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Except that Flyers can end their movement above models, even if they have to respect the 1" away from the base, you do has with the Wobbly models rule, you place a token where the Thing is reality, even if the base and model are before that.
Pg80 flyers and movement.
This is incorrect. Wobbly model only allows you to mark position for a model that you can place legally, but not physically. In all instances, you treat the model as if it were in the marked position. Is that position legal? No: There are enemy models within 1" and a flyer cannot be placed within 1" of such a model.
It doesn't even work for landing with your base over your own models. Other models are treated as impassable terrain. Flyers/skimmers/jump units may land on impassable terrain, but only if they can be physically placed at that location, which disallows use of the wobbly model rule. In addition I believe there is, toward the beginning of the book, a specific restriction against stacking models (other than wrecked vehicles, which are then terrain anyhow).
I am a grammar Nazi only because grammar democracy is ineffective.
I'm pretty sure some of the battlefield obstacles from stronghold assault would be good here too. Razor wire being dangerous terrain for infantry or something ~ if enough zombies walk over it they'll just cut themselves to shreds on a "1"
The vector strike specifies side armor on vehicles.
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Except that Flyers can end their movement above models, even if they have to respect the 1" away from the base, you do has with the Wobbly models rule, you place a token where the Thing is reality, even if the base and model are before that.
Pg80 flyers and movement.
This is incorrect. Wobbly model only allows you to mark position for a model that you can place legally, but not physically. In all instances, you treat the model as if it were in the marked position. Is that position legal? No: There are enemy models within 1" and a flyer cannot be placed within 1" of such a model.
It doesn't even work for landing with your base over your own models. Other models are treated as impassable terrain. Flyers/skimmers/jump units may land on impassable terrain, but only if they can be physically placed at that location, which disallows use of the wobbly model rule. In addition I believe there is, toward the beginning of the book, a specific restriction against stacking models (other than wrecked vehicles, which are then terrain anyhow).
Pg 80, says that a Flyer can end his movement over other models, that other models that can physically passe under can do it, and that ennemy models must be at 1" form its base.
While he still must respect the 1" from ennemy models, the Flyer can still end his movement over those models, you then use the Wobbly model rule, just like you stated, if you can't put the model, but you could legally put it there, you place a marker.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/07 10:33:31
With necrons it would be really easy to beat that list. Run mech spam.
6 annihilation barges is enough to make most armies wet themselves.
3 units of warriors in ghost arks
4 units of warriors in night scythes
Overlord.
If you roll 10 warriors in each ark, you have 30 shots within 12" at plague zombies, which are super slow and you can easily outrun. Heldrakes are vector striking your AV13 armor and glancing on a 6, so they are useless now, even with the autocannon, unless they can hit rear armor they are not hurting anything.
4 night scythes will be able to make some quick work of the drakes as well. On the flipside, you could go full on air force, but then you lack the amount of shots needed to take out some zombies who might make it to an objective. Or spread out enough to box your fliers in.
Best of all is that alst turn you can drop warriors out of all your vehicles to contest as much as you want.
I think your best answer to this problem depends on the environment at your local game store. You may want to avoid an arms race situation where you buy stuff to counter him, then people have to buy things to counter you and so on. Some game stores thrive in an "arms race" situation, everyone gets a bit more competitive and you can have fun competition without the complexity of social regulations. Some communities (I have seen this personally) can all but die if a competitive player forces an arms race. You alienate your new, young, broke and the fluff fiends. All of them used to enjoy the game and contribute to the community in some way, but now they don't see the point.
If you are in an environment where there are frequent events, most of the players are adults with a paycheck, and most of the gamers want to be better players, an arms race is good. It will grow local interest, and players will be there more days.
If you are in a "shoot the gak" environment where people show up and eventually someone throws everyone in some huge free for all or a "you play him, I'll play him" situation, an arms race might really hurt.
I would say, depending on your local environment and if other players really aren't having fun:
1. Tech him and teach him a lesson (or tech him a lesson haha). Almost any newer competitive list could do this, as others have mentioned.
2. Alienate him socially. He will eventually find another clique more accepting if you guys are through with him.
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Never seen six 'Drakes but there's a few 4 'Drake and zombie lists at my LGS. The Iron Hands air force mops 'em up pretty good from what I've seen. I forget the actual composition but it's something like 3 Stormravens and 3 Stormtalons. If you're going double FOC use the extra set of heavy slots for a bunch of TFC and that should clean up the zombies as well.
Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug
Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..."
OT: You say you've had a discussion with him to try explain what others want from a game.... have you asked what he wants from a game? Is he wanting no holds barred, balls to the wall games? or is he after the thrill of the win (regardless of the level of the competition).
Either way, I reckon indulge him, play him occasionally and give him the victory he apparently craves. Just don't play him too often if fit is a difficult game to enjoy.
With regards to tailoring, OP, even though I don't recommend an arms race, what models do you have available?
Slayer le boucher wrote: Pg 80, says that a Flyer can end his movement over other models, that other models that can physically passe under can do it, and that ennemy models must be at 1" form its base.
While he still must respect the 1" from ennemy models, the Flyer can still end his movement over those models, you then use the Wobbly model rule, just like you stated, if you can't put the model, but you could legally put it there, you place a marker.
I interpreted these rules differently. I understood them to mean there needs to be space for the base (+1 inch) but it is okay for parts of the flyer that overhang the base to be positioned over enemy models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/07 20:04:17
Slayer le boucher wrote: Pg 80, says that a Flyer can end his movement over other models, that other models that can physically passe under can do it, and that ennemy models must be at 1" form its base.
While he still must respect the 1" from ennemy models, the Flyer can still end his movement over those models, you then use the Wobbly model rule, just like you stated, if you can't put the model, but you could legally put it there, you place a marker.
I interpreted these rules differently. I understood them to mean there needs to be space for the base (+1 inch) but it is okay for parts of the flyer that overhang the base to be positioned over enemy models.
Nareik has stated the most common interpretation. I have never heard of anyone playing as Slayer le boucher has described. It doesn't mean Slayer is wrong, just not how I have ever seen it played. IMHO This is the wrong forum for it, as this is a YMDC type discussion.
OP - I'd just play single force org battles. Try to show him that two 1500 point games can be played in the same amount of real time as this huge debacle he is forcing on you now. Not to mention it is going to be a hell of a lot more fun for all parties involved.
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1) Don't play him at 2000+ points and/or double FOC.
2) Hard counter his list with air force or Tau EWO/VT spam.
Option 2 makes me feel sort of queezy. However, the good news is, there really aren't the tools in the CSM codex to come back at most of the counters you'll bring for his turkey spam. It may (probably not, but may) teach him a valuable lesson about buying your way to wins.
Slayer le boucher wrote: Pg 80, says that a Flyer can end his movement over other models, that other models that can physically passe under can do it, and that ennemy models must be at 1" form its base.
While he still must respect the 1" from ennemy models, the Flyer can still end his movement over those models, you then use the Wobbly model rule, just like you stated, if you can't put the model, but you could legally put it there, you place a marker.
I interpreted these rules differently. I understood them to mean there needs to be space for the base (+1 inch) but it is okay for parts of the flyer that overhang the base to be positioned over enemy models.
Nareik has stated the most common interpretation. I have never heard of anyone playing as Slayer le boucher has described. It doesn't mean Slayer is wrong, just not how I have ever seen it played. IMHO This is the wrong forum for it, as this is a YMDC type discussion.
Well it might be the easiest way to interpret it mind you, but then why not simply state that "parts of the model (wings etc) can be over other models" rather then saying "the model can end his movement over other models", the sentence end his movement over other models is what make the difference with simply parts or the wings of the model can beover them.
After all it makes sens, why should a flyer who is 100 feet above the ground care about the crawling infantry when moving over them?, you could argue that its the same for Skimemrs and other anti-grav contraptions, but for them its clearly stated that they doesn't actually fly, they just Hoover a dozen or so feet above the ground.
But yeah its a YMDC case, it was just to make a remark that just overruning the board with models to hinders the movement of the drakes isn't the solution.
HiiC wrote: I think your best answer to this problem depends on the environment at your local game store. You may want to avoid an arms race situation where you buy stuff to counter him, then people have to buy things to counter you and so on. Some game stores thrive in an "arms race" situation, everyone gets a bit more competitive and you can have fun competition without the complexity of social regulations. Some communities (I have seen this personally) can all but die if a competitive player forces an arms race. You alienate your new, young, broke and the fluff fiends. All of them used to enjoy the game and contribute to the community in some way, but now they don't see the point.
There's no chance of an arms race breaking out. No one's trying to outspam that guy so much as figure out what tactics work against his army.
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Kommander Sparks DKoK 1000 (ish) - Now on the backburner
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In a world dominated by Tau and Eldar, it's a bummer to exile someone for playing Chaos Space Marines, even if it is CHEESE. You gotta figure if he's playing at 2000+, so are his opponents...they should have the resources to put up a fight...
To the OP, what army do you play? What are you throwing at him when you play the 6 Heldrakes?
I don't play that guy, the Chaos players at my FLGS are outnumbered as it is and we don't usually play each other.
I was there last night and got to watch that guy play a game. In addition to his army choice, it turns out he's a legitimate hard case. Throughout the game, he was laughing to himself over choices his opponent made and telling him things like 'you aren't going to win, might as well give up.' At one point, he decided the time had come for arguments about the rules. He spent 45 minutes trying to make a case for why it was legal to tank shock his own zombies with a Predator (which seemed like he was really just trying to move a zombie blob up a couple extra inches). I thought that guy was about to start yelling throughout the entire game.
His movement phases all took like 20 minutes and he positions every model on the board around terrain. The highlight of the game happened when his glasses fell off and knocked some models around. He was putting his Obliterators back upright and moved them like a foot away from where they were into cover. We called him on it, he said he wasn't cheating but had a stigmatism that messed up his depth perception.
The worst part about the game is that nothing really happened until turn 4. Before that, it's mostly just pathfinders and 3 Riptides shooting up Zombies. Then 5 Heldrakes come in, vector strike and flame everything, and the Tau player is down to an ethereal, a Riptide and one squad of pathfinders. That's when the Tau player gave up, after putting up with 3 hours of semi-abuse to reach an anticlimactic slaughter.
When they were cleaning up, the Tau player couldn't find some of his models. I think that guy is keeping trophies to boot.
I think I am going to buy some vengeance batteries and just leave them at the store for anyone to use.
The worst part about the game is that nothing really happened until turn 4. Before that, it's mostly just pathfinders and 3 Riptides shooting up Zombies. Then 5 Heldrakes come in, vector strike and flame everything, and the Tau player is down to an ethereal, a Riptide and one squad of pathfinders.
Guy sounds like a douche, but ignoring that..
How did 5 drakes kill so much, including 2 riptides? They should at worst take 5 flame hits (or maybe some autocannon hits), and get 2+ saves, which would be a massive waste of the drakes potential and leave everything else untouched, more than likely not killing a single riptide.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/09 12:30:39
How did 5 drakes kill so much, including 2 riptides? They should at worst take 5 flame hits (or maybe some autocannon hits), and get 2+ saves, which would be a massive waste of the drakes potential and leave everything else untouched, more than likely not killing a single riptide.
The Riptides had already been shot up a little bit by that turn. A blob of Zombies managed to put wounds on one of them, and the Predators and Obliterators managed to shoot up one of the others.
As a previous GW store manager, I have to ask what the store management thinks? An FLGS isn't just a sell and move them along operation. You have to nurture and develop a community.
You stated that the store sold him the 6 heldrakes. I would have considered it irresponsible and damaging to the community to sell one person 6 heldrakes and would have tried to guide the purchases in a different direction. At the end of the day, a person is going to buy what the want, but sometimes saying no to one person enhances revenue from everyone else.
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How did 5 drakes kill so much, including 2 riptides? They should at worst take 5 flame hits (or maybe some autocannon hits), and get 2+ saves, which would be a massive waste of the drakes potential and leave everything else untouched, more than likely not killing a single riptide.
The Riptides had already been shot up a little bit by that turn. A blob of Zombies managed to put wounds on one of them, and the Predators and Obliterators managed to shoot up one of the others.
How many points is this? 6 heldrakes, typhus and 6 large blobs of zombies, preds and oblits? These stories sound like the chaos player has much more stuff than opponent, is anyone checking his lists?
Getting assaulted by zombies seems a bit daft of a riptide..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/09 15:01:52
I don't play that guy, the Chaos players at my FLGS are outnumbered as it is and we don't usually play each other.
I was there last night and got to watch that guy play a game. In addition to his army choice, it turns out he's a legitimate hard case. Throughout the game, he was laughing to himself over choices his opponent made and telling him things like 'you aren't going to win, might as well give up.' At one point, he decided the time had come for arguments about the rules. He spent 45 minutes trying to make a case for why it was legal to tank shock his own zombies with a Predator (which seemed like he was really just trying to move a zombie blob up a couple extra inches). I thought that guy was about to start yelling throughout the entire game.
His movement phases all took like 20 minutes and he positions every model on the board around terrain. The highlight of the game happened when his glasses fell off and knocked some models around. He was putting his Obliterators back upright and moved them like a foot away from where they were into cover. We called him on it, he said he wasn't cheating but had a stigmatism that messed up his depth perception.
The worst part about the game is that nothing really happened until turn 4. Before that, it's mostly just pathfinders and 3 Riptides shooting up Zombies. Then 5 Heldrakes come in, vector strike and flame everything, and the Tau player is down to an ethereal, a Riptide and one squad of pathfinders. That's when the Tau player gave up, after putting up with 3 hours of semi-abuse to reach an anticlimactic slaughter.
When they were cleaning up, the Tau player couldn't find some of his models. I think that guy is keeping trophies to boot.
I think I am going to buy some vengeance batteries and just leave them at the store for anyone to use.
Do people not understand that you don't have to play him? Also, if he wants a game, say "Sure! Let's do 1500 points!"
Sounds like asperger syndrome, but I'm not a Doctor.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/09 16:42:55
How did 5 drakes kill so much, including 2 riptides? They should at worst take 5 flame hits (or maybe some autocannon hits), and get 2+ saves, which would be a massive waste of the drakes potential and leave everything else untouched, more than likely not killing a single riptide.
The Riptides had already been shot up a little bit by that turn. A blob of Zombies managed to put wounds on one of them, and the Predators and Obliterators managed to shoot up one of the others.
Sounds like something odd is going on here. Zombie's, IIRC, don't have a shooting weapon, they only have a CC weapon, so they shouldn't have been able to put wounds on a riptide due to shooting. If they were in CC, do Riptides have Hit and Run, I don't remember, but if they were in CC the drakes shouldn't have been able to hit them at all.
Also, the Riptides optimal configuration should include Interceptor, so the heldrakes may have been able to vector strike (not sure which goes first, vector strikes or interceptor) but the Riptides should have had a reasonable chance of downing one or two before the baleflamers came down. Also, the Riptide has a 2+ save meaning it should have relatively little to fear from a Vector Strike and Baleflamer attack themselves, unless they were incredibly unlucky.
So, yea, something just seems off about all this to me.
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1000 (ish) - Now on the backburner
