeentch?
I read the book and have it with me right now. Nowhere does it say that.

Is not directly stated but is so heavily implied that it is extremely obvious it's Tzeentch.

Bro the whole point of the Gods in the HH is that they're an unseen presence guiding this entire Treason along.
Emphasis on Unseen.
Never is it implied that it is Tzeentch.

This is total crap as Slaanesh often appears to mortals personally.
It is heavily implied that it is tzeentch to the point where it is actually written on the wiki page that it is tzeentch. It's widely accepted that it is tzeentch. Ask anybody with sense who has read the book!

XXXX

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
He costs far more, that is undoubtable. Go check the codex. It's less than 580, no matter what you throw at it, I assure you.

He is, fluffwise, stronger than a Codex Bloodthirster. Not stronger against Ka'bandha, perhaps. Or An'ggrath. But stronger than a non-special character Bloodthirster, certainly.

He is just as vulnerable to strength D, since it ignores his toughness and saves. Hence he needs to fly and have more wounds to be able to justify his price. Otherwise he'll be wiped off the table by a Pulsar turn 1 and that'd be sort of underwhelming for his cost.

Wounds matter next to nothing if he is being targeted by D weapons while on the ground he's dead anyway. Thus additional wounds add nothing and serve as inconsistencies according to fluff.

They serve to meet with the fluff, actually.
Primarchs casually crush vanilla greater daemons as shown multiple times throughout the HH.
Like how Magnus crushed that Minor (incredibly) Warp God in his hands, or what Guilliman did to Samus.
Fluffwise an Ascended Angron would be more powerful than An'ggrath given what Sanguinius did to Ka'Bandha (An'ggrath's equal), or how Lorgar crushed An'ggrath.

You get the very basic facts right of the fluff you reference but you always blow the event massively out of proportion. Firstly the God that Magnus crushed was actually Tzeentch taking the form of a snake to corrupt Magnus, Magnus did not kill him. Secondly Primarchs vary rarely "crush" grater daemons, they usually triumph through a great feat of arms and at great cost to themselves. Secondly how have you established that Ka'bandah was and is An'ggraths equal? The fact that they are both described as Khornes greatest servant is irrelevant as An'ggrath was formed after Ka'Bandah and is the new "most powerful servant of Khorne". Thirdly Lorgar did not crush An'ggrath. He very narrowly defeated him, sustaining injuries of such a degree that he collapsed in agony and exhaustion afterwards.
The logic that if one Primarch of 'X' strength defeats a certain daemon that is 'Y' strength does not mean that another Primarch who is stronger can suddenly easily defeat an opponent equal to strength 'Y'. This was discussed in another of your threads.
Therefore the fluff does not directly show that he should be awarded the number of wounds you have given him. Besides they make no real difference to him in the battles that you say you will be using him in. Flying yes makes a huge difference, hence my encouragement of putting it on him. An additional wound does not.

The snake wasn't Tzeentch. I'm pretty sure of that. And yeah that snake thing was killed.
And Magnus killing Tzeentch isn't blowing this out of proportion /
Ka'Bandha and An'ggrath are magnitudes stronger than normal Bloodthirsters and they were beaten by Primarchs.
That means that Angron could pretty handily mutilate a Bloodthirster. Before being Ascended to being a 30foot monstrosity telling Kharne to make Thrones from hundreds of skulls.

Actually read my post properly before you post. I specifically said that Magnus did not kill Tzeentch. And yes that serpent was tzeentch trying to corrupt Magnus. That is made very obvious in the book. Magnus merely disperses the incarnation, most likely by tzeentchs own will. Also another example of you hugely overblowing fluff. Where is he ever described as 30 foot?
Lastly I agree that Angron could mutilate a generic Bloodthrister but not easily by any means. In the end this has no relevant ego his wound statistics which is what we are discussing.

XXXX

In Betrayer his head reaches the top of the deck they have him restrained on, after his transformation is complete. 4 decks in every direction of the deck Angron is imprisoned on have their walls and floors become bleeding, scarred faces.
Statwise Angron unascended would beat a Bloodthirsters brains out, one handed, while he was half asleep.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
He didn't really kill Tzeentch, though, if it was him/it. More like Tzeentch faking death. But I don't know, I haven't read that yet.

I agree about the Thirsters though.

If it was Tzeentch Magnus would have been swayed then and there. He is the Great Deceiver. Tzeentch is a Chaos God and thus one arrogant blowhard. He would never let himself be killed so easily in such an undignified matter.
Nope Magnus just crushed that Greater Daemon in his hands. While in the Warp.

Your denial doesn't change the fact that it was Tzeentch...

XXXX


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I think +1W gives him a 50% (Not sure on the maths though) better chance to survive a Pulsar or a Turbo-Laser Destructor.

Significant, and important since Pulsars and Turbolasers are a dime a dozen.

And Primordial, I think it was just Tzeentch sending some lesser essence of himself that he intended for Magnus to crush.

Tzeentch may be a god, but he loves nothing more than complicated plans and deception, which this is.

Now, back to the wounds?

There is no further need for discussion on the wounds, either he puts them in or he doesn't. It's a matter of what he wants to do. It's essentially pointless to put them on but there is no real unexplored argument as to whether or not he should put them on.

Where does it say it was Tzeentch?
I read the book and have it with me right now. Nowhere does it say that.

Is not directly stated but is so heavily implied that it is extremely obvious it's Tzeentch.

Bro the whole point of the Gods in the HH is that they're an unseen presence guiding this entire Treason along.
Emphasis on Unseen.
Never is it implied that it is Tzeentch.

This is total crap as Slaanesh often appears to mortals personally.
It is heavily implied that it is tzeentch to the point where it is actually written on the wiki page that it is tzeentch. It's widely accepted that it is tzeentch. Ask anybody with sense who has read the book!

XXXX

I'm only talking about the HH series of books. I made that very clear.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
He costs far more, that is undoubtable. Go check the codex. It's less than 580, no matter what you throw at it, I assure you.

He is, fluffwise, stronger than a Codex Bloodthirster. Not stronger against Ka'bandha, perhaps. Or An'ggrath. But stronger than a non-special character Bloodthirster, certainly.

He is just as vulnerable to strength D, since it ignores his toughness and saves. Hence he needs to fly and have more wounds to be able to justify his price. Otherwise he'll be wiped off the table by a Pulsar turn 1 and that'd be sort of underwhelming for his cost.

Wounds matter next to nothing if he is being targeted by D weapons while on the ground he's dead anyway. Thus additional wounds add nothing and serve as inconsistencies according to fluff.

They serve to meet with the fluff, actually.
Primarchs casually crush vanilla greater daemons as shown multiple times throughout the HH.
Like how Magnus crushed that Minor (incredibly) Warp God in his hands, or what Guilliman did to Samus.
Fluffwise an Ascended Angron would be more powerful than An'ggrath given what Sanguinius did to Ka'Bandha (An'ggrath's equal), or how Lorgar crushed An'ggrath.

You get the very basic facts right of the fluff you reference but you always blow the event massively out of proportion. Firstly the God that Magnus crushed was actually Tzeentch taking the form of a snake to corrupt Magnus, Magnus did not kill him. Secondly Primarchs vary rarely "crush" grater daemons, they usually triumph through a great feat of arms and at great cost to themselves. Secondly how have you established that Ka'bandah was and is An'ggraths equal? The fact that they are both described as Khornes greatest servant is irrelevant as An'ggrath was formed after Ka'Bandah and is the new "most powerful servant of Khorne". Thirdly Lorgar did not crush An'ggrath. He very narrowly defeated him, sustaining injuries of such a degree that he collapsed in agony and exhaustion afterwards.
The logic that if one Primarch of 'X' strength defeats a certain daemon that is 'Y' strength does not mean that another Primarch who is stronger can suddenly easily defeat an opponent equal to strength 'Y'. This was discussed in another of your threads.
Therefore the fluff does not directly show that he should be awarded the number of wounds you have given him. Besides they make no real difference to him in the battles that you say you will be using him in. Flying yes makes a huge difference, hence my encouragement of putting it on him. An additional wound does not.

The snake wasn't Tzeentch. I'm pretty sure of that. And yeah that snake thing was killed.
And Magnus killing Tzeentch isn't blowing this out of proportion /
Ka'Bandha and An'ggrath are magnitudes stronger than normal Bloodthirsters and they were beaten by Primarchs.
That means that Angron could pretty handily mutilate a Bloodthirster. Before being Ascended to being a 30foot monstrosity telling Kharne to make Thrones from hundreds of skulls.

Actually read my post properly before you post. I specifically said that Magnus did not kill Tzeentch. And yes that serpent was tzeentch trying to corrupt Magnus. That is made very obvious in the book. Magnus merely disperses the incarnation, most likely by tzeentchs own will. Also another example of you hugely overblowing fluff. Where is he ever described as 30 foot?
Lastly I agree that Angron could mutilate a generic Bloodthrister but not easily by any means. In the end this has no relevant ego his wound statistics which is what we are discussing.

XXXX

In Betrayer his head reaches the top of the deck they have him restrained on, after his transformation is complete. 4 decks in every direction of the deck Angron is imprisoned on have their walls and floors become bleeding, scarred faces.
Statwise Angron unascended would beat a Bloodthirsters brains out, one handed, while he was half asleep.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
He didn't really kill Tzeentch, though, if it was him/it. More like Tzeentch faking death. But I don't know, I haven't read that yet.

I agree about the Thirsters though.

If it was Tzeentch Magnus would have been swayed then and there. He is the Great Deceiver. Tzeentch is a Chaos God and thus one arrogant blowhard. He would never let himself be killed so easily in such an undignified matter.
Nope Magnus just crushed that Greater Daemon in his hands. While in the Warp.

Your denial doesn't change the fact that it was Tzeentch...

XXXX


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I think +1W gives him a 50% (Not sure on the maths though) better chance to survive a Pulsar or a Turbo-Laser Destructor.

Significant, and important since Pulsars and Turbolasers are a dime a dozen.

And Primordial, I think it was just Tzeentch sending some lesser essence of himself that he intended for Magnus to crush.

Tzeentch may be a god, but he loves nothing more than complicated plans and deception, which this is.

Now, back to the wounds?

There is no further need for discussion on the wounds, either he puts them in or he doesn't. It's a matter of what he wants to do. It's essentially pointless to put them on but there is no real unexplored argument as to whether or not he should put them on.

Where does it say it was Tzeentch?
I read the book and have it with me right now. Nowhere does it say that.

Is not directly stated but is so heavily implied that it is extremely obvious it's Tzeentch.

Bro the whole point of the Gods in the HH is that they're an unseen presence guiding this entire Treason along.
Emphasis on Unseen.
Never is it implied that it is Tzeentch.

This is total crap as Slaanesh often appears to mortals personally.
It is heavily implied that it is tzeentch to the point where it is actually written on the wiki page that it is tzeentch. It's widely accepted that it is tzeentch. Ask anybody with sense who has read the book!

XXXX

I'm only talking about the HH series of books. I made that very clear.

What exactly is your point? It is tzeentch in the cave and I have sourced another person/people who agree with this claim. I have also proved that gods have been known to appear to mortals on a whim. Also you say tzeentch would easily persuade him to fall to his cause. Well yeah that's kinda what he does... In fact later in the book it may even make reference to the serpent under the mountain being the "great deceiver".

XXXX

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
He costs far more, that is undoubtable. Go check the codex. It's less than 580, no matter what you throw at it, I assure you.

He is, fluffwise, stronger than a Codex Bloodthirster. Not stronger against Ka'bandha, perhaps. Or An'ggrath. But stronger than a non-special character Bloodthirster, certainly.

He is just as vulnerable to strength D, since it ignores his toughness and saves. Hence he needs to fly and have more wounds to be able to justify his price. Otherwise he'll be wiped off the table by a Pulsar turn 1 and that'd be sort of underwhelming for his cost.

Wounds matter next to nothing if he is being targeted by D weapons while on the ground he's dead anyway. Thus additional wounds add nothing and serve as inconsistencies according to fluff.

They serve to meet with the fluff, actually.
Primarchs casually crush vanilla greater daemons as shown multiple times throughout the HH.
Like how Magnus crushed that Minor (incredibly) Warp God in his hands, or what Guilliman did to Samus.
Fluffwise an Ascended Angron would be more powerful than An'ggrath given what Sanguinius did to Ka'Bandha (An'ggrath's equal), or how Lorgar crushed An'ggrath.

You get the very basic facts right of the fluff you reference but you always blow the event massively out of proportion. Firstly the God that Magnus crushed was actually Tzeentch taking the form of a snake to corrupt Magnus, Magnus did not kill him. Secondly Primarchs vary rarely "crush" grater daemons, they usually triumph through a great feat of arms and at great cost to themselves. Secondly how have you established that Ka'bandah was and is An'ggraths equal? The fact that they are both described as Khornes greatest servant is irrelevant as An'ggrath was formed after Ka'Bandah and is the new "most powerful servant of Khorne". Thirdly Lorgar did not crush An'ggrath. He very narrowly defeated him, sustaining injuries of such a degree that he collapsed in agony and exhaustion afterwards.
The logic that if one Primarch of 'X' strength defeats a certain daemon that is 'Y' strength does not mean that another Primarch who is stronger can suddenly easily defeat an opponent equal to strength 'Y'. This was discussed in another of your threads.
Therefore the fluff does not directly show that he should be awarded the number of wounds you have given him. Besides they make no real difference to him in the battles that you say you will be using him in. Flying yes makes a huge difference, hence my encouragement of putting it on him. An additional wound does not.

The snake wasn't Tzeentch. I'm pretty sure of that. And yeah that snake thing was killed.
And Magnus killing Tzeentch isn't blowing this out of proportion /
Ka'Bandha and An'ggrath are magnitudes stronger than normal Bloodthirsters and they were beaten by Primarchs.
That means that Angron could pretty handily mutilate a Bloodthirster. Before being Ascended to being a 30foot monstrosity telling Kharne to make Thrones from hundreds of skulls.

Actually read my post properly before you post. I specifically said that Magnus did not kill Tzeentch. And yes that serpent was tzeentch trying to corrupt Magnus. That is made very obvious in the book. Magnus merely disperses the incarnation, most likely by tzeentchs own will. Also another example of you hugely overblowing fluff. Where is he ever described as 30 foot?
Lastly I agree that Angron could mutilate a generic Bloodthrister but not easily by any means. In the end this has no relevant ego his wound statistics which is what we are discussing.

XXXX

In Betrayer his head reaches the top of the deck they have him restrained on, after his transformation is complete. 4 decks in every direction of the deck Angron is imprisoned on have their walls and floors become bleeding, scarred faces.
Statwise Angron unascended would beat a Bloodthirsters brains out, one handed, while he was half asleep.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
He didn't really kill Tzeentch, though, if it was him/it. More like Tzeentch faking death. But I don't know, I haven't read that yet.

I agree about the Thirsters though.

If it was Tzeentch Magnus would have been swayed then and there. He is the Great Deceiver. Tzeentch is a Chaos God and thus one arrogant blowhard. He would never let himself be killed so easily in such an undignified matter.
Nope Magnus just crushed that Greater Daemon in his hands. While in the Warp.

Your denial doesn't change the fact that it was Tzeentch...

XXXX


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I think +1W gives him a 50% (Not sure on the maths though) better chance to survive a Pulsar or a Turbo-Laser Destructor.

Significant, and important since Pulsars and Turbolasers are a dime a dozen.

And Primordial, I think it was just Tzeentch sending some lesser essence of himself that he intended for Magnus to crush.

Tzeentch may be a god, but he loves nothing more than complicated plans and deception, which this is.

Now, back to the wounds?

There is no further need for discussion on the wounds, either he puts them in or he doesn't. It's a matter of what he wants to do. It's essentially pointless to put them on but there is no real unexplored argument as to whether or not he should put them on.

Where does it say it was Tzeentch?
I read the book and have it with me right now. Nowhere does it say that.

Is not directly stated but is so heavily implied that it is extremely obvious it's Tzeentch.

Bro the whole point of the Gods in the HH is that they're an unseen presence guiding this entire Treason along.
Emphasis on Unseen.
Never is it implied that it is Tzeentch.

This is total crap as Slaanesh often appears to mortals personally.
It is heavily implied that it is tzeentch to the point where it is actually written on the wiki page that it is tzeentch. It's widely accepted that it is tzeentch. Ask anybody with sense who has read the book!

XXXX

I'm only talking about the HH series of books. I made that very clear.

What exactly is your point? It is tzeentch in the cave and I have sourced another person/people who agree with this claim. I have also proved that gods have been known to appear to mortals on a whim. Also you say tzeentch would easily persuade him to fall to his cause. Well yeah that's kinda what he does... In fact later in the book it may even make reference to the serpent under the mountain being the "great deceiver".

XXXX

I'd like it to be known the only reason I'm in this argument is to see how many "quotes" 1 post can possibly contain.
Lets agree to disagree on this one.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
He costs far more, that is undoubtable. Go check the codex. It's less than 580, no matter what you throw at it, I assure you.

He is, fluffwise, stronger than a Codex Bloodthirster. Not stronger against Ka'bandha, perhaps. Or An'ggrath. But stronger than a non-special character Bloodthirster, certainly.

He is just as vulnerable to strength D, since it ignores his toughness and saves. Hence he needs to fly and have more wounds to be able to justify his price. Otherwise he'll be wiped off the table by a Pulsar turn 1 and that'd be sort of underwhelming for his cost.

Wounds matter next to nothing if he is being targeted by D weapons while on the ground he's dead anyway. Thus additional wounds add nothing and serve as inconsistencies according to fluff.

They serve to meet with the fluff, actually.
Primarchs casually crush vanilla greater daemons as shown multiple times throughout the HH.
Like how Magnus crushed that Minor (incredibly) Warp God in his hands, or what Guilliman did to Samus.
Fluffwise an Ascended Angron would be more powerful than An'ggrath given what Sanguinius did to Ka'Bandha (An'ggrath's equal), or how Lorgar crushed An'ggrath.

You get the very basic facts right of the fluff you reference but you always blow the event massively out of proportion. Firstly the God that Magnus crushed was actually Tzeentch taking the form of a snake to corrupt Magnus, Magnus did not kill him. Secondly Primarchs vary rarely "crush" grater daemons, they usually triumph through a great feat of arms and at great cost to themselves. Secondly how have you established that Ka'bandah was and is An'ggraths equal? The fact that they are both described as Khornes greatest servant is irrelevant as An'ggrath was formed after Ka'Bandah and is the new "most powerful servant of Khorne". Thirdly Lorgar did not crush An'ggrath. He very narrowly defeated him, sustaining injuries of such a degree that he collapsed in agony and exhaustion afterwards.
The logic that if one Primarch of 'X' strength defeats a certain daemon that is 'Y' strength does not mean that another Primarch who is stronger can suddenly easily defeat an opponent equal to strength 'Y'. This was discussed in another of your threads.
Therefore the fluff does not directly show that he should be awarded the number of wounds you have given him. Besides they make no real difference to him in the battles that you say you will be using him in. Flying yes makes a huge difference, hence my encouragement of putting it on him. An additional wound does not.

The snake wasn't Tzeentch. I'm pretty sure of that. And yeah that snake thing was killed.
And Magnus killing Tzeentch isn't blowing this out of proportion /
Ka'Bandha and An'ggrath are magnitudes stronger than normal Bloodthirsters and they were beaten by Primarchs.
That means that Angron could pretty handily mutilate a Bloodthirster. Before being Ascended to being a 30foot monstrosity telling Kharne to make Thrones from hundreds of skulls.

Actually read my post properly before you post. I specifically said that Magnus did not kill Tzeentch. And yes that serpent was tzeentch trying to corrupt Magnus. That is made very obvious in the book. Magnus merely disperses the incarnation, most likely by tzeentchs own will. Also another example of you hugely overblowing fluff. Where is he ever described as 30 foot?
Lastly I agree that Angron could mutilate a generic Bloodthrister but not easily by any means. In the end this has no relevant ego his wound statistics which is what we are discussing.

XXXX

In Betrayer his head reaches the top of the deck they have him restrained on, after his transformation is complete. 4 decks in every direction of the deck Angron is imprisoned on have their walls and floors become bleeding, scarred faces.
Statwise Angron unascended would beat a Bloodthirsters brains out, one handed, while he was half asleep.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
He didn't really kill Tzeentch, though, if it was him/it. More like Tzeentch faking death. But I don't know, I haven't read that yet.

I agree about the Thirsters though.

If it was Tzeentch Magnus would have been swayed then and there. He is the Great Deceiver. Tzeentch is a Chaos God and thus one arrogant blowhard. He would never let himself be killed so easily in such an undignified matter.
Nope Magnus just crushed that Greater Daemon in his hands. While in the Warp.

Your denial doesn't change the fact that it was Tzeentch...

XXXX


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I think +1W gives him a 50% (Not sure on the maths though) better chance to survive a Pulsar or a Turbo-Laser Destructor.

Significant, and important since Pulsars and Turbolasers are a dime a dozen.

And Primordial, I think it was just Tzeentch sending some lesser essence of himself that he intended for Magnus to crush.

Tzeentch may be a god, but he loves nothing more than complicated plans and deception, which this is.

Now, back to the wounds?

There is no further need for discussion on the wounds, either he puts them in or he doesn't. It's a matter of what he wants to do. It's essentially pointless to put them on but there is no real unexplored argument as to whether or not he should put them on.

Where does it say it was Tzeentch?
I read the book and have it with me right now. Nowhere does it say that.

Is not directly stated but is so heavily implied that it is extremely obvious it's Tzeentch.

Bro the whole point of the Gods in the HH is that they're an unseen presence guiding this entire Treason along.
Emphasis on Unseen.
Never is it implied that it is Tzeentch.

This is total crap as Slaanesh often appears to mortals personally.
It is heavily implied that it is tzeentch to the point where it is actually written on the wiki page that it is tzeentch. It's widely accepted that it is tzeentch. Ask anybody with sense who has read the book!

XXXX

I'm only talking about the HH series of books. I made that very clear.

What exactly is your point? It is tzeentch in the cave and I have sourced another person/people who agree with this claim. I have also proved that gods have been known to appear to mortals on a whim. Also you say tzeentch would easily persuade him to fall to his cause. Well yeah that's kinda what he does... In fact later in the book it may even make reference to the serpent under the mountain being the "great deceiver".

XXXX

I'd like it to be known the only reason I'm in this argument is to see how many "quotes" 1 post can possibly contain.
Lets agree to disagree on this one.

Nah screw it lets quote some more

XXXX

Guuuuys. Quote pyramids are bad.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Guuuuys. Quote pyramids are bad.

No their not.

XXXX

Going to hell is wrong on this, that deamon is not tzeench nor is it even remotely hinted at, an agent of tzeench certainly, but not the God itself

Slaanesh often appears to mortals often does shim, Care to provide any citations as that's not in any of the bl novels I have ever read, I ask out of interest as I would like to read it too.

On topic: a powerful deamon Prince would have 5 wounds, it's not unreasonable that angron would have 6/7, especially for 600+ pts, infact I would go balls to the wall crazy here and make him 800pts and beef him up more.

Bring back armourbane too as mc do not get an additional d6 pen anymore, just re roll pen for smash

Daemon Primarch Angron. 680 points
WS:10/ BS:8/ S:8/ T:7/ W:7/ I:8/ A:7/ LD:10/ SV:3+/4++
Unit Type: Flying Gargantuan Creature (Character)
Wargear: Black Blade of Angron, Demonic Armor, Collar of Khorne, Wings
Black Blade of Angron: S:+2, AP:1, Master Crafted, Fleshbane, Murderous Strike
Special Rules: Rage, Rampage, Primarch (Eternal Warrior, It Will Not Die, Fleet, Adamantium Will, Fearless, Fear), God of War, Sire of the World Eaters, Fearsome, Living Icon, The Cruor Praetoria, Feel No Pain
Living Icon: Angron can function as a sort of teleport homer for lesser daemons. Lesser Daemons may be summoned adjacent to Angron.
Fearsome: Enemies who must take a Fear test do so at -2 Leadership.
God of War: All models within 12" of Angron have the Rage and Furious Charge rules.
Sire of the World Eaters: All Khorne Berserkers may use Angron's Leadership and may always regroup as if they had more than 25% of the unit remaining.
The Cruor Praetoria: Angron is so powerful that his bodyguard is composed of some of the most powerful daemons and daemon princes Khorne has to offer. Angron may choose up to 12 Bloodthirsters (Chosen from Codex: Daemons) or Daemon Princes of Khorne (Chosen from either Codex: Daemons or Codex: Chaos Space Marines). He may mix and match as he sees fit, so the Bloodguard could be composed of 4 Bloodthirsters and 8 Daemon Princes of Khorne, for example. If Daemon Princes are chosen at all, they must have Wings.

I like it. I would take him.