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As a Dark Eldar player I decided that I wanted to make a beast pack until...I saw the price. £9 for a single beast master is beyond me when I could buy 5 hellions for 15 and don't get me started on the beasts themselves. So what I came up with is using other models that represent the same rules, for example the Hobbits Fell Wargs look convincingly nasty to deserve the 4 attacks a Khymerae has and I could fit 1/2 gargoyles onto a swarm base to represent razorwings. But my question is if I was to use these models to represent a beastpack, would it be preferred that the models where modified in someway to make them look different from the base model? I am not a very good converter and nearly ruined some scourges by my inexperience with greenstuff and would be afraid to make some change if they weren't needed. Would you prefer it if there was an odd hormagaunt claw sticking out of the Wargs back or a tentacle or would it not matter and I could just use any suitable model to represent them unconverted, say Dire Wolves or Fenrishan Wolves? In the context of local tournaments if that changes anything.

I would play against any count-as or proxy if it is clear enough, but some people might prefer them to be converted and/or manuafactured by GW, so if you want to be sure that people will be willing to play with you you using them it would be better to convert them atleast a little bit.

On the whole, I'll play anything that isn't a cardboard box with 'baneblade' scrawled on it. That said, using Wargs (which I agree are neat models) and Gargoyles for beast packs is in the realm of proxying, whereas adding some bits to them is a conversion, which will probably go down better. I'm not picky, but a lot of people are.

At the end of the day, it'll be the TO's opinion more than any of ours that matters.

If you're not confident with your conversion skills or are stuck for inspiration, try asking for help in the P&M forum. You can get some great advice up there and there are some very experienced converters and painters, so you can get an idea of what to go for instead of going in blind. Also, your skills will grow with practice, so if you're feeling creative, give it a shot. If you know any converters in your area or club, ask them if they would mind giving you some help, I imagine most would probably lend a hand.

I'd avoid GS if you're new, but simple kitbashes and conversions with other plastic parts should be easily. But on the other hand, if you really are afraid to ruin the models, then leave them as-is and I expect your TO/opponent will understand.

Khymerae conversion:

Needed parts

- 2 gene stealer scythe arms.
-Warg body

Step 1:

Bulid the Warg

Step 2:

Drill a hole on the sides of its mane, near the top preferably.

Step 3: plastic glue the genestealer arms to the Warg.

And you have converted 1 Khymerae, simple enough to make, and good enough to use

For the Razorwing, just put a chain around a Gargoyle's neck and call it an enslaved Gargoyle (but state that it is a Razorwing to your opponent), and I would also replace the gun arms with arms from Hormagaunts or genestealers, simple enough to do and have a great looking model with little to no GS required

Warhounds from the Warriors of Chaos range work well for Khymerae, and as they're from a different range, people would have a hard time confusing them with anything from 40k (Fenrisian wolves, or whathaveyou).

Plus, they're relatively cheap. Just need some alt bases.

 Paradigm wrote:
On the whole, I'll play anything that isn't a cardboard box with 'baneblade' scrawled on it.

I know someone who once used a red plastic cup as a drop pod. They're actually about the same size!

I am totally behind conversions and well-thought out proxies, especially for models that are stupidly overpriced. I myself looked at the Wargs to use as Fenrisian Wolves for my 13th Company Space Wolves, both before AND after the official ones came out.

wfischer wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
On the whole, I'll play anything that isn't a cardboard box with 'baneblade' scrawled on it.

I know someone who once used a red plastic cup as a drop pod. They're actually about the same size!

Oh, I think almost every SM player has been guilty of using cup pods at some point. I think I've only done it once, but I have done it. I am fine with proxies so long as you are eventually looking to buy the model, or testing first, but I'd draw the line at something that was clearly someone trying to powergame with minimal effort.

Let's put it like this, I expect someone I play to put some effort into their models. If this means conversions, count as, replacements or original model is not remotely interesting. It should be clear what the model represents, and preferably go with the aesthetic you choose for your army. Cardboard cut outs, etc, isn't OK, except for the odd model or so, but don't make it a habit.

For my own part, I made a green stuff vase that I attached a missile launcher to as a joke count as "Corsair with Eldar Missile Launcher" - or "Ming Vase with Missile Launcher attached" since I hadn't finished the model conversion necessary. Didn't use it all that much.

My Marine army, on the other hand, goes by this theme:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/570786-Tactical%20Marines.html
Complete conversions every single model except the drop pods. There's less than 20% GW produced materials in that army. I plan on letting FW into the mix, but only because some of their Legion models makes sense, fits in, and doesn't look daft.

Any proxy or counts-as that uses actual miniatures or miniature conversions they had to purchase gets a free pass from me. Green stuff sculpting and cardstock scratch builds are also okay since they took considerable effort to create.

People that 3D print, papercraft, use coins, or use cheap toys as proxies require more consideration, but I'll usually allow it just to get some games and because nobody likes being refused a game.

Whats wrong with 3d printing?

Conversions are one of the 4 main aspects of the "GW hobby"TM , i expect them as any other part and to the degree of any other part. It is pretty much like painting where some will paint bad and some will good and an army without paint or no conversion is a bit bland for me.

Conversions are an awesome part of the hobby. The only problem imo is when they're half-assed. Using Ork arms to make musclebound renegades is great. Leaving Ork symbols on them is not.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
Any proxy or counts-as that uses actual miniatures or miniature conversions they had to purchase gets a free pass from me. Green stuff sculpting and cardstock scratch builds are also okay since they took considerable effort to create.

People that 3D print, papercraft, use coins, or use cheap toys as proxies require more consideration, but I'll usually allow it just to get some games and because nobody likes being refused a game.

3d printing takes considerable effort if you create the 3d models yourself. Computer Modeling, printing, and painting a model takes a good deal of effort.

wfischer wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
On the whole, I'll play anything that isn't a cardboard box with 'baneblade' scrawled on it.

I know someone who once used a red plastic cup as a drop pod. They're actually about the same size!

Man!.... who remembers the old Armorcast Ork drop pod? Tell me that thing isnt a "ridged" soup can with a funnel on top!

When it comes to third party models, I'm down with proxying if they look like what they represent. (The Raging Heroes Kurganovas representing a commissar, say.) If it doesn't look quite right, I'd expect a conversion. In your case, I think a modicum of alteration to give them a departure from 'monster' and take them to 'alien monster' would be appropriate.

I have a friend who might be able to help, although it will cost me around half of my bitz box as payment! Happy go lucky's idea seems the easiest and I do have a lot of spare talos talon-y arm-y things so that would be 'quite' easy. My biggest concern is the safety of the model if they have talons jutting out at all angles and that the added bitz might just fall off anyhow.

On a side note, would you be accepting of 2 'combat evolved' gargoyles on a large base and me playing them as razorwings?

Ebay is a good source for cheap models to convert up. If you are worried about ruining expansive models, then practice on cheap ones! AN alternative is always using cheap toys, like toy bigs, from the pound store. Either straight use them, or have a go at some conversions.

Also, wargs painted with blue fur and patterns would make them alien looking?

In this particular case I would be okay with it, as beastmasters in the fluff employ all kinds of different beasts.

Personally I've no problem; like many have already said so long as the models are clear in what they are on the table I'm fine with people using proxies.

The only kinds of abuse I don't like are :

1) Attempting to use unit profile size to get around line of sight - using a huge tower of a tank to try and create a blockade against fire; or using a very low profile model to avoid fire. In those cases special consideration needs to taken into account to keep the game fair.

2) Attempting to make units look like other units - this can be as simple as trying to copy the look of one kind of model with another or trying to make the majority of the army look nearly identical - one must be able to tell easily what is where and what is different.
It's also good to tell what is in what squad where similar squads are deployed and operating near each other.


Otherwise conversions are a big part of the hobby; from small detail changes up to using whole models from other ranges or even major conversions or sculpting. In general you won't get any opposition to a well converted army - however GW stores will generally not allow/discourage the use of 3rd party models and tournaments might also restrict their use also.
You might get away using a mount from another range, but it really depends. I'd always ensure that you ask before you take things to a tournament to find out; and if you can't ask at least take a backup army list that you can use without the converted models or regular models so that if they say no you've got a good backup ready (instead of having to drop out and wasting your time)




Things like cardboard or toys or coins etc... I'd honestly only tolerate for someone trying out a new army or new things in the army (esp if they are on limited budgets). I think someone playing like that for long periods of time would be special case if allowed and would be a very rare situation.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
I have a friend who might be able to help, although it will cost me around half of my bitz box as payment! Happy go lucky's idea seems the easiest and I do have a lot of spare talos talon-y arm-y things so that would be 'quite' easy. My biggest concern is the safety of the model if they have talons jutting out at all angles and that the added bitz might just fall off anyhow.

On a side note, would you be accepting of 2 'combat evolved' gargoyles on a large base and me playing them as razorwings?

If your worried about the Strength of the arm joints then add a small dot (as small as you can) of GS, place it into the socket the add plastic glue, should make a firm joint

Hope this helps

I think for the Gargoyles if a large base is natural then it would be ok, if not I think the odd person may have gripes with it, and tourneys may not like that Idea, however I've been to tourneys before with a Ghazkull on a dreadnought sized base (since I feel he looks too weak on a termie sized base) and no one had a problem with that

No problems with what the OP wants. Just say at the beginning of the game what it is, and all is fine.

If playing me, expect me to ask every 5 or 10 minutes, what it is. I do this for everything that is WYSIWYG anyways, since I don't know what is what, unless it's Tyranids that is.

 Overread wrote:


2) Attempting to make units look like other units - this can be as simple as trying to copy the look of one kind of model with another or trying to make the majority of the army look nearly identical - one must be able to tell easily what is where and what is different.
It's also good to tell what is in what squad where similar squads are deployed and operating near each other.

Whats wrong with that?
I made my own darkstrider out of a fire warrior because the "real" model is lousy, and helmet-less soldiers in the battlefield sees odd to me.

Boomwolf - I mean in the context of making a model look like another so that the opponent can't easily discern the two apart on the table top. Thus meaning that the opponent can be led astray as to the position of assets on the table.

That doesn't mean the player is intending to cheat via this move, its more the case of accidental confusion on the table top.

I use Hellions as Beastmasters (suitably converted)

These as Razorwings;



And these as Khýmerae;

This is a game that hinges on the creativity and input of each player. I'd expect it, even if it's just a little conversion here or there.

If you're prepared to wait these are the source for cheap GW made Razorwings. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1130116

I always expect conversions when I convert/modifiy units so much myself. As long as they are roughly the same dimensions as the model they are supposed to represent and have a weapon the same as the one they are said to have (or its distinguishable enough it can be said to be X weapon and not mistaken for another) im fine with it.

 Brother SRM wrote:
This is a game that hinges on the creativity

Wave Serpent
Wave Serpent
Wave Serpent
Wave Serpent

Riptide
Riptide
Riptide

Fateweaver
Herald
Herald
Herald

Jetbike
Jetbike
Jetbike
Jetbike

Sure could've fooled me.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

 Brother SRM wrote:
This is a game that hinges on the creativity

Wave Serpent
Wave Serpent
Wave Serpent
Wave Serpent

Riptide
Riptide
Riptide

Fateweaver
Herald
Herald
Herald

Jetbike
Jetbike
Jetbike
Jetbike

Sure could've fooled me.

Competitively I can agree with this. Casually is where you see all the cool conversions and where the creativity really shines out though imo..

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:

 Brother SRM wrote:
This is a game that hinges on the creativity

Wave Serpent
Wave Serpent
Wave Serpent
Wave Serpent

Riptide
Riptide
Riptide

Fateweaver
Herald
Herald
Herald

Jetbike
Jetbike
Jetbike
Jetbike

Sure could've fooled me.

I expect you're having a lot of fun thinking about "the hobby"!