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Whether or not boltguns "Care" about carapace depends on which fiction you read, but generally I'd say carapace is very useful against it. Hell, even in the Cain books where a boltgun shattered carapace armor it still saved the wearer's life.

 Psienesis wrote:
Exactly that, easysauce.

If the Stormtroopers were able to successfully spring an ambush on the Space Marines, you'd have a bunch of dead Space Marines in very short order, because hellguns give not a single feth about Power Armor.

By the same token, boltguns don't really care about carapace, and in close-quarters combat, the Marine has the size, speed and strength to easily overpower a Stormtrooper.

It sets a rather unrealistic premise though. You'd need an ambush, and I assume both units have some kind of auspex as standard issue, not to mention the autosenses of the Marines.

Not to mention both most likely being trained to actually use said equipment properly, greatly reducing the risk of being ambushed.

A squad of stormtroopers could give a squad of Marines a run for its money in an open firefight. They'll still die to a man in the end, though.

Talking about ambush scenarios and asymmetrical tactics is kind of dumb, though. Anything can happen once you start throwing in "but what if's".

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Not to mention both most likely being trained to actually use said equipment properly, greatly reducing the risk of being ambushed.

The assertion that Space Marines can never be ambushed is amusing considering how many times Space Marines have been ambushed.

It wouldn't be too hard to trick them in to an ambush BECAUSE you know that your opponent has an auspex and knows how to use it

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Not to mention both most likely being trained to actually use said equipment properly, greatly reducing the risk of being ambushed.

The assertion that Space Marines can never be ambushed is amusing considering how many times Space Marines have been ambushed.

It wouldn't be too hard to trick them in to an ambush BECAUSE you know that your opponent has an auspex and knows how to use it

I said that it was highly unlikely, not that they can never be ambushed.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I said that it was highly unlikely, not that they can never be ambushed.

The assertion that Space Marines are unlikely to be ambushed is amusing considering how many times Space Marines have been ambushed.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Exactly that, easysauce.

If the Stormtroopers were able to successfully spring an ambush on the Space Marines, you'd have a bunch of dead Space Marines in very short order, because hellguns give not a single feth about Power Armor.

By the same token, boltguns don't really care about carapace, and in close-quarters combat, the Marine has the size, speed and strength to easily overpower a Stormtrooper.

It sets a rather unrealistic premise though. You'd need an ambush, and I assume both units have some kind of auspex as standard issue, not to mention the autosenses of the Marines.

Not to mention both most likely being trained to actually use said equipment properly, greatly reducing the risk of being ambushed.

So it again comes to a coin-toss between these two units in most scenarios. Who sees who first, and who fires the first shots, because that is going to be the group that wins. Nothing in the SM's wargear is designed to, or even capable of, dealing with a hellgun.

STs can carry an auspex, too. They are trained to fight any enemy mankind may face (including Chaos Space Marines). They can use all sorts of high-tech military equipment, being that they are the most-elite of the IG's elite special forces.

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I said that it was highly unlikely, not that they can never be ambushed.

The assertion that Space Marines are unlikely to be ambushed is amusing considering how many times Space Marines have been ambushed.

In BL fluff?

Seems entirely plausible to me. You'd only write stories about the toughest fights, the ambushes etc, because the bazillion untold stories of Marines doing their job as planned and completely walking over their target does not make for a selling novel.

YMMV, mind.

But yes, there's a lot of factors in it. What if the Stormtroopers have demo charges? What if the Marines have Storm Shields? What if...

Once you go what iffing, it's not much more to be said.

That's my two cents o/

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I said that it was highly unlikely, not that they can never be ambushed.

The assertion that Space Marines are unlikely to be ambushed is amusing considering how many times Space Marines have been ambushed.

There is also a high number of times that lone Marines have defeated many times their number of orks/traitor guard by themselves in the fluff.

But you would call that plot-induced stupidity, wouldn't you?

Delicious, delicious double-standards.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I said that it was highly unlikely, not that they can never be ambushed.

The assertion that Space Marines are unlikely to be ambushed is amusing considering how many times Space Marines have been ambushed.

There is also a high number of times that lone Marines have defeated many times their number of orks/traitor guard by themselves in the fluff.

But you would call that plot-induced stupidity, wouldn't you?

Delicious, delicious double-standards.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Delicious, delicious double-standards.

It's not a double standard to assert that you can ambush Space Marines-- really, there's no fluff suggesting that they can't be ambushed. Probably the most iconic, core lore for Space Marines-- that is, the Space Hulk concept-- involves them facing potential ambushes and trying to get out of it alive. And that often even involves veteran Space Marines in terminator suits, so they're even better equipped.

Space Marines are ambushed. It's not saying they're unskilled or anything. No one can predict all things that can happen on a battlefield. Space Marines do generally fare better than other forces that are ambushed, though, because most of the time they don't face enemies that can kill them all before they can properly react.

Stormtroopers are one of the few enemies who can do exactly that.

Orks and Traitor Guards didn't have hellguns.

The greatest threat to any Imperial force is another Imperial force.

Orks don't need hellguns, they have Orks, and there's no problem that cannot be solved by throwing more Orks at it

 Psienesis wrote:
Orks and Traitor Guards didn't have hellguns.

The greatest threat to any Imperial force is another Imperial force.

¨

I dunno, I'd say a Chaos force, Eldar force, Tyranid force etc. can be threatening as well.

Threatening, yes, without a doubt.

The *greatest* threat to any Imperial force is another Imperial force.

Most Chaos forces are former Imperial forces anyway.

Thinking of this from another angle, think of all that a squad of Inquistorial Stormtroopers and Tactical Marines could get done if they were working side by side.

 Melissia wrote:
Orks don't need hellguns, they have Orks, and there's no problem that cannot be solved by throwing more Orks at it

Maybe we can make something that can throw orks at it over long distances...

Works great with IG to (it's them with the words reversed ).

Shokk Attack Gun.

And don't forget grot bombs!

 Melissia wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Delicious, delicious double-standards.

It's not a double standard to assert that you can ambush Space Marines

No one made the assertion that it's impossible to ambush Space Marines- that was your strawman. The assertion Haraldus made is that it is exceptionally hard to ambush Space Marines because of all the technology they're packing in their visors and auspex- which is true.

My point is that I just think it's funny how quickly people will point to the Black Library whenever they want to highlight Space Marine weaknesses, but cries of inconsistency is the first counter-assertion when the same source is used to highlight their strength.

Space Marines are much better than Storm Troopers and are much more likely to win in most engagements. Particularly in close-combat, I could see a single Marine tearing through a whole squad of Stormtroopers up close.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
It's not a double standard to assert that you can ambush Space Marines-- really, there's no fluff suggesting that they can't be ambushed. Probably the most iconic, core lore for Space Marines-- that is, the Space Hulk concept-- involves them facing potential ambushes and trying to get out of it alive. And that often even involves veteran Space Marines in terminator suits, so they're even better equipped.

Genestealers are far better at ambushes than the vast majority of Storm Troopers.

Also, Space Hulks by their very nature tend to involve a much smaller amount of Marines with no support being in deeply dangerous enemy territory... And they still tend to win.

Space Marines are ambushed. It's not saying they're unskilled or anything. No one can predict all things that can happen on a battlefield. Space Marines do generally fare better than other forces that are ambushed, though, because most of the time they don't face enemies that can kill them all before they can properly react.

Stormtroopers are one of the few enemies who can do exactly that.

A Hellgun has just as much punch as a lasgun, despite its penetrative power. Which is to say not much.

You are on drugs if you believe that a hellgun, which penetrates power armor like it's not there, then delivers the same "punch" to the target inside that PA as a standard lasgun.

That's... no. Not even close.

In DH I think they deal two more points of damage than the regular las gun.

1 point more in Only War, and you can't overcharge it.

 Bobthehero wrote:
1 point more in Only War, and you can't overcharge it.

It's a bit more, aye, but still a fair distance left to the Astartes Boltgun in actual damage.

Actually going by Only War stats, a boltgun got a single damage over the Hellgun and less penetration.

The Astartes boltgun from Deathwatch was badly broken, design-wise, and was, iirc, FAQ'd back into the realm of plausibility.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Delicious, delicious double-standards.

It's not a double standard to assert that you can ambush Space Marines

No one made the assertion that it's impossible to ambush Space Marines- that was your strawman. The assertion Haraldus made is that it is exceptionally hard to ambush Space Marines because of all the technology they're packing in their visors and auspex- which is true.

IG stormtroopers carry similar equipment, possibly even better, they even used to be able to premeasure shooting back in 3E/4E when almost nothing else in the game could to represent their advanced targeting gear, and, ultimately, equipment can be fooled or overcome, or be put in situations where it's irrelevant.

My point is that I just think it's funny how quickly people will point to the Black Library whenever they want to highlight Space Marine weaknesses, but cries of inconsistency is the first counter-assertion when the same source is used to highlight their strength.

Can we just all agree that BL writing is monstrously inconsistent in general? A lot of it's little more than polle-polishing Bolter Porn/Treadhead Porn.

The power level of whatever you're looking at is likely more corrolated with if they're the protagonist and who the author is than anything else.

 Psienesis wrote:
You are on drugs if you believe that a hellgun, which penetrates power armor like it's not there, then delivers the same "punch" to the target inside that PA as a standard lasgun.

That's... no. Not even close.

Well, Melissia certainly believes that to be the case.

After all, her asserted evidence for why ork shootas are as strong as bolters is that they're both strength 4 on the tabletop.

Well, hellguns in the tabletop are AP3, but their strength stat is 3, the same strength as a lasgun. So, there you go!

 Vaktathi wrote:
IG stormtroopers carry similar equipment, possibly even better, they even used to be able to premeasure shooting back in 3E/4E when almost nothing else in the game could to represent their advanced targeting gear, and, ultimately, equipment can be fooled or overcome, or be put in situations where it's irrelevant.

Can we just all agree that BL writing is monstrously inconsistent in general? A lot of it's little more than polle-polishing Bolter Porn/Treadhead Porn.

The power level of whatever you're looking at is likely more corrolated with if they're the protagonist and who the author is than anything else.

I don't doubt that they have similar gear; I'd have to see some fluff evidence for superior though.

I don't agree that Black Library is that inconsistent- the majority of incidents people use to assert that its inconsistent are actually just events with context that they either missed or ignored; case in point, the marine being killed by a lasgun in First and Only, and the Marine being killed by the poison arrows in Traitor General: in the first instance, the marine was not wearing a helmet, and was shot in the face by what was basically a hot-shot lasgun in all but name, and in the second instance the Marine was not wearing a helmet, and was shot dozens of times in the face by arrows dipped in poison so deadly that they killed normal men instantly, these arrows were also sharp enough to penetrate flakk armor. Just an example of common instances Dakkaites bring up to cry about the Black Library, but are too stupid to remember the context for.

Anyway, whether the BL is inconsistent or not isn't the point. The point is that certain people who believe that the BL is inconsistent have no problems with using it as evidence when it suits them, which is pretty contemptible.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Astartes boltgun from Deathwatch was badly broken, design-wise, and was, iirc, FAQ'd back into the realm of plausibility.

The devs, in the FAQ, basically wrote a letter openly admitting they made the characters in to overpowered power fantasies and that it didn't represent the lore accurately.