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I may be starting chaos marines, but the only thing I have decided on is that I will get a heldrake if I start (because they are Awesome)!

Things like the best warband/legion, tactics, army lists, what to buy first and any other advice you feel is necessary!

Thanks in advance!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I meant `advise me on ` not `things` on the start of the second line !

Just dont start m8 better invest your money on a more competitive army.

It's not long since I started playing Chaos myself so I can't offer expert advice, but I've picked up some general things.

Units to avoid getting: Possessed, warp talons, defilers, vindicator, mutilators, berzerkers, thousand sons.

Units to consider getting: spawn, bikers, cultists, havocs, obliterators, heldrakes, plague marines (I use regular CSM models as plague marines), noise marines.

If you don't have a legion or warband in mind and you just want to be (mildly) competitive, you do have some options. GrafWattenburg's advice is a good start. Add to the list Maulerfiends and small units of deep striking terminators with combi-meltas.

The better units in the codex lend themselves well (in my opinion) to Death Guard, Iron Warriors, or maybe Word Bearers. That's if you want to stick with one of the original legions. You can always make up a warband of your own too, which makes things more of a free-for-all.

How about don't play CSM? Unless you really like Heldrakes and forced challenges, that is.

CSM isn't a very good army. They have a few decent builds, mostly centered around the Heldrake, but the book itself has awful internal balance, the horrid Champions of Chaos mechanic and Legions have almost no presence.

Great for naughty marines and their obligatory 2 drakes, bad for people who like Legions and variety.

you want to have fun? play Chaos Marines. (or whatever army)

you never want to hear the end of how stupid you were for playing Chaos Marines? play Chaos Marines (that is not Tau or another super tier 1 book) and post about it here.

Not every CSM army is HELDRAAAAKE!, only the unimaginative "competitive" players insist that it is. Noise Marines and Mark of Slaanesh are nasty. Trust me, I play against them a lot.

CSM is pretty much codex: Helldrake. You'll end up there sooner rather than later if you want to win games against other 6th ed codices.

Cultists are your friends. The CSM codex if full of fun, but expensive toys and running cheap cultists as your scoring units allows you to field enough of the expensive units to compete. Add in the fact that Chaos Space Marines as troops are underwhelming and it's pretty much a no-brainer.

Chaos Daemons being a Battle Brother is pretty epic as well. You can get some fun units to play with and don't even have to worry about the Warp Storm table. Fateweaver and his 1 re-roll a turn can really help a Heldrake or Forgefiend make that 5++ when needed or get another chance to gain a wound/HP back when you fail an IT WILL NOT DIE roll. Or, a unit of Flesh Hounds can be a perfect unit to stick your Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut Mount as he swings his Axe of Blind Fury around his head (another great use for Fateweaver...rerolling a 1 on a demon weapon).

I could go on, but it would mostly just echo what other have already said. Just note that Chaos Space Marines aren't as bad as most would make you believe. They suffer from being compared to the Tau and Eldar....as does every other codex.

 Voidwraith wrote:


Chaos Daemons being a Battle Brother is pretty epic as well. You can get some fun units to play with and don't even have to worry about the Warp Storm table. Fateweaver and his 1 re-roll a turn can really help a Heldrake or Forgefiend make that 5++ when needed or get another chance to gain a wound/HP back when you fail an IT WILL NOT DIE roll. Or, a unit of Flesh Hounds can be a perfect unit to stick your Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut Mount as he swings his Axe of Blind Fury around his head (another great use for Fateweaver...rerolling a 1 on a demon weapon).

Unfortunately Daemon units can't join any CSM units. It would of been awesome if they could but the Daemon Codex denys this.

Other than cast blessing on each, i can't see what been Battle Brothers does for CSM's & Daemons.

CSM army's are great if you like converting & painting, you can really go to town on your models & end up with some fanatic results. Also they can be a blast to play when you aren't spamming Heldrakes & your opponent isn't spamming WS/Reiptides etc..

While the book has problems, I wont deny that, it can still be fun to play & collect.

Sw0rd of the emperor wrote:
I may be starting chaos marines, but the only thing I have decided on is that I will get a heldrake if I start (because they are Awesome)!

Things like the best warband/legion, tactics, army lists, what to buy first and any other advice you feel is necessary!

Thanks in advance!
!

Well there's obviously a whole lot of negativity against the book, and quite a bit of it justified unfortunately. Chaos Marines are not in a great place right now.

Best Legion? There are none. Take what you like because none of it actually has any relevance besides the background. The current book seems to like the 'Warband' model made up of various splinters rather than the older 'Legion' model. No Legion has any special rules any more so you can quite happily throw down any combination and it will work.

In terms of best/worst units, it's rather black and white with this army. Most are awful while a handful are exceptionally good, so you tend to see the same few favourites pop up repeatedly.
In a league of its own- Heldrake. Buy one, buy 2, field them all and watch the world burn.
The good- Huron, Typhus, Chaos Lord, Sorcerer (Unmarked), Daemon Prince, Plague Zombies, Terminators (Suicide drops), Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Bikers, Spawn, Obliterators (Nurgle), Maulerfiends (In multiples)
The bad- Everything else really. You might notice that this includes both of your Troops choices. Therefore, a Lord of Slaanesh or Nurgle is a very very good plan because you get nice Cult troops. Otherwise I players tend to take a few token Cultist squads and just keep them safe while the rest of the list gets to work. Plague Zombies are the only ones I would consider legitimately 'good' units.

To start with, it's worth getting some Cultists and a HQ. eBay is your friend for the Cultists and I personally prefer the Sorcerer with a Bike and no Mark for a HQ. After that, expect Obliterators and Heldrakes to be in every army you ever write so get comfortable with them. Spawn and Maulerfiends work well as a rapid-assault force, while a Nurgle Lord and Plague Marines gives you a fantastic core to the army. Slaaneshii Lords and Noise Marines are a viable alternative to this that trade resilience and Plasma for face-melting anti-infantry firepower and cheaper prices.

Common list templates:

1- Typhus, hordes of Plague Zombies, 2-3 Heldrakes and 2-3 squads of Nurgle Obliterators. It's mono-Nurgle so thematic and essentially involves a wall of Zombies waddling up while the 'Drakes and Obliterators do all the actual work.
2- Slaaneshii Lord, multiple squads of Noise Marines with Blastmasters, 2-3 Heldrakes and Nurgle Obliterators.
3- Nurgle Lord, 2-3 mechanised Plague Marines, 2-3 Heldrakes, 0-1 Nurgle Spawn and Nurgle Obliterators
4- Undivided Sorcerer, a few min-Cultists, 1-2 Heldrakes, 1-2 Nurgle Spawn, 3 Maulerfiends.

Daemon Allies are also a very good option when you can, they fill a lot of holes in the army,

 Nakor The BlueRider wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:


Chaos Daemons being a Battle Brother is pretty epic as well. You can get some fun units to play with and don't even have to worry about the Warp Storm table. Fateweaver and his 1 re-roll a turn can really help a Heldrake or Forgefiend make that 5++ when needed or get another chance to gain a wound/HP back when you fail an IT WILL NOT DIE roll. Or, a unit of Flesh Hounds can be a perfect unit to stick your Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut Mount as he swings his Axe of Blind Fury around his head (another great use for Fateweaver...rerolling a 1 on a demon weapon).

Unfortunately Daemon units can't join any CSM units. It would of been awesome if they could but the Daemon Codex denys this.

Other than cast blessing on each, i can't see what been Battle Brothers does for CSM's & Daemons.

CSM army's are great if you like converting & painting, you can really go to town on your models & end up with some fanatic results. Also they can be a blast to play when you aren't spamming Heldrakes & your opponent isn't spamming WS/Reiptides etc..

While the book has problems, I wont deny that, it can still be fun to play & collect.

My mistake. My buddy plays both armies, so although I have a lot of experience playing AGAINST them, I rarely have the books to do the sort of rule-reading session that would uncover the fact that Demonic Instability keeps non-Codex: Chaos Daemon ICs from joining units from C:CD. I was just assuming that Khorne Marked ICs would be able to join a battle brother unit of Khorne from the C:CD, but that doesn't appear to be the case. Bummer.

Regardless, the Chaos Daemon Codex is still full of great units that make fun additions to a C:SM army.

Just to clarify, I am a casual, non-competitive gamer. I'd rather have a fun army than an OP one

If you're not here for take 3 Heldrake, no-troops-that-aren't-cultist, spam Heldrakes and pick up the Black Legion supplement so you can take another Heldrake feedback, it's best not to ask about CSM on these boards.



But seriously, if you're a non-competitive gamer, play what you think looks rad and awesome and gives you tinglies in your special parts. Nobody is going to be able to tell you how you want to have fun.

OK, that tingle thing was weird! LOL

If your playing for fun, 3 drakes are neither fun to play with or against.

Sw0rd of the emperor wrote:
Just to clarify, I am a casual, non-competitive gamer. I'd rather have a fun army than an OP one

CSM are neither.

Sw0rd of the emperor wrote:
Just to clarify, I am a casual, non-competitive gamer. I'd rather have a fun army than an OP one

Don't listen to the naysayers. There are very good competitive CSM lists. The first thing to ask when building a list is what units can I take to solve a problem. For instance,

Problem: How do I get denial units into the enemy backfield.

Solution: Take 2-3 units who can deny objectives and get in the enemy backfield.

They don't need to be the same unit 2-3 times, they don't need to be perfect units, they also shouldn't cost to many points and this is where your variety and 'fun' will come in. The more competitive the gamer the more problems their list will need to solve. Don't worry about solving all problems to start. You will learn from playing in games.

The most important rule to remember is do not take advice from negative people. Most of them have a negative reaction to CSM because they have failed to get their own personal army to work and their ego is driving them to convince other people that it is the books fault and not their own.

DarthDiggler wrote:
The most important rule to remember is do not take advice from negative people. Most of them have a negative reaction to CSM because they have failed to get their own personal army to work and their ego is driving them to convince other people that it is the books fault and not their own.

I don't think words can convey how I feel about that statement.

OP says he doesn't care about competition and wants a fun army. I don't think the CSM book is fun regardless of how competitive it may or may not be. Limited options, mechanics that take control away from the player, the continued homogenization of Chaos, the whitewashing of the Legions and forcing you to take 2 Codices to make a proper Chaos army are all not fun for me. Hell, at this point, I just want an Alpha Legion army that isn't counts-as Red Corsairs, Raven Guard or generic spiky marines.

Sword, if you play for fun there is no army more fun to play than Chaos (with Orks being a very close second). You have amazing opportunities for kit-bashing and conversions and lots of random tables (Chaos Rewards etc) that bring moments of sheer hilarity to the table.

There is nothing more satisfying that having your cheap Cultist Champion kill a space marine sgt and then spontaneously turn into a Daemon Prince. Hell, even turning into a Chaos Spawn is an improvement in that case

Do not listen to the nay-sayers. When I play for fun (which is most of the time) I reach for my Chaos miniatures.I even get the notion to take them along to tournaments from time to time, although not if I'm trying to win!

Add in Daemon allies (or Daemons with Chaos Allies) and you get the Warp Storm Table for added hilarity.

So long as you only care about having fun and don't give a damn who wins as long as both players come away smiling, Chaos Marines are the army for you. And that's why I love them. Even when my CSM's are slaughtered ignomiously, I know I'll always have a good time when I table up with them.

And when I do win, (especially when I take down a top-tier Eldar or Tau list with my "joke" of a codex) the victory tastes all the sweeter!

Chaos Daemons make for great allies, for ~200 points you can have a squad of horrors and a herald to sit behind your aegis line (go to ground for re-rollable 2+ cover save!). They shoot well and can prescience your oblits / cultists / whatever.

You could consider taking Bel'akor as your chaos HQ, he has shrouded for easy 2+ cover saves, eternal warrior and all the telepathy psychic powers. If you ally in a herald with the book of true names you can buff him with +2 to his invuln save giving him a 2+ invulnerable save (if the book fails ~1 in 3 chance then you can just fly off the board into reserves). The book will also give Obliterators / Heldrakes a 3++ which can be pretty handy in a clinch. It's not that reliable though unless you bring fateweaver along for the reroll at which point you have to go daemons as primary.

P.S Some folks have said that Possessed are crap. Not so. Possessed without grenades are indeed crap. Possessed plus a decently equipped IC with grenades give my opponents nightmares!

 LeadLegion wrote:
P.S Some folks have said that Possessed are crap. Not so. Possessed without grenades are indeed crap. Possessed plus a decently equipped IC with grenades give my opponents nightmares!

Unfortunately IC only bring enough frag grenades for themselves so can't just hand them out to all thier mates. Only models equipped with frag grenades get to strike on initiative when charging into cover, models that don't have them get stuck striking on I1. This is the opposite of defensive grenades whereby if any model in the unit has the defensive grenades every enemy model charging looses the bonus attack.

If only we could buy a Land Raider Redeemer (which has frag launchers - gives any unit assaulting out of it assault grenades).

If you like CSM go right ahead, I like the faction and have done for years so one bad codex isn't the end of the world as many posters on these boards will have you believe. I even win games.

There's a couple of units which I would still avoid like the plague, Mutilators come to mind here, but you can get some mileage out of most entries once you start ignoring the "wisdom" of the internet and start investing in your own.

I'll be starting an Iron Warriors army so to capture what I imagine an Iron Warriors army to be like (not full of helldrakes and plague marines)...I have to use Codex: Space marine. Makes total sense.

Martel732 wrote:
CSM is pretty much codex: Helldrake. You'll end up there sooner rather than later if you want to win games against other 6th ed codices.

Wrong. There's a number of armies that don't care bout helldrakes at all. For example, i've played platoon ig with Tigurius + conscripts with comissar. U'd say Drakes are good vs masses...But generally they killed like 10 conscripts and like 5 guards per turn (this 4++ is handy). I didn't even bother spreading out. So it's like 340 pts of heldrakes killing like...70-80 pts of troops per turn. And they usually won't be around more than 3 turns cause of reserves and flying off board. Also u'll need to spend some points on a reserve insurance if you depend on drakes.
Generally they're great, don't cost very much, are rather durable with 5++ and iwnd, have uses on board and the most important: 3+ guyz hate them. But they're not an auto-win. Personally I'd never take more than 2 drakes even on big scale games cause as soon as you meet hordes or serpent spam (cause serpents are shooting starting from turn 1 and till the end of the game while drakes are coming out on turn 2-3 than pouring fire for like 2 turns than entering ongoing reserves when they're most needed - turn 4-5), drakes lose effectiveness. And don't forget what are gona new armies be. Right. Tyranids, Ig, Orkses.
Don't think i'm telling drakes are bad. They're great but not omnipotent! If you take 1 or 2 u're gona be ok. If you take 6 u're putting all the eggs in 1 basket and it will result in either an easy win or crushing defeat. Either way you and u'r opponent are not recieving no fun.

So let's talk on what else this codex brings that might work:
-Spawns + Indep. Either take biker indep lord or sorc depending on what you need more - lord is great in mellee while sorc has some nasty things he can offer like telepathy or slaanesh powers. There are even some viable combinations like Typhus + spawns (used on ETC). Spawns are tough and cheap. Nurgle spawns are t6 which makes them even tougher. Also a nurgle lord with stuff like pf+lc is terrifying in mellee cause of t6 and no instadeath cept for force weapons but who's gona survive till then?
-Bikes + Indep. Same stuff like spawns but with more tank-hunting in mind rather than brutal mellee and just extra wounds. They're not that tough but a bit faster and can have meltas.
-Obliterators. Go nurgle. 2w t5 in 2+/5++ with a wide variety of weapons and deepstrike. They're versatile and effective.
-Plague marines + Indep in a landraider. Probably less competitive as retinue than spawns and bikers cause they require a landraider and chaos landraiders ain't really that good compared to loyalist's ones also there are lotsa means of dealing with 14-14-14 now. Plague marines on the whole are great and very tough. Also plague marines in squads of 6-7 with a few meltas/plasmas in a rhino are quite good as reliable pointholders and sometimes as harrassment but a single rhino ain't gona last long so mobility is an issue.
-Dragons. Written above. Almost always flamer >> hades ac.
-Winged daemon princes. Expensive, not as durable as u'd like but they're great casters and support when needed. Can bash sculls when needed. Be'lakor

That's your main strike force that's gona work.

U also might consider other good units like:
-Devastators. Your long-ranged support. I'd go ac or lc.
-Predators. Good tanks. Laz predators are rather cheap, have 13-11-10 and do the damage. If not shot from the side they're durable enough to be useful.
-Noize marines. They're great from time to time. Expensive but are quite nice with ignore cover and tons of mid range dakka. Though they're stationary now.
-Maulerfiends. Used in spawn-biker-landraider rush lists. They're fast, don't hit very hard but are working if used wisely.
-Cultists. Main backfield pointholders + they're great as zombies if you have Typhus. Also there's some use as a Bauble-wrap to your indep if they go khorne - they can even kick some heads but not much. And it's very specific, however extremely fun.

Other stuff is considered mediocre or bad. May be used with some effect from time to time though. Even warp talons have their uses. Like dropping a min squad of those guyz vs a low-ini gunline to blind them.
Don't forget that daemons - one of the top tier armies atm - are your battlebrothers.
So people who say "CSM is bad, i want cheeze just to throw dice and steamroll everyone" - just ignore. Probably it's not 1-st place in tourneys but it's more than viable and can go either competitive or fun! Be fluffy!


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 MWHistorian wrote:
I'll be starting an Iron Warriors army so to capture what I imagine an Iron Warriors army to be like (not full of helldrakes and plague marines)...I have to use Codex: Space marine. Makes total sense.

Iron warriors: Devastators, gunline, unmarked marines in rhinos with havoc launchers, aegis defence line or better bastion or even fortress! Warpsmith/Lord with marines or terminators in a landraider. Not competitive but fluffy.

"Unfortunately IC only bring enough frag grenades for themselves so can't just hand them out to all thier mates. Only models equipped with frag grenades get to strike on initiative when charging into cover, models that don't have them get stuck striking on I1. This is the opposite of defensive grenades whereby if any model in the unit has the defensive grenades every enemy model charging looses the bonus attack."

*Facepalm*

 Chumbalaya wrote:

DarthDiggler wrote:
The most important rule to remember is do not take advice from negative people. Most of them have a negative reaction to CSM because they have failed to get their own personal army to work and their ego is driving them to convince other people that it is the books fault and not their own.

I don't think words can convey how I feel about that statement.

OP says he doesn't care about competition and wants a fun army. I don't think the CSM book is fun regardless of how competitive it may or may not be. Limited options, mechanics that take control away from the player, the continued homogenization of Chaos, the whitewashing of the Legions and forcing you to take 2 Codices to make a proper Chaos army are all not fun for me. Hell, at this point, I just want an Alpha Legion army that isn't counts-as Red Corsairs, Raven Guard or generic spiky marines.

He wants a fun army. You don't think they are fun. Lots of other people do. Your negative attitude will not help the OP. Sorry your not good enough to get CSM to work. Keep playing and someday you'll get better. Don't give up.

Things I take as an auto include

2 squads cultists
2 helldrakes
1 squad of unmarked Spawn
1 Juggerlord with Daemon Axe
Belakor

After that, daemon allies would be the next best move


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With them, something with Grimorie and then a mean squad to boost and a troop. If it works, a Heavy DP too.

There's no reason to go after each other on a thread like this. Don't like Helldrakes? Don't use them. I still think CSM is Codex: Helldrake, but GW made that call, not me. CSM is not a skill thing; it's a GW thing.

The bottom line in 6th is that all power armor armies kinda stink. That's what the OP needs to know. Posters on here can wring their hands and try to explain it away, but that doesn't mean they describe reality.

The reality is that every non-meq book in 6th is better than every meq book. The OP needs to know that he's getting into a list that is already in the bottom half of the available codices, and is going nowhere but down.

Sw0rd of the emperor wrote:
Just to clarify, I am a casual, non-competitive gamer. I'd rather have a fun army than an OP one

Direct quote from the OP, just to help direct the thread.

Yes, Tau and Eldar (and the combination of the 2) have made a mockery of power armor, but if you're not heading to a tournament and your buddies aren't playing Space Elves or Fish, Chaos Space Marines are going to do alright. In fact, Codex:Heldrake was the OG when it came to making a mockery of Power Armor. All is not lost...

And what's the point of talking people out of playing non-eldar or tau (or Necrons and Chaos Daemons we're extending to the "other" really good non power armor codecies)? Do we want EVERYONE playing the same army? A quick glance at any forum will show one that Eldar and Tau are the top armies of the day...do we need to slam that point home in a thread asking specifics on another codex?

Besides, the chasm between what we consider to be the best and worst isn't as great as everyone believes. I had a really great game against Tau with my Blood Angels the other day...a game that I lost, but just barely. I also beat my buddies Chaos Daemon Flying Circus list with the same BA list, which is another match-up I normally lose, but it's normally close, and apparently can be won.

It can all be summed up by merely saying: No army is so bad that you can't play it, and no army so good that you must.