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 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
That stacked on top of the other revelations in this thread makes him an ass that I wouldn't enjoy playing. So I wouldn't.

Taking way too long to set your models each and every turn is asinine. Especially in a "friendly" game.

These sound like problems with the game, not the people. He's following the rules, using the 'tactical' allowances in the rules, and playing in a way he obviously enjoys. Knowing nothing else about him, I can't judge him as an ass from that alone. He maybe be an ass, I don't know, but judging him as one on the way he takes a while to move models seems a little extreme to me.

But again, all this stems from the game and the rules that create scenarios like this. If the cover system made sense, if TLOS was removed, if any number of changes were made, this sort of thing wouldn't exist.

Get some IH Stormravens and Tau missilesides. The helldrakes will crash and burn.

 kronk wrote:
From the guy's reaction to criticism, it still sounds like he doesn't know what to do in social situations.

However, as I don't know jack about aspergers, so I could be off.

I have aspergers syndrome!

The way I see it, this is coming from someone with a different army. If he can field it, you need to deal with it. So he has a very Air Force heavy list. You gotta find a way to deal with it. Or don't play the guy.

This does not have a single thing to do with the rules. If someone doesnt like the rules, they may do their own house rules when playing at home or play a different game.
It is 100% the behavior of the player. Some are just so competitive that they will treat every single game, even friendly ones, as though it was the final game of the world tournament and lives were on the line. The trash talking and stealing of other's miniatures are the characteristics of TFG or a total jerk.
So you are having characteristics of two seperate types of gamer, unfortubnately, when one person exhibits BOTH of these together, you just get someone your better off not playing to begin with. OR you can follow some of the other suggestions such as out-cheesing him or limiting the games to a single force org chart.

This is all about the rules GW put out. People can't be held responsible for taking legal options in their list. The *options themselves* should be better balanced, so this kind of thing is *impossible*. Gamers are not known for self-nerfing. They are known for power gaming.

People like this who complain and moan about how the list is cheesy instead of finding ways to beat it really bug me. Is it a nasty army? Yes, is it unbeatable? Hell no, if he has 6 flyers just realize that you need to bring some more anti-air or even "Mech Up" your army. Someone brought a nearly identical list to our store and he lost EVERY GAME, once to my own flyer heavy Elysians and then to a Deathwing DA army as it was pure landraiders and Landraider Crusaders and his Helldrakes were useless. Its not an unbeatable list, people just need to change up their tactics, or as others have mentioned, say you don't want to play double FOC.

Land Raiders. The tin can that laughs at heldrakes, but gets smoked by everything else!

Land Raiders make this guy cry. I mean, if someone spams LR Helios, 6 turkeys becomes a disadvantage.

Lucarikx

Two separate issues here:

1) the OP's question: how do you tactically play against this? Take any tournament style Tau or Eldar list at this level and you have a decent chance. Tau are particularly well prepped for this at this level. Easy to take 6x2 missile side units with EWO. Riptides should be tearing his zombies down well before he gets a chance to get near you.



2) is he a douche? Which the OP is stating is not their question, but they have obviously brought up at the same time. I haven't met him, but he sounds like he is annoying and a bit rude.

In the UK there isn't much dual FOC play. It's mostly 1500/1750/1850. I guess single org reduces the chances of kinda dull games.

This does not have a single thing to do with the actual rules. if that were the case, each and every single player who plays 40k would be 'this way", so the whole "its the rules fault" theory is bogus.
It is 100% the issue of the player himself.

Blaming the player rather than the rules only means that you don't like the way someone else plays.

If someone genuinely enjoys playing a list with heldrakes and cultists, then they shouldn't be berated and told they're horrible people because you don't like it. They might think the same of you for running a helter skelter marine list, or rough riders, or any other combination.

It is absolutely a rules issue. If the rules/game were balanced, there wouldn't be this arbitrary line between what constitutes 'casual, fun, rainbow' lists and 'I'm gong to club baby seals and eat your first born child competitive' lists.

Don't act like playing a more 'casual' list makes you a superior gamer who plays only for fun. Different strokes and all that.

Don't judge people on the lists they play or how they play the game, but on how they act and behave. A list does not equal a person.

techsoldaten wrote:I was there last night and got to watch that guy play a game. In addition to his army choice, it turns out he's a legitimate hard case. Throughout the game, he was laughing to himself over choices his opponent made and telling him things like 'you aren't going to win, might as well give up.' At one point, he decided the time had come for arguments about the rules. He spent 45 minutes trying to make a case for why it was legal to tank shock his own zombies with a Predator (which seemed like he was really just trying to move a zombie blob up a couple extra inches). I thought that guy was about to start yelling throughout the entire game.

His movement phases all took like 20 minutes and he positions every model on the board around terrain. The highlight of the game happened when his glasses fell off and knocked some models around. He was putting his Obliterators back upright and moved them like a foot away from where they were into cover. We called him on it, he said he wasn't cheating but had a stigmatism that messed up his depth perception.

When they were cleaning up, the Tau player couldn't find some of his models. I think that guy is keeping trophies to boot.

techsoldaten wrote:
The other thing I forgot to mention about that guy is last night he talked to me about painting. I was there to paint. He described his armies as being painted to a high standard, which meant 3 color schemes. He literally painted 3 colors on each model - like with the zombies - flesh on the fleshy parts, blue on the cloth parts, brown on the boots, all block colors. No shading, no highlighting, just flat colors.

Just wanted to remind everyone that, based on the above quotes, the guy IS a pretty large tool.

The significant problem is that people at his FLGS are starting to think CSM are overpowered and not wanting to play against the codex. The OP happens to play CSM, so he's feeling the effects of this guys dooshyness by simply playing the same army (not list) as the offender. It's crazy to think that a FLGS that has Tau and Eldar players are complaining about CSM, but every meta is different...

There's one guy at my LGS that I refuse to play, but he doesn't know it. I don't have to be rude to him to not play him...I just will not ever accept a game against him. I assume that if everyone did the same, he's quit coming around as often...

You need to point out to your crew although they struggle with this one chaos space marine list, that doesn't mean all chaos space marine lists are too powerful for them.

It's absurd to refuse to play against a Khorne ground pounding list because they don't like nurgle zombies and heldrakes!

Edit: Still, there is plenty of variety in the chaos codex once you step away from plaguedrake lists. If CSM players get completely ostracized you can always have plenty of interesting games against eachother :p

 Voidwraith wrote:

Just wanted to remind everyone that, based on the above quotes, the guy IS a pretty large tool.

The significant problem is that people at his FLGS are starting to think CSM are overpowered and not wanting to play against the codex. The OP happens to play CSM, so he's feeling the effects of this guys dooshyness by simply playing the same army (not list) as the offender. It's crazy to think that a FLGS that has Tau and Eldar players are complaining about CSM, but every meta is different...

There's one guy at my LGS that I refuse to play, but he doesn't know it. I don't have to be rude to him to not play him...I just will not ever accept a game against him. I assume that if everyone did the same, he's quit coming around as often...

Might be better to say he's an enigma and leave it at that. There's a part of me that finds him repulsive, and a part of me that recognizes he is an above average player.

Like when he was arguing about the rules for the predator being able to tank shock his own troops, it was this complicated argument about the model being stuck between 2 blobs and having to move because of some other coherency issue (can't have 2 units pass through each other). While we eventually all agreed he had to leave the tank where it was, I had this feeling I was really missing some point I just couldn't appreciate. It's easy to see there's some brilliance in what he does with those zombies, he gets a ton of them up the board.

Not sure what to make of it, but calling him names just seems wrong. I know his list makes some people mad, it will be interesting to see how people adjust. I have put together a short list of the suggestions from this thread and will be talking them through with other people at my FLGS this weekend. It's pretty awesome how this forum can come together to share ideas.

And I might take photos of some of those models if he comes around.

 EVIL INC wrote:
This does not have a single thing to do with the actual rules. if that were the case, each and every single player who plays 40k would be 'this way", so the whole "its the rules fault" theory is bogus.
It is 100% the issue of the player himself.

It is the rules fault. Helldrakes are undercosted and there are not real alternatives in the CSM fast attack slot. Quit expecting people to self-nerf.

Wait does his list even have a way to deal with 1 land raider?

Would be funny to win the game with only 1 land raider ala Codex Inqusition.

Actually, I have seem him in a game versus 2. Like I said, he hasn't lost any games with this list. He has more than Heldrakes and Zombies, those are just the spam. Obliterators kill LRs just fine.

LRs are a non-solution. They have a horrible pt/dakka ratio.

Martel732 wrote:
LRs are a non-solution. They have a horrible pt/dakka ratio.

But to completely nullify major aspects of a spam list (Heldrake cant touch it and nether can the zombies) is totally worth the points.

But with Oblits and other things it might be tougher.

Maybe, but against non-Helldrake spamming lists, they are kinda meh. I never advocate list tailoring. Marine air cav is far more versatile than LRs.

Blaming the rules and totally forgiving the player gives them a free pass to do literally anything they like, cheat, steal models (where oes the rules say to do that anyway?).
The simple fact is that if the rules caused people to act this way, each and every single 40k player worldwide would be doing the things this guy is doing and this thread would not have even been started because that sort of behavior would not only be the norm but it is what would be expected. This proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that the rules do not have a single iota of responsibility for the behavior displayed by this player. If rule bashing is your agenda, by all means start a thread on it but as it has nothing to do with THIS thread, we can move past that and address the ACTUAL issue, which is his behavior.
Sorry, saying "the rules MADE me take a cheesy spam list and MADE me act like a jerk and MADE me trash talk and insult my opponents, and MADE me take 20 minutes mathmatically GPSing each and every single model on the table and they MADE me steal other player's models is a cop out.
the 6 helldrakes are not the problem. There have been a dozen or more different ways to nullify them using the same rules. Purposely letting someone beat me because I am afraid to respond in kind to spank him into taking reasonable lists or ask him to play a lower point cost game or to limit the game to a single force org does not mean the rules are making me not do those things.
Unitil someone addresses the ACTUAL issue, it will continue. Sitting around placing blame elsewhere instead of taking responsibility for my own actgions or holding someone else responsible for their own actions just doesnt cut it for me.

Wow. You are really silly. That is a serious slippery slope argument. I'm not talking about trash talking or any of that crap. I'm talking about list construction.

6 drakes are LEGAL and FAIR in a double FOC game. It is 100% GW's fault that this set up is legal.

Players are not going to self nerf to give other players a better experience. GW needs to write rules that take this into account. They are denying reality with their current philosophy.

You have proven nothing other than perhaps you share GWs pollyanna view of gamers. If GW wrote better rules, these players you are talking about WOULD BE TOTALLY HELPLESS to make these kinds of lists.

If you read through the thread, you will see that the 6 birds are not the issue at ll. The actual issue is his trash talking and his stealing models and his taking so long to move his models.
the thread is not actually about list construction at all. The OP has ben given a dozen or more ways to spank down that list easily. thats the problem with any one trick pony list, another one can out trick it.

Does that mean that i dont think that there are issues with the rules? No it does not. I can think of several issues off the top of my head. The simple fact though is that many people pin EVERY single issue that ever arises on the rules and jumps up on a soapbox with the ANTI GW agenda. Personally, I think they started off with a great product but have been running it into the ground over the years.that doesnt mean I'm going to blame ehavior issues on them. o do that WOULD be a slippery slope. I am ony holding the man responsible for his own actions. I take full responsibility for my own and I expect others to do the same.
likewise, the players who are complaining abouthis actual list ARE self nerfing. they have the knowledge and resources to beat him but refuse to do so.

again, the issue is not his list at all and no matter how poorly written or grandly written the rules are, they just do not have a single thing to do with his behavior.

now, if i wanted to talk about how bad the rules are, i would start a thread about it instead of hijacking another unrelated thread.

Yeah, some people are jerks. Welcome to gaming. I suspect a few losses will fix his behaviour as well. GW enables jerks by letting them build bully lists.

If a person is a terrible gamer, leave the list out of it. At this point its the players in the local area who will decide what is cool and what isn't.

If the list isn't the issue, then tactically there's nothing left to discuss.

If the list is the issue, then I suggest you look at how you play and consider that someone else may enjoy playing the game differently.

But once more, all this boils down to the fact that 40k is a pooly balanced game that creates artificial boundaries between so called 'casual' and 'competitive.

Which has nothing to do with the out of game behavior of the players which this thread is about.

This is one of the very few cases in 6th where a dreadnought is useful.A metal one.Inside a sock.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Which has nothing to do with the out of game behavior of the players which this thread is about.

Did you read the original post? He's asking for tactical advice for fighting a 6 helldrake list. People MADE it about player behavior.

Most people have been giving -very- sound tactical advice. Such as refusing to play against lists you don't like. Sounds like a great way to get games in.

What really stumps me is how he mentioned 30% of his FLGS played TAU which have the MOST access to skyfire and interceptor in the game. It's really their own faults if they choose not to adjust their army list to combat a new threat, especially if they have all the tools available to them.

If it wasn't for model count (and henceforth cost), I'd run this as Orks:

HQ:
Grotsnik
2x Big Mek w/ SAG, Cyborks

HS:
4x 15 Lootaz, Cyborks
1x 14 Lootaz, Cyborks

Troops:
4x 10 Gretchin + Runtherd

This is a point-perfect 2000p list. Stupid and list-taylored, yes. But might just be funny.