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LOL! One of my friends actually brought a 6 heldrake list to a tournament. He had to borrow 3 of my heldrakes to do so.

6 heldrakes is a terribly unbalanced Chaos list. It isn't really even that good IMO. It's got several weaknesses:

1. AV13/14

2. Massed flyers

3. 2+ save armies


Here's some examples of TAC (Take-All-Comer's) lists that I would take at 2K against a Helturkey list.


Necrons 2K

Overlord - 2+, MSS, Warscythe

3x Crypteks w/Voltaic Staves

5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe
5x Warriors - Night Scythe

6x Wraiths
6x Wraiths

Annihiliation Barge
Annihiliation Barge
Annihiliation Barge
Annihiliation Barge
Annihiliation Barge
Annihiliation Barge


Grey Knights 2K

Coteaz

2x Crusaders, 7x Deathcults
2x Crusaders, 7x Deathcults
3x Crusaders, 7x Deathcults
3x Henchmen - 3x Flamers
3x Henchmen - 3x Flamers
3x Henchmen - 3x Flamers

Stormraven
Stormraven
Stormraven

Land Raider Redeemer - Multi-melta
Land Raider Redeemer - Multi-melta
Land Raider Redeemer - Multi-melta


Tau 2K

Commander - Puretide, VRT, CCNode, MSS
Farseer - Jetbike

Riptide - HBC, TL-SMS, EWO, VT
Riptide - HBC, TL-SMS, EWO, VT
Riptide - Ion, TL-SMS, EWO

8x Fire Warriors - Devilfish w/TL-SMS
8x Fire Warriors - Devilfish w/TL-SMS
7x Fire Warriors - Devilfish w/TL-SMS
10x Kroots, 1x Hound
10x Kroots
3x Windrider Jetbikes
3x Windrider Jetbikes

Skyray - TL-SMS
Skyray - TL-SMS
3x Broadsides - HYMP, EWO


Daemons 2K

Fateweaver
Lord of Change - Lvl 3, 1x Exalted, 1x Lesser Gift

Be'lakor

10x Pink Horrors
10x Pink Horrors
10x Pink Horrors
10x Cultists
10x Cultists

Heldrake

Soulgrinder - Slaanesh, Baleful Torrent
Soulgrinder - Slaanesh, Baleful Torrent
Soulgrinder - Slaanesh, Baleful Torrent


The trick here is to Terrify the zombies and then sweep them in combat.


More lists to come....

I'd be tempted to just not play him, and encourage everyone else to do the same. If no-one is enjoying it, this should get the point across to him.

Failing that, see if between you you can put up one of the lists that jy2 posted above which would make his life very difficult.

Baneblades, Reaver Titans... You don't even have to bother with the helldrakes too much, just wipre those zombies out.

The deathwing list with triple LRC's and standard of devastation will effectively neuter his entire army. The Land Raiders are impervious to pretty much everything in his entire army.

Hell any army with 3x Land Raiders or more will just form an AV14 wall and laugh. Of course, unfortunately the guy is probably a guy that doesn't get it, and he will just show up with 5 heldrakes, typhus and a demon prince next time, or something like that, and keep trying till he finds the right mix while still being annoying to play against.

The best solution is to just not play the guy, or just play 1500 to 1850 pt games. Then he just can't run dual FoC's and it becomes a moot point. Also, at that point you're not refusing to play the guy, so he can't feel all butthurt about being excluded, he'll just whine that he can't use all his toys. He may just disappear on his own then.

I agree pretty much everything so far.
Dont forget squads of hydras. 6 full squads of them could put a hurting on them as well and at only 75 points each, you'll have plenty of points left.
Refusing to play the guy and getting everyone on board is the best idea. When he asks why, yes, tell him exactly why and dont debate it. otherwise he will whine and justify till the cows come home. say why and nd the conversation. Be sure tolet him know that it is because of his rmy and not him and that if he brings something reasonable, you would be happy to play him then.
You guys could also say something along the lines of sure. i'd be glad to play a 2k game with a single force slot. this will still let you field your normal army and remove his 2nd force slot and get rid of half his turkeys (although, then he could use guard allies and bring in 3 vendettas).
smaller games. instead of 2k, try 1500.

Keep in mind that my lists tend to be on the extreme side, but they are also Take-All-Comer's (TAC) lists as well. I also enjoy the mental exercise of coming up with these types of balanced lists, though I don't necessarily always play them.

Also, I wouldn't run any of these lists in a casual setting, just like your Chaos friend shouldn't be running 6 heldrakes in casual play as well. He'll learn soon enough when people start refusing to play against his list.


Imperial Guards 2K

Company Command Squad - 4x Meltas, Chimera 145
Inquisitor - Level 1 Psyker, 3x Servo-skulls

Platoon Command Squad - 4x Flamers, Chimera
Lots of Infantry, 1x Commissar
4x Separate Sabre Platforms w/TL-Lascannons
1x Special Weapon Squads - 3x Flamers

Platoon Command Squad - 4x Flamers, Chimera
Lots of Infantry
3x Separate Sabre Platforms w/TL-Lascannons
2x Special Weapon Squads - 3x Flamers ea

Vendetta - Heavy Bolters
Vendetta - Heavy Bolters
Vendetta - Heavy Bolters

Manticore
Manticore


Space Marines 2K

Librarian

Dreadnought - Multi-melta, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod

10x Tact Squad - Flakk Missile Launcher, Flamer, Rhino
10x Tact Squad - Flakk Missile Launcher, Flamer, Rhino
10x Tact Squad - Melta, Combi-Melta, Melta-bombs, Drop Pod
10x Tact Squad - Flamer, Combi-flamer, Melta-bombs, Drop Pod
10x Tact Squad - Plasma Cannon, Melta, Rhino
5x Scouts

Stormtalon
Stormtalon
Stormtalon

Stormraven
Thunderfire Cannon
Thunderfire Cannon


And if you play Forgeworld as well....


Space Wolves 2K

Rune Priest
Space Marine Librarian

5x Grey Hunters - Flamer
5x Grey Hunters - Flamer
5x Grey Hunters - Melta
5x Grey Hunters - Melta
5x Scouts

Land Raider Prometheus - Multi-melta (Elite selection)

Land Raider Achilles - Dozers
Land Raider Achilles - Dozers
Land Raider Achilles - Dozers
Stormraven

Arent the sabre playforms also forgeworld?
I remember checking them out. was a bit pricey at over $40 a model (altough this was a few years ago).

 EVIL INC wrote:
Arent the sabre playforms also forgeworld?
I remember checking them out. was a bit pricey at over $40 a model (altough this was a few years ago).

Yeah they are. They are such a good unit, both against air and ground targets. And the fact that they are scoring is a bonus.

Hmm tau players are planning on buying tyranids once the new codex comes out? Just tell them no, tau should stick to tau.

Havnt seen the actual rules for them, but think they look amazingly cool and from what I hear of the rules, they are nice.
just cant justify that price tag. if i get my hands on the rules, may hafta convert me some.

was just asking to make sure cause you made a point to say the last list was FW. Seemed like the guard list wasnt and i had gotten excited there for a minute thinking of taking some to a tourney. lol

Fast Troops that can get into assault with the Zombies before the heldrakes hit the table is what you're looking for. Those Zombie combats will last awhile, giving the heldrakes no targets. If the troops in question have a 2+ armor save, all the better.

For example, full Dante Wing (Dante with Sanguinary Guard as troops) with 3 vindicators to pummel whatever unit Typhus is in could defeat the 6 Heldrake list without ever targeting the heldrakes. It's a bad example, as no one in their right mind is running full Dante Wing these days, but it just goes to show how counterable a list can be if you know what you're up against.

Obviously, it's not economic to buy and build a list just to beat one guy at your FLGS, but if he actually purchased all of those models from said store, it's a bummer that no one wants to play him just because he's crushing the local Meta.

Thank you everyone for all the comments.

In regards to refusing to play this guy, yeah, some people are kind of doing that already with Chaos players. But our local club is pretty friendly, I don't think anybody wants to be actively chasing anyone away. That guy might not possess many redeeming social values, but other people there have their own personality defects too. It would be hard to figure out where to draw the line, so there's some value in not having one.

That said, he has been tearing up everyone he faces in long, boring games. For the record, he has other models in his army, the Zombies and the Drakes are just the obnoxious part of his list. I haven't paid particularly close attention to his games, but I have seen plague marines, predators, obliterators and terminators there, too.

I really think we could do best by having the tactics to simply beat this list. There's the issue of the Heldrakes and there's the issue of the Zombies. Some questions:

- With the 4 vengeance battery with Icarus pattern, quad-linked lascannons: any army can take that, right? How do the rules actually work against flyers? Doesn't it have some rule about only being able to shoot the closest model?

- With 6 Riptides with HBC, TLFB, VT, and EWO - how many points is that? There are a lot of Tau players there, maybe some of them could loan each other models.

- With Annihilation Barges and Night Scythes - do these do anti-air?

- How would a good Eldar list deal with them?

- How about IG? He has really upset some Guard players by outnumbering them on the field and taking out large blobs with the Heldrakes.

 techsoldaten wrote:

That said, he has been tearing up everyone he faces in long, boring games. For the record, he has other models in his army, the Zombies and the Drakes are just the obnoxious part of his list. I haven't paid particularly close attention to his games, but I have seen plague marines, predators, obliterators and terminators there, too.

I really think we could do best by having the tactics to simply beat this list. There's the issue of the Heldrakes and there's the issue of the Zombies. Some questions:

If he has 6 heldrakes, 6 blobs of 20+ zombies and Typhus, and MORE stuff, than you are clearly playing 2000+ points, and the game really becomes nuts at that level. Sure your group may be friendly, but to defeat him you're going to have to play some "unfun" combo's and units yourself, and if that's the direction you want everyone going for your "friendly" game club, it seems like a sure-fire path to destruction.

Seriously, play games at 1850 or less and the problem magically goes away without having to hurt anyone's feelings.

You can always also just say, no double force orgs. if you play a smaller point level, he can still use 3 and have almost the same effect. Play single force org at 2k and those 3 wont have near the effect as 6 does at that points level.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Thank you everyone for all the comments.

In regards to refusing to play this guy, yeah, some people are kind of doing that already with Chaos players. But our local club is pretty friendly, I don't think anybody wants to be actively chasing anyone away. That guy might not possess many redeeming social values, but other people there have their own personality defects too. It would be hard to figure out where to draw the line, so there's some value in not having one.

That said, he has been tearing up everyone he faces in long, boring games. For the record, he has other models in his army, the Zombies and the Drakes are just the obnoxious part of his list. I haven't paid particularly close attention to his games, but I have seen plague marines, predators, obliterators and terminators there, too.

I really think we could do best by having the tactics to simply beat this list. There's the issue of the Heldrakes and there's the issue of the Zombies. Some questions:

- With the 4 vengeance battery with Icarus pattern, quad-linked lascannons: any army can take that, right? How do the rules actually work against flyers? Doesn't it have some rule about only being able to shoot the closest model?

- With 6 Riptides with HBC, TLFB, VT, and EWO - how many points is that? There are a lot of Tau players there, maybe some of them could loan each other models.

- With Annihilation Barges and Night Scythes - do these do anti-air?

- How would a good Eldar list deal with them?

- How about IG? He has really upset some Guard players by outnumbering them on the field and taking out large blobs with the Heldrakes.

The list you presented should not have room at 2000 pts for much else. If he is bringing stuff like you indicate then you may want to pay close attention to his list.

The vengeance battery with quad las that I recommended can be taken in any army (except perhaps tyranids if rumours are correct) and fires on the nearest target but with priority targeting of flyers and then vehicles (so until the hellturkeys die they will be shooting those).

Annihilation barges and night scythes are excellent AA.

The IG guys need to take more vendettas, sabre platforms, and/or hydras and space their troops out more. To deal with the zombies they can effectively rely of FRFSRF and their artillery.

I vote on the Vengeance Batteries.

Void grenades, void whales, the void dragon yknow anything with 'void' in its name would be good

Deep striking salamanders. Kill zombies like mad. Repeat failed saves.

 whitedragon wrote:

If he has 6 heldrakes, 6 blobs of 20+ zombies and Typhus, and MORE stuff, than you are clearly playing 2000+ points, and the game really becomes nuts at that level. Sure your group may be friendly, but to defeat him you're going to have to play some "unfun" combo's and units yourself, and if that's the direction you want everyone going for your "friendly" game club, it seems like a sure-fire path to destruction.

Seriously, play games at 1850 or less and the problem magically goes away without having to hurt anyone's feelings.

Sorry, I tried to be clear about that in the original post. Most of the games played at my FLGS are between 2,000 and 3,500 points. Some people play for less, but the majority of games are at this level.

IG allies with 6 Hydras( 3 per HS slot), that should do it.

Mech IG with Vendatta should sort him rather quickly. Start dropping pie plates and massed fire on the Cultists and wait for his heldrakes to come in. They shouldn't be able to do too much about your tanks for a turn or 2 with his drakes.

Don't leave any room for his heldrakes to place their bases and make him either hover or crash. When he hovers, anything that can hurt it will have free reign at full BS.

I'm really surprised no one has said anything about the Tau Firebase formation. Kit the one broadside squad with HRR and VT, and the other with HYMP and VT, and HBC riptide with VT/EWO. All 2+ armor, all tank hunting, all skyfire. And it comes in one box that is actually a discount.

The simplest solution is often best, in my opinion.

If flyers cannot move legally they crash and die. Render legal movement impossible. He has 120+ infantry and six flyers; That takes up a significant amount of board space and any opponent who brings a foot list should find it fairly simple to crowd the field to the point where he cannot legally place more than one or two of his drakes. Green tide would be particularly effective due to obscenely high model count and high number of attacks/shots to clear zombies. PK's hiding in the units can whittle down whatever else he has backing his guys up, and once you spread across the table each drake he manages to place can only kill 6-8 Boyz a turn. Green tide laughs at those kind of casualties, and cares even less once they get stuck into close combat. This kind of full-field coverage also negates Vector Strike by preventing him from crossing a unit and landing safely.

Turns are won in the shooting and assault phases, but games are won in the movement phase.

Eldar, A huge nonconventional counter to flyers is warp spiders. They are the fastest units in the game. and can easily stay behind a flyer and out of retaliation range. Each has 2 str7 BS 4 shots.

Or FW Firestorm transports.
Then load up on mass infantry killing elves to take out the zombie hoard

With double force org charts you can squish in 200+ Boyz, with PKs in each mob.

See if he can laugh that off.

Heh.

No but really. The best solutions have already been stated in posts above.

2500 Points gets you 5x 20 boys in battlewagons (to flood his half of the center-board on turn one), 4x 30 boys (to flood YOUR half of the center) and a combination of 2x 30 grots/3 runtherds and 4x 15 man big gunz cannon squads (to fill your own deployment zone) with 150 points left for your choice of two HQ's.

Just try to maneuver 6 flyers around 346 infantry models and six tanks.

I'd add in a Burna wagon or two for clearing out something like 70+ zombies a turn (each)

Alternatively just take a superheavy or something and go "herp derp its legal" when he cries about it.

Edit: and that fort that REAMS flyers

He can't win if you kill all his zombie troops. Take 3 Blood Angel Furiosos with Blood Talons. The Heldrakes will have trouble killing those and they should tear through the Zombie squads in short order.

 Tuagh wrote:
The simplest solution is often best, in my opinion.

If flyers cannot move legally they crash and die. Render legal movement impossible. He has 120+ infantry and six flyers; That takes up a significant amount of board space and any opponent who brings a foot list should find it fairly simple to crowd the field to the point where he cannot legally place more than one or two of his drakes. Green tide would be particularly effective due to obscenely high model count and high number of attacks/shots to clear zombies. PK's hiding in the units can whittle down whatever else he has backing his guys up, and once you spread across the table each drake he manages to place can only kill 6-8 Boyz a turn. Green tide laughs at those kind of casualties, and cares even less once they get stuck into close combat. This kind of full-field coverage also negates Vector Strike by preventing him from crossing a unit and landing safely.

Turns are won in the shooting and assault phases, but games are won in the movement phase.

Except that Flyers can end their movement above models, even if they have to respect the 1" away from the base, you do has with the Wobbly models rule, you place a token where the Thing is reality, even if the base and model are before that.

Pg80 flyers and movement.

DarthDiggler wrote:
He can't win if you kill all his zombie troops. Take 3 Blood Angel Furiosos with Blood Talons. The Heldrakes will have trouble killing those and they should tear through the Zombie squads in short order.

..;Nope... Drakes have absolutly no difficulties to VStriking to death AV12 walkers, its even their fav thing to VStrike.

That's great, but Furiosos are Av 13 not 12.