Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This is an interesting thread for a number of reasons! If you get the chance to watch him play again, techsoldaten, I'd love to hear another battle report (abbreviated or just the high points) including any psychological perspectives you might be able to add... I may have missed it, where do you guys play?

It does sound like he's a good player, but has a lot of other qualities that would make him even harder to play against. I'd be so annoyed with him by turn 2, that I'd make some critical error and lose horribly on turn 3. lol.

it doesn't sound much like aspergers, just that he doesn't have many social skills and is just rude.

I'm hoping you'll see him lose soon (or hear about it) and you can describe what happened (i.e., both details on the list that beat him... and how he handled the loss!).

Maybe the victor could sneakily take one of his helldrakes and stick it under his coat as a trophy?

I'm telling you. Have someone bring a marine air cav list.

 gpfunk wrote:

 EVIL INC wrote:
Which has nothing to do with the out of game behavior of the players which this thread is about.

Did you read the original post? .

did you read any posts AFTER the original post?The OP explained that the issue is not actually with the list itself and explained that the issue is actually with the behavior.
If you hate the game so much, dont play it, hijacking threads to get on a soapbox and preach is not the way to address the issue that the thread is actually about.
The OP has been gien a dozen or more different ways to address the list problem and that issue has been addressed and solved. That is why we have been addressing the real issues that caused him to make the thread to begin with which is the behavior.

5 heldrake list does still have to have 2 full force org charts. That is 2 HQ's and 4 Troops. If he doesn't have that on the table. Politely remind him.

Dunno if it's been said, but a good tactic with Deathwing versus heavy flyer lists is to deepstrike everything close to his table edge.

This only works if he's flying on of course. But when he does, he has to fly past your army, then spend a few turns turning around. All the while you can concentrate on his troops.

Your tau player should be jumping the riptide back and forth in front of his troop choices after every shooting phase. It creates a cover save for those troops. And yes, I know what I said does not make sense, due to flamers denying cover save, but listen to Night Lords player with a single drake, who plays against a HUGE Tau meta in Memphis, aka pay to win central. All the possible wounds the heldrake creates from flame are absorbed into the 2+ riptides leaving the troops behind completely safe. The drake though formidable is not with out its flaws. Riptides and broadsides with EWO and smart missiles ruin their day. Priority of shots matters. Deployment style matters. The drake can only come in from owning players table edge. The max it may fly is 36". Give it no targets to VS. Interceptor happens after movement of the model. Pathfinders should if able focus fire on the space chicken to take jink away with two marker lights. Tau should have an eldar contingent (small) to get a Farseer who can grant reroll to hit with markers to a minimum of two pathfinders. With the eldar take a single squad of dire avengers in a wave to fire volleys of shots into zombies. The Vaul weapon platforms are stupid useful. 90 points for 3 barrage shots, that can ignore cover. These are all valid tactics. Oh and at DFO, you can ally two units. Data slates give you nonrestrictive allies.

Edit: to actually sidebar to a poster, blacksails, the game is not the problem. The player in question has take the time to meticulously understand what the rules allow him to do as you go have mentioned, which I agree. But blaming the rules for not causing fun is hilarious (not funny haha, but funny that is totally lame) to me. We all agree that this is no longer a previous edition, but always comparing it to them does it no justice. I personally only had one game in 3.5, 4th, & 5th ed (each) I enjoyed playing. 6th has given me dramatically more, some I have won, some I have lost by the skin of my teeth. I am in no way saying it is better or worse. But we are a year and a half into this edition, I'm think we can give up on it being 2ed again. Rant done, sorry for any vitriol that came out in that. Once again, sorry for calling a particular poster out.

To OP, flyers do well against other fliers, the eldar crimson hunter has the ability to almost constantly see the aft-hole of the heldrake. Have you considered doing the one rule in the book that tends to be over looked, make house rules. Sometimes trying new, hopefully fair player created rules can create fun for all parties. Sit down as a group, DO NOT ATTACK THAT PLAYER VERBALLY. And see if your players are cool with that idea.

Spaz431 wrote:


Edit: to actually sidebar to a poster, blacksails, the game is not the problem. The player in question has take the time to meticulously understand what the rules allow him to do as you go have mentioned, which I agree. But blaming the rules for not causing fun is hilarious (not funny haha, but funny that is totally lame) to me. We all agree that this is no longer a previous edition, but always comparing it to them does it no justice. I personally only had one game in 3.5, 4th, & 5th ed (each) I enjoyed playing. 6th has given me dramatically more, some I have won, some I have lost by the skin of my teeth. I am in no way saying it is better or worse. But we are a year and a half into this edition, I'm think we can give up on it being 2ed again. Rant done, sorry for any vitriol that came out in that. Once again, sorry for calling a particular poster out.

Okay, well I never once compared 6th to any other edition, so I don't know where the points about the previous editions come into this.

You seem to have slightly contradicted yourself. You're saying the player is the problem, yet the player is doing what is permitted in the rules (as you've admitted) and I'm assuming also having fun. If his opponent isn't enjoying the game because of totally allowable moves and rules interactions, then it is absolutely the games fault, not the player.

Once more, if you continue to insist the player is at fault, all you're doing is claiming that someone's way of having fun is wrong, and that your way of playing is superior. You can't claim that someone is 'playing the game incorrectly' if everything they've done is permitted in the rule set.

Here's the thing though, the rule set is actually what creates discussions like these in the first place. If the rules were clearer and the codices balanced, we wouldn't be here complaining about this list, or how he used basic cover for his units, or how he moved his units in a tedious fashion. A properly done rule set would eliminate this artificial divide between 'fun, casual and rainbows at all costs' players and 'I'm going to eat your first born child competitive' players. Just take a look at any of the other games on the market or on their forums. These discussions rarely pop up, as 'competitive' and 'casual' don't exist as two different camps of players. There are just players.

So yes, it is absolutely the rules fault. We wouldn't be having this discussion if it wasn't.

 Blacksails wrote:
So yes, it is absolutely the rules fault. We wouldn't be having this discussion if it wasn't.

The rules allow the list, so sure, the rules are the root of the problem. but really, that's not relevant to the discussion.

He wants tactics about how to deal with the army, and while "don't play that army" and "don't play double force org" are valid, improving your play style to cope with harder lists (without entering an "arms race") is what it seems the thread is for.

useful, and generic, tips (some of which have already been presented) include:

- 2+ armour saves, high toughness and/or AV13/14 (stormravens are only AV12 but a MUCH better flyer than the helldrake and can do wonders against ground targets as well, IG flyers are also good against armour/helldrakes; thunderfire cannons are a great way to reach out and touch units)

- prioritising things that threaten those units (since the list has more than just helldrakes and zombies)

- careful objective placement; where the objectives are determines where the game is going to be played. given his love of hoards and spacing out, where you place the objectives allows you to ignore 1/2 the table (making it hard for him to manoeuvre; better for elite, resilient armies) or play the whole thing (make him fight a battle on both fronts (better for large IG armies that have enough troops and fire power to keep him engaged up and own the table preventing him from focusing on a particular unit with his whole army)

- use plenty of LOS blocking terrain. The rule book recommends LOTS of terrain (10~12 pieces is average) which will make manoeuvring a hoard harder, make finding fire lanes harder for him, and prevent casualties on your part since they can only kill what they can see (so those obliterators can only kill that one crisis suit that couldn't quite get out of LOS even though they're in range of all of them)

IG or marine air cav. That's a valid build as well against this.

yes, the player is indeed at fault. I have looked through the rulebook and tried to find the parts where it specifically states that you must take 20 minute movement phases or trash talk degrading your opponent and steal their miniatures. Feel free to cite those rules and the actual page numbers where the rest of us can find them in the book. I'm willing to bet though that that is a player issue instead of a rule issue though. This is because if it WAS in the rules that you act like that, this particular player would not stand out from the others who also followed the rules.

The list issue has already been solved. Either dont play him, play smaller games, play single force or at the points level or just outcheese him. Problem solved on the list issue. The REAL problem that we are discussing his out of game behaviors while playing the game.

Spaz431 wrote:
Your tau player should be jumping the riptide back and forth in front of his troop choices after every shooting phase. It creates a cover save for those troops. And yes, I know what I said does not make sense, due to flamers denying cover save, but listen to Night Lords player with a single drake, who plays against a HUGE Tau meta in Memphis, aka pay to win central. All the possible wounds the heldrake creates from flame are absorbed into the 2+ riptides leaving the troops behind completely safe.

Explain this tactic a little better please.

I was curious about it myself. I thought that you placed the small end of the template closest to the model firing itand then only the models actually covered by it took the hits/wounds. Am i correct to think that if the template was simply laid across the models behind the riptide, that the riptide would not even be touched?

@pancakeonions - For the record, I have never played that guy. There may come a day, but it's unlikely since we both have Chaos armies.

@Zarkin - yeah, but it's the zombies they would have to worry about. Even terminators have to watch out for blobs, that could turn into a lot of saves. Not to mention Typhus and his psychic powers...

@Spaz431 - those are good and constructive insights, thanks. We have some house rules at our FLGS, but most of them revolve around things that need to be FAQed. Those sound like great Tau tactics, and I will be sure to mention them sometime. From what I have seen, Tau players spend a lot of time trying to shoot up the zombie horde, and run into firepower issues before the drakes arrive. I think the basic issue is more list composition and not bringing enough anti-air.

I just got back from my FLGS. That guy had been hanging out there earlier today, but did not play a game. He was talking to some other CSM players, which was basically to tell them to buy more Heldrakes and zombies. He also took the time to explain some tactics that revolved around cover and focus fire, which everybody seemed to think were pretty good. A couple of my friends were still talking about it when I got there.

The other thing he did was read through Codex Tyranids, cover to cover. He bought a copy and ordered a bunch of models. He also told some people the Codex seemed very strong.

Perhaps the 6 Heldrake issue gets solved by him switching to another army? Not sure what to expect and wondering what he's going to come back with.

Spaz431 wrote:
Your tau player should be jumping the riptide back and forth in front of his troop choices after every shooting phase. It creates a cover save for those troops. And yes, I know what I said does not make sense, due to flamers denying cover save, but listen to Night Lords player with a single drake, who plays against a HUGE Tau meta in Memphis, aka pay to win central. All the possible wounds the heldrake creates from flame are absorbed into the 2+ riptides leaving the troops behind completely safe.

You are saying that if you put a riptide in front of a unit of troops, and the drake shoots the troops behind it, the riptide somehow soaks the wounds?

Here are the ways that would be ineffective:

1) the heldrake can come in at an angle to not worry about it
2) the heldrake can fly over your whole army and toast you from behind.

Now let's see why this doesn't work in the rules:
1) wounds are resolved per-unit. If it hits the riptide and the troops behind it, say covering 6 fire warriors and the riptide, the riptide would take 1 wound and the warriors would take 6. This means that the riptide makes 1 save, and the warriors DIE. They have their own wound pool. The riptide doesn't get to make 7 2+ saves and spare the unit.

2) If you are talking about the IC riptide from farsight enclave, you COULD do this, but the majority toughness in the unit would be 3 or 4 depending on the kind of squad he joined, meaning he would be taking way more wounds than normal and die very quickly.

So no, this is not a good tactic at all and is completely against the rules.

For me if that guy is nice and he has a super ultra cheesy list and really wants to play it, I'm all for it; I can play, lose, learn gel from mistakes and try to come up with a better list. But if the guy is a complete dick I don't care what list he brings. I'll bring a trololol list. If it's the 3500 point game:

1 Phantom Titan (I think ForgeWorld FAQ to allow its use)
1 Farseer on Jetbike with Mantle of the Laughing God
2 Minimum squads of guardian jet bikes
3 Crimson Hunter Exarch

List comes to be around 3400. For anyone else besides jerks, I save the titan for apocalypse.

Point being I don't mind facing super ultra lists for the most part. I find the personality of the player to be a more important factor.

It will be interesting to see what he does with these nids on the table once he gets his 3 colours on them.

I'm excited as it means the OP will have a chance to fight the subject as they are no longer using mirror armies .

As to the trash talk, maybe he doesn't mean it to be taken so badly? One man's insulting tirade is another's banter.

Spaz431 wrote:
Your tau player should be jumping the riptide back and forth in front of his troop choices after every shooting phase. It creates a cover save for those troops. And yes, I know what I said does not make sense, due to flamers denying cover save, but listen to Night Lords player with a single drake, who plays against a HUGE Tau meta in Memphis, aka pay to win central. All the possible wounds the heldrake creates from flame are absorbed into the 2+ riptides leaving the troops behind completely safe

I think it's not working like this. Every squad makes saves separately. if there's a wound to a riptide and 5 wounds to fire warriors behind him, riptide takes 1 save and 5 firewarriors die. So actually u're just forcing urself to make an extra save on a riptide...

 koooaei wrote:
I think it's not working like this. Every squad makes saves separately. if there's a wound to a riptide and 5 wounds to fire warriors behind him, riptide takes 1 save and 5 firewarriors die. So actually u're just forcing urself to make an extra save on a riptide...

The only way for a fire warrior to survive a bale flamer is to have 2 firewarrior buddies on the floor of the ruins above him.

 Zarkin wrote:
Dunno if it's been said, but a good tactic with Deathwing versus heavy flyer lists is to deepstrike everything close to his table edge.

This only works if he's flying on of course. But when he does, he has to fly past your army, then spend a few turns turning around. All the while you can concentrate on his troops.

That also makes it easier to get the [insert name] attack they get when they fly over you. Dangerous.

Alright, first off, thank you to everyone again for your comments in this thread.

That guy was around again last night. He played against SMs with his 6 Heldrake list. The SM player had a firestorm redoubt with quad lasers, and tailored his list to beat the drakes. He was able to take out 2 of the Heldrakes but that was it. That guy won.

Can someone who understands the rules for the firestorm / vengeance battery confirm some things for me? I honestly don't and think there is some confusion going on here. Here is what I think I know about the fortification.

1) The cannons shoot at BS2. They are automated and cannot be manned. They always shoot at BS2.

2) They have interceptor and can shoot at things when they arrive in the opponent's turn.

3) They have access points. A unit can go into one for cover if they need to.

4) The cannons MUST target the closest MC or flyer each turn. Afterwards, it moves onto ground targets.

5) The cannons are twin linked. You reroll any misses.

6) The fortification is AV12. It can be blown up with meltas.

why are you guys so set on playing above 1999 point battles?

 techsoldaten wrote:
Alright, first off, thank you to everyone again for your comments in this thread.

That guy was around again last night. He played against SMs with his 6 Heldrake list. The SM player had a firestorm redoubt with quad lasers, and tailored his list to beat the drakes. He was able to take out 2 of the Heldrakes but that was it. That guy won.

Can someone who understands the rules for the firestorm / vengeance battery confirm some things for me? I honestly don't and think there is some confusion going on here. Here is what I think I know about the fortification.

1) The cannons shoot at BS2. They are automated and cannot be manned. They always shoot at BS2.

2) They have interceptor and can shoot at things when they arrive in the opponent's turn.

3) They have access points. A unit can go into one for cover if they need to.

4) The cannons MUST target the closest MC or flyer each turn. Afterwards, it moves onto ground targets.

5) The cannons are twin linked. You reroll any misses.

6) The fortification is AV12. It can be blown up with meltas.

Heldrakes don't die easily. The 5+ invul can really be bad news. You need more AA that is mobile and not static. Get some marine or IG air cav to help out.

 Gangrel767 wrote:
why are you guys so set on playing above 1999 point battles?

We all have a lot of models and like to use them. It's just how it is. There are some people who play smaller games, but it's been like 2 years since I have.

fair enough. Personally I enjoy smaller games. We usually play 1500-1850 point battles in my group. The game is much more manageable at that level. You are essentially playing Apocalypse.... bring some titans. lol

Well, my games are pleasant affairs full of charm, wit, good humor and excellently painted models. You know, the kind that get girls.

That guy's games are shrieking, horrid affairs full of arguments, gigantic turns, taunting, open mockery, and picking on people 5 - 10 years younger than him. Models are sometimes missing at the end. People genuinely have bad feelings. I have seen one guy who looked like he was going to cry. They take five-ever because four is not enough.

When people are getting on well, it's not that big a deal having a ton of models on the table, the games go by fast. When there are a lot of models on the table and the other guy wants to look up whether or not your infantry can move on open terrain in the movement phase despite the fact they don't have slow and purposeful or whatever other misinterpretation he wants to waste your time with, it's another matter.

I actually like to play larger games. Seriously, try them with a single force org. that will get rid of things like the 6 drake spam list and will add in an extra element of strategy. Because with multiple orgs, you can just everything in. With a single force org, you will actually have to do some thinking about what you have, what you want to use, what you need to use and so forth.

Use the Stronghold Assault rules and bring plenty of interceptor and skyfire using the fortification option where you get a number of bastions and aegis lines.

Along that, you could also bring in the much maligned (and very useful) void shield. Use a pretty big building (like 12" x 12") in order to cover around 36" x 36" of table space. Put that as close to the middle as you can and all of your objectives and troops within it. His heldrakes won't penetrate it and will be useless as he'll have to go inside to get to you.

I believe the firestorm redoubt is armor 14, no? It's a building, all buildings are 14 if you buy them for your army.

This thread reminds me, why i don't play 2000pts. games... not able to bring 6 drakes in a 1850pts. match

@clively - Sounds like good advice. I have been thinking fortifications is the best defence against the Rain of Fire list (which is what we have started calling the 6 heldrakes). I am just not up to speed on the Stronghold Assault rules though, and want to understand a little more before I go spouting off on it.

Some questions:

1) Void shield generator - how does someone take down a void shield? Is it just by shooting at the tower? Can you shoot through a void shield at a unit? What kind of saves does it offer people within the void shield? How does it work against something that is already in the shield - i.e. if a Heldrake is within the range of the shield generator, what kind of protection does that offer the Heldrake and it's target?

2) Fortification option - does this mean people can just start spending points on fortifications?