Inquisitorial Stormtrooper compared to Space Marine

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**Ashiraya**

brother marcus wrote:
Fezman wrote:
Personally I'm inclined to go with the Marines, but the Stormtroopers could win if they played to their strengths. In a straight-up firefight I think the Troopers are doomed. But that wouldn't be a situation the Troopers (and bear in mind the ones working for an Inquisitor are the best of the best) would allow to happen except as a last resort. Stormtrooper fluff makes it clear that covert ops are their thing.

Also, even if they can pull off an ambush the Troopers have to work fast and make their shots count. Space Marines have so many advantages that they're going to be able to hit back very quickly.They're conditioned to be able to overcome panic and assess the battlefield instantly (as represented by ATSKNF). One misplaced shot, even from a hotshot weapon, can be turned or soaked up by their armour. Their superior reflexes and autosenses will let them spot their attackers in their hiding places. And let's not forget that they can get chunks blown out of their bodies or lose limbs and keep on fighting.

So overall the Marines would have a big advantage, but the Strotroopers could win if they could hit hard with overwhelming force and no warning and were prepared to withdraw if things didn't go exactly to plan.

This is has been my point as soon as those storm troopers fire a marine will automatically know where he is and a Bolter shell ( which easily punch through carapace armour ) will quickly follow either killing said storm trooper or taking him out of the fight

Lets not forget power armour has many sensors to help a marine detect threats and many aim assists to ensure that his shots count

Also hotshot lasguns are a thing that has been fabricated for guard to kill marines easier on the board where as a Bolter is a mile away from its real potencial oh yea and did anyone take into account they also get hot ?? That would have a drastic effect in a real fire fight in fluff world

While Bolters would, perhaps, not smash through carapace armour as if it wasn't there (At least not at long range) the concussion, explosion, and the fact that the Bolter is an automatic weapon would still mean that the Stormtrooper would not be looking too healthy afterwards.

**brother marcus**

Exactly I also think a hot shot lasgun if used in fluff could only be fired in short bursts because of the shear heat much like plasma

This mean that if ALL the marines arnt wiped out the storm troopers wouldn't last long after they react

**Swastakowey**

brother marcus wrote:
Exactly I also think a hot shot lasgun if used in fluff could only be fired in short bursts because of the shear heat much like plasma

This mean that if ALL the marines arnt wiped out the storm troopers wouldn't last long after they react

All las guns have variable power settings. They can be weak to stun or high powered to kill.any lasgun can be turned into a powerful weapon by simply firing at full power. They also have 2 fire modes being able to switch between semi and automatic. This makes guardsmen effective against most targets in most situations. Las gun battery packs themselves can become weapons. I have also read that there are lasguns packs with different capabilities as well.

**Bobthehero**

Hellguns are different, they usually have a whole powerpack to feed the weapon, a system to keep the weapon cool so that it can fire for extended period of time and enough power to punch through PA.

They also have uber-training (most start training at a younger age than SM recruits, the rest are veterans) and psycho-conditionning (Schola Progenium)

**Melissia**

Any lasgun can be hooked up to a backpack power pack. The expense just means it's usually only veterans, elite grenadiers, or stormtroopers who use them.

**malfred**

My impression since I first read Gaunt (and not much else
other than Eisenhorn, admittedly) is that Storm Troopers
are impressive. For humans. There's a scene where Eisenhorn
is winded either by trying to keep up with or watch a Cadian
Kasrkin train.

However, Space and Chaos Marines are godlike, and the presence
of a single one seems to portend doom for any group
of
unaugmented humans.

**Psienesis**

...except Gaunt and some naked tribals kill an entire squad of them with bows and arrows.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Psienesis wrote:
...except Gaunt and some naked tribals kill an entire squad of them with bows and arrows.

Wait, what? How did a bunch of arrows get past powered armor? That would be like, S1 in the table top 0_o

**malfred**

Missed that bit heh

**Psienesis**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Psienesis wrote:
...except Gaunt and some naked tribals kill an entire squad of them with bows and arrows.

Wait, what? How did a bunch of arrows get past powered armor? That would be like, S1 in the table top 0_o

Because they did....

Also because said CSM were not wearing helmets, because "rule of cool" does not actually exist in-universe, and, also, because Power Armor and Space Marine augmentations are not infallible.

Gaunt got one in the seam of its chestplate/backplate with his powersword, the tribals poisoned one far over his ability to strain out the toxin (and shot him like 20 times in the head with bows), Larkin popped one with his rifle through the eyepiece, Mkvenner.... did Mkvenner things to one... Brostin set one on fire, I think, with his flamer? I forget, been a few years since I read the Gaunt series, but, yeah, basically Gaunt, five Ghosts, and a tribe of naked tribesmen armed with bows and arrows kill an entire squad of CSM.

**Bobthehero**

They actually fired a ton of arrows at an un-helmeted Marine, the rest died to power weapon, plasma guns, demo charges and poisonned arrows in the joints.

**brother marcus**

For the same reason arrows killed medeval knights. Armour only works where there is armour

And poison arrows can beat the immune system of an adept Astarte !! I seriously doubt that

**CthuluIsSpy**

Bobthehero wrote:
They actually fired a ton of arrows at an un-helmeted Marine, the rest died to power weapon, plasma guns, demo charges and poisonned arrows in the joints.

Oh, that makes more sense. Must be pretty nasty poison.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

brother marcus wrote:
For the same reason arrows killed medeval knights. Armour only works where there is armour

Platemail is much worse than PA, and besides, bows weren't that effective against knights. Unless it's a crossbow or steel tipped, it's not going to penetrate the armor. Now, what arrows could do is knock the knight over; at Agincourt, while the arrows didn't pierce the armor, the sheer impact from that many hits caused the knights to fall over and get stuck in the mud. As it turns out, when you fall down in full plate, it's really hard to get back up. After the knights were down, the English soldiers just went up and slit their throats.

**Bobthehero**

It isn't that hard to stand up in plate armor, considering knights were generally in great shape.

The problem is that arrows killed the horses and that the terran was muddy as hell, that made standing up a hassle, the Englishmen were also on a hill.

**brother marcus**

I was more referring to the gaps in the armour I.e. neck greaves,eyes and joints are not armoured to the same extent and could be easily penetrated. In the bow vs power armour though I doubt it would even chip the paint but a headshot unhelmeted would still kill a marine

**CthuluIsSpy**

brother marcus wrote:
I was more referring to the gaps in the armour I.e. neck greaves,eyes and joints are not armoured to the same extent and could be easily penetrated. In the bow vs power armour though I doubt it would even chip the paint but a headshot unhelmeted would still kill a marine

Oh yeah, certainly. The carapace might provide some protection, but an arrow in the eye will be nasty.

**Psienesis**

Platemail is much worse than PA, and besides, bows weren't that effective against knights. Unless it's a crossbow or steel tipped, it's not going to penetrate the armor. Now, what arrows could do is knock the knight over; at Agincourt, while the arrows didn't pierce the armor, the sheer impact from that many hits caused the knights to fall over and get stuck in the mud. As it turns out, when you fall down in full plate, it's really hard to get back up. After the knights were down, the English soldiers just went up and slit their throats.

The longbow easily threw an arrow through an armored knight at a hundred yards or more. Crossbows did, too, but not at such range, or with such rates of fire.

The idea that platemail is hard to move in is bunk, and has been shown to be false by modern-day people putting plate armor on, running around, jumping, swimming!, dancing, sitting, laying on the ground, getting back up...

The dagger-through-the-eyeslit thing is for when you, as another knight, beat the hell out of the other guy and had exhausted him.

This is why plate mail advanced as it did, offering curved and angled breastplates and pauldrons (and other bits, too) to deflect arrows, bolts and blows away from the body. That fancy-ass Ogilvie plate was as ornate as it was because all those spines, spires, and spikes served to trap an opponent's weapon and move it away from the wearer.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Actually, they ran some experiments with long bows against Steel Plate Armor. They found the iron head was too weak to reliably penetrate the steel. Steel tips performed better, but iron heads were more common back then.

But yes, crossbows just tore armor up.

**Swastakowey**

Also being hit in armour doesnt mean you wont feel the blow or suffer broken ribs and so on. The greek hoplite would have broken ribs if he took an arrow to his chestplate. Armour doesnt stop you being hurt and so on, it merely stops things from peircing your body. The same goes for all armour. (Including tanks). Unless depending on the angle it bounces off which im fairly deflects the force away too.

And horses could take arrows pretty well apparently. Bullets changed all that though.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Swastakowey wrote:
Also being hit in armour doesnt mean you wont feel the blow or suffer broken ribs and so on. The greek hoplite would have broken ribs if he took an arrow to his chestplate. Armour doesnt stop you being hurt and so on, it merely stops things from peircing your body. The same goes for all armour. (Including tanks). Unless depending on the angle it bounces off which im fairly deflects the force away too.

Yep. That's why maces were so effective; the sheer force from one caused internal damage, no matter what armor a soldier was wearing.

**RoadToRuin**

Well theres only one way to decide.. NO RULES NO SAFETY NO MERCY, IT'S A DUEL TO THE DEATH TO DECIDE WHO IS THE DEADLIEST WARRIOR!

**Psienesis**

Between a medieval knight in platemail and a Stormtrooper of the Imperium of Man?

I'm gonna go with the guy with the Hellgun.

**Melissia**

I imagine if he doesn't die from the laser exploding his heart, he'd die in a lot of pain as the metal melts in to his flesh.

**Furyou Miko**

Psienesis wrote:

The dagger-through-the-eyeslit thing is for when you, as another knight, beat the hell out of the other guy and had exhausted him.

Or for when you've knocked his horse out from under him and he's pinned by a five hundred kilos of thoroughbred equine.

**Wyzilla**

Swastakowey wrote:
Also being hit in armour doesnt mean you wont feel the blow or suffer broken ribs and so on. The greek hoplite would have broken ribs if he took an arrow to his chestplate. Armour doesnt stop you being hurt and so on, it merely stops things from peircing your body. The same goes for all armour. (Including tanks). Unless depending on the angle it bounces off which im fairly deflects the force away too.

And horses could take arrows pretty well apparently. Bullets changed all that though.

Actually, the lethality of arrows is severely overstated in popular culture. They weren't the sure-fire weapon modern movies constantly attempt to shove down your throat and would be near useless against someone in armor compared to other defenses like pikemen, because the ideal weapon to fight knights is one capable of ripping his armor open like a lobster while staying as far away as possible.

And seriously people, basic bloody logic here. Energy Weapons do not behave remotely similar to Kinetic Weapons. There's no damn recoil from a lasgun. There's also no hurtling impact from a lasgun, just heat. Their armor tanks this heat because that's what it was built to do, and the entire point of ceramite.

Also, bolters will pierce Carapace armor irregardless of range (and they also have greater range than all lasgun weaponry) thanks to the admantanium tip, which will mulch right through their armor. Unless we're talking at ranges so hilariously large that the bolter shell or 'bolt' literally loses its force and drops off into the dirt, the lasguns won't be of any use either.

**Melissia**

Wyzilla wrote:
There's no damn recoil from a lasgun.

Superheated air leaving rapidly the barrel because of its absurdly fast expansion. You would be accurate if you said there is likely to be less recoil, but not none. Really though, most modern military firearms have remarkably low recoil anyway.

Wyzilla wrote:
There's also no hurtling impact from a lasgun

Actually, lasbolts are described as exploding on impact, because it superheats the material it hits as well as the air around it, creating a miniature cloud of plasma that rapidly expands (and thus, "explodes").

For one that is trying to make arguments based off of science, you haven't really thought this through.

**Swastakowey**

Wyzilla wrote:
Swastakowey wrote:
Also being hit in armour doesnt mean you wont feel the blow or suffer broken ribs and so on. The greek hoplite would have broken ribs if he took an arrow to his chestplate. Armour doesnt stop you being hurt and so on, it merely stops things from peircing your body. The same goes for all armour. (Including tanks). Unless depending on the angle it bounces off which im fairly deflects the force away too.

And horses could take arrows pretty well apparently. Bullets changed all that though.

Actually, the lethality of arrows is severely overstated in popular culture. They weren't the sure-fire weapon modern movies constantly attempt to shove down your throat and would be near useless against someone in armor compared to other defenses like pikemen, because the ideal weapon to fight knights is one capable of ripping his armor open like a lobster while staying as far away as possible.

And seriously people, basic bloody logic here. Energy Weapons do not behave remotely similar to Kinetic Weapons. There's no damn recoil from a lasgun. There's also no hurtling impact from a lasgun, just heat. Their armor tanks this heat because that's what it was built to do, and the entire point of ceramite.

Umm have you used a bow an arrow? I made a toy one out of nylon and bamboo and it made a deep hole in a small tree... with no arrow head. Ripping armour open? Seriously? you COULD MAYBE crack it open, if that. Im not trying to say arrows are like those homing arrows in the lord of the rings etc. Im just saying arrows break bones and cause severe bruising, as you would expect. Thats why they had sheilds...

**Bobthehero**

Until plate armor showed its ugly face, shield became useless and the second hand was used to use weapons needed to defeat plate armor

**Furyou Miko**

Wyzilla wrote:

Actually, the lethality of arrows is severely overstated in popular culture. They weren't the sure-fire weapon modern movies constantly attempt to shove down your throat and would be near useless against someone in armor compared to other defenses like pikemen, because the ideal weapon to fight knights is one capable of ripping his armor open like a lobster while staying as far away as possible.

Yeah... you're full of it. Having person first-hand knowledge of what you're talking about, an arrow will go through plate armour at moderate ranges when loosed by a bow with a large enough draw - not the pathetic draw most modern archers have, but the proper 185lbs draw welsh longbow? No problem.

By the way, if you're firing an arrow, you're doing something seriously wrong.

**Melissia**

Most infantry wouldn't use plate armor anyway, if I remember correctly, so it was still quite useful for most infantry. Plate armor was expensive. You'd equip your veterans, your elites, your nobles with it. Not your average Spearman Joe.